G. R.R Martin "Game of the thrones"

[hannah_arendt]

I want to ask you about you opinions about G.R.R. Martin`s works. What do you think about the series based on " Game of the thrones"?

[Charles Darnay]

Are we talking about the show or the book series A Song of Ice and Fire? Both are excellent either way. There are a few discussions buried in these boards about ASOIAF, and Game of Thrones. Just dig around.

[kev67]

I haven't watched it. I heard Hilary Mantel, double Booker prize winner say it was very good. I also read Tom Holland, who writes very entertaining history books, praise it. It sounds like my sort of thing but it's on one of Rupert Murdoch's subscription channels over here. I have noticed the books in the bookshop and the thing that strikes me most about them is that they are very thick. Apparently, G.R.R. Martin aims to write seven of them, which means two are left to be written. That is slightly worrying because he is getting on. I hope he lives longs enough to finish them.

[hannah_arendt]

Are we talking about the show or the book series A Song of Ice and Fire? Both are excellent either way. There are a few discussions buried in these boards about ASOIAF,
and Game of Thrones. Just dig around.

Yes, we are:)
I have read it in polish and I found it very good. However there is one element I don`t like, sex scenes. I think that shouldn`t have developped this element so widely.

[Charles Darnay]

You're not alone there I suppose: the over use of sex and rape turns people off the series. However, he really is trying to portray a carnal world, one in which sex plays as big a part as war, and the feeling of discomfort from reading these scenes (or the feeling of excitement depending on who you are, no judgement here ;) ) is really what makes his world so vivid and draws you into the books.

[Vota]

I've never found the series to be gratuitous on rape, but then perhaps some of the books I've read over the years has desensitized me to it. As far as fantasy goes, this series is the cream of the crop. I'm not saying it's the best, but it's definitely up there. It's very realistic fantasy, as compared to The Chronicles of Narnia, or The Lord of the Rings.

[Paulclem]

I think it is pretty graphic, but it is portraying a universe parallel to medieval history. The 100 years war in Europe, the Wars of the Roses etc were all violent times dominated by gangs of men. I don't think he's stretching the imagination too much.

[Aylinn]

I tried to read the first book, but there is too much violence for me and I am not a fan of series that paint a bleak picture of the world and humans. I enjoyed both seasons of Game of Thrones, though. Most likely because watching is not such a big commitment as reading the books, and as a result it is less depressing.

[hannah_arendt]

You're not alone there I suppose: the over use of sex and rape turns people off the series. However, he really is trying to portray a carnal world, one in which sex plays as big a part as war, and the feeling of discomfort from reading these scenes (or the feeling of excitement depending on who you are, no judgement here ;) ) is really what makes his world so vivid and draws you into the books.

You are right. I am not against erotic elements because they are sometimes needed but everything should be moderated.

[hannah_arendt]

Do you have your favourite characters? I liked very much Catelyn Stark and Daenerys.

[JuniperWoolf]

I seriously have never met ANYONE who likes Catelyn Stark.

[Charles Darnay]

^Same. She just gets more and more infuriating as the books go on. Although each character has their moments - and some subplots are better than others. Cersei of Game of Thrones is infuriating, but in Feast For Crows her plot lends to more sympathy - or at least shadenfreudian pleasure.

[Babyguile]

What happens next? What happens next? It's a soap opera on a page. From what I read and hear, the level of literary analysis goes something like: 'I don't like that book because I don't like what happens to character X at the end'. 'I like this book the most because it has the most chapters of character Y, who is my favourite'. I find it hard to see these books as novels. It's The Simpsons. It's Beverly Hills 90210 with tunics.

Martin seems to be struggling to write the volumes the longer the series gets: A Dance with Dragons took him five years. I would counsel Martin not to bother writing them any more. Instead, he should work full-time as the screenwriter for the HBO series; the "novels" being so well-suited to all those other dramas on TV right now that never seem to end, or want to. It kind of seems pointless for the novels even to exist now the television series is so hot.

[Babyguile]

Cersei of Game of Thrones is infuriating, but in Feast For Crows her plot lends to more sympathy - or at least shadenfreudian pleasure.

May I say that this dismissive attitude towards Cersei is indicative of Martin's abysmal skills at creating female characters? Is she infuriating in Game of Thrones when she is being beaten by her husband, even as she sits next to him on her throne as queen for Never Neverland or whatever it is?

[Charles Darnay]

who needs to read Pride and Prejudice when you can see Collin Firth as Darcy? Don't people spend their time wondering whether Gatsby and Daisy should have gotten together? Your criticism can be applied to any work of fiction.

[Charles Darnay]

The dismissive attitude towards women is more a reflection of the time Martin is portraying than his writing style. There are plenty of well written characters (including Cersei), as well as Arya, Ariadne, Dany &c.

