Nelson Mandela

[prendrelemick]

He was he only revolutionary leader I can think of who lived up to the hype. He stood for forgivness and reconciliation, and actually delivered the goods when in power. RIP.






ps. if you Americans don't want Obama, can we have him?

[Lokasenna]

A great man to be sure, but a man nonetheless. When he died, I was reminded of the following exchange from Hamlet:

Horatio:
'I saw him once; he was a goodly king.'

Hamlet:
'He was a man, take him for all in all,
I shall not look upon his like again.'


I do find the attempt to quasi-sanctify Mandela slightly worrying - it seems to me to be an attempt to airbrush out the nasty side of history that made him profoundly necessary. Although he advocated love and forgiveness, that was not all he stood for: he represented righteous anger, the power of will, and the often morally questionable but sometimes necessary recourse to violence. Apartheid was cruel and illogical, and the world is better without it, but it must be acknowledged that when diplomatic approached failed the only answer Mandela's UmKhonto we Sizwe had was to turn to terrorism.

His government was reasonable (he was certainly a better president than those before and since), though again we must not overlook his questionably high spending on military equipment, and his willingness to accept donations off of some of the brutal and autocratic dictators on the African continent.

The thing is, I don't hold any of that against Mandela. He never pretended to be perfect, never worked for the aura of sanctity that the world's media gave him - he always talked openly about his flaws, and the necessity of doing unsavoury things for the greater good. It is his humility and honesty which I respected most.

He was a man. We shall not see his like again.

[The Atheist]

He was he only revolutionary leader I can think of who lived up to the hype. He stood for forgivness and reconciliation, and actually delivered the goods when in power. RIP.

There is some disagreement on that, and if you have a look at his legacy in South Africa today, things aren't that great.

Have a read of this piece: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11169600

... and keep in mind it is written by a bloke who more or less laid his life on the line for the anti-apartheid movement, and to support Mandela. Also, Mandela acknowledged him and the anti-Springbok movement as a driving force in the changes.

[The Atheist]

We shall not see his like again.

I think Father George (Pope Francis) might be challenging him in years to come, and Desmond Tutu already compares favourably to Mandela. 35 years ago I suggested it would be Robert Mugabe who led southern Africa out of the ruins of apartheid. Got that wrong!

A funny story on the instant beatification of Nelson Mandela - one of our political parties released a statement saying he could only be compared to three men who ever lived; Jesus, Buddha & Mohammed.

I suggested that they'd be a lot better looking in the 20th century and checking out Mohandas Gandhi and Dr Martin Luther King.

I'm not convinced Mandela deserves to be included alongside that pair, however.

Has anyone sought F W de Klerk's opinion? It must be harder to give up power than accept it.

[prendrelemick]

I agree with all of the above, I hate all this beatification and I especially agree about FW De Klerk, who took an enormous risk in betting everything on Mandela. But look at the the so called Arab spring bloodbath. Without Mandela I think a South Africa would've gone the same way.

He rightly or wrongly became the symbol of reconciliation and unification. Not an easy thing to live up to, but he managed it.

[Delta40]

Robert Mugabe? Lol at least you can admit when you're wrong Atheist! I'm not religious at all and I don't like a person being compared to religious icons. The reason for this is because it raises them above the realm of their own ordinariness - the very thing which makes their achievements so extraordinary. Why give a mere mortal god like status? IMHO it diminishes my capacity to revere them flaws and all.

[zituz]

Rest in Peace, Nelson Mandela
We always miss you...

[kiki1982]

Yes, the beatification of very respectable dead people lately (including Pope John Paul II) is worrying.

