The War On The Human Spirit

[E.A Rumfield]

I get the feeling more and more that we live in a society that teaches its people to hate themselves. From the church/religion telling you that your natural functions are some how an affront to God. I mean telling people that sex is wrong is like telling people that urination is wrong. The idea of beauty the media portrays is an unfair one and anyone with young daughters, women themselves or men that love women might agree with me. Think about all the women with eating disorders, I'd say about half the women I've know have unhealthy eating habits. Or the idea that arrogance and machismo is equal to manliness. Or maybe the most American idea of them all, the thought that money is equal to happiness and you should hate yourself for being poor. I think we've all might a person falling directly under one of these categories and to some degree we are all victims. Intellectual pursuits are degraded, and in general I feel the human spirit is being eroded. Not to speak on the apparent automation of the human being or appeasement as a technique for control but, ideas that are installed by respected organizations that lead to self-hatred. Some time ago someone told us as children the television, our religious leader even our government were to be respected and trusted and they have abused us ever since.

[ftil]

You have just scratched the surface regarding women. It is a social engineering. A few examples.

Killing us softly


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSTg_6N0G7w&playnext=1&list=PLA895ABE3BD3D40C2&feature=results_main



Beyonce and pushing whore archetype.

http://www.lazygirls.info/Beyonce/Beyonce_4d31JcA


The theme of odalisque – a female sex slave attracted the attention of many painters. We even have had a member who complained that he wanted to have sexual relationships with a few women because of his strong sexual drive. So, women sex slaves. I just want to throw up. :yikes:

[Volya]

I completely agree.

[cafolini]

There is no war on the human spirit. Comparatively speaking, it never flourished so well as it does today.

[ftil]

There is no war on the human spirit. Comparatively speaking, it never flourished so well as it does today.

If you can’t see how bad it is………sweet dreams. But be sure that you will never wake up. :lol:
You would be mad like hell if you woke up on you deathbed.

[Paulclem]

The advertising video was very good. It is so scandalously obvious, but the other side of this coin is that it appears to celebrate women. That must be why it is so successful. it appears to be supportive, but of course - for all the reasons given - it is damaging particularly to young women and the attitudes of young men.

On the other hand lots of us live outside the bubble that this advertising, for instance, creates. Eventually you realise that, along with many others, that advertising really belongs to a parallel universe that has little relationship to you. I'm not saying it doesn't affect everyone - it certainly does. The subtle incursions into your consciousness over a period of time make you more and more susceptible to new products etc. The symbols for the lifestyles they promote - beyond the obvious sexual content - have little meaning. Then again, i'm not the target audience of very many of the adverts I see.

As for the apocalyptic state of the attack on the human spirit - I'm not convinced. Yes corporations and banks are trying to fleece you constantly, yes we can't trust producers to put healthy versions of the food we eat into their brands - but wasn't it ever the case? Obesity is the new smallpox in one sense. With wealth comes a new raft of disease. The basic human problems of how to live well and have a positive effect remain the same. "They" seem to be more powerful, but "we" are much more aware and thus can do our bit against it.

The challenge is to maintain integrity in the face of governments and companies and organisations who clearly do not. On the positive side, there are many good individuals around.

[ftil]

The advertising video was very good. It is so scandalously obvious, but the other side of this coin is that it appears to celebrate women. That must be why it is so successful. it appears to be supportive, but of course - for all the reasons given - it is damaging particularly to young women and the attitudes of young men.



Celebrating of women, eh? If I didn’t know you, I would say that you are quite confused. :lol: A few points from the video but there is much more than it has been presented in Killing Us Softly.



Advertising and Objectification

• Advertising tells women that what’s most important is how they look, and ads surround us with the image of ideal female beauty. However, this flawlessness cannot be achieved. It’s a look that’s been created through airbrushing, cosmetics, and computer retouching.

• Women’s bodies are often dismembered in ads. Just one part of the body – often breasts – is focused on

• The obsession with thinness is about cutting girls down to size – to aspire to become nothing.

• Some ads today seem to encourage unhealthy attitudes – even eating disorders.

• In all kinds of advertising, women’s bodies are turned into “things” and “objects.” Kilbourne believes this objectification creates a climate in which there is widespread violence against women.



Advertising and Sexual Pathology

• The sexualization of little girls has become much more extreme. For example, padded bras and thongs for seven-year-olds are now sold in major department stores.

• The United States has the highest rate of teen pregnancy, and the highest rates of sexually transmitted diseases by far, in the developed world.

• Images that used to belong to the world of pornography are now commonplace.

• The Internet has given everyone easy access to pornography.

• As girls learn from a very early age that their sexualized behavior and appearance are often rewarded by society, they’re encouraged to see this as their own choice – as a declaration of empowerment.

• Kilbourne wants to be very clear that there is nothing wrong with wanting to be attractive and sexy. What’s wrong, she says, is that this is emphasized for girls and women to the exclusion of other important qualities and aspects.

• Being “hot” has become the most important measure of success. This extremely superficial and limited definition of sexiness makes most women feel insecure, vulnerable, a much less sexy.

• In 2007, the American Psychological Association released a report concluding that girls exposed to sexualized images from a young age are more prone to depression, eating disorders, and low self-esteem.


Beyond Advertising, Consumerism & Violence

• Violent images make some people more aggressive, they desensitize just about everybody, and
they make most people more likely to blame the victim.

• The most dangerous image is one that eroticizes violence. Many ads feature women in bondage, battered, or even murdered.

• Battering is the single greatest cause of injury to women in America.

• One-third of all the women who are murdered in our country are killed by their male partners.

• Most men are not violent, but many men are afraid to speak out against it.

• The obsession with thinness, the tyranny of the ideal image of beauty, and violence against women are all public health problems that affect us all.

http://www.mediaed.org/assets/products/241/studyguide_241.pdf

[Paulclem]

it appears to celebrate women. That must be why it is so successful. it appears to be supportive, but of course - for all the reasons given - it is damaging particularly to young women and the attitudes of young men.

Ths is what I said, and what I mean is that by appearing to celebrate women it marginalises those who don't fit the ideal - most of them at any one point, and all of them eventually as they age. It's the only way tht advertising could be successful with women - by appearing to do this, as it has the collusion of those work that work for, and buy from, the various industries.