[OrphanPip]

Describing Cersei as a character that just sits around and gets beaten isn't really accurate, after all she pretty much orchestrates the murder of her husband and seizes the throne for her son/herself. People don't like Cersei in the first book because she is introduced as a ruthless and power crazy character and Martin didn't really begin to develop other elements of her character until later novels. Even though she isn't a likable character, that doesn't mean she is a poorly crafted one in the first novel, she is the main antagonist (as far as they exist in the novel) for much of the King's Landing plot and villains are the type of character people love to hate.

[hannah_arendt]

What happens next? What happens next? It's a soap opera on a page. From what I read and hear, the level of literary analysis goes something like: 'I don't like that book because I don't like what happens to character X at the end'. 'I like this book the most because it has the most chapters of character Y, who is my favourite'. I find it hard to see these books as novels. It's The Simpsons. It's Beverly Hills 90210 with tunics.

Martin seems to be struggling to write the volumes the longer the series gets: A Dance with Dragons took him five years. I would counsel Martin not to bother writing them any more. Instead, he should work full-time as the screenwriter for the HBO series; the "novels" being so well-suited to all those other dramas on TV right now that never seem to end, or want to. It kind of seems pointless for the novels even to exist now the television series is so hot.

It seems to me that Martin doesn`t know how he should to finish this story.

[hannah_arendt]

I don`t think that Martin has a negative attitude towards women. What about Daenerys? Is she a weak character? At the very beginning she is dominated by her brother but later we see how she is maturing.

[JuniperWoolf]

May I say that this dismissive attitude towards Cersei is indicative of Martin's abysmal skills at creating female characters? Is she infuriating in Game of Thrones when she is being beaten by her husband, even as she sits next to him on her throne as queen for Never Neverland or whatever it is?

I think he's good at writing female characters in that they have as much complex personality differentiation among them as male characters (almost as though women are people /sarcasm). Many of his female characters are actually likeable, which you don't find in writers who suck at writing women because to them all women are either attractive but soulless bodies, purity incarnate, or annoying and nagging stereotypical overbearing wife types. Think about the differences between and likeability of Arya, the sand snakes, Sansa, Ygritte, the waif, Asha, Olenna Redwyne the Queen of Thorns, Margaery, Osha, Arianne Martell, Missandei, BRIENNE for God's sake, and of course by far the most powerful and one of the most complex characters in the asoiaf universe is Daenerys. He also brings violence against women and children to the forefront, rather than pretending it wouldn't exist in a slave society or a feudal system, especially one in the grips of war. In fact, GRRM has called himself a feminist (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/9959063/Game-of-Throness-George-RR-Martin-Im-a-feminist.html) and his fan base is more than 50% female.


It seems to me that Martin doesn`t know how he should to finish this story.

I've become an embarassingly big fan of asoiaf in the last year or so and spent some time (*cough*hours*cough*) discussing how the series could play out, theories, various easter eggs in the books (example: the tough black cat that Arya chases around the castle and who torments Tommen's kittens was Rhaenys Targaryen's kitten Balerion who has been roaming free around King's Landing ever since her death) and so on. There are a lot of ways that he could finish the story, and there's evidence that he's had ideas about how the story would end from it's beginning. Sometimes he says things in an early book that go on to predict something several books later, and there are the occasional subtleties that take some time before they click. For example:

I don't know how to wrap spoiler tags around something on litnet, or if we even can, so I'll just say

SPOILERS!!!



SPOILERS!!!



Serious SPOILERS below!!!



Okay. Favorite easter eggs/clues:

1. When Catelyn asks The Late Lord Frey for salt and bread to ensure protection under guest rights just prior to the Red Wedding, he grants them. But, he slips the word "mayhaps" in there twice (after mentioning wine, the red will run, and then old wrongs will be put to rights). If you remember Bran and Rickon playing Lord of the Crossing with the Walders sent to foster at Winterfell, the rules included being able to break your vows if you could say "mayhaps" without it being noticed.

2. Arya's passage to Braavos, everyone gives her gifts and makes her repeat their names and even the captain's son going so far as having his last words to her be "do you remember who I am?" If a faceless man knows you, they are not sent to kill you. The entire reason her little coin works on getting help is that if you go out of your way to make yourself known to a FM then that person cannot be sent to kill you. The crew that was making crude jokes at this tiny girl are now only being nice as a form of insurance that she won't murder them later.

3. Arya has a discussion/argument with Elmar Frey, a boy her age, while she's undercover as a servant girl in Harrenhal. Elmar says that he's been engaged to a princess, and keeps saying his princess will be so much more awesome than Arya, because she will be noble and know only to speak when asked etc. Then later he cries because things changed and he won't get to marry his princess, or ever see her again. The "princess" he was engaged to was Arya Stark, as agreed to by Catelyn when she went to bargain with Lord Frey. After Robb betrayed Lord Frey, the deal was cancelled. Elmar was talking to his beloved princess, and neither of them even realised it.

