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glenn84
08-04-2013, 08:10 PM
Decision
by Glenn R.

Jack Harper leaned his head against the porthole window in his quarters, watching the streaks of light pass by, as ARK traveled through space faster than the speed of light. It was all that he knew. Tucked away safely in his mother’s belly, while the Fish Heads brought hell down on Earth, he would never be able to see the trees with branches covered in green leaves flapping in the wind, listen to birds chirping when he woke up in the morning, or smell the sweet scent of a barbecue cookout under the warm summer sun. He had to rely on words to paint the pictures in his head, and even that wasn’t enough to quell his yearning. Only the humming sound of the ship’s engine vibrating through the wall could calm him in these moments, just as it had calmed him for the past twenty years.

Setting aside the battle transcript he held in his hand, he hopped off the bed and walked over to the kitchen. He grabbed the water pitcher from the table and thrashed around what was left of his ration, then poured himself enough for a few sips. When he walked back to the bed, a shriek from outside his room startled him.

He placed the cup down on the night table and hurried outside. A middle-aged man, fist raised in the air, stood over a younger man, about Jack’s age. Jack went over and grabbed his arm. “What’s going on here?” said Jack.

Both of the man’s hands were clenched tight, eyes wide, as he kept his gaze on the man slumped on the ground. “This sonofa***** stole my water ration!”

Jack peered down at the man as he removed his hands from his face. “I...was…I was thirsty. Please…please forgive me.”

“If you had rationed your water like everyone else,” the man angrily replied, “you wouldn’t be in this situation now, now would you?” Jack knew this day would eventually come. When ARK and ARK I launched from Earth, traveling in opposite directions, NASA made sure to load enough water to last twenty years. They could have loaded more, but with the Fish Heads moving on the North American and South American east coasts, NASA only had so much time before the Fish Heads figured out their plan. The ship had a water recycling system, but it could only recycle so much dirty water at any given time, not nearly enough for fifty thousand people a day. Food, however, wasn’t much of an issue yet, since they were able to grow their own crops in the ship’s garden. But without water those same crops would eventually die, leaving them with no water and no food in the process. Jack hoped ARK I was faring a bit better in the water department, wherever they may be.

Jack had to do something before the situation escalated. He turned to the man whose arm he still had cuffed with his. “How much did he take?”

He seemed to ease off a bit. “About half a gallon, I guess.”

Jack released his arm. “Wait here, I’ll be right back. Try not to kill him while I’m gone.” He went back to his quarters and grabbed the pitcher from the kitchen table. He held it up to the light, it wasn’t quite half a gallon. He glanced over to where his bed was and grabbed the cup from his night table, pouring the contents back into the pitcher. When he was back outside he shoved the pitcher into the man’s chest. “Now get out of here.”

The man looked at Jack like he was crazy. “What about him? You’re not just going to let him go, are you?”

“I said get out of here!”

“Fine. Word of advice kid: You let him go and how long you figure before he does the same thing to someone else?” The man gave one last look to the guy on the floor and scoffed, then turned around and left.

Jack turned to look at all the faces gazing at him. He didn’t notice them standing there until now. “Nothing to see here folks, go back to your rooms.” One by one they each went back into their rooms. They still had respect for authority. But he knew authority could only last so long if they didn’t find a colony to repopulate soon.

Once inside his quarters, Jack switched on the vidcomm and searched for his mother in the ship’s directory. When he found her, he tapped on her photo and waited.

She picked up on the second ring. “Hello, son, is everything all right?”

Jack shook his head. “Can I come see you?”

“Of course, you know you don’t have to ask.”

He put on his uniform and took the long walk to her quarters. He pressed the buzzer outside her door. After a moment the door slid open. Seated on the sofa, cradling a cup of tea in her hands, the hot steam rising to the ceiling like some supernatural thing, his mother watched as he entered the room; gray streaks along her long brown hair made her seem older than she really was. Jack saluted. She chuckled. “Oh, stop it Jack, I’m your mother. Plus, I’m in my pajamas.” She got up and poured him some tea. “So what’s the matter?”

Jack took the cup from her and sat down. “I just got finished breaking up a fight outside my room.”

“Well, that’s nothing new,” she said as she took a seat next to him. “Fights break out all the time, especially in the bar.”

“One of them stole the other's water ration.”

She slowly nodded and sighed. “How'd you stop it?”

“I gave him mine.”

“You what?”

“What was I supposed to do? People came out of their rooms to watch. I wasn’t about to let him beat that guy to a pulp.”

She leaned forward and patted his hand. “No, I suppose not. Your father would have been proud.” She got up and walked over to the kitchen. When she came back, she held out her pitcher for him to take. “Here, take mine.”

“Mom, I can’t. That’s your ration. It was my decision to give him my water, not yours.”

“Whatever decision my son makes affects me just the same, maybe even more.” She grabbed a cup and filled it to the top, then placed the pitcher on the coffee table next to his leg.

He smiled. “Thanks, mom.”

“Don’t mention it kiddo. So what have you been doing to pass the time?”

Jack took a sip of the tea. “Reading over the transcripts from the war.”

“Those boring things? You know, Charlene came to see me the other day. She asked about you. Why don’t you take a break and spend some time with her? There’s no telling how much time we have left.”

“I might just do that.”

The bar in ARK's fore section was one of the few places one could unwind. Whenever he wasn’t training or studying, Jack could usually be found there. It wasn’t a five-star establishment like some of the ones he’d read about in his books, and they only served one type of drink, but it was better than nothing.

Jack was staring out into space from atop his usual stool when Charlene entered the bar; her shiny black hair sparkling under the light. Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata played over the speakers, giving the place a serene vibe. She pulled up a stool and sat next to him. “I can’t believe it,” she said with a big smile, “it’s actually you. I thought I was dreaming when I heard that voice message you left on my comm the other day.”

He grinned as he gestured the bartender over. “How do you know it’s really me? What if I’m just a hologram and the real Jack is really still in his room?”

Suddenly, she grabbed the back of his head with both hands and kissed him. After a moment they slowly pulled away from each other, looking into each other’s eyes. “…Nope,” she said, “not a hologram.”

“What can I get you?” asked the bartender.

Jack cleared his throat and turned to him. “Two gins—“

Charlene corrected him. “Just one gin."

The bartender nodded. “Coming right up.”

Jack turned to Charlene, she was biting her bottom lip. He knew that meant she was nervous. It was a bad habit that stayed with her since childhood. “Since when do you pass on gin?”

“Since…now.”

Jack turned on his stool to face her when his drink came. He took a few sips and popped some peanuts in his mouth. “Tell me, what’s wrong?”

She grabbed his leg as if holding on to it for dear life. “Promise me you won’t tell anyone if I do?”

By the way she was clawing at his leg, Jack wasn’t sure if he even wanted to know anymore. “I promise. Should I be worried?”

“Depends, if me being pregnant worries you?”

Upon hearing the news, Jack’s glass slipped from his hand, luckily he grabbed it before it dropped to the floor. Wasting alcohol was not wise on a nonstop flight through space, especially when you just found out your girlfriend was pregnant, when it wasn't supposed to be possible. “How? You’re on birth…!” Everyone in the room turned to look at him, he leaned towards her and lowered his voice. “…you’re on birth control.”

“I know I am. But I’ve been having all the symptoms, and I missed my period. I tried telling your mom the other day, but I couldn’t bring myself to do it. What are we going to do?”

Jack downed the gin in one excruciating shot and signaled for another. “Give me a second to think. Oh, God, I don’t know. Who else knows about this?”

“Just you.”

“Good, let’s keep it that way.”

A woman’s voice came over the speakers. “Lieutenant Jack Harper, please report to the command room. Jack Harper, to the command room.”

“What’s that all about?” said Charlene.

“I have no idea. But she sounded a little too happy.” When the bartender came back, he downed the gin and got up from the stool. “Let’s talk about this when I get back, OK? I’ll come visit you in your room once I’m done.” She nodded, and he turned to leave, then he stopped. The idea of him being a father had not fully registered. What did he know about being a parent? And did he really want a child growing up in this world, a world full of constant fear and uncertainty? He looked back to Charlene who was still seated on the stool. If anyone deserved to have something to live for, it was her. He hurried back and kissed her for a long moment. “I love you. We’ll make it work, you’ll see.”

ARK’s officers were waiting for him in the command room when he arrived. Seated at the head of the table was Commander Harper, his mother. He saluted, she saluted right back. “Have a seat Lieutenant,” she said. He took a seat at the middle of the table. “As you may already know,” she continued, “we are running low on water.” She turned off the lights when the hologram of a small planet appeared over the table. “Our scanners have picked up a planetoid that may have what we’re looking for. High pressure density and very, very cold.” She pressed a button and the image zoomed in. Jack could make out the outline of an ice lake on the surface. “As far as we know there’s no Fish Heads in the area. But we can’t tell for sure. Everyone in here knows what those things are capable of.”

