Group Reading: The Year of the Flood by Atwood

[Scheherazade]

If you would like to join us reading The Year of the Flood by Atwood get your copies ready by November 13th!

This is the second book in Atwood's trilogy that starts with Oryx and Crake; however, it can be read independently as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year_of_the_Flood

[Dark Muse]

I am actually reading Oryx and Crake right now. I don't know if I will be able to fit A Year of the Flood into my reading this month, but I will see what I can do.

[mona amon]

I used to read a lot of Margret Atwood, and I've read Oryx, so I think I'll join.

What is a group reading and how is it different from the book club?

[Dark Muse]

This difference between Group Readings and Book Club books is that Book Club books are voted on, but any member can post any book as a Group Read if they want to try and stimulate a discussion within the LitNet community on that book.

[TheFifthElement]

I'm in!

[Scheherazade]

Excellent! Glad you'll all be taking part!

I am hoping to start tonight.

[Stuart Bathgate]

I'm going to start it on the bus to town in an hour.

[Scheherazade]

I'm going to start it on the bus to town in an hour.Glad you can join us, Stuart!

Welcome to the Forum! :)

[Rob Verchick]

I'm in. I've asked a few friends to join too.

[Drew Jacobus]

Do we read together and discuss on this thread? I'm new :) Any specific page target per day?

I'm looking forward to getting started!

[Scheherazade]

Welcome to the Forum!

Everyone reads at their own pace but we use this thread to share and discuss views.

Read the first chapters while having lunch. Thought Toby was a guy. A gender play?

[SCJones]

Hello! I'm Shana -- friends with Rob Verchick above. Hope to start reading today.

[kinokage]

I'm in! I've just found this forum, but it sounds like fun. I'm a former comp-lit major who now can't read anything longer than 140 characters, so I welcome the chance to cut into something meatier. Book is in hand.

[Scheherazade]

Looking forward to reading your 140-character insights, Kino. Welcome to the Forum! :)

[bws1703]

I think I got it.....

[Rob Verchick]

I'm just starting TYOTF. I've read Oryx & Crake, and teach it in my classes on disaster policy. I'm new to on-line book clubs, so bear with me.

[Scheherazade]

For those who are interested, you can download the app Forum Runner for easier access. :)

Please do not hesitate to PM me if you have any questions regarding the Forum.




I have finished the section titled, "Creation Day" (57/437).

SPOILER ALERT!

For those of you who have also read Oryx and Crake, Snowman also attended Toby's college, Martha Graham Academy, didn't he? I wonder if they knew each other while there.

I am a little disappointed particularly with Toby's history so far... I found it all very predictable and ordinary. Just as I was thinking, "All she needs is some kind of sexual harassment to complete the deal", that happened as well. Hoping that it will pick it up; otherwise, it is a big let-down.

[Rob Verchick]

I agree that Toby's story is a little flat. What I do like is Atwood's lyrical writing and the cynical attitude she layers beneath everything. That's the voice in O&C too, and it's hard to maintain, but it works. I like also the different stories popping up in the beginning--"multi-vocal" as the lit students might say. Reminds me slightly of Absolam! Absolam! Where you say to yourself, "Who is this speaking. What's their relationship to the story? Where are we going?" Good questions after a chaotic event like the Flood.

[mona amon]

I have finished the section titled, "Creation Day" (57/437).

SPOILER ALERT!

For those of you who have also read Oryx and Crake, Snowman also attended Toby's college, Martha Graham Academy, didn't he? I wonder if they knew each other while there.

I am a little disappointed particularly with Toby's history so far... I found it all very predictable and ordinary. Just as I was thinking, "All she needs is some kind of sexual harassment to complete the deal", that happened as well. Hoping that it will pick it up; otherwise, it is a big let-down.

So I wonder if 'the Flood' is the same disaster that happened in the other book.

When I read an Atwood book I'm usually alternating between "Wow, that's brilliant!" and "Yawn, tell me something new." So far the brilliance is a little thin on the ground, but it is still quite interesting, and as Rob Verchick says, I want to see what happens next.

[Stuart Bathgate]

If you've read a fair amount of science fiction you might find Atwood's vision of life after the apocalypse a bit unoriginal, which is what I felt when I started Oryx and Crake last year. But in that book and in The Year of the Flood (so far - I'm on page 36) it's the quality of her writing and characterisation that draw you in. In other words, exactly the qualities that are missing from a lot of genre SF.

CorpSeCorps is an annoying word because I don't know how to pronounce it. Corp Sea Core?

But that's a very minor quibble. After just a couple of pages I felt totally enthusiastic about reading this. It's sedately paced but with enough insight in each sentence to keep you going.

