exploiting your faith

[Chardata]

When do you know it is the oppropiate time and when do you know when you've gone too far. Do you think it is hard to reach teens and how good do you think confrences like Teen Life and Dare to Share really are? I recomend Mind Games...a how to prove the bible is accurate by using scientific means...

[imthefoolonthehill]

uh... your question doesn't make sense... your post doesn't make sense... are you even asking a question? If so, is it rhetorical? Are you simply advertising for something?

[Shea]

I didn't understand the purpose of your post either, but I am very familiar with Life Teen, if that's what you meant by Teen Life. It's a nationwide Catholic youth group that pretty much softens religious doctrine to make teens "feel good" about being Catholic.

When I was part of it, they did a very good job of bringing teens together as a group and teach religious practices that had no foundation and introduced practices that I didn't even know that the Catholic church approved of. Such as "speaking in tongues." After they grew too old for the organization, most of the group that I was with quit going to church all together, some became athiests, still others got involved with drugs and crime.

I am not familiar with the other groups that you mentioned. But from my observation, many of these teen groups are started because of poor parental guidance. Think about it, parents are role models for their children, right? If a parent really takes no interest in their own religion and just goes through the motions, what do they expect their children to do? Or worse yet, suppose the parent is very invovled in the church but leads a hypocritical lifestyle? That would be confusing to any child! So if you stick all these confused children into religious teen groups together, and then teach them about a religion that their parents don't really follow in the first place, wouldn't that just be more confusing?

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that there are wonderful groups that really do help teens. But these are my own observations. Incedentally, though I come from a household of two different religious beliefs, I also was raised by a family who took an active interest in my life.

[waxmephilosophical]

I don't think it's hard to reach teens if they're taught the Bible in a straight-forward manner, and it is not watered down. I like people to step on my toes sometimes and say, "this is how it is, and here's why". There are some aspects of the Bible that are a little tough to deal with, but teens still need to know about them in a direct manner, as they are, and not changed to make them feel more comfortable. It really bothers me when someone asks a question and the leader/teacher dances around the subject and gets squeamish, as if teenagers aren't old enough to hear the truth and make their own decisions on it. Now, some programs may be good for younger children, for the sole purpose of putting things in their terms that may otherwise be a little over their heads. However, I feel that it is a good thing for youth in a church to actually participate in activities with the entire congregation. I've been in churches where the youth ministry functioned almost as an entirely different entity, never interacting with the church body as a whole. I think it's important for kids to see adult christians "in action", if you will, serving as examples for them. Spritiual maturation will come much more easily that way, and will lessen the chance that kids, as Shea mentioned, will stop going to church entirely after their special, isolated programs end.

[RoseBud]

Wax,

I can scarcely find anything you said that I could argue against. Several people who spend a chunk of their time with teens say the same -- directness is cool. I'm left "picking on" your sig line!

I've taken to saying that an educated person is always looking for opportunities to continue that education. I'm fed up with all the people who think their alphabet soup is the same as an education! Anyone who knows anything realizes there is a lot more to learn, and wants to learn as much of it as possible!

Anyone who thinks they know it all, doesn't know enough.

Chardata, if you are asking, "When is the appropriate time to teach teensthis or that Bible principle?", I'd have to say the same as I would if you were asking about younger kids. Listen to the questions they are asking. They will tell you when they are ready. Listen to the way they ask -- this will tell you what level, and the type of vocabulary to use. Unless you are dealing with kids who have been taught to be ashamed of the thirst for knowledge, they will tell you what, when, how and how much they are ready to learn, if you know how to listen.

[waxmephilosophical]

RoseBud, I think you misread my signature. It simply means that you should be able to listen to other people's views, whether you agree with them or not, and comprehend them. It has to do with having an open mind, not with knowing everything. I didn't get that out of the quote at all, and certainly didn't intend for it to be interpreted that way. And yes, I agree, knowledge is a neverending process. You should never stop seeking to learn more.

[RoseBud]

Wax, please don't take offense.

I don't mean that I disagree. I just put the emphasis in a different place.

In otherwords, I had to nitpick to find anything wrong with your post!

And having started to nitpick, I figured I might just as well follow through and explain why I assign the emphasis differently. I'm sure someone here could profit from that point.

[waxmephilosophical]

Got it :)

[Chardata]

i'm sorry if ppl miss understood me! I ment that it is hard for teens to exploit thier faith and confrences try to help with this idea. If more ppl supported them maybe it wouldn't be so difficult. What are your views on this?! Teen Life is not necessarily Catholic. I attended it and i did not get that feeling and i'm not catholic. Anyway, this is a big topic where i live. I just want to see your views on this! I'm sorry again if ppl miss understood my reasoning!