“So what are we looking at here?” asked Jack. "Team or solo?”

Commander Harper turned the lights back on when she said, “Solo, of course. We can’t risk losing an entire team. We send one ship with a tank and they scout the area. If the coast is clear, we’ll send down one ship after another to retrieve as much water as we can. But we have to move quickly. It wasn’t even two years ago when we got ambushed by two of their mother ships because of carelessness. And we all know the price that was paid.” She paused to look into Jack’s eyes. “So, who’s it going to be?”

The room was quiet. Jack looked at all the nervous faces seated around the table. He raised his hand up. “I’ll go.”

Commander Harper glared at him. “I was hoping you could assist me on the bridge, Lieutenant.”

“If it’s OK with you Commander, I would like to go down to the rock.”

“Lieutenant, can I have a word with you in private?” She got up and Jack followed her outside. “What are you doing?”

“My job. I’m the most qualified in that room and you know it.”

“That’s exactly why I need you by my side.”

“Is that really it, mom? Or is it because I’m your son?”

“No, it’s because you have a kid on the way!”

Jack looked around to see if anyone heard her. “How did you know that?”

“Please, you don’t think I know when someone’s pregnant? I had you, didn’t I?”

He paced back and forth in the corridor. “So, are you going to report it?”

She looked at him like he had just punched her in the face. “What kind of mother do you think I am? No way am I letting those bastards take my grandchild away. I stopped them from taking you away, I can sure as hell do it again.”

“That’s good to know. I’m still going down to the rock, whether you like it or not.”

He left her there with her thoughts.

Since ARK was only meant to hold fifty thousand people, the ship’s scientists decided to lay down some rules. One of which was to keep the population under control until they found a suitable colony. His mother stopped them from aborting Jack when they first set out on this quest. She was able to keep his birth secret from the other inhabitants by keeping him inside her quarters until he got older. Having gone through what she went through to keep him alive, Jack wasn’t surprised that his mother would try to keep him from going down to the planetoid. When he passed the prerequisite exams with flying colors, it was his father who suggested he join the academy, not her. She scolded his father for even suggesting it. But in the end the decision was always Jack’s.

And he chose to become a pilot.

As he walked through the long winding corridor towards Charlene’s room, Jack noticed all the happy faces that passed him. When he was outside her door, he pressed the buzzer, and the door opened. He found Charlene on her bed, reading A Tale of Two Cities. He gave it to her once he’d finished reading it. She didn’t like the dark theme of the book that much, but admitted that it helped pass the time. She bookmarked her page and took her reading glasses off once he entered the room. Jack went to her and rested his head on her thigh.

She ran her fingers through his wavy hair. “I heard the good news. You’re going down there, aren’t you?” she said.

He nodded. “Nothing gets kept a secret on this ship for too long.”

She laughed. “No, no it doesn’t, especially if it involves the Fish Heads or water.”

Jack shifted his head and placed his ear over her stomach. “How come I don’t hear anything kicking around in there?”

She playfully smacked his head. ”It’s only been six weeks silly.”

“What are we going to name it?”

“I was thinking we can name her after your mother, if it’s a girl, Elizabeth.”

“And if it’s a boy, we can name him after your father, Frank,” said Jack.

Charlene shifted around on the bed and pulled out a silver pendant from under her pillow. She held it from a rope and dangled it in his face. “This was my father’s lucky charm.” She took Jack’s hand and placed it in his palm. “He gave it to me before he went off to fight the Fish Heads with your father two years ago. He said, ‘Baby girl, you hold on to this for me until I get back, OK?’ Of course, he never did. I always thought it was because I took his lucky charm away, so I kept it hidden away under my pillow until now.”

Jack held the pendant up to the light so he could see. It was a fighter jet, one of the ones from Earth. He remembered that day like it was yesterday. His father was in command at the time, and they had discovered a planet that shared similarities with Earth, only it was still developing. Some areas of the planet, however, were suitable to live on. There were some islands scattered here and there, and even streams to drink from. Everyone was so excited, Jack especially, he was finally going to see his first tree, but they never made it off ARK.

Two Fish Head mother ships appeared out of nowhere just as they were getting ready to land. ARK was taking heavy fire. His father, being the best pilot aboard ARK, decided to hold them off with a squadron of fighters, Charlene’s father included. He gave command to his mother and told her to jump as soon as he gave the word. Jack wanted to join them but his father convinced him to stay. He told him, “You have to help your mother on the bridge. Don’t worry, I’ll be right behind you.” Then, just like that, he was gone. Jack watched as they detonated their nuclear payloads just before ARK jumped into hyperspace. He could still see the fierce flashes sometimes when he closed his eyes.

He unraveled the rope and put the pendant around his neck. “I’ll bring it back.”

"I know. If you don't, I'll come find you." They giggled like a couple of children. Jack moved up the bed and grazed her neck with his lips. Until they were both unclothed and under the sheets. When they finished, Charlene lay on top of him, her warm face pressed against his bare chest. Neither said a word until they called Jack over the speaker, announcing that his ship was ready.

Charlene was asleep. He made sure not to wake her as he got up and went into the bathroom. After cleaning up he went back to his room and got into his suit, then walked over to the hangar. His mother was waiting for him just outside the ship’s cockpit.

Jack Saluted. “Ma'am.”

She saluted back halfheartedly. “You ready?”

“Yes, Ma'am.”

“Get to it then, pilot.” She grabbed him by his suit just as he was getting ready to enter the ship. “First sign of trouble, you bail. You got that?” He nodded then hopped onto the ship.

His co-pilot, Tuna, was already seated inside. “Viper is in the building,” he said, imitating the sound of cheers.

“You already do a systems check?” said Jack.

Tuna nodded. “Just waiting for you to confirm.”

Once everything checked out, Jack fired on the ship’s engines. After a minute, he moved the ship onto the launch pad.

“Helmets on,” ordered Jack.

Tuna switched off the cockpit lights. “Launch pad is clear. Ready for takeoff.”

The landing bay lights illuminated the way out. Jack pushed forward on the throttle and the ship gradually picked up speed until they zoomed through the landing bay. He grabbed the yoke just as they shot out into space.

Maneuvering the ship manually for a simple landing was unnecessary with the ship’s advanced auto pilot feature. However, Jack never liked computers doing something he could do just as well, and in some cases, even better. He brought the ship around and pointed its nose at the blue planetoid, then fired on the thrusters.

When they were just outside the planetoid's atmosphere, Jack positioned the ship for atmospheric entry. The ice pelted the glass as they descended, some as big as grapefruits. Visibility was low, so he flipped on the ship's thermal imaging sensors. He let his instincts guide the ship to its target. All he needed was the coordinates and a map of the surface.

Finally clear of the clouds, Jack eased up on the throttle and switched the thrusters off. He spotted the frozen lake two thousand yards ahead as they settled into a nice glide.

Jack made sure to land a good distance away from the lake. He scanned for any heat signatures. After a few minutes of scanning, he switched off the ship’s engines and signaled Tuna to open the hatch with a twirl of his finger. Jack reached above and pressed the button to release the tank, it slid to the ground like a leaf thanks to the quantum levitation tech.

Jack got out of his seat and wrapped the utility belt around his waist, then exited the ship to meet Tuna, who was looking through a pair of binoculars; his rifle slung over his shoulder.

“You see anything?” asked Jack.

Tuna shook his head. “Nothing but hills of ice in every direction.” He brought the binoculars down and turned to Jack. “You ever think we might have just gotten on the wrong ship? I do. I sometimes dream that ARK I has already found a colony, while we’re stuck here playing hide-and-seek in space with the Fish Heads.”

Jack gazed out into the dark abyss when he said, “Let’s just get this over with so we can go home.” He crunched through the ice until he was in front of the tank, then switched on the quantum lock on his belt. As long as he stayed in front, the tank would follow ten feet behind at all times.

When they arrived at the lake, Jack removed the thawing pellets from his pouch and tossed them onto the ice. After a minute, the ice melted, revealing a pool of water.

Tuna threw his fists into the air. “Hell yeah!”

“Grab the hose,” said Jack.

Tuna went back and detached the hose from the side of the tank, then tossed the end into the water. The whole process took about twenty minutes to complete. The tank now held ten thousand gallons of water.

Jack switched on his comm. “Extraction complete. Heading back now.”

His mother’s voice crackled in his ear. “Good work. Any sign of the Fish Heads?”

“Negative. Nothing but ice down here.”

“Keep your eyes peeled.”

“Copy that.”

Jack switched off the quantum lock and went around to the other end of the tank. He switched it on again and they walked back towards the ship. The wind began to pick up, making it harder to see.

