drugs and creativity

[cacian]

is drug usage justified as far as art and expressions are concerned?
is it ok to write or indulge arts under the influence if so why?
many claim to have had second comings enlightenement and better expressive powers when writing or visualising art.
one book that comes to mind is ''Clockwork Orange'' written under the influence of opium admittedly by its own author Anthony Burgess.

what are your thoughts?

[hannah_arendt]

Drugs have nothing in common with creativity.

[Silas Thorne]

Tell that to the mushroom munching prophets of the empty chambers, who decorate their walls with visual tales of their travels to the lands beyond sight and sound. But actually coffee is good too. Or water. Or wine. Or love. Or sex.

It actually doesn't matter whether 'it is ok' or not. If it works, use it.

'Spongebob and Squarepants' makes more sense to stoned people. It just does.

[cafolini]

It depends on inhibitions. Those who have been repressed the most find new possibilities under the influence of any drug. That's the bottomline.

[YesNo]

I would think the use of drugs is more comparable to the enjoyment of artistic output, not the creation of it. One would need to look more at intuitive processes and specific individual talent rather than drug use.

[cacian]

Drugs have nothing in common with creativity.

lots of people think the opposite but that is another story. I guess some feel the need to express thoughts through hallucinations.


Tell that to the mushroom munching prophets of the empty chambers, who decorate their walls with visual tales of their travels to the lands beyond sight and sound. But actually coffee is good too. Or water. Or wine. Or love. Or sex.

It actually doesn't matter whether 'it is ok' or not. If it works, use it.

'Spongebob and Squarepants' makes more sense to stoned people. It just does.

mushrooms indeed have been around since the beginning of time. many cultures have used them to their great outdoors advantage.
I guess stimulants work differently on different people the only about associating them with arts is that one may not recognise one's work because one was under the influence I don't know. dependencies are tricky when it comes to expressing them with art I think. :)

[Shevek]

I would think the use of drugs is more comparable to the enjoyment of artistic output, not the creation of it. One would need to look more at intuitive processes and specific individual talent rather than drug use.

'Enjoyment' doesn't really capture the experience of using drugs like LSD and mushrooms. There is the potential for great pleasure (and possibly a lot of psychological pain) with these and other drugs, but there's a reason why many people, in addition to the famous advocates of entheogen use like Huxley, describe it as a spiritual experience. This is also why entheogens have been used, with a lot of success, to help cope with alcoholism and PTSD. They can change your consciousness dramatically even if only for a brief period while the effects of the drug are at their peak. So, it is possible that they directly influence artistic creations. I wouldn't rule it out.

[Delta40]

Read the creation when you're straight... Ginsberg might have done better if he kept his head screwed on. I guess one thing that irks me is the assumption that people with mental disorders are considered to be more creative. They might cross their conventional boundaries when cycling but actually they are already gifted and it doesn't necessarily mean the work they produce in this state is of better quality. I would say it is the same for drug users.

[Darcy88]

Marijuana used to make me better at music but worse at writing.

[stlukesguild]

...it is possible that they directly influence artistic creations. I wouldn't rule it out.

Of course. Everything an artist experiences CAN influence his or her artistic creations. However... there is no magic pill that is likely to turn someone into an artist if they don't already have it in them. My own experience with alcohol and painting has made it clear that the work is not likely to benefit. Poor judgment and a decrease in motor skills and manual dexterity never looks good the morning after.

[YesNo]

'Enjoyment' doesn't really capture the experience of using drugs like LSD and mushrooms. There is the potential for great pleasure (and possibly a lot of psychological pain) with these and other drugs, but there's a reason why many people, in addition to the famous advocates of entheogen use like Huxley, describe it as a spiritual experience. This is also why entheogens have been used, with a lot of success, to help cope with alcoholism and PTSD. They can change your consciousness dramatically even if only for a brief period while the effects of the drug are at their peak. So, it is possible that they directly influence artistic creations. I wouldn't rule it out.

I've been looking up "entheogen" since you mentioned it. I've never heard the word before. However, I wonder if there is evidence that entheogens provide changes to the brain as some claim meditation techniques provide: http://io9.com/how-meditation-changes-your-brain-and-makes-you-feel-b-470030863

I can see how meditation might help with creativity, but entheogens make me suspicious. I'm not against using them. I just don't see the connection between them and creativity. There is a belief that artists live an odd sort of life, but if one breaks out of that idea and considers art as just a job some people engage in, and creativity something that even equity and bond traders have, one might be closer to the truth.

[Shevek]

I've been looking up "entheogen" since you mentioned it. I've never heard the word before. However, I wonder if there is evidence that entheogens provide changes to the brain as some claim meditation techniques provide: http://io9.com/how-meditation-changes-your-brain-and-makes-you-feel-b-470030863

I can see how meditation might help with creativity, but entheogens make me suspicious. I'm not against using them. I just don't see the connection between them and creativity. There is a belief that artists live an odd sort of life, but if one breaks out of that idea and considers art as just a job some people engage in, and creativity something that even equity and bond traders have, one might be closer to the truth.

