Introduction to Christianity.

[grigioverde]

Greetings to everyone, my first thread here, first day too.

As title suggests I'm interested in christianity; its thoughts, objectives, symbolism, historical and cultural significance and key characters: at first I thought to read Bible, Summa Theologiae and other important works but then I realized that I need an introduction, something that will make me familiarize with the topic and so, I came here.

Which book/s could you suggest me?

[Calidore]

The Bible is your introduction. That's where it all started. The NET Bible is free and very heavily annotated: https://bible.org/netbible/

[cafolini]

The book to read is not the one which thinks for you, but the one which makes you think. No book in the world equals the Bible for that. ~ Harper Lee
Harper Lee

[hannah_arendt]

I would start with the bible and then maybe look for essays about it. But the Bible itself is the most important.

[mal4mac]

If you were interested in McDonald's would you only read their advertising? When you get bored with reading the Bible then try:

"The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins
"God is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens
"Breaking the Spell" by Daniel C. Dennett

[grigioverde]

Thanks to everyone.

[Melanie]

I agree with Hannah and caladore...start with the Bible first. That's God's Word as opposed to opinions of others. The NIV (New International Version) is the most popular version. The King James version is next and has been around the longest.

May I suggest you start in the New Testament with the "John" (not "First John"...that one comes a little later) and read up to Revelations. Come back to Revelations after you've gone back to read Matthew, Mark, and Luke...and after you've read the Old Testament. When reading the Old Testament don't get bogged down in long listings of genealogies. Just skim over those quickly.

Before reading, I like to pray and ask God for discernment and for His truth to be revealed. God is not the author of confusion but you may have questions. Ask Christians and not Atheists. And beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. And beware of false prophets.

[Calidore]

God is not the author of confusion but you may have questions. Ask Christians and not Atheists.

I'd disagree with this part. If you want a well-rounded education, then ask everyone.

[Melanie]

...Before reading, I like to pray and ask God for discernment and for His truth to be revealed. God is not the author of confusion but you may have questions. Ask Christians and not Atheists. And beware of sheep in wolves clothing. And beware of false prophets.
Calidore, I believe you took my statement out of context unless you really do believe that when you want questions answered about the Bible then you should ask people who are false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing, and people who feel it's all hogwash.

[Calidore]

Calidore, I believe you took my statement out of context unless you really do believe that when you want questions answered about the Bible then you should ask people who are false prophets, sheep in wolves clothing, and people who feel it's all hogwash.

Not out of context; I just quoted what I was replying to. "False prophets" and "sheep in wolves clothing" (shouldn't the latter be the other way around?) can and have been applied by anyone to anyone. They're completely arbitrary and subjective opinions and thus have no educational value at all.

The OP wrote:


I'm interested in christianity; its thoughts, objectives, symbolism, historical and cultural significance and key characters: at first I thought to read Bible, Summa Theologiae and other important works but then I realized that I need an introduction, something that will make me familiarize with the topic

He's a non-Christian looking to learn about the religion. The best way to get a well-rounded education is to talk to people on all sides of the fence--in this case, from believers who can teach from the inside and from non-believers who can teach from a mythological and historical perspective.

[Melanie]

Calidore, grigioverde did not say he was "looking to learn about "religion". He said, "I'm interested in christianity, it's thoughts, symbolism..." etc. Not an atheist's thoughts, but Christianity's thoughts. We have to really listen to what others and saying and not what we want to talk about.

[cafolini]

Calidore, grigioverde did not say he was "looking to learn about "religion". He said, "I'm interested in christianity, it's thoughts, symbolism..." etc. Not an atheist's thoughts, but Christianity's thoughts. We have to really listen to what others and saying and not what we want to talk about.

Good points, Melanie. We welcome anyone to read all books of the Bible and think what could have produce it, when and where.

[Calidore]

Calidore, grigioverde did not say he was "looking to learn about "religion". He said, "I'm interested in christianity, it's thoughts, symbolism..." etc. Not an atheist's thoughts, but Christianity's thoughts. We have to really listen to what others and saying and not what we want to talk about.