Oh, and like Rob I've never done an online book discussion before so if I say too much please feel free to shut me up.

First Atwood book I read was Alias Grace and I loved that. The Handmaid's Tale was a bit spoiled by seeing the film first. The Robber Bride and Cat's Eye are also pretty good, and I'd say I like those two and Grace more than the SF of hers that I've read.

[Scheherazade]

I am on my phone so I will post without quoting.

I have just started the "The Festival of Arks" section (100/437) and I have to disagree that Atwood's characters are well-developed. I find them rather flat, almost immaturely so, for an author of Atwood's calibre. So far Atwood, in my readerly opinion, does little more than "tell, tell, tell" -as opposed to the old adage, "show, not tell"-, which seems like a rather ordinary, predictable story.

As Mona suggests, Atwood's experience as a writer helps keep the story afloat as she eases the yarn slowly but I know she's done better. Very unwillingly, I am inclined to compare this book to the likes of teenage literary lollipops like "The Messenger" and such.

I agree with Stuart's comment that it might have something to do with one's exposure to sci-fi genre in general but so far I have found little to be excited about in this book overall, not simply in terms of genre.

How does everyone else feel about Adam One's lectures on environmental and religious issues?

[Rob Verchick]

CorpSeCorps is a brilliant (I think) poly-pun. A student showed me. It is meant to be short for "Corporate Security Corps," since it's a private force, I think. But it is a kind of visual pun, if you separate the words: CorpSe Corps. That's a downer. But in French, it's darkly hopeful, as in "Corps Secours," which roughly means "aid" or "emergency" team.

[Scheherazade]

Oh, and like Rob I've never done an online book discussion before so if I say too much please feel free to shut me up.

First Atwood book I read was Alias Grace and I loved that. The Handmaid's Tale was a bit spoiled by seeing the film first. The Robber Bride and Cat's Eye are also pretty good, and I'd say I like those two and Grace more than the SF of hers that I've read.We are looking forward to reading your thoughts, Stuart :)

I have read only The Handmaid's Tale and Oryx and Crake before this one and so far it has been a downward curve in my Atwood-experience. Considering reading Penelopiad next year as part of the Literary Spin-Offs Challenge: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?76255-2014-The-Year-of-Literary-Spin-offs!&p=1245153#post1245153


CorpSeCorps is a brilliant (I think) poly-pun. A student showed me. It is meant to be short for "Corporate Security Corps," since it's a private force, I think. But it is a kind of visual pun, if you separate the words: CorpSe Corps. That's a downer. But in French, it's darkly hopeful, as in "Corps Secours," which roughly means "aid" or "emergency" team.I could see the Corpse-Corps but didn't know the French reference. Interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[LCM22]

I'm in . . . my favorite author . . .

[Rob Verchick]

So far Toby's a bore. But I like the developing friendship between Ren and Amanda. Actually, Amanda is the most interesting character to me so far.

[Scheherazade]

So far Toby's a bore. But I like the developing friendship between Ren and Amanda. Actually, Amanda is the most interesting character to me so far.Yes, she seems interesting and I want to see where her relationship with Zeb will go.

I cannot help but wonder if Atwood purposefully concentrating on female characters in this book while "Oryx and Crake" was evolving around male characters.

Is Pilar's comment about mushrooms a foreshadowing?

Regarding the Flood... If we assume that it is the disaster Crake unleashed, how come the Gardeners are also affected? I assume they weren't taking those health supplements.

Also, do you think Adam One or Zeb is someone known to us? Like Crake himself? I know it is a far fetched idea but...

[Stuart Bathgate]

So far Toby's a bore. But I like the developing friendship between Ren and Amanda. Actually, Amanda is the most interesting character to me so far.

On Chapter 19 now.

I agree with Rob, Amanda's wiliness and resourcefulness make her more interesting. Although Toby is older than Ren, if you dip into a passage at random it's hard to tell which one is narrating or being talked about.
So I partly take it back about the characters being well-rounded, but at least in the case of both Toby and Ren there is that awareness there of people and all the mean little tricks they can get up to. Which is a bit like Cat's Eye and its look back to bullying at schools in Canada in the '40s or '50s.

Adam One is a sanctimonious bore, and reading his recitations is tedious, even if Atwood throws in some humour at his expense.

What are violet biolets? Purple cows like in that ad for Swiss chocolate we used to get in the UK?