[waxmephilosophical]

Are you talking about evangelism? Hmmm...Conferences could help in that area, because they tend to get people excited and into spreading God's word. Mind you, I don't mean that teens should rely solely on conferences to "light their fire". They help, but it's whether you keep that excitement for sharing the good news that makes the difference. It's really easy to get all revved up at a youth event, and lose it a week later when you're not in that setting and Christ seems a little more distant. However, I do think it helps to see other teens sharing their faith at events. The more you see it done, the less it seems like it's a job for "other people."

[waxmephilosophical]

I just reread your original post and thought of something else. You mentioned programs that teach scientific proof of the Bible, Christ, etc. I think those are excellent tools for teens. While the ultimate backbone for belief in Christ should be faith, it is understandable to want proof of his existence and of the stories that are in the Bible. Especially if you're trying to teach these things to non-believers, who tend to be skeptic about ideas they haven't been raised with. Scientific proof allows us to have an answer when someone says "But how do I know that really happened?"

[Chardata]

i agree...that is actually the best way to talk to ppl is through scientific proof. That is my opinion. I also think that if other teens encourage one another it helps teens want to exploit thier faith. It's a hard topic but there really isn't much support (or so i've seen) for it. People tell us teens that you need to do this but i rarely see it being done. Also, with other things consuming our lives it makes it even harder. I am really into fantasy and Ren. type stuff and i always find myself struggling to allow my faith to grow. I do agree that faith should be the base of a person's relationship with God but i also think that hard facts help the process and sometimes one needs to be reminded of that. Teens don't always 'see' God. 'specially with the World trying to home-in on physical things...like fads and feel good things. Another thing i think would really help teans is for Christian rock bands like Newsboys, and Skillet to venture out into the secular world like what Jars of Clay, Creed and POD has done. It will encourage and reach more teens that way. In reality this topic is hard and very difficult to address b/c typing or saying and acting or two different things!

[Ickmeister]

I know it's not hard to reach teens, because I am one. I think it is inappropriate to not teach your beliefs at all times. If it is only live as an example as to how you should live.

[Chardata]

i'm a teen also. I find it hard to reach ppl my own age. Yes i do agree that we have to live as examples but sometimes as Christians we make mistakes and we may have to talk about it. Living by example is an excellent way to teach ppl but not everybody knows how to live a Christian life...talking/communicating it to others is the next best thing. 8)

[imthefoolonthehill]

but isn't communication practically worthless if they can plainly see that you aren't 'practicing what you are preaching'

[Chardata]

yes but...you have to talk inorder to get your point across.

[Eloise]

I agree that how you live is the best way to communicate what you believe, to any age group. I don't think making mistakes is too much of a problem, because it shows that christians are really normal, human people, it's not like you're not trying or deliberately preaching one thing while doing another, and I think people can see that. I don't think we really need to initiate the talking particularly, if people ask you what you've been doing on the weekend and you say you went to church, or if you're discussing an ethical issue or something and you explain that you're coming from a christian perspective, they'll know you're a christian. If they want to know more, they'll ask, if they don't then there's no point preaching to them anyway!

Sort of along the lines of the Frances of Assisi quote: 'Preach the gospel, use words if you have to'.

[Gadfly]

There are several issues at play here, as far as I see.

1. How should we live so as to communicate the gospel to youth?
A. By giving scientific answers defending biblical truths
B. By walking our talk.

2. Are youth conferences (dare to share, etc) useful?

1. How should we live so as to communicate the gospel to youth?
A. By giving scientific answers defending biblical truths
Yes - and no. Certainly the Christian faith is reasonable, but I think this approach is backwards. We can't scientifically prove Christianity, and we don't need to. Rather, we should present Christianity and show how everything filters down.
Check out Cornelius Van Til on appologetics. He basically argues this: In their sinful state, people will not recognize biblical truth. It doesn't matter how reasonable you make it sound. They can't see it. Instead, the Holy Spirit of God works in their heart to make them able to believe. Hence, though we should endeavor to make the faith reasonable, it is really up to God.

B. By walking our talk.
Duh. Jesus said "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples: that you love one another." How we live, how we love and how we serve one another is the mark of how the world will know we are from God.

C. The crucial appologetic
Christians are not normal people. If we were, then why would anyone be a Christian? We are the children of God, precious and holy in his sight. We have entered into a life changing relationship with him, and we will never, ever be the same.
Just as John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and many others preached and prayed for, we must preach and pray for repentance. That is how God has always reached the hearts of people, old and young alike.

2. Are youth conferences (dare to share, etc) useful?
As a youth who has been to many youth conferences, I think the answer is mixed. Charles Finney once said that he could convert someone at $2.80 a head (taking into account the cost of a building, musician, etc.). This illustrates that a predictable amount of people will be influenced by such a service. Is there real change?
Well, is the Christian faith real? Does it really, fundamentally change lives? If the answer is yes, then the conferences are not very effective. Most youth attend, are fired up for a few months, and "return to their vommit" as the proverb states.
As I said before, the key to truly reaching souls is to be rooted in repentance, in God's will, in prayer.