Hm. Looks like we both read that differently. Hopefully he'll post a clarification.

[grigioverde]

I'm sorry for not being very intelligible. Maybe my intent is more near to what Melanie said: I'm interested in a "purely" way even if this doesn't really mean that I'm closed to other points of view but those will eventually come later.

Anyway I'm a she. Just for accuracy.

[Melanie]

Thank you cafolini.

I'm sorry, grigioverde. I knew you were a female by your avatar...but got a little sidetracked. Welcome.
I see you're Italian. Below is a link that is a song, partially in italian. Just click on the link.
It's completely safe. I've been to it. I've included the lyrics just in case you miss the song.

I'm a Christian and I don't look at christianity as "religion" but rather as a "relationship" with God.

Christianity is different from every religion in that all other religions (including Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc) state that you must earn the right to be reconciled with God. For those religions it is by what you do in this life (good deeds or bad deeds) that determines your eternal destiny. Christianity is completely different from this. Christianity is not based on works (or earning your way to heaven) but rather, eternal life is a gift from God just for the asking. Just for admitting that we're not perfect and are in need of a savior. God loves us so much he had Jesus Christ pay the punishment for our sins so we could be worthy for the gift of eternal life. If you have faith and believe that then God will forgive you. You will never be alone after that. "Good deeds" done by Christians are a result of their faith, not because they are earning their way to heaven.

“The difference between Christianity and every other faith in the world is that all other religions are about man trying to reach up to God. Christianity is about God reaching down to man.” ~Patton

I hope my post #7 was helpful :)

"The Prayer" sung by 7 yr old Rhema Marvanne
click on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRvcW1T3e-s

The Prayer
I pray you’ll be our eyes
And watch us where we go
And help us to be wise
In times when we don’t know

Let this be our prayer
As we go our way
Lead us to a place
Guide us with your grace
To a place where we’ll be safe
La luce che to dai

I pray we’ll find your light
Nel cuore restero
And hold it in our hearts
A ricordarchi che
When stars go out each night
L’eterna stella sei
Nella mia preghiera
Let this be our prayer
Quanta fede c’e
When shadows fill our day
Lead us to a place
Guide us with your grace

Give us faith so we’ll be safe.
Sognamo un mondo senza piu violenza

Un mondo di giustizia e di speranza
Ognuno dia la mano al suo vicino
Simbolo di pace e di fraternita

La forza che ci dai
We ask that life be kind
E’il desiderio che
And watch us from above
Ognuno trovi amore
We hope each soul will find
Intorno e dentro a se
Another soul to love

Let this be our prayer
Let this be our prayer
Just like every child
Just like every child

Needs to find a place,
Guide us with your grace
Give us faith so we’ll be safe
E la fede che
Hai acceso in noi
Sento che ci salvera

[mal4mac]

Calidore, grigioverde did not say he was "looking to learn about "religion". He said, "I'm interested in christianity, it's thoughts, symbolism..." etc. Not an atheist's thoughts, but Christianity's thoughts. We have to really listen to what others and saying and not what we want to talk about.

The atheist authors I mentioned present Christian thoughts - in order to defeat them, certainly, but, still, they present them! The OP didn't specify "only Christian authors". Surely it's a good thing to read the people who oppose your thoughts? How else will your thoughts be properly tested?

[mal4mac]

Christianity is different from every religion in that all other religions (including Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism) state that you must earn the right to be reconciled with God.


Buddhists don't believe in a God; if you are going to attempt comparisons between Christianity and other religions please learn something about those other religions.

[Melanie]

...The OP didn't specify "only Christian authors". Surely it's a good thing to read the people who oppose your thoughts? How else will your thoughts be properly tested?

Again, here is the request by the creator of this thread:


...Maybe my intent is more near to what Melanie said: I'm interested in a "purely" way even if this doesn't really mean that I'm closed to other points of view but those will eventually come later.