Confused? Certainly.

[ftil]

Ths is what I said, and what I mean is that by appearing to celebrate women it marginalises those who don't fit the ideal - most of them at any one point, and all of them eventually as they age. It's the only way tht advertising could be successful with women - by appearing to do this, as it has the collusion of those work that work for, and buy from, the various industries.

Confused? Certainly.

Definitely confused if it was the only massage you got form the video. :biggrin5:

[Paulclem]

Thanks for acknowledging the positive comment - I refer of course to the subtext of your post.

I didn't feel the need to restate the well presented arguments in the vid. I already said it was very good.

In terms of advertising and its negative effects on women, there seems to be a collusion between the companies, advertisers and consumers. It seems to me that education is part of the answer, and and a willingness to vote with money. That's really the motivator, and so it can be used against those who portray women badly. The problem is that as long as consumers - including in lots of cases women - don't act in concert, and continue to buy brands that use such advertising, then it will continue.

I remember the Playboy logo appearing on young girls clothing a few years ago, and my wife explaining to my daughter what the company was all about. My daughter then made her young informed choice, and wouldn't touch the stuff. I think it's really important to give people the option to make those informed choices.

[ftil]

Well, you may try hard to derail from the most important fact of social engineering. It is not just about advertisers and consumers. There is growing sexualization and objectification of young girls.

10 years old Thylane Blondeau

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2022305/Thylane-Lena-Rose-Blondeau-Shocking-images-10-YEAR-OLD-Vogue-model.html


Consequences of the sexualization of girls

Psychology offers several theories to explain how the sexualization of girls and women could influence girls’ well-being. Ample evidence testing these theories indicates that sexualization has negative effects in a variety of domains, including cognitive functioning, physical and mental health, sexuality and attitudes and beliefs.
Although most of these studies have been conducted on women in late adolescence (i.e., college age), findings are likely to generalize to younger adolescents and to girls, who may be even more strongly affected because their sense of self is still being formed.

Cognitive consequences

Cognitively, self-objectification has been repeatedly shown to detract from the ability to concentrate and focus one’s attention, thus leading to impaired performance on mental activities such as mathematical computations or logical reasoning (Frederickson, Roberts, Noll, Quinn & Twenge, 1998; Gapinski, Brownell & LaFrance, 2003; Hebl, King & Lin, 2004

Mental and physical health

Research links sexualization with three of the most common mental health problems of girls and women: eating disorders, low self-esteem and depression or depressed mood (Abramson & Valene, 1991; Durkin & Paxton, 2002; Harrison, 2000; Hofschire & Greenberg, 2001; Mills, Polivy, Herman & Tiggemann, 2002; Stice, Schupak-Neuberg, Shaw & Stein, 1994; Thomsen, Weber & Brown, 2002; Ward, 2004). Several studies (on both teenage and adult women) have found associations between exposure to narrow representations of female beauty (e.g., the “thin ideal”) and disordered eating attitudes and symptoms. Research also links exposure to sexualized female ideals with lower self-esteem, negative mood and depressive symptoms among adolescent girls and women. In addition to mental health consequences of sexualization, research suggests that girls’ and women’s physical health may also be negatively affected, albeit indirectly.

Sexuality

Sexual well-being is an important part of healthy development and overall well-being, yet evidence suggests that the sexualization of girls has negative consequences in terms of girls’ ability to develop healthy sexuality. Self-objectification has been linked directly with diminished sexual health among adolescent girls (e.g., as measured by decreased condom use and diminished sexual assertiveness; Impett, Schooler & Tolman, 2006). Frequent exposure to narrow ideals of attractiveness is associated with unrealistic and/or negative expectations concerning sexuality. Negative effects (e.g., shame) that emerge during adolescence may lead to sexual problems in adulthood (Brotto, Heiman & Tolman, in press).

From American Psychology Association
http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report.aspx


Originally posted by Paulclem

As for the apocalyptic state of the attack on the human spirit - I'm not convinced.


Really?

Perhaps, you will also say that it is a celebration of girls. This time in India. Shocking video about young girls being abducted or sold by parents or husbands and forced into prostitution.


Daughters of Darkness - Short Version


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYfElUsksS0


Or Child Prostitution in Indian Hindu Temples

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CiEfqrKoeg

[Paulclem]

I remember the Playboy logo appearing on young girls clothing a few years ago, and my wife explaining to my daughter what the company was all about. My daughter then made her young informed choice, and wouldn't touch the stuff. I think it's really important to give people the option to make those informed choices.

I put this earlier.

Well, you may try hard to derail from the most important fact of social engineering. It is not just about advertisers and consumers. There is growing sexualization and objectification of young girls.

I didn't say it was just about advertisers and consumers. I was merely responding to your video. Derail? In the quote above I was talking about my daughter and her not buying clothes with the Playboy logo. I'm not sure why you think this is at odds with what you are saying. I would consider foisting the playboy logo as an example of sexualization and objectification of young girls.

I stand by my statement about a generalised attack on the human spirit. There are many problems - more than the ones you are focused upon, but the OP comes over as generally negative about society. whereas i am of a more positive mind about it.

Perhaps, you will also say that it is a celebration of girls. This time in India. Shocking video about young girls being abducted or sold by parents or husbands and forced into prostitution.

What are you trying to say with this statement? My comment about advertising having a celebratory element refers to the collusion of women in an industry that has a negative effect upon women in general. For the advertising industry to be successful in terms of advertising to women, it has to have some acceptance by women. Perhaps if there were more co-ordination then such negative advertising practices could be reduced through consumer purchasing power.

So perhaps you'd like to explain your ridiculous statement now. Or are you going to post someone else's video or work to speak for you whilst you post inflammatory remarks in conclusion?

[ftil]

Originally posted by Paulclem
So perhaps you'd like to explain your ridiculous statement now. Or are you going to post someone else's video or work to speak for you whilst you post inflammatory remarks in conclusion?


First, the quote from American Psychological Association is quite clear. You may read a full article to understand……if you still have problems.