[mona amon]

Violet biolets - I thought they were potties of some sort. Hope I'm not completely off the mark. :)

[Scheherazade]

Violet biolets - I thought they were potties of some sort. Hope I'm not completely off the mark. :) Not at all!

http://www.ehow.com/list_6957287_common-problems-biolet-toilets.html

[mona amon]

Not at all!

http://www.ehow.com/list_6957287_common-problems-biolet-toilets.html

Yikes! I always try to be as eco-friendly as possible, but this is strictly for the truly dedicated! :D


On Chapter 19 now.

I agree with Rob, Amanda's wiliness and resourcefulness make her more interesting. Although Toby is older than Ren, if you dip into a passage at random it's hard to tell which one is narrating or being talked about.
So I partly take it back about the characters being well-rounded, but at least in the case of both Toby and Ren there is that awareness there of people and all the mean little tricks they can get up to. Which is a bit like Cat's Eye and its look back to bullying at schools in Canada in the '40s or '50s.

Adam One is a sanctimonious bore, and reading his recitations is tedious, even if Atwood throws in some humour at his expense.

I find Toby interesting, or at least her situation is, and the way she handles it. She has this ability to adapt so well to her circumstances (the peaceful but drab life of a Gardener, her complete solitude after the Flood) with a lack of rebelliousness that most of us will find dull, but it keeps her alive and out of the 'fallow' state, so can be counted as a strength.

Adam One - I enjoy his chapters because of the humour!

[Rob Verchick]

Like Mona, I enjoy hearing from Adam One. I think it's interesting to see how Christian texts and values can be reshaped into eco-spiritualism, just as they have been re-shaped into all kinds of social agendas (good, bad, and neutral). The Handmaid's Tale showed us a scary fascist, misogynist version of Christianity. Here we see one for hippy-dippy eco-warriors. There is fun to be made of this, but some of the sentiments and underlying values are serious and deep. I liked Adam One's take on Noah's flood, for instance, and the point he makes about God's convenant with nonhuman beings. Never thought of it that way. And the hymn likening one's body (a temple?) to an ark (as in boat, as in "ark of the covenant" too?) struck me as profound. We carry our genes everywhere, don't we? And with them the code of life.

I struggle with the issue of character development, not just here, but in most of the fiction I read. The modern novel has taught us to value characters, round and deep. But the priority on full characterization is relatively new. Flat characters abound in the Bible, Chaucer, nearly all satire, genre fiction, Dickens, etc, etc. What Atwood is generally very good at is writing satire with rounder characters. Offred in Handmaid's Tale is rounder, (at least to me) than Orwell's Winston Smith, although that doesn't settle the question of which is the more successful literary work (and, no, I don't think we have to choose). So, if we have flatter characters in TYOTF, what does that mean? Is the book not as successful as art? I don't know, to tell you the truth. What may make up for the deficit in character development (assuming there is one) are the wonderful spiritual/philosophical moments we see in the chapters of Adam One, assuming you like those chapters. What do you all think?

[Stuart Bathgate]

(At end of Chapter 34 now).

I agree that some of the values of God's Gardeners are laudable, but there is a menacing tone of authoritarianism about their puritanical approach. And the humour is Atwood's as opposed to being intended as part of Adam One's character, isn't it?

Only a year since I read Oryx and Crake, but I can't remember enough about it to be sure how The Year of the Flood fits in. We've just been reintroduced to one of the characters from O & C and I'm not entirely sure how old they're meant to be here.


Re characterisation: agreed, in the traditional middle-class novel, character development is often overvalued. And compared to much SF, the main characters in TYOTF are more aware, so I don't feel there's any real deficit there. It's not Middlemarch (thankfully).

I think the main reason I like this and most other books by Atwood is that it's entertaining and quite thought-provoking. Though I wonder if you have to have a broad agreement with her critique of society before finding her entertaining.

[Scheherazade]

What enjoyed about Adam One's chapters is that they helped me get a Christian view (not being familiar with its teachings myself) and, like Rob points out, it is interesting to see how the same doctrine can be used to make different (and possibly contradicting) views; i.e., in The Handmaid's Tale and TYOTF. What I thought made these chapters less-notable was the pontification. The preachy tone of Adam makes it difficult to take him seriously. Was that Atwood's aim? To present him as a fanatically devoted environmentalist who would be disregarded due to the passion he expressed his views? If so, great job! If, on the other hand, she was trying to "spread the message", I feel it failed.

One thing I am curious about is this: It is emphasised that if a human being is consumed by another animal, they would be joining the protein chain. Why can't the same be true for human beings consuming animals? Because of risk of extinction?

