Sensation of symbolism

[b]

Sauntering through a smoggy sea
scrubby sand sticks to my sweaty skin
in salt.

A raving blast of sultry wind
suffocates my dusty face
and stuffs my soaking eyes
with soil.

And I snort.

My dry tongue strangels
in a rubby mouth
and I swallow
the crumbled bits
of a cracked palate.

So I collapse.

My nose is glued
with the smelling stench
of a foul-faced earth.

I see.

What do you think of this?

[Shea]

I like the alliteration and the imagry made me crinkle up my face as I read it. (sort of embarrasing since I'm in a public library.)

[b]

Hello Shea,

If you have enough time, do you please want to give a detailed line by line interpretation of this poem?

Thanks.

[Koa]

i like the allitteration too...
...and there are a lot of words i don't know... :oops:

[b]

Hello koa,

That's a pity. If I can find a good Enlish - Italian dictionary, I will try to translate it.

I was hoping that you might give me a line to line interpretation, so I could know which assosiations you get when you read it. (They probably don't have to do anything with love - like with your poem that I read recently...)

[Koa]

don't worry about a dictionary, i know a good enough one. (www.wordreference.com, incase you're wondering)

i'll try to read it more deeper as soon as i can, but i wanr you i'm rather bad at analysing, my mind is not really capable of concentration anymore ;)

[b]

Thanks! That was just the kind of dictionary that I was looking for.

ps. I think my Italian grammar is very bad and some of the alleratations might be lost... But I will try to make it work anyway.

[Koa]

hey guy, i'm going to look up the words myself, i just meant that you don't have to take the disturb to translate it for me... Well of course you can do it if you enjoy it, it might be good practise if you want to improve your italian :)

[b]

Of course I enjoy translating it. (As I explain in your post.)

[Shea]

I don't know about line by line interpretation, but to me it's just sort of fun to read. The imagry is interesting but confusing if the author (is it you?) is talking about the same physical place from stanza to stanza.

In the first stanza, you could say the person is in a place like southern California where there is smog, heat, and sand. But the second is talking about wind, when wind and smog don't coexist.

The fourth stanza definately describes thirst in a very visual way, yet I don't know what "rubby" means.

To me the last three stanzas could represent the finalities of a polluted earth. I remember, when I lived in the Ohio Valley, it was nicknamed "Cancer Valley" because of all the chemical factories there. I couldn't even wear contacts in my eyes because the pollution in the air would cause my eyes to burn whenever I had them in.

"I see." to me means in perspective of the pollution, that warnings that went unheeded now make sense.

I don't know, could I have seen the poem wrong?

[Koa]

The only thing i really can say about it is that i find it STRONG. I like the strength, of the words, of the imagery... (lol the first stanza reminded me of how much i hate sand when i go to the seaside...;))

The 'i see' at the end is to me a big question mark....it's like 'what?? what do you see? some kind of awareness? (that the world sucks, perhaps? ;))'

Shea, your interpretation is nice...what i want to say is that i think that every personal interpretetation of a poem can work, even if the author was meaning it in a different way...but that's just my view...

[Shea]

I like to analize stories more than poems, so when I was in high school, I always listened to my classmates analysis of poem and always thought that my view of it had been wrong; that I missed something somewhere. I love to read poems though, especially one like this just for the way it sounds and moves. Please let me know if there is no 'one' way to analyze a poem.

[Koa]

I find it hard too, to analyse poems... i can feel something but i can't express it, make it rational...
Moreover, i've been shocked by a mad teacher of german who wanted an accurate written analysis of every poem we were reading at school...it was terrible, both our understanding and written ability in german were still rather low, and we ended up inventing any possible thing about the menaing of every word and trying to express it somehow
...Maybe soemtimes poetry is more enjoyable from a point of view of feeling, not of analysis...analysis is good if you actually have something to say about it, but if it's forced it's just fake... That's why i can't comment much on this poem, apart from what i've already said...it doesnt seem to work on the rational side of me, it just remains lost in a mix of thoughts.

[b]

Poems are complex expressions of emotions and personal feelings. By means of association and the metaphorical use of language, the reader can subcousciously have the same feeling that the writer had - when the expression of thought is perfect.

To analyse poetry is in fact to search for the original feeling of the writer and express it on a non-poetical, abstract kind of way. It is also to look whether the associations and metaphores that the writer uses are encouraging the transmission of the poet's feeling.

To analyse a poem rationally and critically is actually a controversial aproch to poetry in realationship to poetry itself, in which not the abstract, rational way of thinking is important, but rather the more assosiative, emotional and subcounscious kind of way.

