Pub licensing and discrimination

[LitNetIsGreat]

I recently came across a pub sign that read:

"Strictly no children after 7pm - parents with children will be asked to leave at 7pm. No children allowed in the bar area at any time. Strictly no prams allowed on the premises."

Now I know that it is entirely up to the landlord of a pub in the UK to allow or not to allow children in the pub, but what about prams? Can a landlord say no to prams? Is this not discriminating parents with younger children? If not, can a landlord say no to wheelchairs in the same way? How about black people, homosexuals?

I've googled around and not found the answer to this, only that landlords can serve who they want, but surely they can't discriminate in terms of race and sexuality, in the same way they seemingly can with parents with prams?

This not the first time I have seen the "ban on the pram" and in the same town as well. I remember seeing a sign that read 'No dogs. No children. No prams.' This is usually followed by a ridiculous welcoming message - "a warm welcome found within" or something, the one above read "come a stranger, leave a friend" (unless you are a parent apparently).

I'm not really interested in debating whether "pubs are or are not fit places for children" sort of thing, or that I like loads of kids in pubs, I'm just interested in the legality of the situation. Any thoughts or opinions on it?

[Lokasenna]

I rather liked a sign I saw outside a pub once:

'Unattended children will be given Espresso and Gin'

Horribly illegal, of coures - but I like the sentiments. As for the legality of children in pubs... well... one could make the argument that minors shouldn't be in a public house anyway... but I suppose it must be the landlord's decision.

Actually, I wish restaurants would put limits on children, or have designated family areas - there's nothing that ruins a good evening quite like a load of noisy, feral children running around screaming.

[Delta40]

Mmmm. Do gay bars ban heterosexuals? How do you prove you're gay to gain entry? I can't stand kids ruining my meal but the little blighters exist and it hasn't occurred to me that they should be made lepers of society. Why not have a 'we were here first' policy so whoever is on the premises first has the right to complain but not if they arrived after the person they want to whinge about. The fairest remedy for them is to bugger off. I've seen a manager use this tactic before and called it aussie rules and then everyone shut up and went back to their respective corners.

On another note, Aussie pubs bear no relation whatsoever to English pubs and one would be mad to take their kids to one since nearly every bar has a topless barmaid and they'd probably get sexually molested in the toilet.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yes I'm not keen on feral children running around of course, but I wondered about the legality of it. Though it just struck me as totally discriminating and I have to admit it annoyed me very much.

I'm fine with landlords saying no children in pubs but to say "strictly no prams" I thought was pretty anal and I wouldn't go in the pub on principle, for me it is not at all far away from saying 'no wheelchairs' or 'no shopping baskets' 'no big bags' pretty pathetic I thought.

I remember when our kids were young and we came across that 'No dogs. No children. No prams' sign in a pub on holiday once - same place, Scarborough (we hate children). Keep in mind we were hoping to go in for a quick bite to eat at 5/6pm on that occasion, not that we were out drinking at 10pm or anything. Of course the pram days are long gone now thank god, but I remember how difficult it was and how annoyed we were to be treated like lepers from not just that pub but many in that town. so I was annoyed on principle at coming across that notice. I wish I had taken a photo but a classic I thought:

"Strictly no children after 7pm - parents with children will be asked to leave at 7pm. No children allowed in the bar area at any time. Strictly no prams allowed on the premises. Come a stranger, leave a friend."

Unbelievable!

On behalf of decent people who happened to commit the crime of having a baby I was disgusted. I've posted a short negative review Tripadvisor as this annoyed me.

[Delta40]

What about if they say 'No Obese People?' Just the beautiful folk thanks...especially at a tourist destination lol.

[Darcy88]

Parents should be encouraged to bring their children with them to the pub to remind the younger single intoxicated patrons of the potential consequences of casual sexual relations.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Mmmm. Do gay bars ban heterosexuals? How do you prove you're gay to gain entry? I can't stand kids ruining my meal but the little blighters exist and it hasn't occurred to me that they should be made lepers of society. Why not have a 'we were here first' policy so whoever is on the premises first has the right to complain but not if they arrived after the person they want to whinge about. The fairest remedy for them is to bugger off. I've seen a manager use this tactic before and called it aussie rules and then everyone shut up and went back to their respective corners.

On another note, Aussie pubs bear no relation whatsoever to English pubs and one would be mad to take their kids to one since nearly every bar has a topless barmaid and they'd probably get sexually molested in the toilet.

I'm pretty sure that hetrosexuals are allowed in gay bars. I can't say I'm an expert on gay bars but I'm 99.9% certain this is not an issue.

I didn't know Aussie pubs were like that! The majority of English pubs I think cater for children and families in some way, apart from crowed city centre pubs of course where you wouldn't take children in anyway. This pub was on the coast in a family resort - virtually opposite a fun fair! So you would think they would want to cater for families, especially during the holiday season. Regardless, this is not my problem, my itch was the sign for no prams as expressed above.

[papayahed]

Prams cause a hazard. There are probably requirements on aisle space. If there's a fire you don't want to be tripping over prams in your rush to the door.

[Ecurb]

When I used to live in Arizona, some cities had zoning laws outlawing children. They were retirement communities, and in endless letters to the editor old geezers would rage about noisy big wheels, and how "we geezers deserve our peace and quiet."

Yes, many Arizonans hate the gay laughter and happy shouting of young children, and outlaw them from residing in certain towns. We can only guess the attitudes of these same age-bigots toward kitty cats, puppy dogs, and giant panda cubs.

[Delta40]

Is it unreasonable though that certain groups wish to cater socially to the exclusion of others?

[LitNetIsGreat]

What about if they say 'No Obese People?' Just the beautiful folk thanks...especially at a tourist destination lol.