Second, I didn’t post any inflammatory remarks. Why do I have feelings that you are here with the intent to repeat what you have done on Mythology and Religion in Art thread ? If, so…..forget it….you were only successful there. :ciappa:

Enjoy LitNet…and find your bodies to talk. :devil:

[Paulclem]

[QUOTE=ftil;1204636]First, the quote from American Psychological Association is quite clear. You may read a full article to understand……if you still have problems.

Second, I didn’t post any inflammatory remarks. Why do I have feelings that you are here with the intent to repeat what you have done on Mythology and Religion in Art thread ? If, so…..forget it….you were only successful there. :ciappa:

Enjoy LitNet…and find your bodies to talk. :devil:[/QUOT

Oh I understand alright... " if you still have problems"... I don't think you can help yourself. Still the discussion- such as it was - is there for others to judge if they will. I would be pleased if you didn't rrespond to my posts in future.

[cafolini]

If you can’t see how bad it is………sweet dreams. But be sure that you will never wake up. :lol:
You would be mad like hell if you woke up on you deathbed.

I have been in my deathbed for a long time and fully awake to see how the human spirit has evolved and flourished in the past 60 years.

[ftil]

Originally posted by Paulclem
I would be pleased if you didn't rrespond to my posts in future.


You are not a careful observer. I have been avoiding you for a long time and I will continue to do so. :lol:

Forums are delightfully entertaining.

Going back to the topic and laughter. Not only advertisements sell messages but also logos are full of them.


NON-SUBTLE SEX IN ADVERTISING

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/06/27/non-subtle-sex-in-advertising/



Sexual logos

http://subliminalmanipulation.blogspot.ca/2010/10/phallic-symbols-are-very-prevalent-in.html




Originally posted by Cafolini

I have been in my deathbed for a long time and fully awake to see how the human spirit has evolved and flourished in the past 60 years.

So, you need to find somebody who is as awake as you are. :lol:.......I have something more interesting to read about Diogenes. Actually, a modern version of Diogenes that is written by a person who compares his teaching with c. Jung.

Poor Diogenes...... they called him a dog while he was alive but he has found followers today. :smilewinkgrin:

[E.A Rumfield]

There is no war on the human spirit. Comparatively speaking, it never flourished so well as it does today.

I don't buy it, I think people had more culture in the past more of a sense of identity. Just because it's more ok to be black, crippled or gay doesn't mean we are evolving. I think a lot of people and all people sub consciously feel suffocated as the world speeds up. Herman Melville said something to the effect of "Feed each man what is convenient to him if food be convenient. The food of the body is champagne and oysters the food of the soul is light and space." How many people now a days live in light and space. Have you ever seen those videos in Japanese subways? At rush hour people stuffed into the trains like sardines until not one more person can fit. How can the human soul thrive in conditions like that. It's like a war everyday. And like real war we are told it is noble. I think since shortly after the first world war people have been feeling there is no mystery left in the world. Nothing left to do nothing left to discover except at best fix the mistakes made in the past. I also feel the human being is becoming homogenized. Cultures are expendable to progress. If it doesn't help the GDP we don't need it. But in this way of thinking we lose music, dance, poetry, art and so on in places from New Orleans to Spain to Russia to Peru. It reminds me of a poem by Charles Bukowski Relentless as the Tarantula.

You know not too long ago people used to make things even common labors experienced the joys of creation. If you were a carpenter you took a set of tools and a piece of wood and with nothing more than your hands and your mind you created a bookshelf a beautiful bookshelf that would live long after you. If you made hats you would take whatever it is that you make hats with and make a hat. Since the assembly line how many people get that kind of satisfaction out of their work. To **** if you can even find a good mechanic. If you work on Wall St. what do you make? You make money? It's this kind of insanity that the world has been plunged into and the rumor that it is for the better.

How can we not be slipping in 50 years popular music has gone from Louis Armstrong to Katy Perry. We went from Alfred Hitchcock to Insidious 5. From Akira Kurosawa to Fast and the Furious There Is To Much Money Involved To Stop Making These Movies. From Charlie Chaplin to That's My Boy. The public has no idea of subtly any longer, we're just beaten over the head with everything. Beaten over the head with food, drugs, humor, visuals and excitement. Nothing is organic least of all the food. It certainly is a Brave New World, everyday I wake up the world feels more and more like a Huxley novel.

[ftil]

Diogenes deserves to be here. He may give us a clue if we evolving or not. BTW, Diogenes enchanted many painters and writers :lol:


Diogenes made a virtue of poverty. He begged for a living and slept in a large ceramic jar in the marketplace. He became notorious for his philosophical stunts such as carrying a lamp in the daytime, claiming to be looking for an honest man. He embarrassed Plato, disputed his interpretation of Socrates and sabotaged his lectures. He believed in total independence from the environment and self-sufficiency.

Diogenes demanded the abolition of marriage, the introduction of a community of women and children, and he called himself the first. Diogenes was also a preacher of cynical shamelessness, according to which what we all do, you can do in public. He tried to demonstrate that wisdom and happiness belong to the man who is independent of society and that civilization is regressive. He scorned not only family and political social organization, but also property rights and reputation. He even rejected normal ideas about human decency. Diogenes is said to have eaten in the marketplace, urinated on some people who insulted him, defecated in the theater, masturbated in public.
Source Wikipedia

In notes about Diogenes in Wikipedia I have found a website. I haven’t finished it yet but it is an interesting quote.



Insofar as Diogenes was known as the Dog throughout Athens, at a feast certain people kept throwing all the bones to him as they would to a dog. He, understanding that dogs in their simple humility and formidable logic are the pinnacle of evolution as we in our complex arrogance are not, played a dog's trick and urinated on them. It is said that Diogenes trampled upon Plato's carpets with the words "I trample upon the pride of Plato!" - who retorted, "Yes, Diogenes, with pride of another sort." Touché ?

This philosophical attitude is the essence of what Diogenes had to say, which may be summed up as: Neither seek nor want the approbation of any human being. It is the desire for approval and praise that enslaves us to the outrageous conventions which form 'the fabric of civilization' and make us completely unnatural and discontent animals. Most people will do almost anything to keep others off their backs. Freedom from the desire for approval is the only route to integrity, autonomy, and what Jung called individuation. Jesus of Galilee (like all other merely-religious teachers) did not get quite so far in his call to integrity.
http://www.beyond-the-pale.co.uk/diogenes.htm


It is an interesting example how new theory is created and how we are evolving. No writings of Diogenes survived; therefore, what we know about Diogenes is contained in anecdotes concerning his life and sayings attributed to him in a number of scattered classical sources. If he wanted to create his own theory about Diogenes, he should have read C. Jung’s work or the Scripture and not to use empty slogans from self help books and new age.


