July '13 / Hemingway Reading: For Whom the Bells Toll

[Scheherazade]

In July, we will be reading For Whom the Bells Tolls by Hemingway.

Please share your comments and thoughts in this thread.

[kev67]

I bought a copy today. Flicking through it, the first thing I noticed is it has a lot of dialogue, sometimes pages of it.

[Dark Muse]

That is one of the aspects of Hemingway's writing that I think sometimes causes certain mixed feelings in people about him. Personally it is something I quite enjoy about reading him. There is a certain brevity or minimalism to the way he writes which I appreciate.

I find that he is able to convey a scene quite well and really bring a moment to life without the use of excess words. I sometimes take issue with authors that are too verbose. But Hemingway knows how to really utilize the bear essentials in a way I find quite poignant. I believe he also knows how to convey human emotion very well.

In this book there is a certain abrupt, sort of matter-of-fact feel to the writing that I enjoy.

[Dark Muse]

One thing which somewhat baffles me about this book is Hemingway's use of thee and thou's it clearly does not fit in with the books time setting, and the use of it appears to be somewhat inconsistent.

[Charles Darnay]

It has to do with the translation of the Spanish dialect. Either that or it is a great satire on the notion of well spokeness.

Of all the Hemingway I have read this book has the best characters. Pablo is wonderful, as is his wife.

[Dark Muse]

I was wondering if it had something to do with the books namesake by John Donne

[Charles Darnay]

That is certainly a possibility. I'm trying to remember (and will have to look up) whether Robert Jordan uses the archaic as well, or is it just the Spanish rebels.

[Dark Muse]

At first I thought it was just the Spanish rebels but then in Chapter 4 I noticed that Robert Jordan spoke in the archaic as well.

[kev67]

I was wondering if it had something to do with the books namesake by John Donne

I haven't started reading the book yet, but I looked at the first few pages to find out how many chapters were in it. I see the book title came from a John Donne poem, the same one about no man being an island.

[Dark Muse]

I have to say that I just loved this:

"I have never heard such a tone of voice. It was grayer than a morning without sunrise"

I think that is one of the ways in which Hemingway can say so much within so few words. To me that one scentence conveys such a power of emotion. I find there is such a depth of feeling within this novel.

[kev67]

I have started reading it now. I think it's the first book I have read that is deliberately grammatically incorrect to suggest that they are speaking a foreign language. For example, there was a passage spoken by General Golz which was rather ungrammatical, but then you would expect some difficulty in understanding when the speaker is Russian, the listener is American (presumably) and neither are communicating in their native language. Another example was when Robert Jordan replies to Pablo about another bomb maker, Kashkin, "He is dead since April". I suppose it was written that way to reflect Spanish grammar. I am guessing Spanish is similar to French in that perfect tense of to die is formed with to be rather that to have.

[kev67]

I wondered about the advanced age of Anselmo. 68 seems quite an age to be carrying boxes of explosive up mountainsides. I heard a radio programme once which discussed how some Spanish civil war veterans continued fighting against the Nazis in the French Resistance during WW2. One of the British officers sent to coordinate them remarked how they were often not young, often in their fifties. I know some septuagenarians from my running club who take part in long distance runs across hilly country, so maybe 68 is not unrealistic.

The partisans described in chapter 1 seem pretty different to the POUM volunteers described by George Orwell in Homage to Catalonia.

[cafolini]

A 70-year-man completed the more than 2000-mile Apalachean trail. 68 might not be that old. Age is relative to health, not to statistics, regardless of the fact that statistics, properly used, have a lot to say.

[Dark Muse]

I wondered about the advanced age of Anselmo. 68 seems quite an age to be carrying boxes of explosive up mountainsides. I heard a radio programme once which discussed how some Spanish civil war veterans continued fighting against the Nazis in the French Resistance during WW2. One of the British officers sent to coordinate them remarked how they were often not young, often in their fifties. I know some septuagenarians from my running club who take part in long distance runs across hilly country, so maybe 68 is not unrealistic.

The partisans described in chapter 1 seem pretty different to the POUM volunteers described by George Orwell in Homage to Catalonia.

