problem with matthew 8:4

[Shaman_Raman]

So in this verse, Jesus tells someone he's healed of leprosy to tell no one what Jesus has done for him. However, the loud mouth goes and tells anyway. Now why would Jesus do this if, from what other points of scripture reference, he knows the future? He must have known all along the guy would have spilled the beans, right?

[Calidore]

8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you do not speak to anyone, but go, show yourself to a priest, and bring the offering6 that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”

I don't see anything about him ignoring Jesus' command for silence, though. Where was that?

The NET Bible has the following note to this passage: "The command for silence was probably meant to last only until the cleansing took place with the priests and sought to prevent Jesus’ healings from becoming the central focus of the people’s reaction to him. See also 9:30, 12:16, 16:20, and 17:9 for other cases where Jesus asks for silence concerning him and his ministry."

[Shaman_Raman]

8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you do not speak to anyone, but go, show yourself to a priest, and bring the offering6 that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”

I don't see anything about him ignoring Jesus' command for silence, though. Where was that?

The NET Bible has the following note to this passage: "The command for silence was probably meant to last only until the cleansing took place with the priests and sought to prevent Jesus’ healings from becoming the central focus of the people’s reaction to him. See also 9:30, 12:16, 16:20, and 17:9 for other cases where Jesus asks for silence concerning him and his ministry."

That's because I goofed majorly, hahaha. I'm sorry Calidore, I meant Matthew 9:29-31.
"29 And then he touched their eyes and said, 'according to your faith let it be done to you.'; 30 and their sight was restored. Jesus warned them sternly, 'see that no one knows about this.' 31 But they spread the news about him all over the region."


I had been thinking on this for awhile, and when I came back to inquire about it, I think I rushed to find the verse, but I picked out the wrong one. So I understand that note on how Jesus wouldn't want his miracles being the central focus to him, but then why would he heal these men, knowing they were going to go talk about it anyway?

[YesNo]

So I understand that note on how Jesus wouldn't want his miracles being the central focus to him, but then why would he heal these men, knowing they were going to go talk about it anyway?

Why would he know they were going to talk about it anyway? Don't they have any free will to do what they want?

[Shaman_Raman]

Why would he know they were going to talk about it anyway? Don't they have any free will to do what they want?

Well the point I was making is that if Jesus talked about the prophecy of his death, and Judas betraying him, and him ascending from death, wouldn't he know two guys he healed were going to go tell everyone about him? I don't imagine a prophets future reading radar just goes on and off randomly.

But you do raise a good point about free will. Because on one hand God has granted us free will, but on the other hand, I believe it's referenced all who are saved are already known to Jesus in the Book of Life. So, which is an illusion: free will, or predestination?

[YesNo]

There are intuitive people who seem to know some of the future. The books Laura Day has written make me suspect she is one of them, but they don't always get things right. In the case of these divine incarnations, such as Jesus, Rama or Krishna, they act as if they are trying to convince people to do something one way or the other. I agree with you, if they already knew, with perfect deterministic knowledge, what someone would do, why try to convince that person to do one thing or the other? So I assume that even incarnations of divinity have no complete knowledge of the future although they may have intuitive glimpses like Day might have. Some things they can predict, others not. Even their predictions could come out wrong. That doesn't mean they are not divine.

I don't think it is possible for any God to have perfect deterministic knowledge of what will happen just based on quantum physics. No state of the universe even exists upon which to deterministically predict a different state past or future.

However, free will is far from absolute and people have a lot of influences molding their actions. I think we have enough free will to be responsible and there is no predestination. Why assume this?

There are two reasons:

(1) We experience ourselves as having some limited freedom, and so to claim we do not challenges our experience which is the basis for doing any kind of science.

(2) A predestined universe is more trivial than one with freedom just as a machine is more trivial than a cat or dog. If God truly is omnipotent, he would not waste his time building a machine. He (or she) would leave that for us to make.

[cacian]

Well the point I was making is that if Jesus talked about the prophecy of his death, and Judas betraying him, and him ascending from death, wouldn't he know two guys he healed were going to go tell everyone about him? I don't imagine a prophets future reading radar just goes on and off randomly.

But you do raise a good point about free will. Because on one hand God has granted us free will, but on the other hand, I believe it's referenced all who are saved are already known to Jesus in the Book of Life. So, which is an illusion: free will, or predestination?

There Shaman are loopholes in the bible as there are loopholes in man. One is not to expect perfection when one isn't.

[cafolini]

There Shaman loopholes in the bible as there are loopholes in man. One is not to expect perfection when one isn't.

Men might claim not to be perfect to hide being perfect arceholes. They might feel much more confi that way, by denying the perfection of God in creating them, for the sake of justifyinbg the most stupid choices in what's available.

[cacian]

Men might claim not to be perfect to hide being perfect arceholes. They might feel much more confi that way, by denying the perfection of God in creating them, for the sake of justifyinbg the most stupid choices in what's available.