He switched on the helmet's thermal imaging when his heart just about gave out.

A Fish Head was blocking the path to the ship, its arm held up. Jack immediately grabbed his sidearm and pointed it straight at it. “Fish Head, twelve o’clock!”

Tuna turned on his thermal imaging and freaked out. It was the first time he’d ever seen one in person too. He brought his rifle up and began to fire wildly at it, bullets missing it completely.

“Tuna, stand down, stand down!”

He didn’t listen, he just kept moving towards it, firing every round in his clip. Fish Head released a golf ball-sized sphere from its arm. It moved at lightning speed until it crashed through Tuna’s helmet like it was made out of paper måché.

Tuna froze mid-stride and dropped the rifle. He turned around to look at Jack when the sphere blew a hole through his stomach. Then it went back in and came back out, back in and out, in and out, until there was nothing left of Tuna but a red smear against the white ice.

Jack looked away as his helmet’s comm began to blink. His eyes came back to Fish Head as it turned its attention on him. Holding the gun in one shaky hand, Jack placed his other hand in the pouch on his back.

His mother’s voice came up on the helmet’s comm. “Jack, what happened to Tuna? We’re getting a flat line on our end. Is everything OK?” He didn’t answer. “Jack, Jack! He won’t answer, I don’t know what’s wrong. JACK!”

Hundreds of Fish Heads rose up from the snow.

“Mom," he finally said, "it’s time to leave now.”

“The hell we are. We’re sending more ships down now.”

He shook his head. “No, you can’t risk the lives of everyone aboard the ship for one person. Remember, they’re telepathic. They could have sent word out to a nearby mother ship.”

She began to sob. “I’m not leaving you to die!”

“I’m sorry, I love you. Tell Charlene I love her too.”

“JACK—“

Jack switched the comm off and dropped the gun, pulling the knife from his pouch using the same hand. He slashed two big slits down his chest, making an X. The air immediately escaped, then he felt his eardrums pop. The helmet’s glass began to mist up instantly. He fell to his knees as he watched the army of Fish Heads start towards him.

He was on his back when the Fish Heads got to him. Before shifting his head to look into their black soulless eyes, he caught a glimpse of the flash in the sky from the corner of his eye.

At that moment, as his life slowly faded away, Jack imagined what his unborn child would look like, the great things he/she would do, and it made his next decision that much easier.

Jack wrenched his other arm free from behind to reveal the thermonuclear detonator in his hand. “Go to hell!” He pressed the button.

ralphr81
08-17-2013, 04:06 PM
I'm a big Sci-Fi nut. So when I clicked on this thread I made sure to bring my carving utensils along.

It's safe to say that this story exceeded my expectations. The storytelling was nothing short of amazing. I love how you focus mainly on the characters and not on the science aspects. Any Sci-Fi author worth their salt writes character driven stories: Orson Scott Card and Ray Bradbury are masters at doing this.

The ending gave me goosebumps. Not many stories can do that.

The back story presented makes for a deeper story that can be expanded in a future novel or series.

I can tell you put a lot of thought into this and it shows. Thank you for sharing.

glenn84
08-17-2013, 06:29 PM
I'm glad you enjoyed the story ralph. I wrote it in one sitting. Took only 12 hours. I was afraid I would lose the connection I had with the characters if I had taken a break from it.

ralphr81
08-17-2013, 07:06 PM
I can tell! It's a big time story. I'll have to read some of your other works. Hopefully they're as good as this gem.

Hawkman
08-18-2013, 04:24 AM
Hmmm. I actually had to try and read this a couple of times. I started reading the first time and thought: Ark ship - cliche; fighting over rationed water - cliche; Fisheads - straight out of a Dr Who episode; second generation officer class on board ship - Cliche. At the first attempt I gave up just after he went and had a cup of tea with his mum! At this point I skimmed to the end and thought Oh Dear, Big Cliche!

To be honest, the whole thing reads like a 1950s Sci Fi. It gets so that Sci-Fi has to be really original to grab my attention. In fact, these days I kind of feel that the only legitimate use of Sci Fi is parody. All the Ideas have been used before, so you might as well just have some fun by taking the Micky out of it. Consequently, when I read a story like this that takes itself seriously it falls a bit flat. Now don't get me wrong, I like a good Sci Fi, I write it myself, but I make a point of deliberately referencing my favourite stories and shamelessly making them as funny as possible. You should see what I've done to Julian May and Anne MacCaffery! Mercilessly given the Douglas Adams treatment, with perhaps just a hint of Terry Pratchett. The trick to good Sci -Fi is to tell an ordinary tale of contemporary life but set it in and environment that is different. It can be used to comment on contemporary problems and you can be inventive with your solutions.

Anyway, I came back to this tale and read it through. The title is a bad one. It gives the game away before you've read the first paragraph. There aren't too many problems with the actual writing. The second sentence isn't very good though because its in the wrong tense. "It was all I had ever known."

You also have a bad habit of repeating yourself. This is particularly noticable around the point the shuttle is being prepared for take off. He tells them to put their helmets on, then you mention the helmets again in the very next sentence. You do this a few times in the tale. You need to keep an eye on how you detail this sort of thing.

Interesting that although man is able to travel faster than light, he's still using projectile weapons.... C'mon, there must be room for a laser carbine or something :D

For the most part you write quite well, but the two Sci Fi tales are a bit too copycat. I much preferred the fantasy element and humour of the other story, which although derivative, you made your own with some nice twists.

Live and be well - H

Ps. I forgot to mention the Gin. A spaceship with 50,000 people on board, not enough water, and a bar with an unlimited supply of gin. Now that's funny. You could have made a whole social satire out of that!

H

Calidore
08-18-2013, 10:04 AM
Glenn84, check out Lokasenna's new post "The Last Speck" for a good example.

glenn84
08-18-2013, 11:51 AM
I see what you're saying. But isn't all Sci-Fi a bit cliche? I mean everything is just a rehash of previous works. How many space stories can really be different? You're either exploring(i.e. Star Trek) or you're running away from something.

Can you imagine spending 20 years in space without any alcohol? I picked Gin specifically because it's made with juniper berries, which can be grown.

As for the FTL tech. Remember, there was a war on Earth. They could could have knocked one of the ships out of the sky and reverse engineered it. This story actually doesn't take place too far into the future.

Hawk, you're right about the title. I changed it to Decision.

glenn84
08-18-2013, 11:53 AM
As for The Last Speck, I'm sure it's a great read, but I'm not really interested in Sci-Fi that spends too much time explaining Science. I want Sci-Fi that focuses on the characters.

Hawkman
08-18-2013, 12:17 PM
I see what you're saying. But isn't all Sci-Fi a bit cliche? I mean everything is just a rehash of previous works. How many space stories can really be different? You're either exploring(i.e. Star Trek) or you're running away from something.

Can you imagine spending 20 years in space without any alcohol? I picked Gin specifically because it's made with juniper berries, which can be grown.

As for the FTL tech. Remember, there was a war on Earth. They could could have knocked one of the ships out of the sky and reverse engineered it. This story actually doesn't take place too far into the future.

Hawk, you're right about the title. I changed it to Decision.

Oh come on... Every alcoholic drink, including beer, is made from something that is grown. As for reverse engineering tech, you can be damned sure that if they can do it with super-luminal propulsion, the scientists and the military would definitely have done it with weaponry. The tropes of Sci Fi may be cliched, like artificial gravity and star drives, but the story elements can be made original. I don't think there's an original idea in this story.

Live long and prosper - H :D

glenn84
08-18-2013, 12:31 PM
Beer is a mixture of different things which also needs water to be created. Distilled juniper berries can be turned into alcohol by itself. Two very different things Beer and Gin. The weaponry of the Fish Heads is organic. So I don't know how the military could reverse engineer that.

Hawkman
08-18-2013, 12:39 PM
What about cider :D that'll give you calvados as well! Then there's grapes so you can have wine and brandy and while you're di stilling all the alcohol you'll be able to distill water too! You can even liberate pure water by freezing alcoholic drinks because water freezes at 0c while alcohol freezes at -114c ;)

glenn84
08-18-2013, 12:54 PM
Hawk, I doubt they have apple trees on a ship.

In order to distill water you have to have water in the first place. Water recycling is a slow process that turns perspiration and piss into water. So distilling piss will only get you cleaner piss, which wouldn't be very drinkable. Now when they do get some water, then they can go ahead and distill it if they want to. But they need the water first.

ralphr81
08-18-2013, 01:34 PM
I see a big recurring problem on this forum. Too many comparisons with stories written 60 years ago and not enough criticism on the actual story.

So what if glenn84 created believable characters and put them in an impossible situation, right? A story should only be evaluated on how it compares to other works written 6 decades ago. Story? Who cares about a story? How the hell did they get Gin on board? That's my first question. Even though he already explained that they were growing their own crops.