I don't know if creativity is innate though (I say this not to be glib but because I really cannot take one side or the other) - as in it's something you either have or don't have, and once you have it, you have it forever. If it isn't innate, and is something that develops with experience, entheogens might help someone express their talents or at least inspire them to do so. So if art is a job, entheogens might help some people create better art. The keywords there of course are "might" and "some people" - I wouldn't try to argue that everyone, or even every artist, would suddenly become more creative with mind-altering substances.

As for meditation, it might be able to help the creative process but I'm not sure why you accept that and not entheogens. Some of the effects of meditation seem similar to an entheogen experience. For instance, empathy - LSD has been known to temporarily destroy the user's ego and make them feel "at one" with everybody and everything. Same to a lesser extent with MDMA. I can see this not only causing a change in someone's worldview, but how they express their views through art. If an artist finds his or her creativity blocked, maybe an entheogen experience could inspire them? This is where I see the connection between drugs and creativity - not that it WILL lead to creativity or even that it will always enhance it, but it's a possibility to consider amid the stigma that still lumps entheogens together with other substances like heroin, cocaine, and the like.

But if creativity is innate and drugs have no effect then I would genuinely like to hear that argument.

[YesNo]

Creativity isn't innate if meditation can improve it by changing the brain. The reason I mentioned meditation is because the article said it helped with creativity, based on fMRI results by changing the brain, but I'm not sure how they measured increase in creativity. What I have heard about drugs is that they act on the reward system that encourages sexual behavior and commitment. Perhaps one could avoid the need for entheogens by just getting into a positive relationship. I guess I would be convinced of the benefits of entheogens if fMRI data was available that showed they improved the brain in some way that affected creativity.

However, I'm just piecing together this puzzle. I don't really know much about it.

[Shevek]

Creativity isn't innate if meditation can improve it by changing the brain. The reason I mentioned meditation is because the article said it helped with creativity, based on fMRI results by changing the brain, but I'm not sure how they measured increase in creativity. What I have heard about drugs is that they act on the reward system that encourages sexual behavior and commitment. Perhaps one could avoid the need for entheogens by just getting into a positive relationship. I guess I would be convinced of the benefits of entheogens if fMRI data was available that showed they improved the brain in some way that affected creativity.

However, I'm just piecing together this puzzle. I don't really know much about it.

That particular effect is created by the neurotransmitter dopamine. The activation of dopamine is generally most intense from stimulants like cocaine and meth. Chemically there is more going on with entheogens. Unlike those two stimulants there's no way to predict how a person will react to entheogens (there are some exceptions like MDMA, but even then the effects tend to vary more than cocaine and meth). I'm sure a satisfying relationship would help creativity as well but entheogens are still unique.

We have more data about demographic patterns of drug use and their effects on behaviour than we do about their potentially positive psychological effects. I'm guessing it would be hard to research something like LSD since the effects are so unpredictable (although we do know that entheogens in general are relatively safe). Also since LSD became popularized by Timothy Leary, who was one of the first to associate LSD with counterculture, the backlash from the press and politicians of all stripes in North America (don't really know about Europe and elsewhere) has chilled the earlier enthusiasm for researching the positive effects of entheogens.

[YesNo]

Here's a survey of some research done on the topic: http://io9.com/5878523/what-your-mind-really-looks-like-on-shrooms-cigarettes-weed-and-booze

The article didn't make much sense to me. I'll have to re-read it later, but this is what I would like to compare with the effects, say, meditation has on the brain.

[Ecurb]

Adderall is the rage among college students these days. Perhaps it helps creativity (although college students are taking it to cram for tests, not the most creative of endeavors).

I imagine antibiotics improve creativity in comparison to dying of some infectious disease (the same goes for anti-hyper-tensives and other life-saving drugs). All those people who died of bubonic plague (but could have been saved by antibiotics) didn't "create" much once they "all fell down".

[YesNo]

Whatever keeps one from dying directly helps creativity as well as anything else.

I wonder if neuroscientists really know how to detect what creativity even is in the brain scans they take, but having such tools, which didn't exist 40 years ago, does give them a chance to look at the effects of drug use or other activity in a new way.

Adderall according to Wikipedia supposedly has the


Side effects of amphetamine salts include dry mouth, insomnia, tired feeling, drowsiness, dizziness, nervousness, headache and weight loss, diarrhea, as well as faster heartbeat combined with lower blood pressure. Hair loss (alopecia), decreased libido, and bloody stools have also been reported.

In the long run, I wonder if it changes the brain so it is more creative or not.

[cacian]

Read the creation when you're straight... Ginsberg might have done better if he kept his head screwed on. I guess one thing that irks me is the assumption that people with mental disorders are considered to be more creative. They might cross their conventional boundaries when cycling but actually they are already gifted and it doesn't necessarily mean the work they produce in this state is of better quality. I would say it is the same for drug users.

I did not think one could read when one is not straight. I know I could not.

[cacian]

Whatever keeps one from dying directly helps creativity as well as anything else.

I wonder if neuroscientists really know how to detect what creativity even is in the brain scans they take, but having such tools, which didn't exist 40 years ago, does give them a chance to look at the effects of drug use or other activity in a new way.

Adderall according to Wikipedia supposedly has the


Side effects of amphetamine salts include dry mouth, insomnia, tired feeling, drowsiness, dizziness, nervousness, headache and weight loss, diarrhea, as well as faster heartbeat combined with lower blood pressure. Hair loss (alopecia), decreased libido, and bloody stools have also been reported.