Ha, ha, yes exactly. It appears that this would be fine as it is totally down to the landlord's discretion according to what I have read.

I know that many landlords try to ban the 'chavy' element by saying 'no trainers or caps allowed.' This sort of thing it widespread in city centres, along with 'no football shirts.' Really when you think about it the more and more it becomes pretty pathetic. I wonder if Pele just happened to be walking by and wanted a drink, if they would make an exception or say 'sorry mate, you are wearing a Brazil shirt.'



Prams cause a hazard. There are probably requirements on aisle space. If there's a fire you don't want to be tripping over prams in your rush to the door.

That's fine but so do big bags and wheelchairs, so would you ban them too? The 'no prams' here is not a result of concerns about fire safety as anyone can gather from the sign, but about the landlord's personal dislike of children. That much is clear. If not why not say 'no prams, wheelchairs or large items allowed on the premises at any time as a result of fire hazard'. Clearly they just don't like children but at the same time want some of the trade. You can't have it both ways. Also prams can be folded, so that's not even a defence.

[Ecurb]

When I lived in Chicago, bars had closing times of either 1:00 or 3:00. The only bar near where I lived that stayed open until 3:00 was a gay Mexican bar. To us benighted gringos, going in to buy six-packs to go was always an unenviable adventure, and we used to have backgammon tournaments to see who would be forced to make the beer run. I don't know what the bar was like earlier in the evening (when other liquor options were available to us), but between 1:00 and 3:00 it was very strange. The generally staid and macho nature of Mexican-American culture was flip-flopped, and Mexican men of all ages were routinely making out in the bar while we made our purchases and fled from the double culture shock.

[Ecurb]

Is it unreasonable though that certain groups wish to cater socially to the exclusion of others?

"Unreasonable" isn't really the correct word. "Unfriendly", "unsociable", "nasty", "bigoted" and "mean-spirited" spring to mind as more accurate descriptions.

[Delta40]

"Unreasonable" isn't really the correct word. "Unfriendly", "unsociable", "nasty", "bigoted" and "mean-spirited" spring to mind as more accurate descriptions.

Yes but birds of feather stick together. We're famously known to gravitate toward groups which we fit into. I see in the US there is a growing trend in dance clubs exclusively for obese people. I can see the sense in that on several levels.

[stlukesguild]

When I was a youngster myself I remember that children were not permitted in bars... or in many restaurants where alcohol was served. The idea, obviously, was to not set poor examples for the young 'uns. I personally am all for no children in bars. I am for a venue where adults can let off steam and be adults without having to worry about behaving in front of children. A couple of Christmases ago the faculty of my school met in a local bar/restaurant for our annual Christmas party. We teach in one of the roughest inner-city schools and as a result our faculty is made up of a number of individuals as rowdy as the kids. A couple of the teachers got truly sh**-faced and began singing out pornographic versions of Christmas carols or just yelling out a continual stream of profanity. Not far away were several tables where families were dining. One of the parents finally complained. In response, the most belligerent of our staff stood up, raised her glass, and intoned loudly, "That's why you don't take your f....'in kids to an f....'in bar!"

Honestly, I am all for banning children at restaurants... or setting aside special seating for them. Returning to my younger days, I remember that as a child eating out in public it was made clear to us that we follow the rule, "Children only speak when spoken to." When a younger child or baby began to make a fuss, one of the parents would rapidly take the child to the bathroom or the car until he or she was calmed down. My thinking is that when I go out to dine at a nicer establishment I am paying not only for the food but also the atmosphere. My idea of a fine dining experience isn't a bunch of jabbering, yelling, and caterwauling children with parents too stupid to either learn how to control their kids... or leave them at home.

The reality is that it isn't just the exclusive gated communities that expect a degree of decorum, peace, and quiet... it is a great majority of communities. There are zoning laws that limit noise levels and other aspects of how and what you may do on your property.

I'm going to channel Emil here and suggest that none of this would be a problem if more people simply had a sense of respect for others.

[Lokasenna]

I'm pretty sure that hetrosexuals are allowed in gay bars. I can't say I'm an expert on gay bars but I'm 99.9% certain this is not an issue.

In my undergraduate days I used to frequent the local gay bar quite often, mostly because a couple of my friends in the group I used to do most of my socialising with were gay and whenever the question was posed of where we wanted to go out for an evening they would chime in with the local LGBT wateringhole. It was quite a nice bar, so I didn't mind - and apart from getting hit on a few times and having to politely decline, there was no other reference to my heterosexuality.

I'm not sure about prams - I wonder whether they might constitute a tripping hazard? They are quite bulky, and whilst they are a useful tool for parents they are not perhaps quite as essential to daily existence as a wheelchair is to an invalid?

I think Luke has a point about respect for other people. I was having lunch in the pub a few weeks ago, and the child at the next table was screaming its head off - the parents apparently having decided to ignore it until it got over its hissy fit. Whilst the validity of this as a parenting tactic is up for debate, it is nevertheless a rather antisocial thing to do with regard to the other patrons - many of whom were presumably there to enjoy a quiet pub lunch with friends. If I had been the parent, I would have been mortified with embarassment - at the very least, I would have taken the child outside in an attempt to calm it down.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I haven't got an issue with landlords banning children from their pub (as is the law) as it is up to them on what type of pub atmosphere they want to create, whether it is family friendly or more catered for adults. I would say that the vast majority of pubs in the UK do allow children, especially in the day and especially where they serve food. Lesser so at night but a ban on children completely, I don't know maybe 1 in 8 or 9 pubs? But a "ban on the pram" I still find totally bizarre and unacceptable.