I have a question. Why don't you guys talk about the damn story? Stop nitpicking on the little things and look at the big picture. The man wanted to save everyone on board but by doing so he risked the chance of leaving his child fatherless. Jack himself was born on ARK when he wasn't supposed to be. His child is going to have to grow up on ARK as well. And you better believe people are going to push for an abortion.

Jack knew he was taking a big chance by going down to the planet. He was the most qualified on the ship and he wanted to get the water as fast as possible. If the Fish Heads showed up and offed him, then everyone on board the ship would be a little reluctant to abort his kid. He went down there and sacrificed himself for humanity. How the hell can we kill off his child?

Those are the elements that matter. Forget about the gin and the damn FTL. Read the story for crying out loud.

glenn84
08-18-2013, 01:59 PM
Oh come on... Every alcoholic drink, including beer, is made from something that is grown. As for reverse engineering tech, you can be damned sure that if they can do it with super-luminal propulsion, the scientists and the military would definitely have done it with weaponry. The tropes of Sci Fi may be cliched, like artificial gravity and star drives, but the story elements can be made original. I don't think there's an original idea in this story.

Live long and prosper - H :D

I've never seen or read a Sci-Fi story where the MC sacrifices himself, giving up his seat on the ship in the process, so that humanity and his child can live on. Do you know of any?

Hawkman
08-18-2013, 02:08 PM
I've never seen or read a Sci-Fi story where the MC sacrifices himself, giving up his seat on the ship in the process, so that humanity and his child can live on. Do you know of any?

Well the opening of the Star Trek reimagining by JJ Abrams (2009) had Kirk's father doing just that, and of course Spock heroically sacrificed himself for "the needs of the many" in The Wrath of Kahn, although they brought him back in the Search for Spock :D True, on this occasion he didn't take any baddies with him, but the "Screw You" ype remark before blowing yourself up to take out your adversaries is a staple cliché of action and combat genres. In Predator, of course, the alien did it to try and kill Schwarzenegger, which was a nice twist. :D And then there was the girl in Pitch Black who went back to try and save Riddick but got eaten by the monsters while Riddick got away.

That enough for you or do you want more?

Hawkman
08-18-2013, 02:13 PM
Hawk, I doubt they have apple trees on a ship.

In order to distill water you have to have water in the first place. Water recycling is a slow process that turns perspiration and piss into water. So distilling piss will only get you cleaner piss, which wouldn't be very drinkable. Now when they do get some water, then they can go ahead and distill it if they want to. But they need the water first.

Well they apparently have juniper bushes. You said the ship had gardens, If they're big enough to provide food for 50,000 people they must be like the ones in silent running, and they were big enough for forests! Why shouldn't they have apple trees? The point is fruit juices contain water and the water can be liberated by freezing or distilling. Science 101. A basic hydroponics plant would be a must on this kind of ship.

glenn84
08-18-2013, 02:16 PM
Kirk's father was sacrificing himself for his wife and son, not humanity. And they weren't running away from aliens that just got done wiping humanity off the face of the planet. THEY WERE EXPLORING! Two different things.

How many apple trees can you fit in an already cramped ship? And how many apples can a tree bear at any given time? Would it be enough for 50,000 people?

Hawkman
08-18-2013, 02:21 PM
I see a big recurring problem on this forum. Too many comparisons with stories written 60 years ago and not enough criticism on the actual story.

So what if glenn84 created believable characters and put them in an impossible situation, right? A story should only be evaluated on how it compares to other works written 6 decades ago. Story? Who cares about a story? How the hell did they get Gin on board? That's my first question. Even though he already explained that they were growing their own crops.

I have a question. Why don't you guys talk about the damn story? Stop nitpicking on the little things and look at the big picture. The man wanted to save everyone on board but by doing so he risked the chance of leaving his child fatherless. Jack himself was born on ARK when he wasn't supposed to be. His child is going to have to grow up on ARK as well. And you better believe people are going to push for an abortion.

Jack knew he was taking a big chance by going down to the planet. He was the most qualified on the ship and he wanted to get the water as fast as possible. If the Fish Heads showed up and offed him, then everyone on board the ship would be a little reluctant to abort his kid. He went down there and sacrificed himself for humanity. How the hell can we kill off his child?

Those are the elements that matter. Forget about the gin and the damn FTL. Read the story for crying out loud.

What we are criticising is sloppy writing and lazy plot development. Its not just about comparing the story with other stories, but if you can with this many parallels it's verging on plagiarism. It's about giving your audience something original. It's about developing your abilities as a storyteller and realising your own voice. This is not good storytelling. Its building a jigsaw puzzle out of other people's ideas and slapping a signature on the bottom. It's like painting by numbers. The scenario above is just a big narrative cliché. The difference between this piece and Routine, is that in Routine there was an original twist.

ralphr81
08-18-2013, 02:23 PM
Well the opening of the Star Trek reimagining by JJ Abrams (2009) had Kirk's father doing just that, and of course Spock heroically sacrificed himself for "the needs of the many" in The Wrath of Kahn, although they brought him back in the Search for Spock :D True, on this occasion he didn't take any baddies with him, but the "Screw You" ype remark before blowing yourself up to take out your adversaries is a staple cliché of action and combat genres. In Predator, of course, the alien did it to try and kill Schwarzenegger, which was a nice twist. :D And then there was the girl in Pitch Black who went back to try and save Riddick but got eaten by the monsters while Riddick got away.

That enough for you or do you want more?

I'm sorry Hawk you just lost all credibility with this post. Are you seriously comparing this story to Star Trek?

Hawkman
08-18-2013, 02:29 PM
You obviously haven't understood what I said or read what I replied to. Neither do you seem to have the least idea about narrative plot development or originality. Credibility in your eyes is therefore the least of my concerns.

ralphr81
08-18-2013, 02:30 PM
What we are criticising is sloppy writing and lazy plot development. Its not just about comparing the story with other stories, but if you can with this many parallels it's verging on plagiarism. It's about giving your audience something original. It's about developing your abilities as a storyteller and realising your own voice. This is not good storytelling. Its building a jigsaw puzzle out of other people's ideas and slapping a signature on the bottom. It's like painting by numbers. The scenario above is just a big narrative cliché. The difference between this piece and Routine, is that in Routine there was an original twist.

I don't see where you're criticizing sloppy writing in any of the previous posts. The only thing you're doing is comparing it to other previous stories. He decided to write a story that shared similarities with some of his favorite stories and made up his own world. How many times has that been done? I bet you need to count pretty high.

Harry Potter and Star Wars are virtually the same story. By your storytelling standards we should go ahead and sic the plagiarism police on JK Rowling. Michael Crichton copied Conan Doyle, maybe we should make believe Jurassic Park never happened?

Calidore
08-18-2013, 03:48 PM
I think when two critics start criticizing each others' criticism, we're getting a bit off topic, and I also think that for other people to get glenn84's submission thread closed on him would be the height of rudeness. Can we get back to constructive criticism of the story itself?

Calidore
08-18-2013, 04:09 PM
Hawk, I doubt they have apple trees on a ship.

Here you've given me a great opportunity to illustrate something I said before about using an influence as a seed rather than transplanting the whole tree. Ironically, I get to do it with a tree.

My first thought when I read your statement above was, "Well, why not?" A garden's good for morale, apples are delicious and good for you, and it's a bit of incidental CO2 recycling. Then I thought of Eden as a ship, with an Adam and Eve breaking the rules (stealing apples?) and being evicted onto a habitable but uninhabited world.

Now, having that be the story would be too lame for words (and putting a big reveal at the end that the couple's names were Adam and Eve would be even worse, possibly criminal), so let's take it forward. One single couple populating a world = massive inbreeding and all the problems that come with that. So, much later another ship comes to this world and you can have Deliverance in space.

Or, let's go sideways. Many, many generations later, the inhabitants have become divided along the lines of somewhat and severely impaired, with the expected strife between the more relatively "civilized" and the "savages." In drops a ship from an advanced civilization, and now you have a three-way conflict between the equivalent of Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, and modern (well, future) man.

The obvious POV for the story would be the "modern" man, but let's think sideways again. The "neanderthals" could be the underdog, constantly abused and exploited by the more intelligent "cro-magnons", and then someone even smarter and stronger arrives to pile it on. Or the "cro-magnons" become the underdog, having to constantly defend against the savages and now these highly advanced newcomers.

So, where did all these ideas come from? Just a few minutes of thinking about an offhand mention of an apple tree on a spaceship. The original tree becomes an insignificant object in the far past of the story, or doesn't even need to exist in it at all. That's what I meant.

ralphr81
08-18-2013, 04:12 PM
I think when two critics start criticizing each others' criticism, we're getting a bit off topic, and I also think that for other people to get glenn84's submission thread closed on him would be the height of rudeness. Can we get back to the story itself?