I think it is worthwhile to consider briefly what a novelist's job is before we can explore whether having characters lacking development takes away from a novel's worth. I believe a novelist's first responsibility is to tell stories in an engaging manner, hopefully - though I admit that we can discuss what makes a novel engaging for hours. What makes a novelist stand out is their ability to entwine philosophical ideas into these stories, I feel... Telling a story to present a point or a different angle, without which reading would be a futile exercise. And I don't think it is possible to achieve this by interjecting short, sermon-like chapters, which is what Atwood seems to have opted to do.

While reading these stories, I would also like to see that the characters involved are believable and, dare I say, interesting. Unfortunately, in my opinion, TYOTF lacks these believable and interesting characters. Like Mona mentions, Toby offered some kind of hope because she was strong and independent; however, even that done in a half-hearted way. After reading for 500 pages, I don't feel like I have got to know any of the characters genuinely because they were talking about the most terrible, sensitive, life-changing experiences as if they were citing yesterday's news headings. At the risk of making use of a worn-out cliché, I found them to be cardboard cut outs. Toby comes face to face with the man who haunts her all her life and kills him with mushrooms (what a let down that was, by the way). No worries. Ren sees her friend dangling from a trapeze with a bottle stuck in her. Oh, well.

The novel, over all, seems to be filled with stereotypical characters doing what is expected of them. Absent-minded scientists; jealous girlfriends; mean abusive bosses; popular girls; selfish corporate wives... What's more, they come together through an incredible series of coincidences. Amanda ends up dating Ren's high school crush, who turns out to be "the love of her life", Jimmy shares a flat with Ren's bitter childhood friend, Ren happens to be in isolation when all happens and Amanda comes to save her just in time!

Despite all these drawbacks, Atwood still manages to keep her story going owing to the well-paced narrative and clever structure of the novel... And just for that, I might still give MaddAddam a try in couple of months' time!

[mona amon]

I've come to the part where Toby becomes an Eve, they 'compost' Pilar, and Adam One gives his April Fish day message, ie. about half way through.


What enjoyed about Adam One's chapters is that they helped me get a Christian view (not being familiar with its teachings myself) and, like Rob points out, it is interesting to see how the same doctrine can be used to make different (and possibly contradicting) views; i.e., in The Handmaid's Tale and TYOTF. What I thought made these chapters less-notable was the pontification. The preachy tone of Adam makes it difficult to take him seriously. Was that Atwood's aim? To present him as a fanatically devoted environmentalist who would be disregarded due to the passion he expressed his views? If so, great job! If, on the other hand, she was trying to "spread the message", I feel it failed.

One thing I am curious about is this: It is emphasised that if a human being is consumed by another animal, they would be joining the protein chain. Why can't the same be true for human beings consuming animals? Because of risk of extinction?

I think it is worthwhile to consider briefly what a novelist's job is before we can explore whether having characters lacking development takes away from a novel's worth. I believe a novelist's first responsibility is to tell stories in an engaging manner, hopefully - though I admit that we can discuss what makes a novel engaging for hours. What makes a novelist stand out is their ability to entwine philosophical ideas into these stories, I feel... Telling a story to present a point or a different angle, without which reading would be a futile exercise. And I don't think it is possible to achieve this by interjecting short, sermon-like chapters, which is what Atwood seems to have opted to do.

Yes, I don't think we're meant to take Adam One's preaching seriously at all, but at this stage of the book I'm wondering what is actually going on. Does A1 take his own message seriously? Is he sincere? Is there some hidden agenda? When Toby becomes an Eve, we discover along with her that they own a laptop and have secret contacts and there's probably more to these crazy but benign fuddy-duddies than we and Toby first thought.

Flat characters - for me flat characters, clichéd plot lines, telling instead of showing, absolutely anything goes, as long as the story 'works'. So far I'm not sure whether this book is going to work or not.

[Rob Verchick]

Flat characters - for me flat characters, clichéd plot lines, telling instead of showing, absolutely anything goes, as long as the story 'works'. So far I'm not sure whether this book is going to work or not.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

[TheFifthElement]

I'm about 100 pages in and not hugely impressed. As Scher observed, there's a lot of tell, tell, tell in the structure of the story and I'm really waiting for the point when Atwood allows me to think for myself, just a little. I get the impression that she got quite carried away with playing word salad and that the story is loosely structured around these very clever and momentarily entertaining ideas but that it is not enough to carry the story forward. Other writers have attempted the same kind of thing but done it a whole lot better (I'm thinking Cloud Atlas here...or anything by David Mitchell actually....particularly the Sloosha's Crossin' and An Oracle of Somni 451 portions) and without the flashy, self-present 'look how clever I am' overtones that flow through this particular work. It's almost as though she's been so busy constructing the world - AnooYoo, CorpSeCorps, chicken farmers, etc - and the language / concepts that go with it, that she forgot to construct a story. None of the characters are particularly interesting either, the closest to piquing my interest so far are Zeb (Mad Addam?) and Ren and that's only barely.