I would certainly be annoyed though if restaurants started banning children or cafes etc, for where are families supposed to eat out in the day?

As you have pointed out any problems with annoying children lies at the hands of the parents but not all parents are bad! My kids behave extremely well whenever we go out for a meal, for example, if they didn't I wouldn't take them. They will always be plenty of space for pubs/bars/restaurants that cater for different people so I don't see any need for a blanket ban. Of course if you blanket ban families from pubs/bars/restaurants etc then what comes next public transport, museums, churches, libraries?

On the point of loud music in homes, I'm sure there is a loophole here in the UK because people are getting away with this here as the law is just not on the side of the law abiding citizen. Two house parties here last week with bumping 'music' and shouting and screaming, swearing, one went on while 11.30pm the other while 2.30am all of course within built up residential areas - people with kids, people having to get up for works etc. The law for stopping this sort of thing is a joke. Police are not interested as they say it is a council issue but to get this stopped if it becomes a weekly or even almost daily thing is a very lengthy process and can take 6 months or a year to stop or limit. Neighbours need to provide reams of evidence - dates and times when the noise occurs and the nature of it and then maybe the council will confiscate a stereo. Not so if a public house allows noise beyond it's licensing times as these can be quickly shut down temporary or permanently.

This was the case in one pub I tired to get access to last week but I wasn't served, as the landlord ignored me repeatedly. I gathered that the pub was very insular and that I was a new face and so wasn't welcome (I have since read about it). Maybe the tennis racket was an issue too, who knows? Of course the sign outside said "the friendliest pub in *** - FACT!" What was just missing from the front of it was "No new faces or people with tennis rackets."


I see in the US there is a growing trend in dance clubs exclusively for obese people. I can see the sense in that on several levels.

I think I have seen another glimpse of the future that I just don't like.


I'm not sure about prams - I wonder whether they might constitute a tripping hazard? They are quite bulky, and whilst they are a useful tool for parents they are not perhaps quite as essential to daily existence as a wheelchair is to an invalid?

Possibly, but the six month old needs the pram as much as a disabled person and the pram can be folded down.

[Hawkman]

.

I'm fine with landlords saying no children in pubs but to say "strictly no prams" I thought was pretty anal and I wouldn't go in the pub on principle, for me it is not at all far away from saying 'no wheelchairs' or 'no shopping baskets' 'no big bags' pretty pathetic I thought.

"Strictly no children after 7pm - parents with children will be asked to leave at 7pm. No children allowed in the bar area at any time. Strictly no prams allowed on the premises. Come a stranger, leave a friend."

Unbelievable!



In the UK it would actually be illegal to discriminate against people in wheelchairs. Anyone offering a public service is required to take "reasonable steps" to accommodate disabled access. (I've never really been sure what is actually meant by "disabled access" as the words would seem to suggest that all the doorways should be bricked up). Likewise with disabled parking bays. It's easy to disable a parking bay, you just park in it. That way no one else can, unless they own a tank. :devil:

The law also requires that there is sufficient thoroughfare in aisles, etc. within the premises. This is not just an accessibility prescription, but also a health and safety issue. I'm not quite sure what you, or the landlord, meant by "prams" either. In my day a perambulator was an enormous coach-built thing with four wheels that made excellent go-cart running gear. Was he including pushchairs under the same heading? Then again, modern pushchairs can be ridiculously oversized contraptions, with configurations in double, triple or even quadruple seating arrangements, much larger than wheelchairs and almost impossible to manoeuvre. Some of these can't even get through doors, unless they're large enough to allow the passage of a passing Zeppelin. Were these things to be littered around in a pub, the wheelchair users wouldn't be able to get by them.

The ban on the contraption is not a ban on the child. You just leave the conveyance outside. You don't drive into your pub, do you? Drive-Inns: the motorist's pubs. Now there's an idea :D You don't even have to get out of your car!

[LitNetIsGreat]

In the UK it would actually be illegal to discriminate against people in wheelchairs. Anyone offering a public service is required to take "reasonable steps" to accommodate disabled access. (I've never really been sure what is actually meant by "disabled access" as the words would seem to suggest that all the doorways should be bricked up). Likewise with disabled parking bays. It's easy to disable a parking bay, you just park in it. That way no one else can, unless they own a tank. :devil:

The law also requires that there is sufficient thoroughfare in aisles, etc. within the premises. This is not just an accessibility prescription, but also a health and safety issue. I'm not quite sure what you, or the landlord, meant by "prams" either. In my day a perambulator was an enormous coach-built thing with four wheels that made excellent go-cart running gear. Was he including pushchairs under the same heading? Then again, modern pushchairs can be ridiculously oversized contraptions, with configurations in double, triple or even quadruple seating arrangements, much larger than wheelchairs and almost impossible to manoeuvre. Some of these can't even get through doors, unless they're large enough to allow the passage of a passing Zeppelin. Were these things to be littered around in a pub, the wheelchair users wouldn't be able to get by them.

The ban on the contraption is not a ban on the child. You just leave the conveyance outside. You don't drive into your pub, do you? Drive-Inns: the motorist's pubs. Now there's an idea :D You don't even have to get out of your car!

Right yes so it is illegal to ban wheelchairs. But nothing about prams. What was meant by 'pram' by the way was an umbrella term for all those devices, pushchairs, buggies etc. Most parents have fold down buggies so size is generally not an issue though you can get larger ones. The ban was just on the lot of them though, so a single folding buggy wasn't allowed, but a triple size wheel chair or large shopping bag, camping rucksacks (quite a few walkers around) were. So I clearly read this as a ban on younger children, as a way of saying (and when you infer from the sign - Strictly no children after 7pm - parents with children will be asked to leave at 7pm. No children allowed in the bar area at any time. Strictly no prams allowed on the premises. Come a stranger, leave a friend) I translate as something like: We don't like children in the pub but we can't turn down the trade as we are close to a funfair, so children allowed grudgingly to a certain degree. However, we don't like screaming babies so none of those and we can live with losing that portion of the market.