I agree. As I've already mentioned, I thought the story was pretty top notch. You have believable characters in an impossible situation. He paces the story correctly. Fast for action and slow for descriptive and longer dialogue scenes. His structure looks a little like this:

Camera out(Description of MC)-Camera in(Conflict with water running low)-Camera out(Dialogue with mother)- Camera in(When he finds out his girlfriend is pregnant) -Camera in(When he argues with his mother)- Camera out(With the flashback scene)- Camera in(The finale). Notice how in the ending he focuses on the action and doesn't get into the MC's head. That's how an action scene is supposed to be written.

Also, he follows the basic plot elements to the letter: conflict begins, things go right, things go WRONG, final victory (or defeat), and wrap-up.

Calidore
08-18-2013, 07:56 PM
Few more thoughts:


I see what you're saying. But isn't all Sci-Fi a bit cliche? I mean everything is just a rehash of previous works. How many space stories can really be different? You're either exploring(i.e. Star Trek) or you're running away from something.

No, no, no, no, no. There can be as many different space stories as there are people writing them, and the same goes for any genre. All genres have their tropes, but all tropes can be subverted or used in an original way. Googling "best SF novels" will get you numerous top 100 lists; read the descriptions of those books and look at the variety there.

Also, since you're doing stories now, hit the library and/or used bookstores and pick up some collections of "best SF stories" and read through them. Not all will work for you, but again, you'll see lots of variety and learn about writing from some of the masters.


Can you imagine spending 20 years in space without any alcohol? I picked Gin specifically because it's made with juniper berries, which can be grown.

Ralphr81 complains about nitpicking details, but details that are in the story need to be made to work with the story. For example, gin is made from grain mash and flavored with juniper berries. Extra water would be needed for 1) growing the berries and 2) diluting the gin to drinkability. The berries could be stored rather than grown, but that still leaves problems. Why is the gin being made on-site rather than stored in bottles? Also, you talk about spending 20 years in space without alcohol, but how about 20 years with only gin? If they're going to have a bar, why not a full bar?

I agree with Hawkman here. Having insufficient water but plenty of alcohol is a WTF inconsistency that takes the reader right out of the story. If you want it to work, you're going to have to either improve the water recycling to a sustainable level or lose the gin. Since the water shortage adds conflict and tension to the story, while the bar is a completely irrelevant detail, removing that would be my vote.

The water situation as related also brings up questions. The average household uses several gallons a day. Even assuming increased efficiency in the delivery, storing 20 years of water for 50,000 people is incredibly inefficient in terms of space and fuel, both of which will have hard limits. This isn't a big deal to fix; you don't say how long they've been in the ship in the first place, so if it turned out to be a longer-than-expected voyage and a naturally increasing population, or maybe some unforeseen problem, what isn't sustainable now may have been at the start. This is another example of a question readers will leave the story to ask, so you want to answer it yourself before they ask it to keep the story flowing.

Of course, much more inefficient is having 50,000 people actually actively living on the ship. Why no stasis?

Gene Wilder said that Mel Brooks gave him some great writing advice when he was working on the screenplay for Young Frankenstein: When you think you're finished, pick up the biggest hammer you can find and whack the story as hard as you can from every angle. If it holds up, then you're done.


As for The Last Speck, I'm sure it's a great read, but I'm not really interested in Sci-Fi that spends too much time explaining Science. I want Sci-Fi that focuses on the characters.

Lokasenna hardly goes into the science at all. His story is about events more than science, but also not so much about individual characters.


The weaponry of the Fish Heads is organic. So I don't know how the military could reverse engineer that.

You're the writer, so they can if you want them to. Organic can be disassembled and analyzed just as well as inorganic. If it's not germane to the story, though, there's no need to bother.


Water recycling is a slow process that turns perspiration and piss into water. So distilling piss will only get you cleaner piss, which wouldn't be very drinkable. Now when they do get some water, then they can go ahead and distill it if they want to. But they need the water first.

Hate to say it, but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Urine is roughly 95% water. That would not be allowed to go to waste on a spaceship; all that's needed is to remove what our bodies put into it and you have water again. That's standard SF spaceship tech, as is FTL travel, so you don't need to go into detail or even bring it up unless it matters to the story.


I've never seen or read a Sci-Fi story where the MC sacrifices himself, giving up his seat on the ship in the process, so that humanity and his child can live on. Do you know of any?

Yikes. You really need to read more so you can identify cliches as such and avoid them.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSacrifice


Harry Potter and Star Wars are virtually the same story.

?!?!

ralphr81
08-18-2013, 08:13 PM
Calidore do some research. Please. JK Rowling literally took the plot from Star Wars and turned it into the Wizarding World. Here are a few of the similarities from TheForce.Net:

Harry Potter / Luke Skywalker - Both Harry and Luke are orphans (or at least Luke appears to be). Neither one really knows what happened to their parents. They never knew them, either. Luke and Harry both live with their Aunt and Uncle in alife that is tedious, boring, and unexciting. They long for something more in life. Their lives are both turned upside down one day when a strange character (Hagrid or Obi-Wan Kenobi) arrives to tell them the truth about their background, parents, and true potential. Luke and Harry both discover that they have strong potential in magic or the Force. As both characters rise above great danger to save their friends from certain doom, we get a glimpse of the great future ahead of them.

Voldemort / The Emperor- Voldemort is an evil sorcerer who killed Harry Potter's parents. You could say the Emperor killed Luke's father, Anakin. Voldemort and the Emperor both want to rule the world and they will do anything to make that happen. Voldemort kills many wizards and witches. The Emperor kills many Jedi. Both Voldemort and the Emperor have evil minions who do their bidding. Both are masters of the Dark Side. At one point, when talking about Voldemort, Harry Potteryells out, "I'm never going over to the Dark Side!" Sound familiar? In the end, both evil characters were defeated by one thing - love. Voldemort is defeated because of Harry's mother's love for him. The Emperor is defeated because of Anakin's love for Luke.

Professor Dumbledore / Obi-Wan Kenobi - Dumbledore is kind of the guardian and mentor of Harry Potter. Obi-Wan is the guardian and mentor for Luke. Both characters know the full histories of our heroes, but they're not quite willing to tellthem everything yet. Dumbledore rescued baby Harry after his encounter with Voldemort and delivered him to Aunt Petuniaand Uncle Vernon. Kenobi rescued Luke and hid him from the Emperor with Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.



One last question. Why haven't you evaluated his story yet Cal? You continue to nitpick on similarities with other stories but have yet to actually say anything about the story itself. Why is that?

Do you even know the process for water recycling? In order to create urine you need WATER. 20 years of traveling in space will tap any ship out of their water reserves. Water recycling systems aren't 100 % efficient. They don't process the water at the same speed people create urine. So if it’s even 10% inefficient you're eventually going to tap out of clean water.

glenn84
08-18-2013, 08:52 PM
Are you guys really still comparing this story to other stories? This isn't criticism, just personal opinions on what you think Sci Fi should be. Hard science has a place--in hard SF. I write stories not science projects.

Delta40
08-18-2013, 08:54 PM
Great comparison Ralph. I am neither a star wars or harry potter fan and now I know why!!! So JK Rowling takes a story and sets it in a different time....lol.

ralphr81
08-18-2013, 08:55 PM
Are you guys really still comparing this story to other stories? This isn't criticism, just personal opinions on what you think Sci Fi should be. Hard science has a place--in hard SF. I write stories not science projects.

I agree, it seems Cal and Hawk are of the Hard SF variety. They don't really care for story. And they can't stand world building, maybe because they can't do it themselves.

ralphr81
08-18-2013, 08:59 PM
Great comparison Ralph. I am neither a star wars or harry potter fan and now I know why!!! So JK Rowling takes a story and sets it in a different time....lol.

Different time, different place. Here's some more similarities(and remember Harry Potter has grossed billions!):

Hogwarts / The Jedi Temple - Hogwarts is the boarding school where children go to learn magic and become wizards. The Jedi Temple is where young children go to learn about the Force and become Jedi. Both places are run by masters who teach the children their basic lessons.

Magic / The Force - Only certain special people in the Harry Potter world have the potential to become wizards and witches. Same with the Jedi. Nobody believes in magic in Harry Potter's real world. Most people in the Star Wars Universe don't believe in the Force. Both are considered hocus pocus and a bogus religion. Both allow users to do extraordinary things.

Magic Wands / Lightsabers - In the Harry Potter books, wizards use magic wands as special tools to help them manifest their powers. The Jedi use lightsabers as their tools of the trade. Wands and lightsabers are unique to the individual users. Both pick theirs out based on unique personal criteria.