That discussion about the controversion of poetical analysation is one of the things that I tried to encourage by means of this poem. Let me explain:

The feeling of this poem that I had when I started writing, was not very emotional and personal as usual: I wrote this poem in a 'l'art pour l'art' and 'language-philosophical context'. I try to image a certain feeling that is not about love or something, but that represented the associative way of human thinking itself.

The main feeling in this poem is about the association of human-physical uncomfortability in it's surroundings. It is an associative stream of conciousness about sand, heat and 'desert', which isn't used as a metaphore for an emotional feeling or something. But everybody who reads this and is 'into poetry enough', is waiting for the revelation of the original feeling of the poet, for which the reader thinks that the lines about sand are a metaphore. (I thought...) Since that expectation of the reader isn't answered - eventually - the reader gets a kind of uncomfortable feeling: she or he gets disoriented. That is why the lines about sand and are also expressing a kind of mental incomfortablity: that of confusion.

So this poem - on another layer of reality - describes a part of the structure of the associative aspect of human mind: the confusion that context and metaphores - nuanced interaction - can diliver.

The line "I see" - in the end - confirms that: throuhgout the poem the reader is constantly blinded and buried with assosiations that have no fysical function in the text, just like the relationship between the narrator and the sand: she or he gets blinded by it. When the poem ends, the reader and the protagonist are released from the interaction: they can see again.

ps.

Koa: nice to know that you thought about the way in which you hate the sand so much when you go to the beach; that is one of the things that I thought of when I began writing!

[Koa]

I must say it makes more sense to me now that it has been explained... i can see something more behin the strength ;)

(and isnt sand annoying?? i hate the beach...maybe i've had too much of it as a child, when we went every summer...;))

[b]

Yes I do hate the beach. I don't know why so many people gather every time on such a destestalbe spot. Do they go there because they want to feel sultry, smoggy, scrubby, salty, dusty, soiled, sweaty and foul or what? I understand that you want to enjoy the sun, but on a beach...

(I like the water though. But not the salt. I bet you know Lago di Garda, near Verona. When you find a non-sandy beach and when it is not too hot, you can have a good time there. (You would be well advised to evade those barbaric German tourists, though...))

[Koa]

well the german invasion is a part of the life of who lives around here, believe me...we can't do without it! ;)

though if a beach doesnt have send, it has stones...which can be worse...(anyway, i know the spots you're talking about).

i detest sunbathing as well...the sun is too hot...even if i try to relax and read something or listen to music, i just feel too hot... bleah...but italians love sun ...that's one of the many reasons why my own mum wonders if i'm really her daughter...;)

oh how good i am at going off-topic! :)

[b]

This discussion isn't of topic at all: we are just analysing the poem on a more detailed level now. ;)

It seems that every European likes the sun, exept you and I - perhaps. Most tourists don't go to Italy because of the fine art and culture, but because of - what they consider a better - climate.

(It is awful to see culture-trampling Dutch tourists lie rotting in their sunoil-sand barbeque-sauce and frie their fat meat in the baking sun on a cheap camping site near a polluted river that is also used as an open sewer. (Huh.))

In the age of Romance, about hundred years ago, a sunbaked skin was always associated with peasants and barbarism: countrymen had to work hard in the summer and so the got a brown colour. Nowadays, the people who would have become peasants, are ironically living in a mass-culture in which a brown skin is associated with welth and beauty...

[Koa]

Indeed... people spend money to go to an indoor place and have a lamp on thir face cos looking dark looks more 'cool' and more 'healthy'... that's crazy to me... My father spends the summers accusing me of being too pale, like avoiding to sunbathe was some kind of wicked crime... I guess they haven't understood yet that i'm a vampire, therefore i have to avoid the sun :D

Oh yes, the poor 'northern' tourists look soooo bright red after exposure to the sun... their skin must be burned completely! (i know a german boyt who has been only to the north of italy because going where the sun is stronger might cause even worse sunburnt to him...)

Oh another thing: does the sun shines less brightly, the more northern you go??? My English friend assures me that the thing that annoyed him most in the italian summer was the brightness of the sun, which is nver that bright in england... I guess it might be possible, because of how the rays of the sun reach different areas of the earth... but i'm terrbile at sciences, so my theory might be weird... :rolleyes:

[b]

Well, I think you're right. When you get closer to the equator, more rays of sun descend on your poor white vampire skin. :evil: A diehard norhern tourist isn't scared of the sun though: by covering themselves in oil, they prevent themselves from baking too fast. :evil:

( ;) - why don't they include sunbaked smilies? - ;) )

And a sun-browned skin body isn't something that I immediately associate with beauty or health. I think it is controversial to assume that the sun-bading can improve your beauty. Real beauty needs no sun, for it shines and sparkles itself, doesn't it?

ps. Is the german invasion so dominant in your culture that you've even made friends with them? ;)

(Are you attending an international university, or something?)