In the long run, I wonder if it changes the brain so it is more creative or not.

actually someone once told that in the sixties they used speed to cure depression and it must have worked whether one wrote whilst on it is another dimension. lots of books were written on the sixties. I am wondering how many were on the stuff as a result of it. it would be interesting to find out.

[Darcy88]

Some anthropologists hypothesize that the consumption of psilocybin in mushrooms sparked a great creative leap forward many thousands of years ago. I read it in a pretty old book so I don't know if the theory is held as valid today but its interesting nonetheless.

Ken Kesey did a lot of LSD and you can see the effect in his novels. I myself really don't like drugs. I got the impulse to take them out of my system at quite an early age.

[cacian]

Some anthropologists hypothesize that the consumption of psilocybin in mushrooms sparked a great creative leap forward many thousands of years ago. I read it in a pretty old book so I don't know if the theory is held as valid today but its interesting nonetheless.

Ken Kesey did a lot of LSD and you can see the effect in his novels. I myself really don't like drugs. I got the impulse to take them out of my system at quite an early age.

What impulse was that if you do not mind me asking?

[Ecurb]

Many authors have been heavy drinkers. Hemmingway, Fitzgerald, Joyce, Faulkner, Poe, Dylan Thomas, Dorothy Parker, and Tennessee Williams among them. This doesn't demonstrate that their drinking improved their creativity, of course. Perhaps their creative minds craved an occasional sedative. Hunter Thompson took a lot of illegal drugs, and they certainly influenced his writing.

[Ecurb]

"In Xanadu did Kublai Khan a stately pleasure dome decree, where Alf, the sacred river ran, through caverns measureless to man, down to a sunless sea." (From memory, so it might not be exact.)

[hypatia_]

drugs (psychadelics specifically) have been behind some of the most important scientific discoveries ever. they simply allow you to perceive reality in a different way (the definition of creativity in my mind). i find the argument that drugs do not induce creativity pretty hard to support.

[Darcy88]

*Wrong thread

[Adolescent09]

Drugs and creativity? Well, it depends on what kinds of drugs. I was prescribed legal medication for psychosis which left me sleeping for days on end, enhanced my suicidal thoughts, and had a bunch of unhealthy side effects including substantial weight gain. I smoked weed for the first time a few months ago and even though I felt paranoid for a short while after the first few totes, I am much more awake, alert, happy, and confident nearly half a year later. A legal drug built my prison. An illegal drug broke the lock. Go figure.

(BTW, while I'm against the consistent use of weed and other illegal drugs I do highly recommend it in times of anxiety/stress or severe panic attacks. I have no shame in admitting that if I ever feel extremely panicky I will take a break with a bit of good 'ole MJ!)

[Darcy88]

Drugs and creativity? Well, it depends on what kinds of drugs. I was prescribed legal medication for psychosis which left me sleeping for days on end, enhanced my suicidal thoughts, and had a bunch of unhealthy side effects including substantial weight gain. I smoked weed for the first time a few months ago and even though I felt paranoid for a short while after the first few totes, I am much more awake, alert, happy, and confident nearly half a year later. A legal drug built my prison. An illegal drug broke the lock. Go figure.

(BTW, while I'm against the consistent use of weed and other illegal drugs I do highly recommend it in times of anxiety/stress or severe panic attacks. I have no shame in admitting that if I ever feel extremely panicky I will take a break with a bit of good 'ole MJ!)

Marijuana causes anxiety for me and for a number of people I know. I would advise against taking it if you have a history of mental illness.

[hypatia_]

marijuana helps treat mental illness as well though. i will admit it causes anxiety at first because it is altering your state of mind.

[Darcy88]

marijuana helps treat mental illness as well though. i will admit it causes anxiety at first because it is altering your state of mind.

I have never heard that before. There is plenty of evidence which indicates that marijuana can trigger psychosis in those with underlying illnesses. And it didn't cause me anxiety at first, the anxiety came later after I had been smoking it for a while.

[cacian]

marijuana helps treat mental illness as well though. i will admit it causes anxiety at first because it is altering your state of mind.

I think it all depends on the quality of the plant and whether it has been tempered with or not. Today people put all sort of stuff with it to make marijuana stronger. Skunk I think is artificially inseminated with other drugs which makes lethal ie it leaves people really aggressive after using it. I know people who smoke it and are very aggressive as a result of it. a bit like ecstasy which is a mixture of speed and cocaine I think. I think the worse one can do to a drug is to mix it with others. ie a plant with other artificial substances such as speed.

[Darcy88]

I think it all depends on the quality of the plant and whether it has been tempered with or not. Today people put all sort of stuff with it to make marijuana stronger. Skunk I think is artificially inseminated with other drugs which makes lethal ie it leaves people really aggressive after using it. I know people who smoke it and are very aggressive as a result of it. a bit like ecstasy which is a mixture of speed and cocaine I think. I think the worse one can do to a drug is to mix it with others. ie a plant with other artificial substances such as speed.

Many growers put in nastily horrid chemicals when growing the plants. Some of the stuff I've heard made my jaw drop. It is important to know how your stuff was grown.