Flying Brooms / Starships - Brooms are the vehicle of choice among wizards and witches. Starships are the vehicle of choice in Star Wars. In both worlds the vehicles are customized to be tough and fast. And the faster, the better. Wizards casually chat about the latest and fastest model of flying broom. Stormtroopers casually chat about the latest model of ship.

Quidditch / Pod Racing - Quidditch is a dangerous sport played on flying brooms by half insane competitors. It is fast, furious, and someone can easily be killed if they don't pay attention. Cheating and rough play is not unheard of. Pod Racing has a different form of play and objective, but in the end they are very similar. Both sports are played with the fastest and best models of brooms or pods. There is also a lot of betting done on both sports.

Uncle Owen / Uncle Vernon - Both characters took in their nephews after a time of crisis and both knew the truth about their parents yet refused to tell them. Owen thought Luke's father was foolish to run off and become a Jedi. Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon both thought Harry's mother was foolish to go off to become a wizard. In fact, at one point Aunt Petunia says, "I was the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak!" They refuse to let Harry go to Hogwarts, and Uncle Owen refuses to let Luke go to the Academy. There is one key difference between Uncle Owen and Uncle Vernon. Owen seemed to genuinely love Luke and take care of him. Vernon hated Harry and treated him slightly better than an animal.

Wizards & Witches / Jedi - Both Jedi and wizards are treated as oddities in the real world. Wizards are looked at as freaks or eccentric kooks. Jedi are looked at as people following "hokey religions". Uncle Owen even calls Obi-Wan a "crazy wizard". In both worlds the characters wear hooded robes as standard uniform.

Death Eaters / Sith - There are minions of evil in both worlds. The Death Eaters are the followers of Voldemort. Darth Maul is the minion of Darth Sidious (or The Emperor). In both worlds the characters are followers of the "Dark Side" and they practice an evil form of wizardry or the Force. Both Darth Maul and a Death Eater in the Sorcerer's Stone wear black, hooded cloaks.

Ministry of Magic / Jedi Council - In the Harry Potter books a group of wizards watches over the mystical realm and makes important decisions about what goes on. In Star Wars, the Jedi Council is a ruling group of the most powerful Jedi that make important decisions in matters of the Force.

Ghosts / Jedi Spirits - Ghosts occasionally appear in both worlds. Jedi Spirits occasionally return to guide and help Luke. Ghosts at Hogwarts act as guardians of students in various dorms. However, in the Harry Potter world they appear more frequently and are sometimes considered more of as a nuisance.

Owls / Droids - In the Harry Potter world, wizards use owls to transport messages. They also act as companions and pets to the wizards. In Star Wars, Luke has R2-D2. He is a companion to Luke and even helped Princess Leia transport a message.

Calidore
08-18-2013, 09:17 PM
Calidore do some research. Please. JK Rowling literally took the plot from Star Wars and turned it into the Wizarding World. Here are a few of the similarities from TheForce.Net:

More research than having read the Harry Potter series, having seen the original Star Wars movies on their theatrical release, and being familiar with or having seen many of the sources that George Lucas was influenced by/borrowed outright from? Research into Harry Potter's influences that stops at Star Wars (and consists of a Star Wars website) isn't much research at all.

Everything mentioned in that theforce.net article is much older and more widespread than Star Wars, which itself has hardly an original bone in its body. I'd recommend starting by reading Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces, which details the nobody-becomes-somebody heroic story back to ancient times. It's also the plot of many (most?) epic fantasies written since Tolkien. While you're reading, watch Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress and the original Flash Gordon serial.




One last question. Why haven't you evaluated his story yet Cal? You continue to nitpick on similarities with other stories but have yet to actually say anything about the story itself. Why is that?

Say what? Not once have I compared this story to others, and I've only done that for one story out of the three he posted. Meanwhile, I've written several posts offering advice and suggestions on the stories themselves. You seem more into arguing than checking the validity of what you're arguing about, which never turns out well for the arguer.


Do you even know the process for water recycling? In order to create urine you need WATER. 20 years of traveling in space will tap any ship out of their water reserves. Water recycling systems aren't 100 % efficient. They don't process the water at the same speed people create urine. So if it’s even 10% inefficient you're eventually going to tap out of clean water.

Um, in an SF story, the actual process for water recycling and the efficiency is whatever the author says it is. The necessary end result is, water becomes urine becomes water becomes urine etc. I agree that 100% efficiency would be unrealistic and even offered that to glenn84 as an explanation above. Even more realistic in the context would be having everyone in stasis except necessary crew. Also, that wouldn't affect the story itself one bit as the general population has no direct effect on the plot.

glenn84
08-18-2013, 09:17 PM
Different time, different place. Here's some more similarities(and remember Harry Potter has grossed billions!):

Hogwarts / The Jedi Temple - Hogwarts is the boarding school where children go to learn magic and become wizards. The Jedi Temple is where young children go to learn about the Force and become Jedi. Both places are run by masters who teach the children their basic lessons.

Magic / The Force - Only certain special people in the Harry Potter world have the potential to become wizards and witches. Same with the Jedi. Nobody believes in magic in Harry Potter's real world. Most people in the Star Wars Universe don't believe in the Force. Both are considered hocus pocus and a bogus religion. Both allow users to do extraordinary things.

Magic Wands / Lightsabers - In the Harry Potter books, wizards use magic wands as special tools to help them manifest their powers. The Jedi use lightsabers as their tools of the trade. Wands and lightsabers are unique to the individual users. Both pick theirs out based on unique personal criteria.

Flying Brooms / Starships - Brooms are the vehicle of choice among wizards and witches. Starships are the vehicle of choice in Star Wars. In both worlds the vehicles are customized to be tough and fast. And the faster, the better. Wizards casually chat about the latest and fastest model of flying broom. Stormtroopers casually chat about the latest model of ship.

Quidditch / Pod Racing - Quidditch is a dangerous sport played on flying brooms by half insane competitors. It is fast, furious, and someone can easily be killed if they don't pay attention. Cheating and rough play is not unheard of. Pod Racing has a different form of play and objective, but in the end they are very similar. Both sports are played with the fastest and best models of brooms or pods. There is also a lot of betting done on both sports.

Uncle Owen / Uncle Vernon - Both characters took in their nephews after a time of crisis and both knew the truth about their parents yet refused to tell them. Owen thought Luke's father was foolish to run off and become a Jedi. Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon both thought Harry's mother was foolish to go off to become a wizard. In fact, at one point Aunt Petunia says, "I was the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak!" They refuse to let Harry go to Hogwarts, and Uncle Owen refuses to let Luke go to the Academy. There is one key difference between Uncle Owen and Uncle Vernon. Owen seemed to genuinely love Luke and take care of him. Vernon hated Harry and treated him slightly better than an animal.

Wizards & Witches / Jedi - Both Jedi and wizards are treated as oddities in the real world. Wizards are looked at as freaks or eccentric kooks. Jedi are looked at as people following "hokey religions". Uncle Owen even calls Obi-Wan a "crazy wizard". In both worlds the characters wear hooded robes as standard uniform.

Death Eaters / Sith - There are minions of evil in both worlds. The Death Eaters are the followers of Voldemort. Darth Maul is the minion of Darth Sidious (or The Emperor). In both worlds the characters are followers of the "Dark Side" and they practice an evil form of wizardry or the Force. Both Darth Maul and a Death Eater in the Sorcerer's Stone wear black, hooded cloaks.

Ministry of Magic / Jedi Council - In the Harry Potter books a group of wizards watches over the mystical realm and makes important decisions about what goes on. In Star Wars, the Jedi Council is a ruling group of the most powerful Jedi that make important decisions in matters of the Force.

Ghosts / Jedi Spirits - Ghosts occasionally appear in both worlds. Jedi Spirits occasionally return to guide and help Luke. Ghosts at Hogwarts act as guardians of students in various dorms. However, in the Harry Potter world they appear more frequently and are sometimes considered more of as a nuisance.

Owls / Droids - In the Harry Potter world, wizards use owls to transport messages. They also act as companions and pets to the wizards. In Star Wars, Luke has R2-D2. He is a companion to Luke and even helped Princess Leia transport a message.

A friend of mine told me of the comparisons when I was in 6th grade, but I never believed him. Wow it's the same story! JK Rowling lied to everyone and got away with it!

ralphr81
08-18-2013, 09:22 PM
More research than having read the Harry Potter series, having seen the original Star Wars movies on their theatrical release, and being familiar with or having seen many of the sources that George Lucas was influenced by/borrowed outright from? Research into Harry Potter's influences that stops at Star Wars (and consists of a Star Wars website) isn't much research at all.

Everything mentioned in that theforce.net article is much older and more widespread than Star Wars, which itself has hardly an original bone in its body. I'd recommend starting by reading Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces, which details the nobody-becomes-somebody heroic story back to ancient times. It's also the plot of many (most?) epic fantasies written since Tolkien. While you're reading, watch Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress and the original Flash Gordon serial.