[Koa]

I havent made friends with any german invaders, but i'm planning to apply to work as a guide next year (too late for this year...).
The invasion can't pass unnoticed tho...all signs in the area of Lake Garda, and often in Verona as well, are bilingual, Italian and German, in the summer (i mean signs of places, bars, restaurants hotels etc...). Plus, everybody deeply criticises my choice of not going on studying German (my german actually sucks and they'll all predict i won't find a job in this area...well done, i'd rather leave! ;))

I'm attending a normally crappy italian university, where students complain when they have to do an exam in english (mind you, it exclusively happens at languages faculty, in the others most people dont usually have a clue about how to speak a foreign language)...this country is at a prehistorical level about teaching languages- i'm among the exceptions cos i've always loved languages and i'm using the net too much lately, always using english, which made me improve a lot.

[b]

As a tourist guide huh?

Well, I've been thinking to join an organisation that guides American and English visitors through Rome, but since I won't be free to go where I want on such a travel, I am not so enthousiastic about that as I was once.

But in your situation that is very different - of course. I feel sorry - though - for the fact that the German language is so dominant in your environment, for I really dislike the sound of the German language. I read and like some German literature though - Goethe! -, but when it comes to having a daily life converation with a German-speaking person, I always pretend that I don't speak German...

The linguistical situation at Dutch universities is not so bad though. Because The Netherlands have no dominant culture themselves, they adapt themselves to the dominant Western culture - that of the USA - and profs often even teach in English!

[Koa]

I know about Dutch people being good at langauges-especially english. Here it's very rare to have lessons in english, unless it's a languages university (but then only the lessons of english are in english)... Moreover, italy, like french and german, uses dubbing for the movies, so you never get to hear anything in another language...

I dont like German much either, it's the language i'm worse at, cos i've studied it for 'only' 3 years and i wasnt very good...it's complicated and 90% of the teachers are mad and make you hate it. I don't like most of the German literature, it even seems to me that even when the story would actually be good (e.g. Der Tod in Venedig/Death in Venice), the style is low and boring-maybe even because of the language!

I really should try Dutch someday but...let me confess that it appeals to me even less than German... The very few times i've heard Dutch, it seemed to me so 'hard', that German is sweet in comparaison! :o

[Shea]

hi!

You guys seem to be so deep in a discussion, but I wanted to say something too! About the languages, I've always wanted to be biligual but in the states, education seemed to work against me. I studied Spanish when I was in high school, and the first teacher I had was too involved in making us pronounce everything correctly that we didn't get very far. The second teacher I had spoke it with an american southern drawl which confused me entirely. Plus, she was well ahead of where I had left off with the first teacher. My husband is teaching himself, I hope he can teach me better!

Back to the poem, I also hate beaches! I spent most of my life in Florida and the only thing to me that the sun is good for here are the beautiful sunsets! I've never seen them the same anywhere else!

Another thing I don't understand is why they have those tanning beds here! If you drive 2 miles inland your sure to see people paying money to use them. Anyway, tanning makes you age faster, and in a society that's so youth concious, it makes it even more ridiculous. :-?

[b]

Well Shea,

Because the USA is such a big country, it isn't appealing for most people to become bilingual. A friend of mine told me that Spanish is thaught on your high schools, on such a way as English is thaught at our's.

But I think that only goes for the more Southern states, since they boarder Mexico. The Netherlands - you have heared about Amsterdam, didn't you? - boarder to the Germany and Belium, but don't speak their languages fluently. The Dutch are much more influenced by the pop-music and most of the holliwood crap that arrives here, so they speak Engilsh - when you're lucky.

(I believe I'm a rare species too in my country too, Koa...)

ps. (Koa)

I can understand that the Dutch language appears to you as even more difficult and boring than the German language. It is for a foreigner very hard to learn such unrational language: we are very inconsistent in our grammar. And the sound of it probably looks very German or Danish, or whatever Scandinavian language you have heared before. It was also a hard job for me to read Der Tod in Venedig, because the language was very archaic. But finished it in the end, though! (Nice story!)

But I can assure you: being born with the Dutch language isn't a wrong thing!

[Koa]

welcome to the discussion shea :)
from what i know, i think that the only countries that are worse than italy about languages, are the english speaking ones... there's probably a general lack of interest in improving the situation... Here it's improving very slowly: now children are taught english since when they're 6, while i started when i was 11...