[Cancion]

l;'

[gatsbysghost]

Let me begin by saying that I am agnostic. I was once a Christian and certain events occured and I lost my faith. I still read the Bible frequently and I take my son to church. My pastor knows where I stand because I refuse to live a lie. He tries to help and together we search through scripture while I look for answers and hopefully what I lost.

That said, I think trying to make Christianity more palatable to teens by proving it through science could pose a serious threat to their faith if that course is followed very long. Granted, there are some instances in the Bible that can be proven, but the list is short when stacked next to the ones that can't be. The Bible sums it up perfectly with "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen."

That verse is the very fabric of Christianity. How can one prove a miracle?

A clever con-man can be a formidable evangelist when opportunity knocks. Youth rallies are great for pumping up a fire inside; but that fire is easily extinguished as teens return to their everyday lives. If I still prayed, I would, of course, pray for everyone's salvation. And evangelism and conferences are excellent tools for acheiving the goal. But without educating the newly converted in methodically building their relationship with God, you have left the job half done.

Imagine going to the best restaraunt in the world, and having just eaten your appetizer, seeing a roach crawl accross the floor. It would take some great food to make you disregard the roach and wait for the next course. As leaders in the church, it is your responsibility to make sure that each person in the congregation has that kind of relationship with God. Without it, at the first sign of trouble, their appetite will be gone.

[blazeofglory]

Nobody exploits your faiths and it is of course you only who can do it. For only if the wall of your faith is strong some one can shake the root of it.

[Pendragon]

Personally, what I have seen is little effort to reach teens. People seem to think that because they are raised in a church, they will be fine with what is there. No, they won't. People need to take special care for the young people. After all, Jesus told Peter to "feed my lambs" as well as "feed my sheep." This should show that there is a difference between the ones who have maturity and the ones who haven't reached it yet. Some things we have to work on individual basis, and the young mind is different form one that is already set in its ways! :)

[Pendragon]

Nobody exploits your faiths and it is of course you only who can do it. For only if the wall of your faith is strong some one can shake the root of it.
True, Blaze, if one is strong in Faith, no one can shake it. But to someone who is weak in the Faith, others need to help shore him up. If one is trying to make up one's mind, then the way others treat that person will have a profound effect on the choice that person makes. Your attitude towards someone could be what makes their mind up one way or another. If we don't show them something that they desire, they will go where that desire is satisfied. :)

[jgweed]

It seems to me that most teenagers reject any attempt to force propaganda on them or tell them, not how, but WHAT to think. Even those that, at an impressionable age, succumb to this sort of brainwashing, when they reach intellectual maturity will first reject the method, and then the message.

[Pendragon]

It seems to me that most teenagers reject any attempt to force propaganda on them or tell them, not how, but WHAT to think. Even those that, at an impressionable age, succumb to this sort of brainwashing, when they reach intellectual maturity will first reject the method, and then the message.
This is true. We should teach them how to think. The fact is that forced religion is no religion. The person has to make their mind up for themselves. This is true for the young as well as the old. My daughter has quit church. My son goes to a different church than I do. My youngest is still making up his mind. I cannot and will not make it for them. They have been taught to explore things for themselves. I want them to be as I am, but I accept them as they are. This goes for anyone. I don't answer for anyone but me. :) God Bless.

[teleios]

This is true. We should teach them how to think. The fact is that forced religion is no religion. The person has to make their mind up for themselves. This is true for the young as well as the old. My daughter has quit church. My son goes to a different church than I do. My youngest is still making up his mind. I cannot and will not make it for them. They have been taught to explore things for themselves. I want them to be as I am, but I accept them as they are. This goes for anyone. I don't answer for anyone but me. :) God Bless.

I agree with your points most wholeheartedly (with relation to this thread)...

Moreover though, I am impressed with you, personally. I've not met many people who are willing to allow their children to explore their religious views on their own - that takes a lot of courage, trust, and wisdom.

God bless,
Teleios

[Pendragon]

I agree with your points most wholeheartedly (with relation to this thread)...

Moreover though, I am impressed with you, personally. I've not met many people who are willing to allow their children to explore their religious views on their own - that takes a lot of courage, trust, and wisdom.

God bless,
TeleiosWell it took a long time for me to become thus. I was just like others, I felt that it was required to practically force my views upon others. This isn't the fact. We were told to go and preach the gospel to all lands. But telling people what is right and making people do it is two different things. We are to exhort, encourage, and teach, but the individual must make up their own mind. This is what free will is all about. God doesn't take force to make humans worship, and neither should we. Present your case and let them make up their own mind. It gets hard when you think someone is going to be lost. You have to have faith that somehow they will make it. You have to pray yourself...

God Bless,

Pen