PDA

View Full Version : A Critique on "The Myth of Quantum Consciousness"



Evan Shaw
06-29-2013, 05:19 PM
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Quantum/QuantumConsciousness.pdf

To begin with, Dr. Stenger never misses the opportunity to bring up "the supernatural views" from "ancient traditions" in an attempt to discredit his opposing position, by painting it as full of "fantastical notions." Classical use of a red herring. ("We are all the ephemeral forms of a consciousness greater than ourselves") In an era where consciousness itself is still doubted, this would cause alarm to some.

"The myth of quantum consciousness sits well with many whose egos have made it impossible for them to accept the insignificant place science perceives for humanity."

Or perhaps, what doesn't sit well with the adherents of materialism is, that despite our microscopic place in the universe, significance remains. "Oh no! If the universe has purpose, so might I!" The allure of freedom appeals more than responsibility, I suppose.

"Atomic theory and quantum mechanics demonstrated that everything, even space and time, exists in discrete bits - quanta."

But what organizes these particles of quanta? Are not there patterns that govern how matter builds up from the micro to the macro level? "Well their are some random events in qp." Are they truly random, or just causes yet unfound? From my understanding, science always looks for the answers, never attributes it to "it just happened." I mean, isn't that the ridicule thrown on religionists?

"Quantum mechanics does not violate the Copernican principle that the universe cares not a whit about the human race."

Did Copernicus ever say the universe doesn't care about us, or did he just put us in a different place?

"Einstein and other physicists proved that matter and light were composed of particles, wiping away the notion of universal continuity." and "Electricity is the flow of electrons or other charged particles, and that light is a current of particles called photons."

He asserts that matter and light are composed of particles, indeed so, but photons are essentially electromagnetic energy. Even two of physics fundamental equations equate light and matter with energy (Einstein's E=mc2, and Planck's E = hv) So I must ask, why hardly any mention of this elusive energy? Is there only one side to the coin?

"Shortly thereafter, in 1905, Einstein developed his theory of relativity which demonstrated that the concept of an aether was logically inconsistent with Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism. Einstein concluded that electromagnetic waves, including light, could not be the vibrations of aether."

Yet during Einstein's address, "Aether and the Theory of Relativity", delivered on May 5th, 1920, at the University of Leyden, Germany, he says:

"According to the Special Theory of Relativity, both Matter and radiation are but special forms of distributed energy, ponderable mass losing its isolation and appearing as a special form of energy …. More careful reflection teaches us, however, that the Special Theory of Relativity does not compel us to deny the Aether. We may assume the existence of an Aether; only we must give up ascribing a definite state of motion to it, i.e. we must by abstraction take from it the last mechanical characteristic which Lorentz had still left it."

To sum up the root of the author's logical fallacies, with all due respect, let me refer to a quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson, from his essay The American Scholar:

"Genius is always sufficiently the enemy of genius by over influence. The book, the college, the school of art, the institution of any kind, stop with some past utterance of genius. This is good, say they, — let us hold by this. They pin me down. They look backward and not forward. But genius looks forward: the eyes of man are set in his forehead, not in his hindhead; man hopes: genius creates."

Just as Newton was once considered the benchmark of natural science, Einstein has now taken his place.

"Einstein's principle that no signals can move faster than light implies that separated events in the universe - even those atomic diameter apart - cannot be simultaneously connected."

Although the implications of quantum entanglement were disputed at the now called "Copenhagen interpretation", by the EPR paradox, the explanation for how these particles could reflect each other across vast distances, without exceeding the speed of light, leaves a puzzling conclusion. "The information was encoded in some 'hidden parameters'." So in world without a conscious fundamental reality, in a world without some "Underlying Field of Information" here we have information implanted into these particles?? How can information precede intelligence?

"The fact that the world rarely is what we want it to be is the best evidence that we have little to say about it."

This assertion basically says, "we cannot change the world, or else it would be different." Frankly, maybe this just shows how few people believe they actually can change the world. Tell Napoleon that he had little to say about the world.

Lastly, he makes no remarks on any attempts of his to conduct the experiments that have been presented which support many of the claims from such traditions. He has criticized the stars without using a telescope, he has knocked single-cell organisms without using a microscope, he has brought preconceived notions without giving it a try. Direct experience always trumps theories, and thankfully a discerning skeptic can believe what he wants.

cafolini
06-29-2013, 06:37 PM
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Quantum/QuantumConsciousness.pdf

To begin with, Dr. Stenger never misses the opportunity to bring up "the supernatural views" from "ancient traditions" in an attempt to discredit his opposing position, by painting it as full of "fantastical notions." Classical use of a red herring. ("We are all the ephemeral forms of a consciousness greater than ourselves") In an era where consciousness itself is still doubted, this would cause alarm to some.

"The myth of quantum consciousness sits well with many whose egos have made it impossible for them to accept the insignificant place science perceives for humanity."