[Emil Miller]

I'm at one with St.Lukes on this issue as I don't think it right that people should take children into pubs. However, there have been some interesting points made to the thread.

I think it would be as well to put oneself into the publican's shoes. When he receives complaints from clients, what is he supposed to do? obviously he can't ignore them at the expense of losing his regular trade. Yesterday I was in a pub which was full of the kind of derelicts one might find in a William Faulkner novel, simply because I wanted to try a beer that isn't readily available elsewhere. Moreover, in the part of London where I live, there have been two killings in different pubs: one of them because of a dispute over a game of dominoes, surely these are not the kind of places that one would take children, despite the fact that they are so-called 'family friendly' establishments.

It's interesting that homosexual bars have been mentioned, as only last week I discovered through the internet that a pub in central London that for many years had a clientele that was predominantly heterosexual, is now billed as a 'gay bar' and one commentator on the pub's performance was given to say that he didn't like the door keeper's attitude when he was refused entrance for not being really gay. He said the comment was 'most hurtful'. (I'm not joking).

As for the 'No obese people' option, if they did that, English pubs would lose 90% of their business.

When it comes to restaurants, children are usually allowed but there is a duty on the management to ensure that they are well behaved. I usually eat in Chinese restaurants where there are often children with their parents but I have never experienced any bad behaviour and have even gone in with a friend's children myself on occasion without any problem.

[Hawkman]

Right yes so it is illegal to ban wheelchairs. But nothing about prams. What was meant by 'pram' by the way was an umbrella term for all those devices, pushchairs, buggies etc. Most parents have fold down buggies so size is generally not an issue though you can get larger ones. The ban was just on the lot of them though, so a single folding buggy wasn't allowed, but a triple size wheel chair or large shopping bag, camping rucksacks (quite a few walkers around) were. So I clearly read this as a ban on younger children, as a way of saying (and when you infer from the sign - Strictly no children after 7pm - parents with children will be asked to leave at 7pm. No children allowed in the bar area at any time. Strictly no prams allowed on the premises. Come a stranger, leave a friend) I translate as something like: We don't like children in the pub but we can't turn down the trade as we are close to a funfair, so children allowed grudgingly to a certain degree. However, we don't like screaming babies so none of those and we can live with losing that portion of the market.

Well the law only requires that children under 16 be accompanied by an adult in the bar, so I guess this is the publican's choice, but I'd certainly not consider it unusual. Most family oriented pubs have family areas and there's no restriction on the beer garden during the day, assuming there is one.

Quite frankly I'd be appalled if parents with babes in arms were lounging around in pubs after 7pm anyway. The kids should be tucked up at home at this time. What kind of a parent hangs out in a bar after 7pm with their kids? When I was young this just never happened. There's a big difference between grabbing a pub lunch with the family during the afternoon and spending the evening with them in a pub. If one want's to spend the evening in a pub, either alone, or with one's wife or partner, one should get a baby sitter and leave the kids at home. I'm less outraged by the publican's attitude than by the parenting skills of his clientele!

[LitNetIsGreat]

Well a blanket ban is a matter of opinion but I think it is unnecessary and of course won’t happen anyway as pubs are a dying trade at the moment even without that.

Of course when I am talking about taking children into pubs I’m talking about select pubs. I wouldn’t go in half of the pubs around, let alone take my kids into them! In fact the number pubs that I would go into are getting smaller and smaller for various reasons. For example one has recently changed the beer and lager to undrinkables so I won’t be going back there unfortunately.

I’m still not sure about the legality of banning prams though. Perhaps I’ll have to conduct some market research and interview a few landlords?:smilewinkgrin:



Well the law only requires that children under 16 be accompanied by an adult in the bar, so I guess this is the publican's choice, but I'd certainly not consider it unusual. Most family oriented pubs have family areas and there's no restriction on the beer garden during the day, assuming there is one.

Quite frankly I'd be appalled if parents with babes in arms were lounging around in pubs after 7pm anyway. The kids should be tucked up at home at this time. What kind of a parent hangs out in a bar after 7pm with their kids? When I was young this just never happened. There's a big difference between grabbing a pub lunch with the family during the afternoon and spending the evening with them in a pub. If one want's to spend the evening in a pub, either alone, or with one's wife or partner, one should get a baby sitter and leave the kids at home. I'm less outraged by the publican's attitude than by the parenting skills of his clientele!

Yes I can see that point, but we are talking about a holiday resort, so you would have thought they'd be a more open approach, especially considering the location on the front, by the small funfair. As such there are not many people who go on holiday and are in bed for 7pm, especially if the kids are 10/12 year old etc. There has to be some place that are willing to accommodate families past this time just for a while to unwind, which of course there were, as some pubs are much more welcoming. I would have been much happier if that pub just didn't allow children full-stop or did. I can't be doing with the snide 'no prams' policy which really is just a way to say we don't want any babies or toddlers in the pub at all as we don't like them. Also there was no beer garden so that was not an option, so neither could the pram be left outside. If you had a pram and wanted to go in it was just tough ****.

There are some people with bad attitudes around concerning children, lots of prejudice. For example when we went out for my birthday for a meal in a pub/restaurant. It was a nice quiet pub, actually hardly anyone in at all and we were the only ones eating when we went in. We sat right at the back by the window and my kids were quiet and impeccability behaved throughout as usual in public (why they can't always behave like that in the house I'm not sure). We just had a bite to eat and a quiet drink, probably the kids took a book or a pad of paper something like that though we didn't stay long, just one or two drinks at the most. On the way out my wife heard the snotty remark from one snooty woman "fancy taking kids in the pub on a school night. Disgusting." My kids are 8 and 10 and we left at 6.30pm. I wish that I had heard the comment as I would have had a comment to return as I am losing my patience with crap like that these days.