Interestingly enough, Plato in Republic shared similar idea about family and marriage. In fact, he proposed the community of wives and children that would be a part of a more ambitious program---the abolition of the self. It reminds me about new age spirituality and slogans such as “we are all one” So, no individual identity and without individuality there is no creativity, independent thoughts, passion, and love.


A few quotes from plato's Republic Book V


You are quite right, he replied, in maintaining the general inferiority of the female sex: although many women are in many things superior to many men, yet on the whole what you say is true.
The law, I said, which is the sequel of this and of all that has preceded, is to the following effect, --'that the wives of our guardians are to be common, and their children are to be common, and no parent is to know his own child, nor any child his parent.'

You, I said, who are their legislator, having selected the men, will now select the women and give them to them; --they must be as far as possible of like natures with them; and they must live in common houses and meet at common meals, None of them will have anything specially his or her own;they will be together, and will be brought up together, and will associate at gymnastic exercises. And so they will be drawn by a necessity of theirnatures to have intercourse with each other --necessity is not too strong a word, I think?

I said, the principle has been already laid down that the best of either sex should be united with the best as often, and the inferior with the inferior, as seldom as possible; and that they should rear the offspring of the one sort of union, but not of the other, if the flock is to be maintained in first-rate condition. Now these goings on must be a secret which the rulers only know, or there will be a further danger of our herd, as the guardians may be termed, breaking out into rebellion.

Had we not better appoint certain festivals at which we will bring together the brides and bridegrooms, and sacrifices will be offered and suitable hymeneal songs composed by our poets: the number of weddings is a matter which must be left to the discretion of the rulers, whose aim will be to preserve the average of population? There are many other things which they will have to consider, such as the effects of wars and diseases and any similar agencies, in order as far as this is possible to prevent the State from becoming either too large or too small.

But how will they know who are fathers and daughters, and so on?

They will never know. The way will be this: --dating from the day of the hymeneal, the bridegroom who was then married will call all the male children who are born in the seventh and tenth month afterwards his sons, and the female children his daughters, and they will call him father, and he will call their children his grandchildren, and they will call the elder generation grandfathers and grandmothers. All who were begotten at the time when their fathers and mothers came together will be called their brothers and sisters, and these, as I was saying, will be forbidden to inter-marry. This, however, is not to be understood as an absolute prohibition of the marriage of brothers and sisters; if the lot favors them, and they receive the sanction of the Pythian oracle, the law will allow them.



Neither Diogenes nor Plato consulted with women about their ideas…….Oh, Plato was clear, “a woman is inferior to a man.” Interestingly enough, feminists spoke about oppression of women. They focused on religions, particularly, on Judeo-Christianity but kept mouths shut about forced prostitution of young girls in Hindu temples. They didn’t mentioned Plato and Diogenes either. I am wonder why? :reddevil:

[OrphanPip]

I don't buy it, I think people had more culture in the past more of a sense of identity. Just because it's more ok to be black, crippled or gay doesn't mean we are evolving. I think a lot of people and all people sub consciously feel suffocated as the world speeds up. Herman Melville said something to the effect of "Feed each man what is convenient to him if food be convenient. The food of the body is champagne and oysters the food of the soul is light and space." How many people now a days live in light and space. Have you ever seen those videos in Japanese subways? At rush hour people stuffed into the trains like sardines until not one more person can fit. How can the human soul thrive in conditions like that. It's like a war everyday. And like real war we are told it is noble. I think since shortly after the first world war people have been feeling there is no mystery left in the world. Nothing left to do nothing left to discover except at best fix the mistakes made in the past. I also feel the human being is becoming homogenized. Cultures are expendable to progress. If it doesn't help the GDP we don't need it. But in this way of thinking we lose music, dance, poetry, art and so on in places from New Orleans to Spain to Russia to Peru. It reminds me of a poem by Charles Bukowski Relentless as the Tarantula.


Culture is more available today than it has ever been in the past. In Montreal alone there is a publicly funded symphony orchestra that performs affordable shows every week, sometimes they perform for free. There is an opera company that is relatively accessible. There is theater being produced weekly, I know of four plays in English currently in production with tickets under 20 dollars. None of these things were available for the majority of people 100 years ago.

I think your real problem is that you can't seem to get around the thought that some people don't want the things you want.

[prendrelemick]

Diogenes deserves to be here. He may give us a clue if we evolving or not. BTW, Diogenes enchanted many painters and writers :lol:


Source Wikipedia

In notes about Diogenes in Wikipedia I have found a website. I haven’t finished it yet but it is an interesting quote.





It is an interesting example how new theory is created and how we are evolving. No writings of Diogenes survived; therefore, what we know about Diogenes is contained in anecdotes concerning his life and sayings attributed to him in a number of scattered classical sources. If he wanted to create his own theory about Diogenes, he should have read C. Jung’s work or the Scripture and not to use empty slogans from self help books and new age.


Interestingly enough, Plato in Republic shared similar idea about family and marriage. In fact, he proposed the community of wives and children that would be a part of a more ambitious program---the abolition of the self. It reminds me about new age spirituality and slogans such as “we are all one” So, no individual identity and without individuality there is no creativity, independent thoughts, passion, and love.


A few quotes from plato's Republic Book V





Neither Diogenes nor Plato consulted with women about their ideas…….Oh, Plato was clear, “a woman is inferior to a man.” Interestingly enough, feminists spoke about oppression of women. They focused on religions, particularly, on Judeo-Christianity but kept mouths shut about forced prostitution of young girls in Hindu temples. They didn’t mentioned Plato and Diogenes either. I am wonder why? :reddevil:


Yes, but he lived in a pot.

[ftil]

Yes, but he lived in a pot.

He did. Are you saying that living in a pot affected his cognitive functioning? :brow:

[prendrelemick]

No, but are there any Philosophers who had to work for a living, like the man who made his pot?