I think I read or heard somewhere once that Alexander the Great had some veteran solders who up into their 50s would still march with him in full armor traversing long distances on foot.

[kev67]

A 70-year-man completed the more than 2000-mile Apalachean trail. 68 might not be that old. Age is relative to health, not to statistics, regardless of the fact that statistics, properly used, have a lot to say.

I once met a 70+ South African who was walking from Land's End to John O' Groats, which is from the southwest tip of England to the northeast tip of Scotland. That is only about 870 miles by the most direct route, but he was carrying a heavy backpack. I met him at Glencoe in the Scottish Highlands, and he must have been an early riser, because I saw him several miles down the road trudging to Fort William the next morning. Still, he said it had taken him six months and he was still over 150 miles away from the finish, which is taking your time if you ask me.

[kev67]

My copy of the book did not have a list of chapters at the front, but I see there are forty-two. That means I will have to read two a day to finish it this month :-/

I have only read two chapters, but it reminds me of those 60's and 70's WW2 stories like the Dirty Dozen or The Guns of Navarone in which a select group of specially talented fighters are sent on a suicide mission behind enemy lines. I will be interested to see if it turns out like that.

[kev67]

I thought the insertion of words like "unprintable" for the swear words uttered by Agustin in chapter 3 was rather pathetic. It would have been better to print the first letter and the correct number of asterisks, or to leave out the swearing altogether if it was not possible to write swear words at the time the book was published.

[Dark Muse]

I thought the insertion of words like "unprintable" for the swear words uttered by Agustin in chapter 3 was rather pathetic. It would have been better to print the first letter and the correct number of asterisks, or to leave out the swearing altogether if it was not possible to write swear words at the time the book was published.

Though it can be a bit annoying, in a way I can see the use of the substituting swear words with "unprintable" as being a way of keeping the integrity of it intending to appear as if this work is being translated from Spanish. Though it can be awkward in reading, it is a way of suggesting that such words were omitted from the text.

To leave the words out altogether would perhaps not do full justice to the characters or give a false impression as most likely realistically such individuals no doubt would have swore quite freely.

I see it as being almost a sort of protest or snub at the publishers, because he is not trying to hide the fact that he is using swear words but quite bluntly stating he was being censored from doing so.

[Tobeornotobe]

How Hemingway portrays woman was brutal.

[cafolini]

How Hemingway portrays woman was brutal.



Might be a lot better. Brutal from Brutus. A lot better than Caesar.

[kev67]

I was a bit puzzled by Robert Jordan's physiological reaction when he had thoughts about young ladies. His throat swelled. I think this must be code for something else that was swelling.

This book is somehow not what I was expecting.

[kev67]

I wonder whether Hemmingway influenced a lot of later war films. In many of those classic 50s, 60s and 70s war films, the first half of the film would be scene setting, establishing the characters, resolving difficulties, outlining the mission and training. In the second half, the action would finally get under way. It's a bit like that in this book, except there is no training and the fighters are irregulars, not servicemen. I am hundred pages in and they are still all talking around the cave.

It reminds me of a book called Trapp's War by Brian Callison, which I read when I was a teenager, but I have not read many books of this type.

[Charles Darnay]

The wonderful thing about this novel (and Farewell To Arms in the same way - is that they are not war books. They are set during the war, explicitly on the frontlines - but it is about the people and the interactions. Hemingway was a medic in WWI and a reporter in the Spanish Civil War: this is what he is drawing on. For Whom The Bell Tolls is the story a group of people, not the struggle itself.

[cafolini]

The wonderful thing about this novel (and Farewell To Arms in the same way - is that they are not war books. They are set during the war, explicitly on the frontlines - but it is about the people and the interactions. Hemingway was a medic in WWI and a reporter in the Spanish Civil War: this is what he is drawing on. For Whom The Bell Tolls is the story a group of people, not the struggle itself.

Very good estimate. True.

[kev67]

Chapter 10 was a departure from what I was expecting. It now no longer reminds me The Guns of Naverone, and I have changed sides to the Fascists.