Say what? Not once have I compared this story to others, and I've only done that for one story out of the three he posted. Meanwhile, I've written several posts offering advice and suggestions on the stories themselves. You seem more into arguing than checking the validity of what you're arguing about, which never turns out well for the arguer.



Um, in an SF story, the actual process for water recycling and the efficiency is whatever the author says it is. The necessary end result is, water becomes urine becomes water becomes urine etc. I agree that 100% efficiency would be unrealistic and even offered that to glenn84 as an explanation above. Even more realistic in the context would be having everyone in stasis except necessary crew. Also, that wouldn't affect the story itself one bit as the general population has no direct effect on the plot.

It's not hard SF! lol. He never explained how efficient the water recycling system was because he wanted to get on with the STORY. He let the reader come up with their own reason as to why it's not efficient. In Hard SF, I agree, you have to explain how every little thing works. But not in character driven SF. Can you imagine how boring Heir to the Empire would have been if Timothy Zahn decided to explain how blaster bolts worked?

Cal you don't want me to keep going with the Star Wars-Harry Potter similarities...Trust me there's A LOT more. Here's a comedy stand up detailing the similarities just for fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbQEryw2f38

I can tell you and Hawk are Hard SF fans, but don't bash glenn84's work just because it doesn't fit your bill. There are a ton of soft SF fans out there, myself included.

Calidore
08-18-2013, 09:49 PM
I agree, it seems Cal and Hawk are of the Hard SF variety. They don't really care for story.

Can't speak for Hawkman, but completely incorrect re: me. Otherwise I'd be suggesting he fill in the holes in the science rather than the holes in the story. Make sense?

In fact, I specifically said above:


That's standard SF spaceship tech, as is FTL travel, so you don't need to go into detail or even bring it up unless it matters to the story.

Ditto on analyzing the organic tech of the Fish Heads:


If it's not germane to the story, though, there's no need to bother.

Again, you're ranting without reading first.


It's not hard SF! lol. He never explained how efficient the water recycling system was because he wanted to get on with the STORY. He let the reader come up with their own reason as to why it's not efficient. In Hard SF, I agree, you have to explain how every little thing works. But not in character driven SF.

You are correct in that tech of the system itself doesn't need to be detailed, but if that system is present and yet water is short, the reader's question of "Howcum?" should be anticipated and answered proactively.

ralphr81
08-18-2013, 10:03 PM
Can't speak for Hawkman, but completely incorrect re: me. Otherwise I'd be suggesting he fill in the holes in the science rather than the holes in the story. Make sense?

In fact, I specifically said above:



Ditto on analyzing the organic tech of the Fish Heads:



Again, you're ranting without reading first.



You are correct in that tech of the system itself doesn't need to be detailed, but if that system is present and yet water is short, the reader's question of "Howcum?" should be anticipated and answered proactively.

It's a short story though. For a short story under 5 k words I was amazed he was able to write this in the first place!

Details from the story: Jack is the MC, he has a GF and mother, his father died in a battle a couple years back. The ship is running low on water after 20 years of searching for a new home while having to run away from the Fish Heads. They figured they would have found a new colony to repopulate by now, but it hasn't happened. They decide to start searching for a water bearing planet. They find one. But it's too risky, the Fish Heads can be anywhere. They need to get in and get out fast. Jack is the only pilot on board capable of doing that. But he just found out his girlfriend is expecting. His mother is pissed at him for taking such a risk--believe it or not that's what mothers do! But Jack knows he's the only one capable of doing it quickly. And maybe, just maybe, he can avoid confrontation among the ship's inhabitants when his child is born if he doesn't make it back. So for him it's kind of like a win-win situation...Something that his own father did for him. Now if glenn wants to expand on the story, the possibilities are endless. Hopefully he does, because I'm definitely intrigued.

I understand criticism is important, but try to stay within the boundaries of the storytelling medium. This story achieves everything that it was set out to achieve. I don't think this kind of story would have been fun if he decided to describe how the FTL works, how the Earth was destroyed, how the quantum levitation works, or how the water recycling system operates. Every Sci Fi story ever written shares some similarities with previous works, it's inevitable. The trick is to make your own world with the same Lego pieces.

And Hawk The Fish Heads in this story have nothing in common with The Ood from Doctor Who. The Ood are squidlike and they are a slave race who become hostile. The Fish Heads in this story seem much more sophisticated.

glenn84
08-19-2013, 04:25 AM
Glenn84, check out Lokasenna's new post "The Last Speck" for a good example.

I don't understand how you can compare this story to Lokasenna's story. Two completely different stories.

Hawkman
08-19-2013, 07:02 AM
I'm not "hard SF". The point is that anything mentioned in the story has to have a relevance and not lead to a plot hole. Once you start down the road of introducing tech it has to be logically thought through and ironclad in its place, or the story looks really weak. Not mentioning the reasoning behind it in the tale, and then coming up with off the cuff explanations after the event when challenged isn't the solution.

The problems with your characters and scenarios within this tale are serious. There's nothing wrong with borrowing ideas. You just have to make them your own. This you have signally failed to do in this story. You claim you're interested in character, but all your characters are cyphers, Stock characters from the genre, cut and pasted into a standard scenario. All my criticism of this piece is to do with the storytelling. There is no character arc, no development of personality. Your hero is introduced from the start as someone who puts others first. He gives his water to the man who had his stolen, he volunteers for the dangerous mission, and then he does what we all know he's going to do, and dies heroically so the ship can get away. Frankly you could just have written the last scene and left it at that. The man was born to die heroically.

However, If you had made him a selfish arrogant little sod who went through a number of experiences that changed him, or so that at the last he did something unexpectedly heroic, then the character would have been seen to grow. But that doesn't alter the fact that as has been discussed by both calidor and me, the plot is full of holes too. This tale is not good genre writing and not good character writing, and as long as you stubbornly defend it as such, you won't learn how to improve as a writer.

Live and be well - H

Calidore
08-19-2013, 09:02 AM
I don't understand how you can compare this story to Lokasenna's story. Two completely different stories.

Correct. I wasn't comparing them, I was pointing out Lokasenna's story as an example of an old idea (immortality) handled in an interesting and logical way.0

You said you wrote this in 12 hours. That's not enough time to finish a story unless you're very, very good and lucky enough to come up with a story simple enough to be completed in 12 hours. Writing is actually more work than I think you think it is. You wrote this down and proofed it well, but never took the Hammer of Structural Integrity to it, which is what Hawkman and I have tried to do.

It's ironic, because had you spent as much time and effort tearing apart your own story as you've tried to do your critics' feedback, you might have something.

And you and Ralph constantly making exactly the same incorrect claims about what Hawkman and I have said to you is making me wonder if you're really two different people.

Calidore
08-19-2013, 09:17 AM
It's a short story though.

How is being a short story an excuse for anything? We're talking about the substance, not the length. Plugging the holes won't make it a novella.


I understand criticism is important, but try to stay within the boundaries of the storytelling medium.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Again, we're trying to help strengthen the structure of the story itself, not go outside it. Could you elaborate?


This story achieves everything that it was set out to achieve. I don't think this kind of story would have been fun if he decided to describe how the FTL works, how the Earth was destroyed, how the quantum levitation works, or how the water recycling system operates.

Correct, and that goes with my own quotes above. Had he brought the story to a halt with irrelevant descriptions of the FTL, recycling, or "quantum levitation tech", I would have recommended taking that out. In fact, that last is a perfectly fine example of a descriptive technobabble buzzword. Nothing more is needed.


Every Sci Fi story ever written shares some similarities with previous works, it's inevitable. The trick is to make your own world with the same Lego pieces.

Yes.


And Hawk The Fish Heads in this story have nothing in common with The Ood from Doctor Who. The Ood are squidlike and they are a slave race who become hostile. The Fish Heads in this story seem much more sophisticated.

He didn't specify Ood. I'd assumed he meant the Silurians or Sea Devils. Myself, I pictured the Creature from the Black Lagoon.

Hawkman
08-19-2013, 10:09 AM
And you and Ralph constantly making exactly the same incorrect claims about what Hawkman and I have said to you is making me wonder if you're really two different people.

Yes, I was wondering that too.



He didn't specify Ood. I'd assumed he meant the Silurians or Sea Devils. Myself, I pictured the Creature from the Black Lagoon.

Actually I was thinking of those recent Whovian hominids, The Hath, from, 'The Doctor's Daughter,' who do indeed have fish heads and who were at war with Humans.

ralphr81
08-19-2013, 03:19 PM
Yes, I was wondering that too.



Actually I was thinking of those recent Whovian hominids, The Hath, from, 'The Doctor's Daughter,' who do indeed have fish heads and who were at war with Humans.