[ftil]

No, but are there any Philosophers who had to work for a living, like the man who made his pot?

Where did you learn that he made his pot? What we know about him comes from anecdotes and saying attributed to him. Are you calling begging for food a hard work? :brow:

[Paulclem]

You know not too long ago people used to make things even common labors experienced the joys of creation. If you were a carpenter you took a set of tools and a piece of wood and with nothing more than your hands and your mind you created a bookshelf a beautiful bookshelf that would live long after you. If you made hats you would take whatever it is that you make hats with and make a hat. Since the assembly line how many people get that kind of satisfaction out of their work. To **** if you can even find a good mechanic. If you work on Wall St. what do you make? You make money? It's this kind of insanity that the world has been plunged into and the rumor that it is for the better.

How can we not be slipping in 50 years popular music has gone from Louis Armstrong to Katy Perry. We went from Alfred Hitchcock to Insidious 5. From Akira Kurosawa to Fast and the Furious There Is To Much Money Involved To Stop Making These Movies. From Charlie Chaplin to That's My Boy. The public has no idea of subtly any longer, we're just beaten over the head with everything. Beaten over the head with food, drugs, humor, visuals and excitement. Nothing is organic least of all the food. It certainly is a Brave New World, everyday I wake up the world feels more and more like a Huxley novel.

It's also true that people lived short lives of poverty and illiteracy compared to today. I think you are romaticising the past. There's nothing to stop you making real stuff - I think that's a good thing to do, but you have an option not available to people in the past. They would have worked at whatever was available, probably what their fathers and Mothers did, and don't forget that conditions for women were much worse than now, with poor rates of child and Mother survival compared to today. Also, no-one is asking you to work on Wall St, but I bet if you asked those Wall St people whether they would rather make money or chairs, I wonder what they would respond? It's also their choice - not yours.

You say the public has no taste, but things go in cycles, and lets see what gets made in the future. Popular culture is always an easy target for those critical of society, but who are you - we - to say what people should see, listen to or like? As ever it's just a generalisation. there are lots of things to be interested in these days, and we all have the capability to access whatever we want. As for food - you could grow your own - I do - or if you can't, then buy organic, or move somwhere more healthy.

Then again - what are you doing about it?

[OrphanPip]

The theaters in London during the Renaissance had to compete with bear baiting for audiences. In the eighteenth century Shakespeare was performed in drastically abridged forms, with French dancers and pantomime inbetween acts. The vacuous aspects of popular culture have always been there, it's not like that is new either.

[ftil]

Originally posted by E.A Rumfield

I think people had more culture in the past more of a sense of identity.

Absolutely! Today, with a big push of New Age spirituality and ‘transcendence of the ego’ or ‘getting rid of the ego”, it looks more like Plato’s Republic and abolition of the self. More than a decade ago, research were done according to which 2/3 of Americans didn’t the ability to think critically at all. Many psychologists were very alarmed by that research, speaking about the importance of changing educational system. Charlotte Iserbyt who served as Senior Adviser in the office of Educational Research and Improvement wrote The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America.

[Emil Miller]

Absolutely! Today, with a big push of New Age spirituality and ‘transcendence of the ego’ or ‘getting rid of the ego”, it looks more like Plato’s Republic and abolition of the self. More than a decade ago, research were done according to which 2/3 of Americans didn’t the ability to think critically at all. Many psychologists were very alarmed by that research, speaking about the importance of changing educational system. Charlotte Iserbyt who served as Senior Adviser in the office of Educational Research and Improvement wrote The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America.

I don't think that, on any objective assessment, the Dumbing down of America could be denied but the same applies equally to England. Why, apart from the rich profits to made from such an exercise, would it be deliberate?

[ftil]

I don't think that, on any objective assessment, the Dumbing down of America could be denied but the same applies equally to England. Why, apart from the rich profits to made from such an exercise, would it be deliberate?

I agree that it applies to other countries too but I don ‘t if similar research were done in Europe.

Why don’t you read her book to make up your mind? But you will need to look at 50’ when changes in educational system were introduced. Food for thought.

[stlukesguild]

I don't buy it, I think people had more culture in the past more of a sense of identity. Just because it's more ok to be black, crippled or gay doesn't mean we are evolving.

How cavalier of you. Affording basic human rights to minorities, the disabled, etc... all of this is of no concern to you... because it conflicts with your basic Chicken Little premise. I suppose the basic free universal public education (which certain Neo-Cons and corporations are working so hard to dismantle) which has existed only for the last 100 years or so... this is also irrelevant to your premise of the war on the human spirit. Much better when the masses were kept ignorant.

I think a lot of people and all people sub consciously feel suffocated as the world speeds up. Herman Melville said something to the effect of "Feed each man what is convenient to him if food be convenient. The food of the body is champagne and oysters the food of the soul is light and space." How many people now a days live in light and space. Have you ever seen those videos in Japanese subways? At rush hour people stuffed into the trains like sardines until not one more person can fit. How can the human soul thrive in conditions like that. It's like a war everyday. And like real war we are told it is noble.

So are you suggesting that there is something lacking in nobility about putting forth a day's labor... wherever that may be... as opposed to sitting on one's duff and living off other's tax dollars?

You know not too long ago people used to make things even common labors experienced the joys of creation. If you were a carpenter you took a set of tools and a piece of wood and with nothing more than your hands and your mind you created a bookshelf a beautiful bookshelf that would live long after you. If you made hats you would take whatever it is that you make hats with and make a hat. Since the assembly line how many people get that kind of satisfaction out of their work.

You're simply restating points made long ago by William Blake, William Morris and others. What is the solution? You cannot turn back time. I have the greatest respect for the hand-made product of the craftsman... but such products are labor and time intensive and ultimately very expensive. You are speaking of luxury items reserved for the very rich. How do we meet the needs of the masses under such an outdated production system?

How can we not be slipping in 50 years popular music has gone from Louis Armstrong to Katy Perry.

Do you really know anything about the history of music? Do you honestly believe that the music in the era of Armstrong was dominated by work of the quality of Armstrong and Ellington? Is Katy Perry truly representative of the whole of music today? Were the Monkees and Association all that the 1960s had to offer?