So far, so disappointed. Is it worth reading any more? Can I move on to Lessing guilt-free?

[Scheherazade]

Before TYOTF, I read "Cat's Cradle" and now I'm reading "The Time Machine" and I agree with you that, Fifth, what Atwood struggles to explore has already been done by various authors with much more effectively times and times again.

I felt the book is at least 200 pages too long. "Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing..." ;)

[Rob Verchick]

Ouch!

[mona amon]

**Contains SPOILERS for Oryx and Crake and TYOF**

Finished! It wasn't that bad actually, or maybe I just enjoyed the experience of reading along with you guys! The conspiracy theory or special Atwood twist that I was hoping for never materialized so I was a bit disappointed but the last part spoken by A1 was kind of good, I thought. Grr...why didn't Toby kill those criminals. They're sure to go on the rampage and cause harm to the poor Crakers in the next book.

On the whole I liked Oryx and Crake better than this, and The Handmaid's Tale much better than O and C. I haven't read much dystopian literature, except for 1984 (which I thought was really good). I think the ending of O and C was very good - showing that Crake's plan of wiping out all humanity hadn't quite succeeded, and that the Crakers, like all creations, were not quite what the creator intended, but she's messed all that up by writing sequels instead of leaving it to our imagination.

TheFifth, for an Atwood novel it was disappointing, but I never felt like giving up. I was always eager to know what happened next, and I think like Scher I'll be reading MadAdam for the sake of completion.

[Scheherazade]

I think I can say that I have read my fair of dystopias, which might be one reason that this one has failed so miserably for me. As a dedicated fan of Atwood, I feel disheartened.


... I think like Scher I'll be reading MadAdam for the sake of completion.Would January suit you? :)


Here is a poem by Atwood I love:

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16789

[Stuart Bathgate]

Just finished it. Left feeling I want to read Maddadam now, because the ending of TYOTF is so unsatisfying.

I think the thing that makes Ren and Toby sympathetic as characters, despite the fact that they're thinly drawn, is their honesty. Their natural tendency is to remain detached, slightly outside of groups. In that sense, they see things through Atwood's eyes.

On a couple of days I really enjoyed the book and on others I thought 'I can't be arsed reading this'. This reaction may be subjective, but I also think it's a sign it was too long. As Scheherazade said, by about 200 pages. It's loose and rambling, which is fine when you're in the mood for that kind of thing.

I had hoped Blanco and his evil friend would be killed by the end. They deserved it, and that would have made for a more challenging conclusion to the book.

[mona amon]

Blanco was the one who was killed. It's the other two Painballers who are alive in the end. I agree with you about Toby. Although she's only lightly sketched in, she's still a convincing character. Ren, I don't know - I think her character needs to be fleshed out a lot more. Maybe in the next book...


Would January suit you? :)

January will be just fine. Enough time to take a break and read other things, but (hopefully) not long enough to forget everything in this book. :)

[SCJones]

Hi all -- So sorry to be late to the conversation. Just finished. I should have joined in earlier because it makes me feel better about all the things I felt about the book -- flat characters, cliched plot, too many coincidences (i.e., both Amanda and Ren date Jimmy, Blanco keeps surviving Painball and finds Toby again and again -- really?). Oryx & Crake was much better. TYOTF felt like a watered-down Cloud Atlas, and Cloud Atlas was really fantastic -- had all the wordplay and overlapping histories, but full of action and memorable characters. And I'm really tired of what seems like all the women being sexually harassed/abused/exploited -- Atwood seemed to be taking some short-cuts with the reader to generate sympathy, or something. With that said, some of it was great. Like Rob, I found the idea that God had a covenant with all creatures, as well as his very interesting reading of Gen. 9:2, to be very provocative and original. ("This is not God telling Man that he has a right to destroy all the Animals, as some claim. Instead it is a warning to God's beloved Creatures: Beware of Man, and of his evil heart." Ouch!) And there was some other good stuff -- that Jimmy's mother, who seemed like a hero in O&C, if I remember right, was simply giving out the same old information and thought she was more courageous and important than she really was. I liked that Toby was annoyed with her. That all rang true to me.

[SCJones]

Re: the questions whether she took the Gardeners seriously or not....Did anyone else read the acknowledgments, where it looks like music has been composed for the hymns and recorded? And that anyone wanting to use them for "devotional or environmental purposes" can download them from a website? Just reading that made me rethink what she was doing with the whole Gardener thing. Yes, she's making fun of them, but I think she's kind of with them, too....