Or perhaps, what doesn't sit well with the adherents of materialism is, that despite our microscopic place in the universe, significance remains. "Oh no! If the universe has purpose, so might I!" The allure of freedom appeals more than responsibility, I suppose.

"Atomic theory and quantum mechanics demonstrated that everything, even space and time, exists in discrete bits - quanta."

But what organizes these particles of quanta? Are not there patterns that govern how matter builds up from the micro to the macro level? "Well their are some random events in qp." Are they truly random, or just causes yet unfound? From my understanding, science always looks for the answers, never attributes it to "it just happened." I mean, isn't that the ridicule thrown on religionists?

"Quantum mechanics does not violate the Copernican principle that the universe cares not a whit about the human race."

Did Copernicus ever say the universe doesn't care about us, or did he just put us in a different place?

"Einstein and other physicists proved that matter and light were composed of particles, wiping away the notion of universal continuity." and "Electricity is the flow of electrons or other charged particles, and that light is a current of particles called photons."

He asserts that matter and light are composed of particles, indeed so, but photons are essentially electromagnetic energy. Even two of physics fundamental equations equate light and matter with energy (Einstein's E=mc2, and Planck's E = hv) So I must ask, why hardly any mention of this elusive energy? Is there only one side to the coin?

"Shortly thereafter, in 1905, Einstein developed his theory of relativity which demonstrated that the concept of an aether was logically inconsistent with Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism. Einstein concluded that electromagnetic waves, including light, could not be the vibrations of aether."

Yet during Einstein's address, "Aether and the Theory of Relativity", delivered on May 5th, 1920, at the University of Leyden, Germany, he says:

"According to the Special Theory of Relativity, both Matter and radiation are but special forms of distributed energy, ponderable mass losing its isolation and appearing as a special form of energy …. More careful reflection teaches us, however, that the Special Theory of Relativity does not compel us to deny the Aether. We may assume the existence of an Aether; only we must give up ascribing a definite state of motion to it, i.e. we must by abstraction take from it the last mechanical characteristic which Lorentz had still left it."

To sum up the root of the author's logical fallacies, with all due respect, let me refer to a quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson, from his essay The American Scholar:

"Genius is always sufficiently the enemy of genius by over influence. The book, the college, the school of art, the institution of any kind, stop with some past utterance of genius. This is good, say they, — let us hold by this. They pin me down. They look backward and not forward. But genius looks forward: the eyes of man are set in his forehead, not in his hindhead; man hopes: genius creates."

Just as Newton was once considered the benchmark of natural science, Einstein has now taken his place.

"Einstein's principle that no signals can move faster than light implies that separated events in the universe - even those atomic diameter apart - cannot be simultaneously connected."

Although the implications of quantum entanglement were disputed at the now called "Copenhagen interpretation", by the EPR paradox, the explanation for how these particles could reflect each other across vast distances, without exceeding the speed of light, leaves a puzzling conclusion. "The information was encoded in some 'hidden parameters'." So in world without a conscious fundamental reality, in a world without some "Underlying Field of Information" here we have information implanted into these particles?? How can information precede intelligence?

"The fact that the world rarely is what we want it to be is the best evidence that we have little to say about it."

This assertion basically says, "we cannot change the world, or else it would be different." Frankly, maybe this just shows how few people believe they actually can change the world. Tell Napoleon that he had little to say about the world.

Lastly, he makes no remarks on any attempts of his to conduct the experiments that have been presented which support many of the claims from such traditions. He has criticized the stars without using a telescope, he has knocked single-cell organisms without using a microscope, he has brought preconceived notions without giving it a try. Direct experience always trumps theories, and thankfully a discerning skeptic can believe what he wants.

Why so complicated, Evan. No matter how many birds chirp, including retarded Einstein, the world will not start behaving contrary to science.

YesNo
06-29-2013, 09:21 PM
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Quantum/QuantumConsciousness.pdf

To begin with, Dr. Stenger never misses the opportunity to bring up "the supernatural views" from "ancient traditions" in an attempt to discredit his opposing position, by painting it as full of "fantastical notions." Classical use of a red herring. ("We are all the ephemeral forms of a consciousness greater than ourselves") In an era where consciousness itself is still doubted, this would cause alarm to some.

I agree. This was not much of a paper. The paper was written 20 years and so is likely out of date.



"The myth of quantum consciousness sits well with many whose egos have made it impossible for them to accept the insignificant place science perceives for humanity."

Or perhaps, what doesn't sit well with the adherents of materialism is, that despite our microscopic place in the universe, significance remains. "Oh no! If the universe has purpose, so might I!" The allure of freedom appeals more than responsibility, I suppose.

Again, I agree. I don't see why being small means being "insignificant" unless one has a theory of significance which supposedly doesn't exist.



"Atomic theory and quantum mechanics demonstrated that everything, even space and time, exists in discrete bits - quanta."

I think energy comes in discrete quanta, but not space and time. Those are continuous dimensions. So I suspect what he has to say about this is incorrect.