We went from Alfred Hitchcock to Insidious 5. From Akira Kurosawa to Fast and the Furious There Is To Much Money Involved To Stop Making These Movies. From Charlie Chaplin to That's My Boy. The public has no idea of subtly any longer...

Did they ever? How many Academy Awards did Hitchcock win? What was the initial critical response to Vertigo? How many Oscars did Kubrick win... beside the one afforded to 2001 for "Best Special effects"? The greatest works of art have rarely been the most popular works of the time. Do we go back to the era in which artistic merit was decided solely by those of wealth and power: the Aristocracy, the high-ranking Clergy, and the Wealthy?

[qimissung]

R e m i n d e r

Please refrain from posting in this section of the Forum

if you feel you are unable to show respect towards those who do not share your thoughts and beliefs.

Posts containing personal and/or inflammatory comments will be removed without further warning.

[ftil]

Originally posted by stlukesguild
I suppose the basic free universal public education (which certain Neo-Cons and corporations are working so hard to dismantle) which has existed only for the last 100 years or so... this is also irrelevant to your premise of the war on the human spirit. Much better when the masses were kept ignorant.

St. Luke, I haven’t seen you for a while. What has happened to art?

Anyway, thanks for good laughter about education…considering my posts about education in America. Truth may be painful.:wink5:

[stlukesguild]

Oh please, honey. Don't even begin to suppose that you know the least thing about public education in the US because you've read a text on the subject. I live the reality of Public Education in America every day... and it has absolutely nothing to do with the comic book by Charlotte Iserbyt. The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America was nothing more than a Neo-Conservative rant which claimed that the immediate goal of the American public education system was to eliminate the influences of a child's parents (religion, morals, national patriotism), and mold children into a members of the proletariat in preparation for a socialist-collectivist world of the future with the ultimate goal being "to so life in the United States that we can be comfortably merged with the Soviet Union." Iserbyt made the further claims that this ultra-Liberal agenda was the brainstorm of elite secret societies which included the heads of large corporations, the Illuminati, the Freemasons, The Order of Skull & Bones... and no doubt the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. While one might assume that no intelligent person could take Iserbyt seriously, her book was cited by Neo-Con politicians and religious figures in their arguments against Public Education in America.

[ftil]

Originally posted by stlukesguild

Oh please, honey. Don't even begin to suppose that you know the least thing about public education in the US because you've read a text on the subject.


Oh please, darling. I do and I shook my head with disbelief when I looked at the program. Private schools are better in terms of education but they are still far behind public school in Europe. I don’t even want to make a comparison with private school in Europe.

Well, you have missed the most important part in my post regarding research according to which 2/3 of Americans don’t have the ability to think critically at all. Many psychologists were alarmed by those findings, so was I. Therefore, I spent time to find when education system begun to change. Very interesting indeed.

Iserbyt is an addition and she looked at educational system from a different angle than psychologists.

[Volya]

I think that it is obvious that nowadays people have a much better chance to do pretty much anything, since education and public services are available to pretty much anyone in the (Western) world. This also means people can make up their own minds about things (such as religion, politics, anything really) if they really want to. But just because it's better now, is not to say that there isn't still a 'war on the human spirit'. Personally I don't think it has changed a huge amount, it is still the powerful trying to stay powerful, as it has been since life has began I would guess.

[cacian]

Oh please, honey. Don't even begin to suppose that you know the least thing about public education in the US because you've read a text on the subject. I live the reality of Public Education in America every day... and it has absolutely nothing to do with the comic book by Charlotte Iserbyt. The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America was nothing more than a Neo-Conservative rant which claimed that the immediate goal of the American public education system was to eliminate the influences of a child's parents (religion, morals, national patriotism), and mold children into a members of the proletariat in preparation for a socialist-collectivist world of the future with the ultimate goal being "to so life in the United States that we can be comfortably merged with the Soviet Union." Iserbyt made the further claims that this ultra-Liberal agenda was the brainstorm of elite secret societies which included the heads of large corporations, the Illuminati, the Freemasons, The Order of Skull & Bones... and no doubt the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. While one might assume that no intelligent person could take Iserbyt seriously, her book was cited by Neo-Con politicians and religious figures in their arguments against Public Education in America.

Why do I find the word NEO disturbing?!


I think that it is obvious that nowadays people have a much better chance to do pretty much anything, since education and public services are available to pretty much anyone in the (Western) world. This also means people can make up their own minds about things (such as religion, politics, anything really) if they really want to. But just because it's better now, is not to say that there isn't still a 'war on the human spirit'. Personally I don't think it has changed a huge amount, it is still the powerful trying to stay powerful, as it has been since life has began I would guess.

Power leads to disturbance and education to relocation. If education was the answer to all our problems I think we would owe it all to Charlemagne. I am glad it is not the case.
Let's go back to basics and learn to converse first.

[stlukesguild]

Oh please, darling. I do and I shook my head with disbelief when I looked at the program. Private schools are better in terms of education but they are still far behind public school in Europe. I don’t even want to make a comparison with private school in Europe.

Mark Twain put is best proclaiming that it was "lies, damned lies, and statistics" most commonly used to bolster weak arguments. The United States falls somewhere in the middle of the pack of nations with regard to results on standardized tests in math, science, and reading. One would expect better from the most wealthy nation on the planet, but the US struggles with a number of factors that effect and/or skew these statistics. In comparison to the US most European nations are the size of a single Western US state. The US must deal with providing free public education for students across a vast continent... and at a price. In contrast to the US, most European nations are largely dominated by a single monolithic culture. The US population includes 12% Blacks, 16% Hispanics, and nearly 5% Asians. There are also large populations of Eastern Europeans, Africans, and Middle-Eastern natives. All children living in the US are assured free Public Education... even those not able to speak English. Non-English-speaking students, cognitively handicapped students, and minority students living in poverty have a major impact upon statistics on standardized test scores.

Free Public Education has existed in the US in every state since around the mid-19 century... but predominantly only in large urban centers. In 1940 only 50% of the US populace had earned a high-school diploma. Native American, Hispanic, and Black students were either not afforded any Public Education or were segregated into substandard schools until the mid-1970s... in spite of the Supreme Court ruling of 1954 on Brown vs the Board of Education. Minority students, especially Black and Hispanic continue to perform well below the rest of the populace due in large part to the inequitable funding of schools based upon property taxes which penalizes the poor... but also due to the effects of poverty, which include malnutrition, unstable home lives, physical/psychological/sexual and substance abuse, etc... Disabled and Handicapped students were only guaranteed equal access to Public Education with the ruling of 1975.