[hypatia_]

yeah it's pretty easy to tell if your weed is mixed with speed though...

[cacian]

yeah it's pretty easy to tell if your weed is mixed with speed though...

really?how?

[Grit]

Marijuana causes anxiety for me and for a number of people I know. I would advise against taking it if you have a history of mental illness.

Drugs have different effects on every single person. That's something that's not widely known or understood. That's because the human brain is complex and hardly understood, the effects can only be guessed and you never know how one totally unique person's mind will react because of the chemical reaction.

In the case of marijuana and mental illness, I know from first hand experience that they do not mix well, especially paranoid schizophrenia or paranoid psychosis.

I had a best friend in high school, we were like brothers for years and after school we moved in together. As many people who are new to living on their own and with no sense of responsibility, we began smoking excessive quantities of marijuana. I'm talking about all day every day.

Three months in, my friend told me that he wanted me to move out, that he thought I didn't like him, that my girlfriend was talking bad about him, all sorts of crazy notions that were in no way grounded in reality. We lived together for a year and by the end, he was extremely paranoid, and our friendship was destroyed.

I heard just recently from a friend that he has been telling people he thinks my life revolves around trying to ruin his reputation. He went on a charity trip and was convinced I told everyone bad things about him. Thinks family is conspiring against him. Marijuana triggered the change in him. He's literally a different person. It's not the only factor, that illness is thought to kick at biological maturity but it certainly made it worse and I know he's doing better now that he isn't smoking all the time.

Drugs can aid the creativity of some and block the creativity of others. In my experience marijuana is not the creative wonder drug it's been made out to be in popular culture. It's a euphoric substance that makes you lazy and socially awkward. Still, I'm sure it's been a creative catalyst for many, many people.

Hallucinogenics can definitely create new perspectives which is technically creativity, I suppose. Personally, I hate them as I don't like my subconscious manifesting itself. My inner demons are scary.


really?how?

Haha, it's obvious you've never smoked weed.

You'll feel like you're on speed and not marijuana. If you have no reference, than yeah you wouldn't be able to tell but if you've smoked weed, you'll know when it's not just weed in there. Jaw clenching, light speed heart rate, jitters, increased speed of speech e.t.c. there's a ton of stuff that would signal something's wrong.

[Adolescent09]

Drugs have different effects on every single person. That's something that's not widely known or understood. That's because the human brain is complex and hardly understood, the effects can only be guessed and you never know how one totally unique person's mind will react because of the chemical reaction.

In the case of marijuana and mental illness, I know from first hand experience that they do not mix well, especially paranoid schizophrenia or paranoid psychosis.

Your first paragraph is the most honest/unbiased statement I've read on this forum in years. Unfortunately the rest of what you typed not only blatantly contradicts the great first paragraph, but is based on a personal anecdote that you then use to validate an argument against weed.

I am AGAINST the legalization of weed, myself. I have already said that a few times. BUT to claim that marijuana is a detriment to the user burdened with schizophrenic, bipolar or anxiety issues is an extremely hasty generalization. One that should not be based on anecdotes.

If anecdotes could justify the case for any issue why not take mine into consideration? Half a decade ago I was diagnosed with bipolar/borderline schizophrenia. I had excessive thoughts of murdering my mom, nearly murdered my neighbor, got thrown into a mental institution on 4 separate occasions, got kicked out of two schools... you get the friggin' point. Now here is where it gets REALLLLLYYY interesting. One day, during an intense panic attack, a guy sitting next to me in class says he has this magical green stuff that is known to make eccentric thoughts...VANISH! At the time I was suffering as many panic attacks as a hummingbird's heartbeat. There's no need to say what happened next. I haven't had a panic attack in over 6 months. Not a single moment of feeling anxious. No more insomnia. No more hypersomnia. The chatter of people who I used to think were talking or laughing about me now sounds barely audible. In FACT, when people walk up to me and literally insult me it either blows right over my head or I see it as a compliment. And the best thing of all, you ask? I smoked 2 joints on 2 separate occasions 6 MONTHS ago. That's IT.

Now... should it be legal? NO! You said it yourself! Different people act differently! Give the hundreds of millions of people on this planet with SERIOUS anxiety/psychological/neurological disorders the same amount of weed I had in the same time period. Get each of their accounts half a year later. Then relate your opinion.

Being objective is difficult, I know. I am as biased as you, we are as biased as everyone else on this forum, and every one else in the world. Nothing can change that.

[hypatia_]

Your first paragraph is the most honest/unbiased statement I've read on this forum in years. Unfortunately the rest of what you typed not only blatantly contradicts the great first paragraph, but is based on a personal anecdote that you then use to validate an argument against weed.

I am AGAINST the legalization of weed, myself. I have already said that a few times. BUT to claim that marijuana is a detriment to the user burdened with schizophrenic, bipolar or anxiety issues is an extremely hasty generalization. One that should not be based on anecdotes.