It's her thread...it's her show. She says, "later" for other points of view. So, try to be patient. She wants it to receive "purely" Christian answers for now. So as the rabid wolves circle her thread, anxious to rip it to shreds and bone-pick :hand:, please respect her requests. Maybe her next thread will be for the naysayers to join in. Can't we have one thread in the Religious Forum for Christians to discuss our faith as a Christian community?...without the constant battle?

mal4mac, you didn't put my comment in quotes so it looks like it came from you.
Here it is quoted correctly:


I'm a Christian and I don't look at christianity as "religion" but rather as a "relationship" with God.

Christianity is different from every religion who believes in God, in that, all other religions (including Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc) state that you must earn the right to be reconciled with God. For those religions it is by what you do in this life (good deeds or bad deeds) that determines your eternal destiny. Christianity is completely different from this. Christianity is not based on works (or earning your way to heaven) but rather, eternal life is a gift from God just for the asking. Just for admitting that we're not perfect and are in need of a savior. God loves us so much he had Jesus Christ pay the punishment for our sins so we could be worthy for the gift of eternal life. If you have faith and believe that then God will forgive you. You will never be alone after that. "Good deeds" done by Christians are a result of their faith, not because they are earning their way to heaven.

“The difference between Christianity and every other faith in the world is that all other religions are about man trying to reach up to God. Christianity is about God reaching down to man.” ~Patton

I hope my post #7 was helpful

"The Prayer" sung by 7 yr old Rhema Marvanne
click on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRvcW1T3e-s

[mal4mac]

... She wants it to receive "purely" Christian answers for now.

She didn't say that, she said, 'I'm interested in a "purely" way'. Dawkins has a very pure, direct way of arguing. So, on that basis, I recommend "the God Delusion".


Can't we have one thread in the Religious Forum for Christians to discuss our faith as a Christian community?...without the constant battle?

Not when you suggest that Buddhists believe in a God, and twist the words of the poster.

[Melanie]

My goodness, mal4mac. I removed the buddhists from the list of religions immediately. It was just an error. You keep bringing it up. Let go.

Now you're twisting grigioverde's words??
Let's use quotes and see if she's saying she "wants a very pure direct way of arguing" as you suggest :smilielol5:
...not to mention, right now (when she asked for "later"), with your recommendation of a book of arguments

grigioverde..."I'm interested in christianity; its thoughts, objectives, symbolism, historical and cultural significance and key characters: at first I thought to read Bible, Summa Theologiae and other important works but then I realized that I need an introduction, something that will make me familiarize with the topic."

Calidore..."She's a non-Christian looking to learn about the religion. The best way to get a well-rounded education is to talk to people on all sides of the fence--in this case, from believers who can teach from the inside and from non-believers who can teach from a mythological and historical perspective."

Melanie..."Calidore, grigioverde did not say she was "looking to learn about "religion". She said, "I'm interested in christianity, it's thoughts, symbolism..." etc. Not an atheist's thoughts, but Christianity's thoughts."

Calidore..."Hm. Looks like we both read that differently. Hopefully she'll post a clarification."

grigioverde..."I'm sorry for not being very intelligible. Maybe my intent is more near to what Melanie said: I'm interested in a "purely" way even if this doesn't really mean that I'm closed to other points of view but those will eventually come later."

[Bleeding Pawn]

Whichever reference/version the OP required hope she is sartisfied, now there are some points to be clarified.


I'm a Christian and I don't look at christianity as "religion" but rather as a "relationship" with God.

Thats exactly what Pastor Mark Driscoll believes in, is it because he has to follow/obey certain set of rules?
So does that mean the Ten Commandments can be nullified? ( in his case that is)


“The difference between Christianity and every other faith in the world is that all other religions are about man trying to reach up to God. Christianity is about God reaching down to man.” ~Patton

Beautiful words, isn`t it. Considering it came from a non-christian (American school teacher), it still qualifies as a worthy definition of Chritianity. So it proves a person can learn something useful about their religion from anyone even if they dont share the same belief.