The Hath were part man, part fish if I remember correctly? And how many alien races does Doctor Who copy from the likes of Star Wars and Star Trek? The only thing you're doing Hawk is comparing this work with your favorite Sci-Fi. That reeks of fanboyism. Here's a list of reptilian and amphibian races used in countless Sci-Fi stories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reptilian_and_amphibian_alien_species

Calidore
08-19-2013, 03:51 PM
Actually I was thinking of those recent Whovian hominids, The Hath, from, 'The Doctor's Daughter,' who do indeed have fish heads and who were at war with Humans.

Ah, never saw that one.


And how many alien races does Doctor Who copy from the likes of Star Wars and Star Trek? The only thing you're doing Hawk is comparing this work with your favorite Sci-Fi. That reeks of fanboyism.

FWIW, Doctor Who predates both, though as all are concurrently-long-running franchises, I'm sure there's been three-way pollination.

Again, probably for the 1000th time, the issue isn't having influences or borrowing, it's regurgitation vs. creation. One can borrow or even steal and still use that nugget in a creative and original way. This story wouldn't have been original 50 years ago. It's tropes rewritten with nothing added. And the plot holes and structural problems have nothing whatsoever to do with originality or lack of. Clean those up and you still have a derivative story, but one that at least works within itself.

ralphr81
08-19-2013, 03:53 PM
How is being a short story an excuse for anything? We're talking about the substance, not the length. Plugging the holes won't make it a novella.



I'm not sure what you mean by this. Again, we're trying to help strengthen the structure of the story itself, not go outside it. Could you elaborate?



Correct, and that goes with my own quotes above. Had he brought the story to a halt with irrelevant descriptions of the FTL, recycling, or "quantum levitation tech", I would have recommended taking that out. In fact, that last is a perfectly fine example of a descriptive technobabble buzzword. Nothing more is needed.



Yes.



He didn't specify Ood. I'd assumed he meant the Silurians or Sea Devils. Myself, I pictured the Creature from the Black Lagoon.

Creature from the Black Lagoon? You can't be serious. You're comparing a Sci-Fi thriller to a horror story?

ralphr81
08-19-2013, 04:01 PM
I still don't understand how he's supposed to change it? It's on a spaceship for crying out loud! How many different ways can you write a story set on a spaceship? He writes his own story about people running away from aliens. Every woman on board is on birth control, which makes sense because what would happen if everyone began to have kids on a ship that only holds 50,000 people?

The story was believable, but the only thing you two can point out is the similarities of the alien race with other Sci-Fi stories. Even though he doesn't describe them! That's the funniest part about your supposed criticisms. Everything he doesn't describe in the story you're making up in your own head.

This is what you should be looking for when you decide to critique a story you just read:

Opening Line and Title – Did they grab the reader? How did they fit with the whole story? Were they attention grabbing?

Conflict – is their enough conflict (external and internal) to move the story on? Was the conflict clear? Was the conflict resolved or replaced by the end of the story?

Plot– Did the story flow well. Was the plot clear and believable? Did the story start in the right place?

Setting – Was there enough or too much description? Did the descriptions help to set the tone for the story? Were they consistent and accurate of the time/place?

Characterisation – Did the characters appear real? Could the reader empathise or dislike them? Were the characters accurate and consistent? Did the main character undergo some change during the story? Were there too many too little characters?

Dialogue – Was the dialogue believable, understandable? Was there enough dialogue to move the story on? Could you ‘hear’ the dialogue? Does each character have a unique voice?

Point of View – Was it consistent? Were there enough/too many? If the POV changed, would the reader be able to follow?

Show and Tell – Was there a good balance of show and tell? Was there enough detailed description where needed?

Grammar and Spelling – Were there many errors or common mistakes? Was there an overuse of any particular grammar symbol e.g. exclamation marks? Were there any clichés? Were these appropriate or overused?

Calidore
08-19-2013, 04:13 PM
Creature from the Black Lagoon? You can't be serious. You're comparing a Sci-Fi thriller to a horror story?

You really need to stop inventing statements that were never made. I'm getting worried about you suffocating under that huge pile of straw men you've buried yourself in. Read it again. I was sharing my initial mental image of "Fish Head". That's all. No comparison of the two completely dissimilar stories expressed, implied, or even considered.


I still don't understand how he's supposed to change it? It's on a spaceship for crying out loud! How many different ways can you write a story set on a spaceship?

I'm completely at a loss to answer this.

ralphr81
08-19-2013, 04:26 PM
You really need to stop inventing statements that were never made. I'm getting worried about you suffocating under that huge pile of straw men you've buried yourself in. Read it again. I was sharing my initial mental image of "Fish Head". That's all. No comparison of the two completely dissimilar stories expressed, implied, or even considered.



I'm completely at a loss to answer this.

Cal I have no idea how you were able to picture The Creature from the Black Lagoon in this story. That was an amphibious prehistoric reptile monster that lives in a lagoon. The Fish Heads in this story have advanced technological and evolutionary abilities.

Volya
08-19-2013, 04:46 PM
If it helps to have an alternate voice chime in rather than the same two people...

I did think the story was a bit dull; the dialogue and plot all seemed a bit predictable and I didn't really feel any emotion for any of the characters. I guess standard advice is just keep reading and writing and you get better naturally.

However I didn't see any fault in the technology side of things... It explains in the beginning that they have a water recycling system in place but it is still struggling to cope with the demands of the ships population, which makes sense to me (although I'm no scientist).

ralphr81
08-19-2013, 05:00 PM
If it helps to have an alternate voice chime in rather than the same two people...

I did think the story was a bit dull; the dialogue and plot all seemed a bit predictable and I didn't really feel any emotion for any of the characters. I guess standard advice is just keep reading and writing and you get better naturally.

However I didn't see any fault in the technology side of things... It explains in the beginning that they have a water recycling system in place but it is still struggling to cope with the demands of the ships population, which makes sense to me (although I'm no scientist).

Hmm interesting. I thought the dialogue was done well for what it was. He went onto the next scene immediately after the conversation was over. The pacing was also good. You have a character that just found out his gf is pregnant and then immediately finds out they located a planet that has water. So he's left with a dilemma.

The fact that he's never seen a tree or been to a barbecue, and can only picture them in books, is kind of sad. You feel for the guy from the beginning.

Volya
08-19-2013, 05:09 PM
Each to his own I suppose :)

I think it's hard for people to get good/useful feedback on their work when in general only a few people respond, so they usually only get one or two guys opinions on what constitutes a good story.

ralphr81
08-19-2013, 05:11 PM
Each to his own I suppose :)

I think it's hard for people to get good/useful feedback on their work when in general only a few people respond, so they usually only get one or two guys opinions on what constitutes a good story.

I agree 100%.

Delta40
08-19-2013, 09:20 PM
Hang on a mo - I've ran out of popcorn....

ralphr81
08-20-2013, 02:15 PM
Hang on a mo - I've ran out of popcorn....

Ha! You've been enjoying yourself haven't you? Check out this other big similarity to Harry Potter. It really is amazing she hasn't been sued yet:

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_influences_and_analogues: Science fiction author Orson Scott Card, in a fierce editorial in response to Rowling's copyright lawsuit against the Harry Potter Lexicon, claimed that her assertion that she had had her "words stolen" was rendered moot by the fact that he could draw numerous comparisons between her books and his own 1985 novel Ender's Game; in his words, "A young kid growing up in an oppressive family situation suddenly learns that he is one of a special class of children with special abilities, who are to be educated in a remote training facility where student life is dominated by an intense game played by teams flying in midair, at which this kid turns out to be exceptionally talented and a natural leader. He trains other kids in unauthorised extra sessions, which enrages his enemies, who attack him with the intention of killing him; but he is protected by his loyal, brilliant friends and gains strength from the love of some of his family members. He is given special guidance by an older man of legendary accomplishments who previously kept the enemy at bay. He goes on to become the crucial figure in a struggle against an unseen enemy who threatens the whole world."[60]

Delta40
08-20-2013, 07:33 PM
Personally I believe many a good tale holds the same key ingredients. Can an author be sued for taking those ingredients to produce their own tasty dish is another thing.

cafolini
08-20-2013, 09:28 PM
Personally I believe many a good tale holds the same key ingredients. Can an author be sued for taking those ingredients to produce their own tasty dish is another thing.

Only applications can be copyrighted or trademarked. Ideas independent of an actual application cannot be property. Some might sue but they will not be successful.

ralphr81
08-21-2013, 03:07 PM
Only applications can be copyrighted or trademarked. Ideas independent of an actual application cannot be property. Some might sue but they will not be successful.

I agree. Tolkien had many followers who wanted to write stories like he did. They never stole any of his applications. George R.R. Martin is a perfect example of this. He created his own idea but you can also tell he was heavily influenced by Tolkien's work.