Statistics for Middle-Class and Wealthy White students are not far beneath statistics for most European nations. The statistics for American private schools have recently been muddied as a result of the rapid growth of poorly run charter schools. These private run but publicly funded schools have flourished especially in Republican/Conservative-controlled states and are part of the effort to privatize public schools in the US. The efforts to privatize Public Schools have been spearheaded by various corporations and wealthy conservative individuals who see the schools at yet one more source of revenue, as well as by conservative and religious groups who are opposed to the teaching of what they deem as a "Liberal Agenda": ie Evolution, the separation of Church and State, the recognition of achievements of cultures beyond those of Western Europe, etc... Education from Pre-School through the Universities suffer as a result of an anti-Education mentality of certain Conservative extremists and the failure of the Federal Government to take the responsibility for establishing national standards, proper funding, and adequate financial aid for College/University students.

The better private schools in the US are every bit the equal to those in Europe or Asia, for that matter... with nearly 100% college acceptance rate. In spite of the failings of American Public Education at the Elementary and Secondary levels, the US rivals or surpasses almost any nation with regard to the quality of Post-Secondary Education. One need only look at the number of American colleges and universities ranked among the world's finest:

http://www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities-rankings/top-400-universities-in-the-world

If any nation outdoes itself on this list, it is surely the UK... that struggles with many of the same difficulties in Public Education as the US. The largest failing of the American Education system... at the grade school and college/university level is that of financial disparity


Well, you have missed the most important part in my post regarding research according to which 2/3 of Americans don’t have the ability to think critically at all. Many psychologists were alarmed by those findings, so was I. Therefore, I spent time to find when education system begun to change. Very interesting indeed.

Relying upon such data or statistics in measuring critical thinking itself suggests a failure in critical thinking. The US ranks 4th, in spite of a population of 314-million, in terms of percentage of the population with a Post-Secondary education. Somehow, I suspect most of these individuals needed to develop some degree of critical thinking. I also suspect that many without a college degree who own/operate a small business, work as carpenters, electricians, plumbers, auto mechanics have also developed some degree of critical thinking. It would seem that one would need to define just what qualifies as "critical thinking" by your statistics.

The percentage of Americans with higher degrees has fallen off in recent years... quite likely as a result of the increasing cost of tuition. It will be interesting to see just how much Europe and Asian can continue to fund Post-Secondary education under the current economic realities.







Iserbyt is an addition and she looked at educational system from a different angle than psychologists.

[ftil]

Originally posted by stlukesguild
Relying upon such data or statistics in measuring critical thinking itself suggests a failure in critical thinking.


Hey, but you relied upon usnewas .com! :lol: I prefer to relay upon research psychologists have done and further explore that subject.

Second, I have an advantage to study in Europe and in North America. I don’t blame you that you try hard to defend public system. But I am sure that you know what I am talking about. ;)

[Paulclem]

[COLOR="#B22222"]
Mark Twain put is best proclaiming that it was "lies, damned lies, and statistics" .

I agree with a lot of what you say about ed from the UK perspective. We have concentrations of immigrant children in our urban centres, and it does affect how we appear to do in our own measures. I've heard all the blah about this country is dumber etc etc How - as you rightly say - can meaningful generalisations be made about a country as big as the US. The UK has enough problems coping with a reasonable srategy with 60 million.

[ftil]

Originally posted by stlukesguild
The percentage of Americans with higher degrees has fallen off in recent years... quite likely as a result of the increasing cost of tuition. It will be interesting to see just how much Europe and Asian can continue to fund Post-Secondary education under the current economic realities.

I would like to add a few thoughts to my previous post. You focus on statistics. It is quite misleading. I focus on the program that has been taught at schools or Universities, not on the statistics. It is easy to make a comparison when we look at program at schools or University.

Second, it is not how many people have University degree but what education they get. If university students don’t have the ability to think critically......that’s quite serious. Therefore, psychologists spoke about the importance to change educational system.

[stlukesguild]

Considering the majority of your posts and your obsessions with conspiracy theories ranging from the Illuminati, Freemasons, various branches of the occult, the use of art in social engineering, etc... I think many might question the superior quality of education afforded by European colleges.

[ftil]

Considering the majority of your posts and your obsessions with conspiracy theories ranging from the Illuminati, Freemasons, various branches of the occult, the use of art in social engineering, etc... I think many might question the superior quality of education afforded by European colleges.

LOL! I must say that I have missed our conversation since your art thread has been closed. It sounds that you are out of ammunition. BTW, American psychologists have done research I have mentioned.


I have bad news for you…..I can’t stand conspiracy theories. :lol: Although, I spend time to get to know the idiocy pushed by conspiracy theorists as I never speak up before I take time to know the work. Z. Sitchin, for example, inspired me to do my research about Sumerian religion. But J. Campbell inspired me to study about Greek mythology, C. Jung led me to G. Bruno and renaissance occult. The list of my inspirations is long and art played an important role in it. For example, I wouldn’t be interested in looking at Diogenes if many painters and writers were not inspired by him. Perhaps, it would take me longer to clarify my negative feelings about Plato and feminists.


BTW, Bruno must be a hot topic ……and should stay untouchable. :reddevil: Luckily, there are scholars who don’t waste their time on forums but do their job and Oxford scholars did a great job about Bruno. But they are not alone as a new generation of scholars also considers Bruno’s work as the most insightful work of political manipulation.

Since, you have brought up masons......My gift for you. Belgian occult symbolism.

Jean Delville, School of Plato

http://jeandelville.org/Paintings/School%20of%20Plato/index.htm

[Scheherazade]

Definitely confused if it was the only massage you got form the video. :biggrin5:Oh, come on! Nobody picked on that???

I am a little disappointed now.

[ftil]

Oh, come on! Nobody picked on that???

I am a little disappointed now.

It would be depressing, if you didn’t! :lol:

But not everybody did....for one reason or another.