Was not Calidore trying to explain this point in the very beginning? And for that matter mal4mac? How can we contemplate the accuracy of The Truth if we just go for our version only.

“It would be more worthwhile to know WHY is it that we believe that what we were brought up to believe because our quest for truth does not end when we know it rather it starts a whole new journey altogether where every step is an implementation of ones acknowledgement of it.”

Te Deum Laudamus.

[Melanie]

Well, it appears I'm the only Christian here and I'm clearly outnumbered. My only agenda was to help grigioverde receive, per her request, an "introduction to Christianity". And also, per her request, not to receive "other points of view" until "eventually later" (see post 20)....especially since she created the thread. I respect her for that. I understand. No hard feelings, but I'm not willing to argue every tedious and time consuming bone-picking challenge, for each statement I make, as I try to help her with an introduction to Christianity. And I'm well aware that it would all be laced with insults which is never good (I've already experienced that).

So have at it, Bleeding Pawn, mal4mac, calidore, and soon to arrive TheAtheist. Is everyone an unbeliever here?? (in Christianity that is). This will be one tilted intro to Christianity if there ever was one. Grigioverde, I refer you to my post #7 as I close the door behind me. I know when to go :)

[Calidore]

Opinions, everyone's got opinions. Here's mine:

Bleeding Pawn and mal4mac: Obviously I agree that the more perspectives, the better, but once grigioverde said clearly that Melanie's interpretation of her initial post was correct, that became moot. It is her thread, after all, and I think it would be the height of bad manners to litter it with arguments about an issue that she's already closed.

Melanie: You're very quick to leap into combat and to leap away from a teaching opportunity. You might find yourself less stressed and more fulfilled if you were slower about both. You have a willing audience; what else matters?

[Nick Capozzoli]

Greetings to everyone, my first thread here, first day too.

As title suggests I'm interested in christianity; its thoughts, objectives, symbolism, historical and cultural significance and key characters: at first I thought to read Bible, Summa Theologiae [sic] and other important works but then I realized that I need an introduction, something that will make me familiarize with the topic and so, I came here.

Which book/s could you suggest me?

I guess that you are looking for a kind of general "review" or "overview" of Christianity, with a historical and philosophical perspective. I'm sure that there must be quite a few texts available, both popular and more academic. In much the same way as there are many "review" texts available on other subjects. Let's say you had asked for similar recommendations regarding, say "Shakespeare" or "Greek Poetry." I could point you to some works discussing those topics, but offhand I can't think of any on Christianity. The Dawkin's book mentioned in this thread is not so much about Christianity as about religious belief in general.

There is something to be said for learning about topics, like "Shakespeare," "Greek Poetry," or "Christianity" by reading the "original texts" that form the basis for those topics, but there are also good reasons for reading subsequent interpretive works. Aquinas' Summa Theologica would be considered an interpretive work, even if Thomas has been designated a "Saint" and not just a mere "theologian."

[Melanie]

Bleeding Pawn and mal4mac: Obviously I agree that the more perspectives, the better, but once grigioverde said clearly that Melanie's interpretation of her initial post was correct, that became moot. It is her thread, after all, and I think it would be the height of bad manners to litter it with arguments about an issue that she's already closed.
Melanie: You're very quick to leap into combat and to leap away from a teaching opportunity. You might find yourself less stressed and more fulfilled if you were slower about both. You have a willing audience; what else matters?

Thank you calidore. I appreciate your voice of reason in this matter, but to answer your question, "You have a willing audience, what else matters?", it matters that I can't reach that audience in a hostile environment (only mal4mac so far...accusing me of twisting the OPs words when I'm actually the only one the OP says understands her intent...and insinuating I know nothing about other religions...admittedly, I don't know everything). Like the lament of teachers in classrooms, distractions impede learning. Not that this is all that hostile yet but argumentative, yes. I haven't even gotten out of the bull pen yet and I'm already sustaining injuries *chuckle*.