If anecdotes could justify the case for any issue why not take mine into consideration? Half a decade ago I was diagnosed with bipolar/borderline schizophrenia. I had excessive thoughts of murdering my mom, nearly murdered my neighbor, got thrown into a mental institution on 4 separate occasions, got kicked out of two schools... you get the friggin' point. Now here is where it gets REALLLLLYYY interesting. One day, during an intense panic attack, a guy sitting next to me in class says he has this magical green stuff that is known to make eccentric thoughts...VANISH! At the time I was suffering as many panic attacks as a hummingbird's heartbeat. There's no need to say what happened next. I haven't had a panic attack in over 6 months. Not a single moment of feeling anxious. No more insomnia. No more hypersomnia. The chatter of people who I used to think were talking or laughing about me now sounds barely audible. In FACT, when people walk up to me and literally insult me it either blows right over my head or I see it as a compliment. And the best thing of all, you ask? I smoked 2 joints on 2 separate occasions 6 MONTHS ago. That's IT.

Now... should it be legal? NO! You said it yourself! Different people act differently! Give the hundreds of millions of people on this planet with SERIOUS anxiety/psychological/neurological disorders the same amount of weed I had in the same time period. Get each of their accounts half a year later. Then relate your opinion.

Being objective is difficult, I know. I am as biased as you, we are as biased as everyone else on this forum, and every one else in the world. Nothing can change that.

He wasn't being biased, he said he knows from first-hand experience that it does not mix for him.

[tonywalt]

Your first paragraph is the most honest/unbiased statement I've read on this forum in years. Unfortunately the rest of what you typed not only blatantly contradicts the great first paragraph, but is based on a personal anecdote that you then use to validate an argument against weed.

I am AGAINST the legalization of weed, myself. I have already said that a few times. BUT to claim that marijuana is a detriment to the user burdened with schizophrenic, bipolar or anxiety issues is an extremely hasty generalization. One that should not be based on anecdotes.

If anecdotes could justify the case for any issue why not take mine into consideration? Half a decade ago I was diagnosed with bipolar/borderline schizophrenia. I had excessive thoughts of murdering my mom, nearly murdered my neighbor, got thrown into a mental institution on 4 separate occasions, got kicked out of two schools... you get the friggin' point. Now here is where it gets REALLLLLYYY interesting. One day, during an intense panic attack, a guy sitting next to me in class says he has this magical green stuff that is known to make eccentric thoughts...VANISH! At the time I was suffering as many panic attacks as a hummingbird's heartbeat. There's no need to say what happened next. I haven't had a panic attack in over 6 months. Not a single moment of feeling anxious. No more insomnia. No more hypersomnia. The chatter of people who I used to think were talking or laughing about me now sounds barely audible. In FACT, when people walk up to me and literally insult me it either blows right over my head or I see it as a compliment. And the best thing of all, you ask? I smoked 2 joints on 2 separate occasions 6 MONTHS ago. That's IT.

Now... should it be legal? NO! You said it yourself! Different people act differently! Give the hundreds of millions of people on this planet with SERIOUS anxiety/psychological/neurological disorders the same amount of weed I had in the same time period. Get each of their accounts half a year later. Then relate your opinion.

Being objective is difficult, I know. I am as biased as you, we are as biased as everyone else on this forum, and every one else in the world. Nothing can change that.

Are you saying that 2 spliffs cured the rather severe bipolar/borderline schizophrenia, based on your own anecdotal evidence? And just to give my post more integrity, I would concede that it is possible the marijuana may ( or may not) benefit those with anxiety - but two joints will not cure you. For what it is worth, I am familiar with what your classmate offered.

We have extensive threads(arguments and shouting) on marijuana.

[Grit]

the rest of what you typed not only blatantly contradicts the great first paragraph, but is based on a personal anecdote that you then use to validate an argument against weed.


Ado,

I'm not arguing against weed and that was just an anecdote. I think it should be legal. I was just providing a personal experience where it had that effect and I've read that weed can worsen the symptoms. Not saying it has to and I'm talking about massive amounts of smoking. Anecdotes are the worst support for any argument.

You're of course right. I am biased but there would be no way around it, that was a terribly unpleasant time in my life and it's not easy to forget.

I hope you have continued success with whatever methods provide tranquility.

[hypatia_]

I would argue that it is probably a placebo effect moreso than the spliffs.

[Darcy88]

Your first paragraph is the most honest/unbiased statement I've read on this forum in years. Unfortunately the rest of what you typed not only blatantly contradicts the great first paragraph, but is based on a personal anecdote that you then use to validate an argument against weed.

I am AGAINST the legalization of weed, myself. I have already said that a few times. BUT to claim that marijuana is a detriment to the user burdened with schizophrenic, bipolar or anxiety issues is an extremely hasty generalization. One that should not be based on anecdotes.

If anecdotes could justify the case for any issue why not take mine into consideration? Half a decade ago I was diagnosed with bipolar/borderline schizophrenia. I had excessive thoughts of murdering my mom, nearly murdered my neighbor, got thrown into a mental institution on 4 separate occasions, got kicked out of two schools... you get the friggin' point. Now here is where it gets REALLLLLYYY interesting. One day, during an intense panic attack, a guy sitting next to me in class says he has this magical green stuff that is known to make eccentric thoughts...VANISH! At the time I was suffering as many panic attacks as a hummingbird's heartbeat. There's no need to say what happened next. I haven't had a panic attack in over 6 months. Not a single moment of feeling anxious. No more insomnia. No more hypersomnia. The chatter of people who I used to think were talking or laughing about me now sounds barely audible. In FACT, when people walk up to me and literally insult me it either blows right over my head or I see it as a compliment. And the best thing of all, you ask? I smoked 2 joints on 2 separate occasions 6 MONTHS ago. That's IT.