There is no reason why a sensible approach to children and pubs/restaurants can't work. In other cultures, say Italy and France for example I believe, have a very sensible attitude and a responsible approach to families and pubs/restaurants and as a result far less problems with alcohol. Children can be sensibly educated much more easily if they are not excluded like lepers from social environments and their parents treated like criminals.

[Hawkman]

I can see your argument too, up to a point. Pre-teen kids are more of a problem, and yes, they like funfairs and stuff like that, and times have changed since I was a kid, I admit, though not necessarily for the better. At that age I wasn't allowed to go wandering off on my own in the evening, I'd have had to have an older sibling with me or be accompanied by a parent; the latter definitely being less fun. But if you're on a family holiday, the family would probably be better off doing family things, not going to pubs. Restaurants aren't pubs, and I see no problem with well-behaved adolescents in them. Small children are definitely better off at home in the evening.

The example you cite with the rude woman when you were out grabbing a bite with school-age children at only 6:30 pm, Well, I'm with you all the way there. Another thing to consider is that when I was young, pubs weren't actually nice places to be for kids. They reeked of ciggy smoke and stale beer and people went there to unwind and drink. Posh pubs were fewer and farther between. There was always the lounge bar, of course, and I seem to remember that accompanied older kids could go in there, but the public bars were rather rough.

The trouble with modern life is that the boundaries are blurred. Most pubs these days have to do food, or they won't get the customers. Some can't make up their minds whether they are really restaurants or not, having carveries etc. Ultimately, if you don't like the place, then don't go there, I guess. If it's near a holiday resort there's bound to be something catering to your needs.

[Ecurb]

Yes but birds of feather stick together. We're famously known to gravitate toward groups which we fit into. I see in the US there is a growing trend in dance clubs exclusively for obese people. I can see the sense in that on several levels.

The problem with this attitude is that it is bigoted. I regularly hear people say, "I don't like kids." Or I hear them say, "I really like kids." Both are forms of prejudice, implying, as they do, that all kids are alike (obviously, the first is nastier, but I find even the second objectionable, in a minor way). Of course if one is a member of a minority group that regularly experiences prejudice from the majority (like obese people, for example), it makes sense that you might want to be around others like yourself.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I have found out that it is perfectly legal to ban prams from pubs in the UK. It is not legal to ban wheelchairs, or ban on racial or sexual grounds but apparently anything else is fair game and perfectly legal.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I think when I win the Euro lottery, which is very soon, I'm going to have a lot of fun when I buy all the local pubs an post my own signs, now that I understand the legal position.

Here's one:
No chavs.
No people who say 'LOL.'
No mobile phones.
No people who drink Carling. Please note this pub does not serve Carling as it is ****ing rank.
Welcome all.


Here's another:
No people who constantly talk about work. If you want to come into this pub and talk about work then go and **** off and work.
No ugly people.
No people who don't like strawberries.
The friendliest pub in Yorkshire. Come with a frown, leave with a smile.

And another:
No middle management allowed on the premises at any time.
Supervisors allowed on the premises but must leave before 7pm, and strictly not allowed in the bar area.
People who buy low grade sausages or factory farmed eggs must be accompanied by an adult at all times.
The Welcome Inn - here to offer you a smile.

One more for kicks:
Strictly no fat Sheffield Wednesday burger munchers allowed on the premises at any time.
No bow ties.
No shopping bags with 'Tesco' on the front.
No sun readers.
The Red Lion - voted the best pub in town.

Yes this issue has really pissed me off, and I haven't even had a pram for about five years, but I remember how hard it was.

Another one.
No car drivers who spend more than £3000 on a car.
Absolutely no one who has ever said "I'm glad to be back at work" ever, allowed on the premises at any time, on any occasion - you can **** off.
No people who listen to chav 'gangsa' music.
No people with red socks allowed in the bar area at any time.
No overtly, 'happy' people.
The King's Head - we think of you as family.

I could go on and on but I'll leave it there. What a ****ing country.

[Emil Miller]

:lol: You missed out tennis rackets.

I have to agree about Carling, although Fosters is even worse.
I went into a Wetherspoons pub recently because they do Leffe on draught and the barmaid told me that they only sold it in half-pints because of its strength. So I ordered two halves and a pint glass before making my way over to a table from where I could watch the world go by. As I approached the table, I noticed that there was an empty glass and a newspaper left by a former occupant. The glass had a Foster's logo and the newspaper was ( you guessed it ) the Sun. Still, I felt better about it when I had drunk the Leffe.
I hear that Fosters is trying to go up-market with a 'stronger' brew, I suppose that means they use two ears of barley instead of one, but how about this item from somebody's beer blog concerning a pub during the London Olympics:

“We were in a pub in Greenwich the other day where they'd put the price of Foster’s up to £5.90 a pint for the tourists.”

[Volya]

I think when I win the Euro lottery, which is very soon, I'm going to have a lot of fun when I buy all the local pubs an post my own signs, now that I understand the legal position...

...I could go on and on but I'll leave it there. What a ****ing country.

Some of this seems a tad excessive. What's wrong with bow ties :'(

[LitNetIsGreat]

:lol: You missed out tennis rackets.