We are well into the second page and I feel like all I've done is quote, post, repost, clarify, edit, defend the OP, etc etc....only to start all over again when another person enters like bleeding pawn in post 21 who starts at square one and then enters something about obeying rules and nullifying the Ten Commandments...huh? That's when I thought, ok, I'm out :) Things like that get everything off-topic and people lose focus. The topic is "Intro to Christianity with Other Points of View to Come Later".

Dodging the bullets is a little too labor intensive and time consuming for me. Plus, I come here for pleasure. Whenever I leave my secure little poetry nest I get in trouble, tsk tsk.

Oh, welcome Nick. I'm sorry I posted so soon over your post. I didn't know you were there.

[mal4mac]

... once grigioverde said clearly that Melanie's interpretation of her initial post was correct, that became moot.

She didn't say that, she said, "Maybe my intent is more near to what Melanie said." It was perfectly good manners to offer a further, quick, suggestion, just in case her wavering intent settled at some distance away from what Melanie said.

[mal4mac]

The Dawkin's book mentioned in this thread is not so much about Christianity as about religious belief in general.

That's a bit misleading. For instance, on p.37 he says, "For most of my purposes, all three Abrahamic religions can be treated as indistinguishable. Unless otherwise stated, I shall have Christianity mostly in mind... And I shall not be concerned at all with other religions such as Buddhism or Confucianism."

So although he does consider all the main religions, his comments on Buddhism and Confucianism are limited to dismissing his concern with them, and his considerations of the specific matters relating to other God-centred religions are very limited. In fact, I was initially rather disappointed that he hardly considered any other religion but Christianity. But I realised, by the end of reading the book, that he had to limit it in this way otherwise he could not have given Christianity the "full consideration" that it deserved.

Also the OP stated an interest in Thomas Aquinas, Dawkins begins his section on "Argument's for God's existence" with Thomas Aquinas's 'proofs'.

So, all in all, I think it would be an excellent book to start with.

[mal4mac]

... I'm actually the only one the OP says understands her intent

Wrong! She said: "Maybe my intent is more near to what Melanie said," *not* "My intent is what Melanie said."

Actually, what she said is rather vague, so I can't really blame you for jumping to conclusions; but, in that case, you have to allow me to jump to the opposite conclusions.



...and insinuating I know nothing about other religions...


Well that "Buddhists believe in God" comment looked like a real "know nothing" comment, worthy of an insinuation. But then you said you made a typing mistake, which I accept, so I'll take back my insinuation and admit you may know something about other religions.

[Calidore]

it matters that I can't reach that audience in a hostile environment

[snip]

Like the lament of teachers in classrooms, distractions impede learning.

Of course you can. This is a forum, not a classroom or meeting where people can speak over each other, nor is it real-time. Everyone here chooses what to read and what to respond to. You and grigioverde can still have a perfectly good discussion while either selecting outside comments to include or ignoring them altogether. It's like shopping in a grocery store; just take what you want and walk by the rest.

[Bleeding Pawn]

Opinions, everyone's got opinions. Here's mine:

Bleeding Pawn and mal4mac: Obviously I agree that the more perspectives, the better, but once grigioverde said clearly that Melanie's interpretation of her initial post was correct, that became moot. It is her thread, after all, and I think it would be the height of bad manners to litter it with arguments about an issue that she's already closed.

Calidore: It was not my intention to touch upon the suggestions what Melanie provided (of which i think she did guided the OP quietwonderfully and hope she is enlightened by it) but rather the views of the blog she quoted from.

The problem with some religious private blogs/bloggers nowadays, after some raved reviews, is they think they are a one man Ministry unto themselves and for them Christianity is just a set of attitudes, thats all . For them their only claim of being inspired by Jesus is sufficient enough to provide the authority to preach on the net, not knowing that it is the only source of information , in some case guidance, to those impressionable minds.


Well, it appears I'm the only Christian here and I'm clearly outnumbered.