[ftil]

Considering the majority of your posts and your obsessions with conspiracy

I may start believing in conspiracy theories though….. :lol: I have noticed that you have had 10k + posts, but today, you have only half of them. That's not fair, as you worked so hard here.

Beyonce and Madonna definitely belong here. Somebody made a comment what kind of a spirit lives in those bodies. :yikes:

Beyonce

http://kienquanphotography.com/


Madonna

https://groups.diigo.com/group/qtxdtwcdpbblhjmcpuvv/content/madonna-performs-live-on-stage-6368517

[free]

I get the feeling more and more that we live in a society that teaches its people to hate themselves. From the church/religion telling you that your natural functions are some how an affront to God. I mean telling people that sex is wrong is like telling people that urination is wrong. The idea of beauty the media portrays is an unfair one and anyone with young daughters, women themselves or men that love women might agree with me. Think about all the women with eating disorders, I'd say about half the women I've know have unhealthy eating habits. Or the idea that arrogance and machismo is equal to manliness. Or maybe the most American idea of them all, the thought that money is equal to happiness and you should hate yourself for being poor. I think we've all might a person falling directly under one of these categories and to some degree we are all victims. Intellectual pursuits are degraded, and in general I feel the human spirit is being eroded. Not to speak on the apparent automation of the human being or appeasement as a technique for control but, ideas that are installed by respected organizations that lead to self-hatred. Some time ago someone told us as children the television, our religious leader even our government were to be respected and trusted and they have abused us ever since.

I totally agree with you. This world seems to me as if led and followed (not only in our time, but always, if we can trust the history we learn) by some sick sado-masochistic minds.

[Grit]

I think what we all sense is that there is a consumerist lifestyle force-fed down our throats everyday through group-think and the media machine. It's all about what you have, not who you are. We interpret the man with the BMW and the four-thousand dollar suit as a more valuable person when compared to someone who's homeless and can keep everything they own in a shopping cart. Is that accurate? Yes the rich man is more valuable in a dollar and cents sense but as a human being, he shouldn't be seen as any less valuable. Yet that's how he's seen.

Our world creates this need for instant gratification and happiness from things when happiness only comes from within. This sends a backwards message to our society. "Make a bunch of money and you can buy any happiness you desire." Notice that in advertisements, it's never actually about the product, but about the emotion that such a product can bring you. The advertisement tries to make us associate a certain emotion, not always positive it's actually often a negative one, with their product. When you think of a Happy Meal, McDonald's wants you to feel happy.

This is obviously bad from the perspective of everyone's happiness. These ads are more effective on children, that's not a guess, it's a fact. Children are like sponges that absorb everything they see and hear about our world, and ads have a strong programming effect on them. Adults are already fully-developed and have a barrier up against ideas that contradict their world blue-print. Ads aren't aimed at adults though, they are aimed at the young because you get a child programmed to associate a product of yours with a certain emotion, and you have a customer for life. Throughout that child's life, whenever they are searching out a way to get over a case of the blues, they'll seek out the product that promised happiness in their early years.

I think ads are more to blame than anything else for obesity in America. A plethora of fast food ads on children's networks insures that the people stay fat and so do the companies wallets.

I know what you're talking about Rumfield, there's a loss of identity today for men and women. Women are shown in the media think machine (TV, Ads, Movies, Music Videos) as sexual objects whose value is linked to physical attractiveness. That's not a real identity, but an attribute. Women who struggle to maintain the image the world portrays as the ultimate female are more likely to be unhappy, because they've been taught that's what they need to be loved, accepted and part of the whole.

For men, it's more about there being no identity at all. What is a man in today's world? I have no idea. The media portray's us as beer-guzzling, burger-gulping buffoons who like big trucks, and the sex object women we just talked about. Is that an identity? No, it's not, it's a lifestyle and a number of actions. Frankly, there's no identity developed today for the sensitive man.

I love this conversation, it's something that was brought to my attention years ago by Fight Club. A quote;


You are not your job, you're not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You are not your ****ing khakis. You are all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

I don't necessarily agree with the last line but the rest rings very true. As someone who is still developing a career, I've experienced devaluation of my being based on my lack of material riches.

This quote really sums up the bitterness of realizing the identity that the media portrays for men is false and not something every can or will achieve.


We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

Once you realize that the identity that's being fed to you is false, it's easy to become angry, depressed, or delve into drugs and alcohol. It doesn't help that most people chase the material riches with zeal.

A few more because I can't resist.


You buy furniture. You tell yourself, this is the last sofa I will ever need in my life. Buy the sofa, then for a couple years you're satisfied that no matter what goes wrong, at least you've got your sofa issue handled. Then the right set of dishes. Then the perfect bed. The drapes. The rug. Then you're trapped in your lovely nest, and the things you used to own, now they own you.


“Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes. working jobs we hate, so we can buy **** we dont need.”

It's just so close to the truth. So many people go out every day and work jobs they absolutely despise, that are completely unfufilling, because they make better money. Why do they want money? To build the best image that society offers; the most expensive clothes, the hundred-thousand dollar car e.t.c. What's sad is that it actually does make a difference in how you're perceived by society as a whole so they can hardly be blamed. It's just not a recipe for happiness. What is life about if not achieving some form of happiness?


http://youtu.be/n-l1SMiSPh4

This commercial really bothers me. It seems to send the message "If you have a better, faster phone, you can be an arrogant jerk to your friends because you have more value than them." Simplified as "buy our phone and you'll be better than other people." Notice the subtleties like there's two guys and one girl. Adds to the value equation. If you look at it from the friends point-of-view, there's fear condition. "Don't buy our better faster phone, and others will treat you like human garbage, sipping on a coffee and chatting to a girl while you humiliate yourself in public." Really a counterproductive message for harmonic living, isn't it?

Anyway interesting topic and one I love discussing. Thanks for bringing it up Rumfield.

[kasie]

Thank you, Grit - I think you have summarised the problem neatly and objectively.

Now - what's to be done about it?

Me? I'd ban advertising but that's not likely to happen I think. Paul and his missus have the right approach, I think, talking to and explaining the situation to their children but sadly not every parent will take the time or trouble to set the little minds thinking for themselves, or even more sadly seeing there is an issue to be addressed.