Now... should it be legal? NO! You said it yourself! Different people act differently! Give the hundreds of millions of people on this planet with SERIOUS anxiety/psychological/neurological disorders the same amount of weed I had in the same time period. Get each of their accounts half a year later. Then relate your opinion.

Being objective is difficult, I know. I am as biased as you, we are as biased as everyone else on this forum, and every one else in the world. Nothing can change that.

The THC from those joints you smoked left your system quite a while ago. I was diagnosed bipolar as well, but the symptoms just went away. I think a large part of it was blood sugar issues. I get episodic when I'm at an extremely low weight and suffering frequent hypoglycemic attacks. It is the only thing which correlates with my periods of instability. I don't think every diagnosis has life-long ramifications. Some people suffer chronically, some people sort of grow out of it. I wouldn't attribute your positive mental turnaround to that small amount of marijuana you consumed. It could be the result of any number of things. Mental health professionals are nearly universally guilty of underestimating situational factors in a person's psychological condition. When under extreme stress the mind does funny things. Take away those stressors or develop more effective means of coping with them and a person can avoid being symptomatic.

[Adolescent09]

Are you saying that 2 spliffs cured the rather severe bipolar/borderline schizophrenia, based on your own anecdotal evidence? And just to give my post more integrity, I would concede that it is possible the marijuana may ( or may not) benefit those with anxiety - but two joints will not cure you. For what it is worth, I am familiar with what your classmate offered.

We have extensive threads(arguments and shouting) on marijuana.

See how ridiculous the 'anecdotal evidence' sounds when trying to validate a claim? You're only reiterating my point. Two joints will not cure me, true, and I might have a psychotic relapse. The interesting thing, though, is that besides the two joints, nothing in my dietary/substance intake changed at the time I was introduced to weed. It is difficult to explain how my life could have improved in such a dramatic fashion without considering the POSSIBILITY that weed was a key factor.

Tons of more research with a randomized, broad sample OUTSIDE of a rudimentary 'rat-lab' setting is needed to come to a more comprehensive understanding of the matter. Aside from this, we are left to shout and have pointless arguments founded on inconclusive anecdotes. Until more light is shed, I advocate keeping weed illegal.

[Darcy88]

You bring up thinking people were chattering about you when they weren't. This is the one thing I still have trouble with. For various reasons people actually do like to whisper about me, something my friends and family have noticed without me even pointing it out. This makes maintaining mental equanimity hard at times. Its a really sick twist of fate that a person with a tendency towards paranoia and instability should have to deal with it. I'd estimate that a third of the perceived attention is real, while the rest is a paranoid fabrication. I try to just laugh it off though.

[Adolescent09]

Interestingly enough, if we unequivocally know that something is bad for us (liberal alcoholic and nicotine intake), we can make it legal and allow members of society to exercise their command of judgement in regards to how badly they wish to screw up their lives with the substance(s). Somehow this makes sense, which I simply don't get.

If we have a substance (weed, of course), which we KNOW has several beneficial aspects, and comparable if not a little less or a little more negative aspects, the negatives COMPLETELY eclipse the positives. The drug is reduced to exaggerative anecdotes that either paint a pretty picture of it (my previous post) or demonize it (Grit's post) and we all become biased babbling baboons.

Lol, I love these types of discussions either way. I need some sort of release from my hectic college life, right?

[Adolescent09]

The THC from those joints you smoked left your system quite a while ago. I was diagnosed bipolar as well, but the symptoms just went away. I think a large part of it was blood sugar issues. I get episodic when I'm at an extremely low weight and suffering frequent hypoglycemic attacks. It is the only thing which correlates with my periods of instability. I don't think every diagnosis has life-long ramifications. Some people suffer chronically, some people sort of grow out of it. I wouldn't attribute your positive mental turnaround to that small amount of marijuana you consumed. It could be the result of any number of things. Mental health professionals are nearly universally guilty of underestimating situational factors in a person's psychological condition. When under extreme stress the mind does funny things. Take away those stressors or develop more effective means of coping with them and a person can avoid being symptomatic.

Great point, Darcy, and as Hypatia_ said it might have just been a placebo affect. Needless to say, the mind is an enigma.

[Darcy88]

Interestingly enough, if we unequivocally know that something is bad for us (liberal alcoholic and nicotine intake), we can make it legal and allow members of society to exercise their command of judgement in regards to how badly they wish to screw up their lives with the substance(s). Somehow this makes sense, which I simply don't get.

If we have a substance (weed, of course), which we KNOW has several beneficial aspects, and comparable if not a little less or a little more negative aspects, the negatives COMPLETELY eclipse the positives. The drug is reduced to exaggerative anecdotes that either paint a pretty picture of it (my previous post) or demonize it (Grit's post) and we all become biased babbling baboons.

Lol, I love these types of discussions either way. I need some sort of release from my hectic college life, right?