I have to agree about Carling, although Fosters is even worse.
I went into a Wetherspoons pub recently because they do Leffe on draught and the barmaid told me that they only sold it in half-pints because of its strength. So I ordered two halves and a pint glass before making my way over to a table from where I could watch the world go by. As I approached the table, I noticed that there was an empty glass and a newspaper left by a former occupant. The glass had a Foster's logo and the newspaper was ( you guessed it ) the Sun. Still, I felt better about it when I had drunk the Leffe.
I hear that Fosters is trying to go up-market with a 'stronger' brew, I suppose that means they use two ears of barley instead of one, but how about this item from somebody's beer blog concerning a pub during the London Olympics:

“We were in a pub in Greenwich the other day where they'd put the price of Foster’s up to £5.90 a pint for the tourists.”

Yes Foster's is pretty bad as well. Though I have only drank Carling on two occasions and have been physically sick both times so I have to go for Carling on that basis. I'm not talking about drinking a lot either after just one pint or even a half! Whereas if Foster's is very very cold and I hold my nose I can get it down in an absolute emergency. £5.90 Christ, another glimpse of the future I don't like.


Some of this seems a tad excessive. What's wrong with bow ties.

A tad excessive, no, no surely? The 'guv'nor' can do what he likes:

http://dadds-solicitors.co.uk/licensing-news-and-opinion/qanda-answer/pram-ban/

[stlukesguild]

I actually don't mind a Fosters from time to time. But then you have to remember that the big beer in the US are absolute diluted pi**-water (Budweiser, etc...). But £5.90 a pint!!? :crazy: One of the big oil cans only runs a $1.50 or so here and I can't imagine more than $4 or so... unless its in one of those pretentious "sports bars" with 57 TV sets.

Returning to the question of children in restaurants, I have actually requested to be seated away from any children. Not long ago, when Ohio still allowed smoking in restaurants, I was asked for my seating preference (smoking or non). I replied "No children." The waitress looked confused, and asked "You don't like children?" I replied, "I hate children." She continued, "How can you hate children?" to which I answered, "I'm a teacher." Oh... I understand," she replied.

I can understand your position as a Dad, Neely... but my young 'uns are fully grown and after a day working with the Hoodlums I teach I want nothing whatsoever to do with children as I wind down the evening.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I would prefer Budweiser to Fosters though, but yes £5.90 a pint is not the norm. This is some rip off London pub. I paid something silly like that in Dublin once in one pub. Standard prices for lager are coming in at around £3.40 a pint, though I paid £4 last week for a pint of San Miguel (as we were barred from the Sam Smith pub, with prices at about £2.30 a pint). Bitter is around the £3 mark. This is one of the reasons the pub trade is struggling though because you can get much better value in off-licences and the supermarkets, especially if you are only drinking bottles. Of course one of my hobbies is visiting nice country pubs so I don't mind paying, especially for good beers or top continental lagers like Warsteiner if you are lucky enough to find it. That's usually about £4 a pint. So I guess looking at the exchange rate, average prices for a pint would work out somewhere between the $5-5.50 mark for you. This I guess is rip off Britain time again.

I'm currently drinking lagers mostly, as it is summer I often drink more lagers. San Miguel or Stella, but also still drinking good ale for the quality. I'm off out tonight for a meal and will be drinking good ale. Just me and the wife, no kids, before anyone asks. Really difficult though as we are caught between the slightly snobby pub (the one mentioned above somewhere) or the slightly chavy pub. Going to try the snobby pub again, but not a good experience last time and they also ran out of beer! Only bottles left??:eek: If this is the case tonight I'm walking straight out of the pub in disgust and that will be another one I'm barring myself from permanently.

Ha, ha, I like the story about the seated away from kids and the waitresses response and understanding when you said you were a teacher.

I've had postings back from a solicitor who confirms that it is legal to 'ban the pram' but it is on slightly dodgy ground. I'll copy and paste some of his response if I can get permission to do if anyone is interested.

[LitNetIsGreat]

OK, I have response from a legal expert on the issue, a solicitor I think, which is as follows in case anyone was interested in the factual basis of this:


The Equality Act applies to all service providers, and despite the fact that you can call it a public house, or whatever else, pubs are service providers. Shops fall into that category, even law firms.

As I mentioned, you can't discriminate on the grounds of a protected characteristic. It's an objective test for both whether you have discriminated, and whether it was justified. You still can discriminate, but you need to be sure you can justify it.

In the OP you mention prams; you can easily justify that in terms of space, and the fact that although you're limiting access to people with prams (potentially parents, a protected characteristic), it's justified on the basis that space is at a premium in a pub, staff have to get between tables and chairs with drinks etc. It'd be ok.

To bar, for example, anyone Indian, would of course be wrong, and as it should be, illegal.

Someone mentioned the guest house issue, and the couple not allowing gay couples to stay.

That was always going to be a difficult case, as you've two protected characteristics, religion and sexuality, effectively squaring up to each other. As a Court, do you risk upsetting the religious or the gay communities more? I'm glad I didn't have to decide that one, although I'd have favoured the gay community, not being religious (although I'm not gay either, but strongly in favour of gay rights).

You mention under 5's - age is a protected characteristic, but, as before, it would come down to justification.

Summary - you can discriminate against people, but make sure you have a very good reason if you plan to do it!

So this is legal, but on slightly, very slightly maybe, dodgy ground.

---

I went out tonight to the 'snobby' pub but when we got there it was closed until Tuesday, with a new landlord moving in!!! Great stuff! They offered us free drinks but we had to leave for the other pub as we were starving. That's a promising sign though. The other pub which I had labelled 'chavy' was not at all on this occasion, very good and great food. The pub after that was OK too. Some children eating or sat in both and not an issue at all. One or two sat quietly in the corner having a meal or sat outside in the garden, not a problem at all, never even heard them, can't see where there is a problem here to be honest; a lot of fuss about nothing.