Good point but one approach this way and asks this:

with god being perfect does he/she expect his people to be perfect too? Logically I would say no because it is boring to watch the same all over again.
I would imagine god would want his people to be very different so that he could enjoy watching the differences. No point in looking like the madonna if i am going to buy the madonna painting on top of it too. I might as well use my mirror to reflect me and saves me money.
It is a bit like walking into a football match where i know every player is going to score a goal. What say you?
My logic tells me beware of rhyme me.

[cafolini]

Good point but one approach this way and asks this:

with god being perfect does he/she expect his people to be perfect too? Logically I would say no because it is boring to watch the same all over again.
I would imagine god would want his people to be very different so that he could enjoy watching the differences. No point in looking like the madonna if i am going to buy the madonna painting on top of it too. I might as well use my mirror to reflect me and saves me money.
It is a bit like walking into a football match where i know every player is going to score a goal. What say you?
My logic tells me beware of rhyme me.

But that every player would score a goal is not the perfection of it. On the contrary. That's upside down. The perfection is in the ability to make the goal. For that, the players must choose the available maneuvers and accomplish them. The perfection is that some will win over others and that must be accepted and recognized. Most players pray to God their choices will be the best. Then men give them trophies in recognition for their obedience to the best thinking and art.
You cracked me up with the thing about the frugality regarding the choice of a more complete mirror over the fixed image of the madonna at a much higher price. LOL

[cacian]

Putting matthew aside for a minute the problem with genesis is this:
If god was a He and mother nature a SHE then where is ANY going to gestate for nature and men don't mate? Humm....:rolleyes5: :idea::aureola:

[cafolini]

God can't have a gender. It would be ridiculous for men to think so. Who cares that's a mortal? Men chose the HE perfectly stupidly and are still paying for it with con-fusion. May their cons stay away from their fusions.

[Calidore]

Well the point I was making is that if Jesus talked about the prophecy of his death, and Judas betraying him, and him ascending from death, wouldn't he know two guys he healed were going to go tell everyone about him? I don't imagine a prophets future reading radar just goes on and off randomly.


Couple of ideas:

1) Jesus knew the big things (the prophecies and his future), but not necessarily every little thing (whether these two individual people would blab or not).

2) Even if he knew they would talk, the healing was the important thing.

[Shaman_Raman]

Couple of ideas:

1) Jesus knew the big things (the prophecies and his future), but not necessarily every little thing (whether these two individual people would blab of not.

2) Even if he knew they would talk, the healing was the important thing.

Indeed, both points can fit, personally I'd say the second holds a lot of merit. Even if Jesus couldn't get them to not talk,he had a duty to aid those desperately seeking him. How cruel would it read...:"and the Lord said, ´blind you will stay, but now with no tongue, for I've seen your deeds and your a bunch of liars.' And then he ripped out their tongues."

[Shaman_Raman]

There Shaman loopholes in the bible as there are loopholes in man. One is not to expect perfection when one isn't.

sure, but if I give up all questions on the premise of all not being perfect, then what a dull narrow world it'd be.

[cacian]

sure, but if I give up all questions on the premise of all not being perfect, then what a dull narrow world it'd be.

sure. so are we saying one is to make a mistake for another to solve? questions are make us tick.

[cafolini]

Jesus Superstar knew diddly-squat about it. The legendary Jesus of Nazareth was one of tens of sects. The main contribution was, as a legend, his re-enuntiation of the purpose of his fish in the meaning and purpose of God.
Until the third century, the Romans hammered the legend until it took flight and left some records.

[cacian]

Jesus Superstar knew diddly-squat about it. The legendary Jesus of Nazareth was one of tens of sects. The main contribution was, as a legend, his re-enuntiation of the purpose of his fish in the meaning and purpose of God.
Until the third century, the Romans hammered the legend until it took flight and left some records.

Jesus of Nazareth yes but do you know of Joseph or Youcef of Nazareth his cousin. Apparently he was a dark horse somewhere i read heard.
I have a speculation Jesus was not even the son of god but then that is another something for me to think about.
The reason I say that is that if Jesus was the son of god then Jesus may not have families or relations for he is to be unique to god. It is one blood from father to son. Now Jesus had cousins and that does not makes sense of he is to only be related to god. The same goes to the virgin she must have had cousins and so whatever happens to the lineage of god in terms of uniqueness. It is ain't clear is it .

[cafolini]

He is intended to be the respresentative of God on earth. For some Christians he is their human God through which they can reach God. It is perfectly clear that such is the case, although when it comes to the resurrection it is also perfectly clear that such is the theology. I don't know anything about it that is not clear.

[cacian]

With regards to postulancy and vows who does Jesus postulate to?
Postulants are to take to remain the ecclestistical religious monarchy and every one is a postulant to another higher the rank to remain within the religious matrimony of beliefs.
If the apostles are to postulate to Jesus then who to Jesus?

[cafolini]

Did you see how fast they elected new pope? He's an Argentine Tangerine. I think they hurried to be able to encourage fascist Argentine sovereignity over the Falklands in spite of the referendum said almost unanimously that the islanders want to be ruled by the UK. Another case similar to Gibraltar against the fascist Spanish government.