The fact that Mexican cartel profits are 60 percent derived from marijuana is enough reason for me to advocate for legalization. I myself know of local violent gangsters who make a living from the stuff. Overcrowded prisons are another. And the hypocrisy of alcohol being legal, a drug far more pernicious than weed, is another reason. I haven't smoked pot in 10 years and don't associate with chronic users, but I think it should be a personal choice. Legalize it I say.

[Grit]

I am FOR the legalization of marijuana and think it's for the most part a harmless drug, especially when compared to alcohol or prescription medication.

In what way did my anecdote demonize it? Please do not put words in my mouth.

[Darcy88]

The link between marijuana and psychosis is pretty solidly substantiated. I am still for legalization but there needs to be more education to warn those with genetic risk factors for mental illness to steer clear of the drug.

[Adolescent09]

I am FOR the legalization of marijuana and think it's for the most part a harmless drug, especially when compared to alcohol or prescription medication.

In what way did my anecdote demonize it? Please do not put words in my mouth.

I didn't put anything into your mouth. Your whole story about your friend's paranoia because of the excessive weed he smoked strongly suggested that you were against it. Since you attributed his aberrant thoughts to the drug, by claiming that he was not in control of his physical and/or mental being (widely viewed as demonic qualities) you were essentially demonizing the drug. Usually when people want to support a position they cite reasons/personal accounts to support their argument; at they very least they are impartial. You didn't mention a single reason why you supported legalization. What else was I supposed to think?

[Grit]

I didn't put anything into your mouth. Your whole story about your friend's paranoia because of the excessive weed he smoked strongly suggested that you were against it. Since you attributed his aberrant thoughts to the drug, by claiming that he was not in control of his physical and/or mental being (widely viewed as demonic qualities) you were essentially demonizing the drug. Usually when people want to support a position they cite reasons/personal accounts to support their argument; at they very least they are impartial. You didn't mention a single reason why you supported legalization. What else was I supposed to think?

It was an anecdote like you said, not an argument. I didn't think I needed to clarify that a personal experience was not a universal statement, especially after saying that I know drugs effect everyone differently.

[hypatia_]

i smoked a joint last night and wrote some poetry. what it made me think about was that doesn't make you creative so much as it relaxes you enough to be able to express yourself more naturally.

[Adolescent09]

creative ... to express yourself more naturally

I have always been under the impression that being able to "express oneself more naturally" is the pure essence of creativity. How do you differentiate between them?

[Silas Thorne]

You can express yourself very naturally if you have literary diarrhoea too. That doesn't mean other people would necessarily want to read it.
Pop singers may express their ideas using cliches, which come naturally to some people. But usually it's more creative to want to subvert or avoid them.

[cacian]

i smoked a joint last night and wrote some poetry. what it made me think about was that doesn't make you creative so much as it relaxes you enough to be able to express yourself more naturally.

the question here is about condition. will you able to do the same without the smoke?

[hypatia_]

I have always been under the impression that being able to "express oneself more naturally" is the pure essence of creativity. How do you differentiate between them?

What I mean is it doesn't make you creative, it allows you to tap into your natural creativeness. everyone is creative, but most are too tense to relax and use their minds in that way.

[Adolescent09]

You can express yourself very naturally if you have literary diarrhoea too. That doesn't mean other people would necessarily want to read it.
Pop singers may express their ideas using cliches, which come naturally to some people. But usually it's more creative to want to subvert or avoid them.

Well thinking your butt-gunk doesn't stink is well... I don't need to finish that sentence, now, do I? Personally, I would rather read a stylistically awful poem that is extremely personal to the poet (a teenage girl writing about the death of her first boyfriend) than some beautifully written nonsense that says nothing about nothing but swears to god it means something (98% of Shakespearean sonnets). I advocate that the attitude one expresses should reflect how they feel.

Get a grip of this: If one person feels they want to butcher someone and eat their heart after the fact (Dahmer claimed to love his victims so much he wanted them to be a part of him) or if another person wants to donate an organ to a cancer patient without ever telling the recipient or seeking credit for the deed (based on a true incident of an organ donor whose former bout with cancer made him love fellow sufferers) the perception of a word (in this case, love) is applicable to a UNIQUE individual. Oh... Is this too "politically INcorrect"? Sorry, but deep down inside we all know it's true. We shouldn't feel the need to model our behavior around hypocritical laws or societal 'duties', but we ALL do it ANYWAY.

Now I know that pretty much everyone on this forum, myself included, would LOVE to think we are so special and perfect because we know how to write a grammatically correct sentence, but there will come a point in time when we realize that the only thing brilliant writing and poetic garble does is inflate our ego. We need to feel relevant, we need to feel like someone actually gives a dam n about us, since in our real lives no one really does give a dam n about us, so we tack on artsy little avatars log onto computers and verbally spew whatever crap comes to our head on a dinky little website. I do it, you do it, we all do it, we are going to continue to do it till we reach our graves or until we develop carpel tunnel from years of typing (whichever comes first) and in the end we will accomplish something SPECTACU... Oh wait, I meant nothing. So, I will continue to be irrelevant and so will everyone else here.

Hm. Did I just type three paragraphs without misspelling more than 7 words??? Two more ego points for me! :D

[YesNo]

What I mean is it doesn't make you creative, it allows you to tap into your natural creativeness. everyone is creative, but most are too tense to relax and use their minds in that way.