4. As Jaime and Brienne are on the river Jaime recalls Lyanna Stark. He says something to the effect of "Pretty girl, and wild, but her hips were too narrow so everyone thought she would die in childbirth." This heavily supports the theory that Lyanna is Jon Snow's mother, his father is Rhaegar Targaryen, and she died (in the "bed of blood") giving birth to Jon Snow. She made Ned promise not to say anything, likely because she knew Robert would kill her son.

5. Sansa foreshadows Janos Slynt's death: "Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head."

6. Robert to Ned, regarding Sansa's wolf: "get her a dog, she'll be happier for it." Foreshadowing her weird protective relationship with The Hound.

7. In ACoK, when Catelyn is in Renly's pavilion, she sees her reflection in his armor and notes that she looks like a drowned woman. Foreshadowing to her time spent in the river after the Red Wedding, and her appearance after her resurrection.

[Babyguile]

I think he's good at writing female characters in that they have as much complex personality differentiation among them as male characters (almost as though women are people /sarcasm). Many of his female characters are actually likeable, which you don't find in writers who suck at writing women because to them all women are either attractive but soulless bodies, purity incarnate, or annoying and nagging stereotypical overbearing wife types. Think about the differences between and likeability of Arya, the sand snakes, Sansa, Ygritte, the waif, Asha, Olenna Redwyne the Queen of Thorns, Margaery, Osha, Arianne Martell, Missandei, BRIENNE for God's sake, and of course by far the most powerful and one of the most complex characters in the asoiaf universe is Daenerys. He also brings violence against women and children to the forefront, rather than pretending it wouldn't exist in a slave society or a feudal system, especially one in the grips of war. In fact, GRRM has called himself a feminist (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/9959063/Game-of-Throness-George-RR-Martin-Im-a-feminist.html) and his fan base is more than 50% female.

Martin a feminist? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. With the TV series being so popular and running alongside the books which are still being written, I can't help but think that what Martin writes and says has the interests of the TV series at its heart, rather than the books. I don't know what his personal motivations are (money, acclaim?), so I am naturally cynical of him.

Thinking back to when I read the first two books as a teenager, I was hurt and shocked deeply by the misogyny I encountered, such as the king abusing the queen in front of the court. The mistake I made was also to be offended by it, as if I was incriminating the author for the horrors of the book, rather than the characters and the society being depicted. So I agree with your claim that Martin bares all, and that this should be seen as a good thing. I will easily concede that point. Don't get me wrong, I still have issues with his books, and I wish someone like Robin Hobb's books received even half the attention that his books are receiving (yes I'm jealous), but some of the feminist attacks on his books and the series have been misguided, which is a shame because there's more to be made of that line of attack.

[hannah_arendt]

How would you end the whole story?

[Calidore]

I don't know what his personal motivations are (money, acclaim?), so I am naturally cynical of him.


I'd guess money, since he already has plenty of acclaim (he's been writing sci-fi/fantasy/horror for forty years and has won pretty much every major industry award for his writing, some multiple times). When I'd check his website to see if he had any mention of a date (even tentative) for the next volume, it would be filled with his announcements of licensing agreements, the TV show, other projects, etc. It's pretty hard to make money as a writer, and he clearly works his butt off, so I don't begrudge him his lucky windfall, but I kind of wish he'd settle down a bit. He's well over 60 and built like an opera singer, and has already said that, unlike Robert Jordan, he won't let anyone finish his series but him.

[qimissung]

I love the show. I like the books. I finished the first one, but so far have only made it about half-way through the second one. Actually what I did was read about half of it, then I read all the ones about Arya. I WILL go back and finish the book. :D My personal favorite is the girl Arya, but really I like all the Starks, even Catelyn. And of course Tyrion Lannister. And Jon Snow.

Lol, Calidore, I just read an article (which is several years old) about that very thing. He wanted to write something vast, but he's made it almost too big to control. Hoist in his own petard, so to speak. Just write, George R.R.!

[Paulclem]

Martin a feminist? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. With the TV series being so popular and running alongside the books which are still being written, I can't help but think that what Martin writes and says has the interests of the TV series at its heart, rather than the books. I don't know what his personal motivations are (money, acclaim?), so I am naturally cynical of him.

.

I started reading the series over ten years ago, and have waited for each instalment as it has come out. The task he set himself is massive, but it was established early on without an eye for the TV series. As has been said, he's dropped lucky at a time when an extensive series such as this can benefit from the current representations of novels on TV. It would never have happened 10+ years ago.

He's a fine writer - Fevre Dream about vampires on riverboats is the best vampire story I've read. The writing is quality, as it it in the whole series. I really liked his last two, and eagerly await his next. I'm waiting for the lad to return from abroad so we can watch the first series in its entirety and then get the second. Marvellous stuff.

[hannah_arendt]

I am sure that the series will encourage many people to start reading the book. I wish "Lord of the rings" had been done by HBO or BBC as a series.