[Charles Darnay]

Maria starts to get really annoying around this point. Certainly not the most likeable female character created.

[Scheherazade]

I have only read the first 3 chapters yet but wondering why Robert Jordan is continuously referred to with his full name while all the other with their first names.

Any thoughts?

[Charles Darnay]

It sounds cooler than just Robert?

I think it helps designate Robert Jordan as a higher class than the rebels.

[Dark Muse]

Maria starts to get really annoying around this point. Certainly not the most likeable female character created.


I have to admit I actually like Maria. I guess in my own way I feel like I can understand her. I rather enjoy the scenes of her and Robert Jordan together.

I have to say I thought one of the most poignant moments in the book was when Anselmo reflects upon his regrets about having to kill and sees to try and find absolution. It is in Chapter 15 I think.

I thought it was quite a chilling sign of the times (and war time in general) when he makes the statement "All that I am sorry for is the killing. But surely there will be an opportunity to atone for that because for a sin of that sort that so many bear, certainly some just relief will be devised."

An act that is normally considered to be one of the most heinous things a person can do, is regulated to something so common place.

[Dark Muse]

It sounds cooler than just Robert?

I think it helps designate Robert Jordan as a higher class than the rebels.


Yes I think this might be true, as the others also make jokes about him being Don Robeto.

[kev67]

Maybe he introduced himself as Robert Jordan and the Spaniards were unsure how to address him, he being foreign.

[Scheherazade]

It is not only the other characters that refer him like that. The narrator always calls him "Robert Jordan" as well.

[kev67]

Chapter 10.

It's odd that Hemmingway censors swear words when the violence is so horrific. I doubt Quentin Tarrantino could film that.

The reference to the worthless drunks reminded me of a history book called The Pursuit of the Millenium by Norman Cohn. It was real Name of the Rose stuff about Medieval heresies. Sometimes a charismatic leader would start a new heretical sect with an emphasis on poverty and brotherhood. They would start rampaging through the countryside and attack rich people, especially the clergy. Resentful peasants and especially drunken layabouts would eagerly join in. Then the guards would catch up and that would be that.

[Dark Muse]

Chapter 10.

It's odd that Hemmingway censors swear words when the violence is so horrific. I doubt Quentin Tarrantino could film that..

It is more of a comment upon society that Hemingway. He was forced to censor the swear words because the publishers would not print such words. On the other hand apparently society had not qualms about violence. Not so different from today really. While swearing is not quite the taboo it used to be, people will make a big todoo about nudity and sex, and barely raise an eyebrow when it comes to showing graphic violence on TV.

[kev67]

It is not only the other characters that refer him like that. The narrator always calls him "Robert Jordan" as well.

Yes, it is odd.

[kev67]

Maria starts to get really annoying around this point. Certainly not the most likeable female character created.

Are you sure you mean Maria? I thought Pilar was the pain in the neck. Maria is only annoying if you are a feminist.

I was amused by all the talk about the earth moving after Robert and Maria's hump in the heather. I wonder if this book is where the phrase comes from.

[Charles Darnay]

I love Pilar! No, my problem with Maria is how two dimensional she is, particularly when compared to other Hemingway women - such as Catherine and Brett.

[Dark Muse]

I love Pilar! No, my problem with Maria is how two dimensional she is, particularly when compared to other Hemingway women - such as Catherine and Brett.

Even though I like Maria I can understand that. It is true she is far less complex than many of Hemingway's other female characters. And I agree Pilar is great, and quite interesting. She is certainly an example of a very strong and independent woman.

I have to say I was somewhat amused, and somewhat annoyed with Pilar's story about the Bullfighter, it seemed like something of an unnecessary diverge from the story and just kind of felt like Hemingway letting his own passion for bullfighting get in the way. He could not resist the urge to try and find somewhere in the book to mention bullfighting. So he creates this little side story that I did not really see as being relevant or bearing any great significance, but just this kind of rambling detour.