I don't suppose Mandela's term was without fault whatsoever, but at least he prevented civil war. From the images (and the slightly biased BBC coverage) it seems likely that would have happened if no-one had been able to calm it down. But I think, on reflection, that it is at least 50/50 due to him AND to the (somewhat hapless) apartheid regime. I mean, if you practically forbid anyone to speak about a leader of some kind who has long been locked up in a far away place, it's inevitable that he's going to become some kind of icon, a kind of deity if you like because he is suffering for you in prison and the longer time goes on, the fewer people there are who still remember the time he was there and the more his person turns into a kind of myth. That was obviously the case because those who were sent to Robbeneiland in the 70s and 80s had only just been born when Mandela was locked up, but he was still an idol of theirs. Indeed a kind of Jesus without him really wanting to be like that or even aspiring to it. The advantage of that was, though, that he was able to tell people to stop fighting and that they did, because whatever Mandela said was right. That was at least an advantage. Had the apartheid regime not handled Mandela's 'resistance' so ignorantly, he had only had his charisma (which is considerable, but is essentially characteristic of all politicians) and not this aura of almost-sanctity.
You couldn't really expect him to sort out the mess of colonialism plus 40-50 years of (social) mismanagement. That's obviously what some people expect from the very first elected president in years, but that's not going to happen (as it hasn't in Egypt, Ukraine, Tunesia, Libya or anywhere else). It's a bit sad that people do not seem to understand that.
At least he prevented the new regime from descending to the 'you have to be punished' creed and didn't waste time on it although that would frankly have been the easiest for him to do.

He has to be respected for that and if any politicians really cared they would think about that instead of proclaiming what a fantastic man he was (or taking selfies at his memorial service for that matter).

[Lokasenna]

Yes, the beatification of very respectable dead people lately (including Pope John Paul II) is worrying.

I don't suppose Mandela's term was without fault whatsoever, but at least he prevented civil war. From the images (and the slightly biased BBC coverage) it seems likely that would have happened if no-one had been able to calm it down. But I think, on reflection, that it is at least 50/50 due to him AND to the (somewhat hapless) apartheid regime. I mean, if you practically forbid anyone to speak about a leader of some kind who has long been locked up in a far away place, it's inevitable that he's going to become some kind of icon, a kind of deity if you like because he is suffering for you in prison and the longer time goes on, the fewer people there are who still remember the time he was there and the more his person turns into a kind of myth. That was obviously the case because those who were sent to Robbeneiland in the 70s and 80s had only just been born when Mandela was locked up, but he was still an idol of theirs. Indeed a kind of Jesus without him really wanting to be like that or even aspiring to it. The advantage of that was, though, that he was able to tell people to stop fighting and that they did, because whatever Mandela said was right. That was at least an advantage. Had the apartheid regime not handled Mandela's 'resistance' so ignorantly, he had only had his charisma (which is considerable, but is essentially characteristic of all politicians) and not this aura of almost-sanctity.
You couldn't really expect him to sort out the mess of colonialism plus 40-50 years of (social) mismanagement. That's obviously what some people expect from the very first elected president in years, but that's not going to happen (as it hasn't in Egypt, Ukraine, Tunesia, Libya or anywhere else). It's a bit sad that people do not seem to understand that.
At least he prevented the new regime from descending to the 'you have to be punished' creed and didn't waste time on it although that would frankly have been the easiest for him to do.

He has to be respected for that and if any politicians really cared they would think about that instead of proclaiming what a fantastic man he was (or taking selfies at his memorial service for that matter).

True. People tend to forget about F. W. de Clerk's role in ending apartheid...

[prendrelemick]

FW de Clerk shared the Nobel prize with Mandela and I think history will and does recognise his considerable role in ending apartheid. But Mandela was the symbol and the focus of the Worldwide pressure that forced De Clerks hand. Perhaps it was an accident of history, but cometh the hour cometh the man.

Like Kiki, I just think that with anyone else, it would've all gone horribly wrong (and might still, now he is gone.)

[Lokasenna]

FW de Clerk shared the Nobel prize with Mandela and I think history will and does recognise his considerable role in ending apartheid. But Mandela was the symbol and the focus of the Worldwide pressure that forced De Clerks hand. Perhaps it was an accident of history, but cometh the hour cometh the man.

Like Kiki, I just think that with anyone else, it would've all gone horribly wrong (and might still, now he is gone.)

Well, Zuma isn't exactly covering himself in glory... not to mention the claims that keep emerging about anti-white discrimination in parts of SA...

I was also troubled to hear on the radio that apparently Archbishop Tutu's house was burgled whilst he was addressing the crowds at the Mandela memorial service. That's rather terrible. On the radio, they were comparing it with the day Mandela was released, when apparently there was not a single recorded crime anywhere is SA for the whole day.

[synodbio]

A leader of both peaceful protests and armed resistance against the white minority’s oppressive regime in a racially divided South Africa.

[Anaya Roy]

The world knows Nelson Mandela as a man who forever changed the course of modern history and who will surely continue to leave his mark long after his death.
Let His Soul Rest in Peace