The Jail/Prison/Cell Sytem

[cacian]

could they one day become redundant?

[Volya]

No. There will always be rules, and so there will always be rule-breakers.

[cacian]

No. There will always be rules, and so there will always be rule-breakers.

even a prison gets full and the rent must get paid up to keep up the demand. how is one to pay up in order to keep in.
the credit crunch has shut down many mortgaged houses and sent people out into renting accommodation and else. prisons are no different and the government could one day be unable to pay up what it owes.
what then? sent all convict to Australia because a government is unable to keep up the rent? that cannot be done now.

[Volya]

When the government can no longer afford to maintain the justice system then I think we're all f****d anyway.

[cacian]

When the government can no longer afford to maintain the justice system then I think we're all f****d anyway.

I guess that is what private is. it means rent which means arrears which means debt. one way or another it catches up. prison keeping is a big chunk of it.

[Ecurb]

Throughout most of human existance, jails did not exist. Indeed, laws did not exist and governments (as we know them) did not exist. I'll grant that massive increases in population make the regulation of society more dependent on codified rules. However, it's worth pointing out that we humans did not alway have jails,

[cacian]

Throughout most of human existance, jails did not exist. Indeed, laws did not exist and governments (as we know them) did not exist. I'll grant that massive increases in population make the regulation of society more dependent on codified rules. However, it's worth pointing out that we humans did not alway have jails,

so where did we go wrong? or what did we have instead?

[Ecurb]

Humans used to live in small groups. Since they had no writing, there were no written laws. Instead, there were "norms" -- traditional behavioral standards. Based on what we have learned in the last century or two from people who still live in small, hunting and gathering groups, people who transgressed the norms could be expelled from the group (sometimes they might also be killed). As societies grew larger and more complicated, they developed other ways of regulating themselves, both socially and economically. One such method is called "segmentary opposition". If a member of one family transgresses against the member of another family, the families might feud, or got to war with each other. If a member of one clan transgresses against a member of another clan, the clans might feud. The notion that crimes are transgressions against the STATE is a relatively recent one. In Roman law, for example, a murderer did not transgress against the state, but against the family of the murdered person. He could (possibly) ameliorate his transgression by paying a blood debt. In other words, "criminal" cases were treated more like we would treat "civil" cases. Criminal cases are "The State of Oregon against Joe Blow" or "The Crown vs. Bill Billson" in modern society.

I'm not sure we "went wrong". Complex civilizations arose as population grew, especially when inhabitable space was limited (as in river valleys surrounded by deserts, such as the Nile, the Tigris/Euphrates, the Indus, etc.). There are two theories about how complex civilizations evolved in these situations, a "conflict theory" and a "cooperation theory". Both large scale warfare and large scale cooperative irrigation projects developed at about the same time, and archeologists aren't sure which came first. In either case, however, political systems to govern large, diverse groups of people were necessary for either defense or large-scale irrigated farming.

[Delta40]

Well Cacian don't send em to Australia in a boat! Every week more refugees drown off our coast as the press call them a 'scourge on our society' the navy won't answer their calls of distress and the PM has put a gag on journalists reporting to the public so we don't raise an uproar. He's probably right though. After all, who wants to see pictures of dead babies washed up on our shores on the front of the morning newspaper? Makes it difficult to swallow your weet-bix...

[Oedipus]

Well Cacian don't send em to Australia in a boat! Every week more refugees drown off our coast as the press call them a 'scourge on our society' the navy won't answer their calls of distress and the PM has put a gag on journalists reporting to the public so we don't raise an uproar. He's probably right though. After all, who wants to see pictures of dead babies washed up on our shores on the front of the morning newspaper? Makes it difficult to swallow your weet-bix...

Isn't that denying freedom of the press? Well, Murdoch wouldn't let them anyway. God I hate Abbot. Have you heard what he's doing to universities?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Don't send them to Australia. The British did that last time and it ended up being a better country!!

No of course prisons will never become redundant unless the whole system collapses?!

I've heard that each prisoner costs the UK gov £500 per week to keep, but that includes paying for all the X-box 360s and Sky TV, etc, have to keep up the standards.

[Delta40]

Don't send them to Australia. The British did that last time and it ended up being a better country!!

I don't know about that. Seems we haven't lost the criminal touch. The Reserve Bank of Australia has been paying millions of dollars to overseas private agents to try and secure contracts in countries to change their currency to polymer notes. These agents are distributing the money to corrupt pollies (like Nigeria and arms dealers in the Middle East) who promptly bank the dosh in tax haven bank accounts and still the RBA is paying. The Australian Federal Police wont investigate neither will the Australian Securities & Investment Commission. The Whistleblowers are being persecuted while the men at the top are getting promoted. Our new dictator PM Tony Abbot just runs like crazy from the press. There is absolutely no authority to hold the bank accountable for these pay offs.

Meanwhile the richest woman in the world, Gina Rhinehart has been given the go ahead to start destroying the Great Barrier Reef when Abbot lifted the heritage listing so her coal mining company can dump what is known as dredge spoil on top of it. It doesn't matter that the reef is called one of the 7 wonders of the world...

My rant. Prisons here are as humane as any other western prison. Don't bend over in the shower though...

[LitNetIsGreat]

Sounds like there are a lot of frustrations on your side then. Though farcical stuff like that is the norm generally everywhere, same stories, just different detail. You should try living surrounded by Nesbits.

I get the impression, from serious fiscal studies, such as 'Homes in the Sun' or whatever it is called (UK programme where couples decide to either say in the UK or go to Aus) that life in Aus is generally better, but not quite as profitable as it were say 5 or 10 years ago. Generally still a better standard of living though - higher wages (for the same job), better lifestyle work/life balance etc also beach life as opposed to city blues etc. Basic standard of living on the whole seems to be a little better anyway.

In terms of prisons, if I was running for PM one of my major policies would be to build bigger prisons. Seriously it would. It's pretty common knowledge that a vast amount of crime is committed by a relatively small percentage of the population, something like 95% of police time spend dealing with the same 1% of families or something like. Just lock them up. Harsh? Not really when you consider victims.

[Delta40]

Funny you mention that. Last week I put myself smack in the middle of domestic affair. The guy had s machete and was chasing his partner up the laneway next to my house with it. I stopped him and told him if he took a step closer I I'd call the police. The went ballistic of course but at the time I stood my ground while he waved it round swearing and threatening me. He took off saying he was coming back with his mates to run me and my house through.

He was admitted to a psych unit. The police never came to my house.

[cacian]

Don't send them to Australia. The British did that last time and it ended up being a better country!!

No of course prisons will never become redundant unless the whole system collapses?!

I've heard that each prisoner costs the UK gov £500 per week to keep, but that includes paying for all the X-box 360s and Sky TV, etc, have to keep up the standards.
500 to keep one locked in you'd think you would do it differently. use that money in a different way. the spaces the prisons take up is costly and is much needed for housing instead.

[cacian]

Funny you mention that. Last week I put myself smack in the middle of domestic affair. The guy had s machete and was chasing his partner up the laneway next to my house with it. I stopped him and told him if he took a step closer I I'd call the police. The went ballistic of course but at the time I stood my ground while he waved it round swearing and threatening me. He took off saying he was coming back with his mates to run me and my house through.

He was admitted to a psych unit. The police never came to my house.

He had a machete? is that allowed? were you not scared he had one?