[kev67]

Maria is weak, but to be fair, she has not much alternative. She was rescued by the others, so she owes everyone her life. She is told what to do all the time, especially by Pilar. She has no skills except home-making ones such as cooking or cleaning. Her only trump cards are her youth and beauty, and naturally enough she is drawn to the young, blond foreigner with the bomb making skills.

[kev67]

I have to admit I actually like Maria. I guess in my own way I feel like I can understand her. I rather enjoy the scenes of her and Robert Jordan together.

I have to say I thought one of the most poignant moments in the book was when Anselmo reflects upon his regrets about having to kill and sees to try and find absolution. It is in Chapter 15 I think.

I thought it was quite a chilling sign of the times (and war time in general) when he makes the statement "All that I am sorry for is the killing. But surely there will be an opportunity to atone for that because for a sin of that sort that so many bear, certainly some just relief will be devised."

An act that is normally considered to be one of the most heinous things a person can do, is regulated to something so common place.

Yes, that was a good chapter.

[Charles Darnay]

The story of the bullfighter helps in "humanizing" her a bit - showing that before they were "the rebels" they were ordinary people trying to live. But yes, I would not put it past Hemingway to slip a good bullfighting story in wherever he possible could.

[kev67]

How does the language in this book compare with Hemmingway's others? It often seems rather stilted. For example, in chapter 15 when the guards are chatting to each other, one of them replies to another: 'Yes. But they are not as formidable as our aviation. We have an aviation that is insuperable.' Is this an attempt to make English resemble Spanish, or does he always write like that?

[Dark Muse]

The story of the bullfighter helps in "humanizing" her a bit - showing that before they were "the rebels" they were ordinary people trying to live. But yes, I would not put it past Hemingway to slip a good bullfighting story in wherever he possible could.

Ah yes that is a good point. It does illustrate the way in which they were just ordinary people once before the war changed them into being rebels, having to live in caves in the mountains.

[kev67]

Friction is mounting in the cave. It is difficult to imagine yourself 1) deliberately winding up a dangerous killer, 2) shooting someone you know even vaguely. Don Roberto has bigger cojones than I have.

[kev67]

Chapter 18 was interesting. Was the British economist (Mitchell, I think) a reference to a real person? The only famous British economist I can think of from that time was John Maynard Keynes. I can't imagine him roving around Spain during the Spanish Civil War. If it wasn't a reference to a real person then it seems an odd thing to write about. Robert Jordan's reminiscence of his discussion with Karkov in Gaylords about the POUM putsch was interesting. George Orwell fought with the POUM and wrote with great bitterness on how the communists had betrayed and murdered his friends. Karkov implied that the POUM were not very effective. iirc Orwell said not many of them had had much military experience, and that also it could take a long time to make decisions, because, as they were an anarchist group, decisions had to be negotiated and voted for. Orwell said it was still worth the trouble. Orwell was nearly killed himself. He was shot through the throat by a fascist. I cannot remember exactly how he got out, but I bet the communists later regretted letting him slip through their fingers.

[Tobeornotobe]

How much have you guys read so far?

[kev67]

Just over half way through.

[Scheherazade]

I have read about 34%.

Finding this love affair all too implausible and too annoying. Putting me off from the book.

[Dark Muse]

I am on chapter 28 or 29, which is a bit more than half-way through

[kev67]

I am not sure how typical For Whom The Bell Tolls is of Hemmingway's writing, but he has a unique style, at least I have not read anything quite like this. I have never read anyone write in a stilted or ungrammatical English to suggest a foreign language. I have not read many books with quite so much dialogue. I have not read many books in with a character like Pilar who likes to recount long tales to the other characters.

Has anyone ever tried to film one of Hemmingway's books? I would have thought it would be a problem because the film maker would have to cut out so much of the talking, but if you cut out the talking then it's not Hemmingway.

[Dark Muse]

I am not sure how typical For Whom The Bell Tolls is of Hemmingway's writing, but he has a unique style, at least I have not read anything quite like this. I have never read anyone write in a stilted or ungrammatical English to suggest a foreign language. I have not read many books with quite so much dialogue. I have not read many books in with a character like Pilar who likes to recount long tales to the other characters.