But what organizes these particles of quanta? Are not there patterns that govern how matter builds up from the micro to the macro level? "Well their are some random events in qp." Are they truly random, or just causes yet unfound? From my understanding, science always looks for the answers, never attributes it to "it just happened." I mean, isn't that the ridicule thrown on religionists?

As I understand it, an event is not "random", but "uncertain" and the wave function gives a probability for all possible events that come from a specific state. If materialistic reductionism depends on determinism, then materialistic reductionism is no longer valid. Prior to quantum physics one could hope to claim that if one measures an initial state one could predict with 100% certainty what the next state would be. One can't even guarantee that the next measurement of that initial state will remain the same.



Lastly, he makes no remarks on any attempts of his to conduct the experiments that have been presented which support many of the claims from such traditions. He has criticized the stars without using a telescope, he has knocked single-cell organisms without using a microscope, he has brought preconceived notions without giving it a try. Direct experience always trumps theories, and thankfully a discerning skeptic can believe what he wants.

Right. He is talking from authority and not from any evidence he has collected. Even as an authority, he isn't saying anything very interesting.

YesNo
07-04-2013, 06:25 PM
I've been trying to find out more about "quantum consciousness".

Here is information about Victor Stenger: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Stenger and an article on the ideas in Sam Harris Free Will that I found interesting: http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/FreeWillSkeptic.pdf

For the opposite side, I'm reading Dean Radin's Entangled Minds which is a good survey (2006) of PSI phenomena.

One thing that stands out, although it's a detail, the word "random" does not seem synonymous with "uncertainty". Stenger seems to use them interchangeably. However, an event that is random, such as flipping a coin or throwing a die, has a uniform probability distribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_distribution_%28continuous%29). That is, any of the possible events are equally likely. Something that is uncertain need not have that specific distribution.

Evan Shaw
07-05-2013, 01:26 AM
Appreciate you sharing those links YesNo, I'll have to check them out.

Yes this distinction between "random" and "uncertainty" seems to be a fine line - the former implying more so "the realm of chance", whereas the latter seems to say "we don't know what has caused this, but there does appear to be distinct causes that dictate the results, they just vary so much that they are hard to track down."

By all means, I consider myself a neophyte in this field, so, am I on the right track with those generalizations?

(ps: what are your thoughts on the work of Niels Bohr?)

YesNo
07-05-2013, 09:39 AM
I'm a neophyte as well. What I know about quantum physics and astronomy (big bang) comes from reading posts by others on Lit Net and then looking things up further. I am reading Steven Holzner's Quantum Physics for Dummies. So, I'm still at the "dummies" level.

Regarding Niels Bohr, I think he is more correct than Einstein when it comes to entanglement. I have no reason not to accept the Copenhagen interpretation. More specifically, I don't think "many worlds" is true, but it was nicely used in Men in Black 3.

How you differentiated "random" from "uncertain" is how I see it. Someone like Stenger would probably prefer that all uncertainty were "random" since there is no need for any other explanation. It is just chance. However, I suspect what is random in nature is actually rare. That doesn't mean it is certain or deterministic. The quantum world, I suspect, but again I'm a neophyte in studying it, is non-random, but nonetheless uncertain.

cacian
07-07-2013, 06:03 AM
neophyte is an intriguing word funnily enough I was only wondering yesterday what the difference is between to begin and to start but that is perhaps a different sorry about this.
On the thoughts of quantum I wondered if there is a link between conundrum and quantum :)
by the way if one goes with the title ''The Myth...'' then quantum consciousness should not exist right?

YesNo
07-07-2013, 10:28 AM
I don't know about the conundrum and quantum connection, nor much about the origins of neophyte, but Stenger's assumption when he uses the word "myth" is that it doesn't exist. But that's just his opinion. He didn't convince me from the article Evan Shaw linked to, however, it looks like he has written a bunch of books pursuing the idea.

Since it is easily available in the library, I'm reading Stenger's The Unconscious Quantum while trying to finish Radin's Entangled Minds. Radin is rather convincing. The scientific evidence for psi phenomena looks sound. I'll have to see if Stenger can counter this in any way. From the first chapter, he's off to a bad start.

cacian
07-07-2013, 03:41 PM
I don't know about the conundrum and quantum connection, nor much about the origins of neophyte, but Stenger's assumption when he uses the word "myth" is that it doesn't exist. But that's just his opinion. He didn't convince me from the article Evan Shaw linked to, however, it looks like he has written a bunch of books pursuing the idea.

Since it is easily available in the library, I'm reading Stenger's The Unconscious Quantum while trying to finish Radin's Entangled Minds. Radin is rather convincing. The scientific evidence for psi phenomena looks sound. I'll have to see if Stenger can counter this in any way. From the first chapter, he's off to a bad start.

Interesting.
I think unconscious and quantum together does not seem quite fitting because quantum is a measured value unconscious is not.