There is a benefit to being able to relax. Having enough food so one isn't hungry should help creativity also. Overeating is bad for creativity as well.

I think you are correct in saying that drugs don't make one creative. Neither does food. Does anything actually make one more creative? Since we have brain scans today, and can probably point to areas in the brain that can be associated with creativity, and know the brain changes, we might be able to come up with some answers to that. I don't think it is entheogens, whatever other benefits they might have, but it could be some forms of meditation or breathing exercises.

[hypatia_]

There is a benefit to being able to relax. Having enough food so one isn't hungry should help creativity also. Overeating is bad for creativity as well.

I think you are correct in saying that drugs don't make one creative. Neither does food. Does anything actually make one more creative? Since we have brain scans today, and can probably point to areas in the brain that can be associated with creativity, and know the brain changes, we might be able to come up with some answers to that. I don't think it is entheogens, whatever other benefits they might have, but it could be some forms of meditation or breathing exercises.

Yup. meditation and breathing exercises are a way to relax your mind, to calm the hustle and bustle, allowing you to focus. creativity is partially based on focus, though another aspect of it is this interesting sort of "lack of thinking" that enables you to think. i'm sure there's a word for it.

[Mathor]

Though i'll agree with most of the above people, who say that one is creative through natural means, I do not know if that is completely possible for all people. Everyone thinks and responds to different stimuli in many different ways. Every experience or emotion or thought or inflection can be deduced down to chemicals in the brain. All drugs, from caffeine to alcohol to LSD, simply serve as artificial neuroreceptors. I think it is most important to look at physical negatives that can come up when trying to use drugs to simulate things that could be established through meditation or other means, but I would agree that some drugs can lead to more creativity in certain cases.

Indeed, it is all within our minds, but different people choose different means for fishing things out of our minds. The choice of which method is best, is certainly up the person.

Myself, I habitually use caffeine as a means for being more creative, or at least a means for motivating myself to be more creative :arf:

EDIT: In terms of what the original poster said:

is drug usage justified as far as art and expressions are concerned?
is it ok to write or indulge arts under the influence if so why?
many claim to have had second comings enlightenement and better expressive powers when writing or visualising art.
one book that comes to mind is ''Clockwork Orange'' written under the influence of opium admittedly by its own author Anthony Burgess.

To answer your first question it is up for debate which particular drugs and uses are justified and I think that differs from person to person

Your second question is a continuation of the first question. Faulkner was a heavy binge drinker, though he often said he rarely drank when he wrote. I do not know of this completely true. Dostoevsky openly admitted to being rather drunk when he wrote the majority of his works, and he would even often edit and peer review his works while drunk. Ken Kesey (One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest) and Jack Kerouac admitted to using psychedelic drugs while writing their books. Certainly, this can also describe many musicians and painters, which pretty much answers your third question.

Again, it is up for debate which drugs are good and which drugs are bad, but I'd argue that a lot of drugs have "helped" many artists and writers in the past.

[Mathor]

Any and every drug responds to any and every person differently. The brain is complex. Whether or not some of these terrible substances like alcohol should be illegal does not really have anything to do with the OP's original post. The artistic implications of any and all drugs are a moral decision first and foremost. The implied legality of any of those things will differ from country to country, and means nothing when it comes to whether it is morally "right" to use artificial chemicals like caffeine or alcohol or weed to ingest or create art.

[hypatia_]

Interesting how legality and morality rarely overlap.

[MrsAngelElms]

I believe that taking a drug shrugs off the preconceptions, perimeters and restrictions that your own mind creates due to the status quo. Some great literary works which push the boundaries of thought and take you to a whole 'nother level probably would not have done so if they were not drug induced, though the greatest minds can reach that pedestal without taking the shortcut. I believe that when used once in a blue moon drug taking can release you and encourage your wilder side which will come out in any art you create. But taken regularly as a matter of course will cloud your mind to the articulated side of what you are trying to achieve and make it worthless, dulling your wits. Use, not abuse, all in the name of art.

[WyattGwyon]

It might be good — after several weeks — to clarify a few issues.

First of all, and unless one is on drugs continuously, dawn to dusk, the notion of writing under the influence is meaningless, trivial, and academic. You write something stoned and read it later. If it has promise you revise it, more likely than not while sober if for no other than mere statistical reasons — like being sober more than one is stoned.

And why must composing high versus straight be framed as a question of better or worse? Perhaps the essential thing is not whether one state or the other is better suited to creative activity, but whether seeing an aesthetic object from two different perspectives might be better than seeing it from one. Long familiarity with a work in progress can make it difficult to see what one is creating as an outsider might — that is, purely as an object of aesthetic contemplation. And sometimes this sort of external, estranged perspective is just what one needs to solve a problem or suggest a new direction. Some folks I have talked to report this "making strange" (as Schkolvsky, the Russian formalist, is sometimes translated) helpful.

And the issue of long term versus short term abuse is important too. The occasional altered state might be conducive to creativity in the short term while habitual abuse might lead to a degeneration of ones creative powers over time.

Okay, I'm bored. Think I'll go smoke a joint.