Has anyone ever tried to film one of Hemmingway's books? I would have thought it would be a problem because the film maker would have to cut out so much of the talking, but if you cut out the talking then it's not Hemmingway.

The dialogue is very Hemingway like, the use of the stilted/ungrammatical language in order to try and give the effect of a foreign language is unique to this novel.

There have in fact been several of Hemingway's novels made into movies, including For Whom the Bell Tolls, though none recently most of them have been done between the 30s-50s.

There is a new version of The Old Man and the Sea

[kev67]

Chap 30: Odd the way Robert Jordan thinks about his father's suicide with his grandfather's pistol considering Hemmingway's own end.

[Scheherazade]

I am very annoyed with Maria and this whole improbable love affair.

[kev67]

She is not like Hemmingway's wife of the time, Martha Gellhorn.

[kev67]

The chapters from about chapter 30 are quite short, now that things are getting under way. I only have about four chapters and seventy pages left to read. I noticed the last two chapters, especially the last, are much longer. I expect the last chapter deals with he aftermath of the attack and a long, difficult escape, which not all of them make. I wonder if Maria makes it. I suspect for dramatic reasons either Robert or Maria has to die. Robert seems to be the main protagonist, but the book's not in first person narration, so it is not certain he will survive. I would say that apart from Pilar, most of the others have, at best, an evens chance. The Gypsy might make it because he is uncommitted and likely to make his own escape. Pablo has to lead the surviving band out, but that does not mean he will get to the end of the book. We could hold a sweepstake:


Robert Jordan
Maria
Pablo
Pilar
Anselmo
The Gipsy
Agustin
Fernando
Primitivo
Eladio

[kev67]

Chap 42:

The Andrés subplot was a good one. I was wrong-footed twice. I especially liked the description of the traffic jam caused by one truck crashing into the back of another in the dark. Hemmingway must have seen something like that to describe it so well.

There is now only one chapter left, which makes me worry Robert, Maria, Pilar and the rest.

[kev67]

Not bad, I'd like to give it four and a quarter stars.

I would not say it was the most affecting book I have ever read, but I do feel quite affected. The thing is, you always knew it would end up bad, if not on this mission then the next. The Republicans did lose after all.

I wonder if Hemmingway did inspire a lot of post-war war films. War films these days seem to be all action, but the post-war war films had a lot of build-up, then eventually the action gets under way and then there's a five minute come down at the end.

The biggest surprise to me was the character of Pablo. He wouldn't get into any war film, at least not as one of the good guys.

I also noticed a trick I've read in other books. A character says or does something, which even though said or done in a straightforward way, you as the reader do not take seriously or misread. Later on, it becomes significant.

[Scheherazade]

There is always that risk with the historical fiction, I guess... We all know what will happen.

Finished it two days ago and, boy, am I glad that it is over!

S P O I L E R S

Did not care about the plot, characters, or the style. The only good thing that came out, for me, was that I did some reading on the Spanish War, which is an era I am not familiar.

I did expect this kind of ending; admittedly something a little more dramatic but Hemingway did not offer that so that Jordan can die like a reeaaalll hero by sacrificing himself. Bah. Not impressed at all.

[kev67]

Hemmingway is one of those famous authors who I have heard of all my life, but never read. I was glad to read him at long last. He had a reputation for being a very macho writer, and so he was. He was also interesting and different. I did consider nominating The Old Man and the Sea. I remember my father telling me what a great book is was. It is also quite short, so a good way of checking Hemmingway out without committing yourself to a 300+ page novel. OTOH For Whom the Bell Tolls is often rated his best novel, and it is set in The Spanish Civil War. I have read George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia about the Spanish Civil War, and I recently found out Lauree Lee, the author of Cider With Rosie wrote an account of his time there, I assume fighting with the International Brigade. I hope to read that too.

[kev67]

One thing that surprised me was that I expected Pilar to continue the story about the day they killed some fascists in a cruel way. She said something about regretting letting the drunken good-for-nothings get involved. I wondered whether there was a second part of the story that explained why Pablo had lost interest in continuing the fight.