When in 1982 the Argentineans attacked Falklands and eventually lost the war, the UK gave citizenship to the islanders. So it will no be discussed any further. And the Vatican better don't get too involved if they don't want to be put to sleep faster.

[chrisiacovetti]

So in this verse, Jesus tells someone he's healed of leprosy to tell no one what Jesus has done for him. However, the loud mouth goes and tells anyway. Now why would Jesus do this if, from what other points of scripture reference, he knows the future? He must have known all along the guy would have spilled the beans, right?

What other points of scripture say that Jesus knew the future? He was a prophet like Isaiah, Malachi, or any other one, but he didn't personally have a magical knowledge of the future that I know of beyond this. He was aware that he would die and that Jerusalem's destruction was imminent, but I don't see him as aware of any other future events in the Gospel accounts.

[Shaman_Raman]

What other points of scripture say that Jesus knew the future? He was a prophet like Isaiah, Malachi, or any other one, but he didn't personally have a magical knowledge of the future that I know of beyond this. He was aware that he would die and that Jerusalem's destruction was imminent, but I don't see him as aware of any other future events in the Gospel accounts.

The gospels also recount Jesus telling of the coming end of times, and signs to watch for in those times. They also include how he knew people intimately that he had merely just met, like the woman at Jacob's well.

[Ecurb]

Here's a different take on the same story, this time from Mark.


“And Jesus took the blind man by the hand…and when He put His hands upon him, He asked him if he saw anything. And he looked up and said, “I see men looking like trees walking.” Mark, 8:24


“Seeing is believing,” according to the aphorism. But William Moyneux, whose wife was blind, asked philosopher John Locke: “Suppose a man was born blind and taught by touch to distinguish between a cube and a sphere. If his vision was restored, could he distinguish which was which before touching them?”

In several rare medical cases, the blind actually have had their vision restored. As reported by Oliver Sachs in An Anthropologist on Mars, the adjustment has not always been easy. H.S., a patient who received a corneal transplant after 22 years of blindness reported:


During the first weeks I had no appreciation of depth or distance; street lights were luminous stains stuck to the window panes, and the corridors of the hospitals were black holes…. Nor was it possible for me to count my own five fingers… it was not possible to pass from one to the other while counting.

All of the newly sighted have difficulty adjusting. S.B., another individual who had recovered his sight was always struck by how objects changed in appearance from different perspectives. For those not accustomed to seeing, this flux of appearances is not anchored to the world of objects – to space.

The infant learns to coordinate the impulses sent to the brain by his optic nerve with images sent by his sense of touch by batting a mobile around in his crib. As adults, we have no memory of this process of learning how to see. But Mark’s version of Jesus restoring the blind man’s sight is in remarkable agreement with the medical records. When Jesus first restores the man’s sight, the man can see, but cannot distinguish between men and trees. So Jesus,
“put His hands on his eyes again… and he saw every man clearly.” The miracle was actually two-fold (acc. Mark) – restoring physical sight and providing enlightenment as to how to interpret it.

[byquist]

Another view would be that Jesus' saw his healing of the man as a natural process, ie. that healing should be and is a natural phenomenon. And that the man should view the healing in that domain also, and not consider it as amazing, extraordinary, shocking. If the man keeps seeing it as an unusual event, then will he not be in a pickle if a future disease appears on his body? Whereas, if he keeps it low-keyed, and tries to understand what happened instead of blabbing about it, in the future he could heal himself of a malady should it appear. Jesus wanted people to study and begin to understand what principle was going on, not dance jigs when they received healings. But, they were happy and no doubt couldn't contain themselves. Only one of the ten lepers turned back to sincerely give Jesus thanks for the healing.

[Meeku]

Matthew 9:29-31:
"29 And then he touched their eyes and said, 'according to your faith let it be done to you.'; 30 and their sight was restored. Jesus warned them sternly, 'see that no one knows about this.' 31 But they spread the news about him all over the region."


The question: "So I understand that note on how Jesus wouldn't want his miracles being the central focus to him, but then why would he heal these men, knowing they were going to go talk about it anyway?"

If we look to earlier in the same book Matthew chapter 6 says:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Jesus is doing just as he taught others from the command which god has told him, to keep his good deeds in secret. Jesus is the perfect example to us on how to walk in truth and love. This is why he commanded them to stay silent, not because he knew or didn't know that they would spread news of his actions. He healed them because they had faith and jesus comes to show the love and compassion of his father.

Also in the book of luke chapter 23 where Jesus is crucified we see that since the people didn't listen to his command to keep quiet everyone knows of his deeds and they use it against him to say for him to save himself. It seems like it was necessary for all to know what he had done otherwise he would have gone to the cross guilty and forgotten as many others who had been put to death.

33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,
37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.


I know this is long but bear with me, Prophecy is complicated.. and this is the plain answer- he told them because it was commanded to him by his father- in order that all should come to pass as it was said in the beginning.
Look to John chapter 15:

7 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.