[stlukesguild]

I thought you and Germany were part of the EU. Shouldn't you be getting Warsteiner for less than me? Actually, it's quite easy to find here... and sells for something like $8 for a case of six bottles. I have little experience with it. I tend to lean toward stouts and other dark beers...

http://www.kegworks.com/images/blogpost/ayinger-celebrator.jpg

http://www.merchantduvin.com/images/i-samuelsmith-family.jpg

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4067/4393729602_7d59d625e2_z.jpg?zz=1

-Brazilian... haven't had it for years...

http://drinks.seriouseats.com/images/2012/03/20120305-imperial-stout-group.jpg

http://www.theperfectlyhappyman.com/uploads/youngs-double-chocolate-stout.jpg

wheat beers...

http://www.finecooking.com/cms/uploadedimages/images/cooking/articles/issues_111-120/051111026-01-wheat-beers_xlg.jpg

http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab93/Jetta1cab/SunsetWheat.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7007/6405558849_fe6f7656fd_z.jpg

and Belgian or Belgian-style ales.

http://lovegoodbeer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/350px-De_zeven_trappisten.jpeg

There are also some odd ones I like:

http://boozedancing.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/wells-banana-bread-beer1.jpg

I must say that its easier than ever to find good beer here as it seems Americans are acquiring a taste for it. Part of this is due to the start up of a lot of small or micro-breweries which often have a restaurant connected.

[Emil Miller]

There are a number of aspects to beer drinking that are sometimes overlooked by the drinker but are nonetheless interesting.
Solitary drinkers may prefer to drink at home and avoid the increasing discomfort of drinking in pubs which, since the abolition of separate bars in the 1960s, means that an anarchic mess has replaced the choice of different bars for different temperaments. This system operated on the price principal i.e. the quieter bars were more expensive (more exclusive and less inclusive/intrusive) and was the civilised way of dealing with a disparate clientele. Put more simply, all the noisy wankers were confined to the public bars while those of a quieter disposition used the saloon or lounge bars.
It was then discovered by the large brewers, who owned many of the pubs, that if they converted their establishments into a single bar and installed pop music, they could pack in the aforementioned wankers and sell them coloured water. This eventually led to the rise of C.A.M.R.A (Campaign For Real Ale) and the start up of small independent brewers who actually made and sold real beer. While this brought about the well-deserved demise of Watney's, one of the largest purveyors of cats piss, and the restoration of decent beer, the damage has been done and the single bar and pop music remain. Despite these unnecessary conditions, draught beer is superior in many people's opinion to the bottled variety and a pub is a must for those who prefer their beer from the pump.

The problem with micro breweries is that nowadays some of the people engaged in beer production appear not to know what they are doing and there are some really awful beers, often exhibited as guest ales in pubs, that are best avoided: although without actually drinking them, it isn't possible to tell whether they are drinkable or not. In this context it's probably better to ignore those with names like Old Tosser, Winter Willy Warmer or similar artfully contrived designations.

As for lagers, where the majority of pump beers in the UK are made under licence from their foreign parent companies, there is little difference between them and while most are drinkable some are definitely not. Those produced by conglomerates such as Allied Breweries for the UK market are fizzy non-entities that can safely be given to women and children but are otherwise best avoided. My own preference is for Leffe which, as far as I know, is brewed specifically in Belgium and exported to the UK for both draught and bottled drinking. It's expensive but so superior to the UK brewed lagers that it's well worth the cost.

I have no experience of dark beers even though Guinness is a big deal in the UK and its followers swear by it. I've been told that it has a propensity to increase the waistline more noticeably than other beers and on that score alone I stay away from it; Falstaffian waistlines are not my thing.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Some nice looking beers there and a few familiar friends - I'm now gagging for a beer! Yes part of the EU but that doesn't stop us getting shafted with tax, which is I guess why we are paying more for alcohol than in a lot of places due to the tax whacked on it. Cigarettes and tobacco is even worse I think.

I don't mind darker beers and stouts but I'm more likely to have those in the winter, although a Hobgoblin went down well the other night. If I'm really thirsty and its hot I'll go for lager first then beers later perhaps. I've just bought a pack of beer for tonight, though perhaps I'll go a little easier as I can't be drinking 5 or 6 pints every night. :drool5:

Yes Leffe is a good drink. I wouldn't class it as a lager though, its more of a light beer and yes it is only brewed in Belgium unless things have changed recently, but I don't think so. In pubs they should serve you with in neither in half pints or pints but in its own 330ml glass, technically speaking. The vast majority of Belgian beers are served in 330ml glasses. You should be able to just ask for a Leffe and they should automatically give you a 330ml serving. Drinking Leffe by the pint is a little bit like asking for a pint of wine, though of course it is up to you. They shouldn't be serving you with Leffe in ordinary glasses unless you ask for it. You are well within your rights to refuse Belgian beer if it not in the correct glass if you want.

Most beers are generally better from the pump if it is kept in good condition. I tend to know where I can get a consistently good pint from these days and tend to stick to the beers that I know are good. For example if I fancy a good pint or two of Black Sheep I know which pub to go to to get a consistently good Black Sheep. Or if I want some good Belgian Ales I know the best place to go for that, etc, etc. I could take you to two different pubs and have hand pulled Black Sheep, one of them will be a fantastic pint, the other very ordinary and watery, both Black Sheep, both hand pull, so the condition they are kept in is very important. One tip is to look out for the blue 'Cask Marque' badge on top of a hand-pull (http://www.cask-marque.co.uk/find-real-ale-pubs/with-cask-marque). In my experience this badge is an almost guarantee of a well kept pint, at least I don't think I have had a bad one when I've seen this mark.