Bloom, i wasnt saying that being dutch-speaker is bad... i don't know much about it, but it seems some kind of mixture between english and german, and i've been told it's not really hard... i was just saying that the sound of it seems so hard... I don't like the way it sounds, i can't help it. I adore the sound of spanish but i enver had the opportunity to study it, tho i can understand it and speak a very little bit, for obvious reasons of similarity with my native language. I also love the sound of eastern-european languages, that's why i'm learning Russian for a start ( that grammar makes you want to scream sometimes...but it's a lot of fun, once the shock passes... ;))

[b]

Well Koa,

To be honest - and a bit more objective, if that is possible - I don't like the sound of the Dutch language either, when I compare it to other languages around. I really adore the sound of French, Russian, Hebrew, English and Spanish with all their dialects and accents, but most of all: Italian.

When I went to the city-bookstore last evening, I was immediately charmed by the selling lady who had such wonderful Italian accent. I hadn't heared someone from Italy speak Dutch before, so it quite astonished me. So if you try to speak Dutch, an Italian accent isn't a problem - at least not to me.

Speaking about Italian... Have you already selected some of your Italian poems that you want me to read? I am beginning to get rather curious about them now!

[Koa]

well i hope your expectations won't be disillusioned (if this sentence makes sense in english ;))... don't hope for too much!

I am trying to decide which one i'd rather show- shame i often can't help writing about very personal feelings, which makes it harder to show. I'm in doubt between 2 or 3 things at the moment, so sooner or later you'll see.

I actually wonder how much you can understand italian, but it won't be a problem as you seem to master the main grammar structures, and for words there are dictionaries... :)

I really wonder why my inspiration is still blocked- i havent written anything at all (not even tried!) since last year...oh well, i guess it happens...

This forum is getting addictive by the way- but i wont visit so often as now from next week, cos i'll be busier

Oh i almost forgot: for languages lovers: www.unilang.org

[b]

I really wonder why my inspiration is still blocked- i havent written anything at all (not even tried!) since last year...oh well, i guess it happens...


Well, my inspiration is starting to get blocked too. Because I am too buisy with my studies, I can't spend enough time to my own writings anymore. The most recent thing that I finished - apart from a few poems - was a piece of Dutch proze, which I sent to a publishing-contest. (I hope I'll win: the next week or so they will say who has won.)

The things that have 'insprired' me most in my life, occurred to me often in a change of environment. When I am with my vacations, I always see new things that I want to write about. There are also various kinds of music that are inspiring for me. (Have you tried Jazz?)




This forum is getting addictive by the way- but i wont visit so often as now from next week, cos i'll be busier



It also addicts me... The friends that I have in real life are also fond of literature and writing, but they are not as passionate as I am. Since I wanted to open a new horizon by accesing a new language with my writings, the only alternative was to watch onine. I think that this forum - which we gave meaning ourselves - is exactly what I was looking for.

[Koa]

Oh well, i'm just addicted to talking...;) and since in real life not many people have the same interests as me...i end up online.

I rarely have found inspiration in travelling- soemtimes i see things and think of making a poem of that feeling, but i never manage to. It has happened only once so far. The period when i wrote more was a very sad period of my life, i just needed to express my feelings somehow- then from a need it became a habit... I' ve been busy as well lately, but in the past month i have been a bit more relaxed, but still nothing came. Nevermind...

I've often thought of contests, but i never sent anything. I wouldnt be able to work on something for that purpose, because thiking that my thing will be read is the best way to block me completely. Nor i can send things i already have written...i'm still too shy about sharing, i've never shared as much as in this period...

Oh and i'm not into jazz... rock songs with good maybe sad lyrics inspire me more.

[b]

But Koa,

You didn't travel to Italy! You were born there! You should try to imagine how inspiring it is for someone who has lived all his life in Holland to visit that beautiful country of yours!

The inspiration that Italy gave me still inspires me, as we speak!

[Koa]

Oh ok...but you said travelling in general, didn't you? ;)

[b]

Yes... But you could have guessed which countries I meant by that.

(How annoying is this way of communication. Does this site have any chat options? That would be much more humain!)

[Koa]

im finding it funny- im used too chat (way too much...*addicted addicted addicted*), but this slowly way of replying is kinda...weird...almost like a movie in slow motion or something ;)

[shadow]

you guys should chat on aim or something cus its just you two talking.lol

[Koa]

yeah we noticed...i have a bad habit of taking over every thread...

as for chatting privately, we're working on it, it just wasnt possible so far.

anyway, feel free to join the conversation! (if noone does, i assume noone has soemthing to say on the topic) :)