Melanie, what made you say that? Just like the quote by Mr. Patton did not suggest it was coming from a non christian it could also be applied the other way round. Many of the critical thinking about the christian faith were the result of some severe self accountability within the ministry itself, especially during the middle ages between different practicing sects.

How can we cherish truth if we do not confront lies/blasphemies? How can we appreciate repentance/salvation if we do not experience sins?

It replenishes our belief to tackle such critical questions which makes us steadfast in our own faith, when we reach the stage where we even start to doubt them.

Anyway it is our choice to only have inclinations towards the soothing music ( which is natural), though we have to be aware that it can get lethally sedative if we do not establish a channel of verification with our own conscience, from preventing it be worn out.


My goodness, mal4mac. I removed the buddhists from the list of religions immediately. It was just an error. You keep bringing it up. Let go.

But what about the blog (http://philippians1v21.wordpress.com/why-believe-in-jesus/why-christianity-is-not-a-religion), Buddhism is still mentioned there. From the onset the blogger used the tag line, Us versus Them. Many vulnerable/ innocent Christians and persons looking to be acquainted with Christianity might fall for it and fall they did. Jumping to conclusions about the true interpretation of Jesus teachings, they started posting similar comments on the net and they feel so ecstatic whenever they quote it as if they have cracked the secret code of life or better still the Holy Grail, without even an attempt to validate that claim.

[Calidore]

Calidore: It was not my intention to touch upon the suggestions what Melanie provided (of which i think she did guided the OP quietwonderfully and hope she is enlightened by it) but rather the views of the blog she quoted from.


Rereading that part of my post, it was written pretty badly. I just meant that I'd hate to see that happen, as it so often does whenever religion comes up in a thread, but now it reads like I was scolding you and mal4mac for doing just that, which was NOT my intent. Sorry for the poor wording.

[mal4mac]

But what about the blog (http://philippians1v21.wordpress.com/why-believe-in-jesus/why-christianity-is-not-a-religion), Buddhism is still mentioned there.

Yes, Pastor Mark Driscoll really trumpeting his ignorance there! I find his attack on the Jews also very ignorant (and very awful.) He says: "There was a group of corrupt religious leaders called the Pharisees who had taken the word of God, passed down from Moses and the prophets (the Torah), and written a commentary on it interpreting what the scriptures said (called the Talmud). Then they wrote another commentary on that commentary called the “Mishnah”. The Mishnah was a list of hundreds rules to meet in order to insure that you were obeying the word of God. These were created by man and had little basis in the actual scripture."

Little basis in scripture! That's like saying modern philosophy has little basis in Plato, or modern literature has little basis in Shakespeare. There's a superb series on BBC2 in the UK at the moment by Simon Schama, called "The Story of the Jews", and in it Professor Schama gives a superb account of the Talmud and Mishnah. In Schama's picture the Jewish commentators have taken the most interesting, wisdom oriented parts of the Bible and added wise commentary to it, and then more wise commentary on the wise commentary, and so on, thereby creating an incredibly rich, and growing, wisdom literature. Driscoll should stick to plugging his own sect, and not attempt to attack other religions, he obviously doesn't have the intellectual capacity, or depth of knowledge, to do that.

Driscoll even attacks his own, keeping up the tradition of in-fighting that Christians have become famous for down the ages:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/mark-driscoll-rebuked-for-judging-obamas-faith-with-controversial-twitter-post-88675/

[mortalterror]

Read the New Testament first, specifically the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. If you still have a hankering for the subject read the Old Testament starting with Genesis afterward. Then maybe try something light and modern that seeks to explain how modern Christians see the religion like C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. After that, give Dante's Divine Comedy a whirl. Then and only then should you seek out the deeper more philosophical commentaries or systematic theologies found in St. Augustine's Confessions, City of God, Peter Lombard's Sentences, Aquinus' Summa Theologica, Thomas a Kempis Imitation of Christ, John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, Emanuel Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell, Soren Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling, and then all the new theologians like Tillich, Barth, Bonhoeffer, Kung, Niebuhr, Van Til, and Hauerwas.