Some bottled beer can be equally good though, if they have fermentation still in the bottle. Most of the Belgian beers are made for the bottle and still have sediment in the bottle. When a barman pours you one of those quality Belgian Trappist brews above, say the Westmalle or Rochfort, Chimay, Orvel, La Trappe or that Achel (I wonder if the other bottle there is the legendary Westvleteren http://www.sintsixtus.be/eng/brouwerij.htm, I had read that they had started a small export to the US) as well as serving you in the correct glass, they should also ask you if you want the sediment in the glass. I think it is supposed to alter the drink but to be honest I've never noticed the difference. If you can get hold of a Westvleterent brew you have to try it as it used to be very rare and only available via prior appointment direct from the Abbey itself. I don't know if the US export is any different from the stuff they sell at the gates or not I've no idea, but it is not available here. It's a dark beer like the Rochfort ones, but I imagine it would be virtually impossible to get hold of the US export even as production of it is very small.

Yes I think Guinness is pretty high up on the calorie intake, a good job perhaps that I don't drink much of it during the heavier drinking season or I would have to do even more biking and tennis to try to burn it off and I'm already knackered and aching all over.

Edit: actually looking at my Leffe glass it is a half pint, so I don't know whether they serve Leffe in half pints instead of 330ml or whether I've got a smaller glass at home. Probably they do serve it in half pints but most Belgium servings are 330ml. I can feel a trip to the Dev Cat Belgian beer section to do some research in the coming week.

[Emil Miller]

Yes Leffe is a good drink. I wouldn't class it as a lager though, its more of a light beer and yes it is only brewed in Belgium unless things have changed recently, but I don't think so. In pubs they should serve you with in neither in half pints or pints but in its own 330ml glass, technically speaking. The vast majority of Belgian beers are served in 330ml glasses. You should be able to just ask for a Leffe and they should automatically give you a 330ml serving. Drinking Leffe by the pint is a little bit like asking for a pint of wine, though of course it is up to you. They shouldn't be serving you with Leffe in ordinary glasses unless you ask for it. You are well within your rights to refuse Belgian beer if it not in the correct glass if you want.

Most beers are generally better from the pump if it is kept in good condition. I tend to know where I can get a consistently good pint from these days and tend to stick to the beers that I know are good. For example if I fancy a good pint or two of Black Sheep I know which pub to go to to get a consistently good Black Sheep. Or if I want some good Belgian Ales I know the best place to go for that, etc, etc. I could take you to two different pubs and have hand pulled Black Sheep, one of them will be a fantastic pint, the other very ordinary and watery, both Black Sheep, both hand pull, so the condition they are kept in is very important. One tip is to look out for the blue 'Cask Marque' badge on top of a hand-pull (http://www.cask-marque.co.uk/find-real-ale-pubs/with-cask-marque). In my experience this badge is an almost guarantee of a well kept pint, at least I don't think I have had a bad one when I've seen this mark.


Yes I think Guinness is pretty high up on the calorie intake, a good job perhaps that I don't drink much of it during the heavier drinking season or I would have to do even more biking and tennis to try to burn it off and I'm already knackered and aching all over.

Edit: actually looking at my Leffe glass it is a half pint, so I don't know whether they serve Leffe in half pints instead of 330ml or whether I've got a smaller glass at home. Probably they do serve it in half pints but most Belgium servings are 330ml. I can feel a trip to the Dev Cat Belgian beer section to do some research in the coming week.

There are some places in which bottled Leffe is served in the appropriate glass and others where it's not but if it's from the pump, I doubt that it will be served in a 330ml glass. The main thing is being able to get it anyway. I have known a few instances where it's been installed as bottled or draught and removed shortly thereafter because many people won't pay the asking price.

The correct keeping of ale is important because, as you point out, it can taste very different according to how it's handled. I have occasionally noticed the blue cask mark but not very often and it's possible to find two pubs within close proximity where the same brand is as different as chalk from cheese. This has nothing to do with the class of establishment as I know one place where the customers make your average Wetherspoons clientele look like a Buckingham palace garden party but the draught Fullers ESB is superb.

You have my sympathy regarding the physical trials of keeping in trim during this drinking weather. Two of days ago I went on a country walk that took in a couple of killer hills and long stretches on the flat that left me walking on auto pilot by the end. Ironically, there were three pubs en route and I stopped off for a pint at each one but I resisted the fourth, located close to the station, as I had a bottle of Rosé d'Anjou waiting at home.

[papayahed]

In the OP you mention prams; you can easily justify that in terms of space, and the fact that although you're limiting access to people with prams (potentially parents, a protected characteristic), it's justified on the basis that space is at a premium in a pub, staff have to get between tables and chairs with drinks etc. It'd be ok.

huh. Seems like I may have heard that before.

[cacian]

I thought the whole idea of a pub is that people felt lonely hence the pub. a place to drink and socialise ie meet people drunk or no drunk.
more and more people drink on their own that is because loneliness consumes them and not the other way around.
they drink because they are lonely or on their own. if you take the pubs out, the one place where people meet, then you end up making for an alcoholic nation. solitary drinking is as a result of pub closures smoking ban and other reasons.
off licences are also a hazard and one of the reasons people drink on their own.
the amount of shops selling alcohol is mounting and that teaches people to stay at home and drink.
supermarkets sell the biggest amount of alcohol because they make for the whole range of alcoholic beverages. alco pops is another hazard.
it is also becoming apparent that more and more people are drinking in the streets.
you can tell by the amount of cans being thrown in streets/parks/open space areas. it is becoming a concern. mass produced alcoholic cans cheap manufactured booze if you like is sold 24/7.