Should Rhyming Poets Be Castrated?

[WolfLarsen]

Should Rhyming Poets Be Castrated?
A fair & balanced essay by Wolf Larsen

Poetry that rhymes sounds like nails on blackboard, no?
Poetry that rhymes is the ultimate act of sadistic torture, and something needs to be done about it!
So what exactly should we do about poetry that rhymes?
And what should we do about people that say, "technically that's not an essay?"
And what should we do about politicians that promise to change things, and then don't change anything at all!
And what should we do about dogs that bark all night long and keep us awake?
Clearly, the answer is NOT castration. The answer is to EAT them! After all, dog is delicious!
So, instead of castrating poets that rhyme I advocate that we eat them.
You say that eating human flesh is abominable? But there is nothing more abominable than poetry that rhymes! Making a stew or a steak or a hamburger out of poets that rhyme is clearly the civilized thing to do! Between cannibalism and poetry that rhymes clearly cannibalism is the lesser evil.

[osho]

Rhyming poets are not doing anything unwanted. Rhyming is a great skill no doubt yet all I feel is no rhymes must come in the way when one comes up with beautiful thoughts and rhymes often become technological issues and the writer cannot comply with this standard.

[WolfLarsen]

Rhyming poets are not doing anything unwanted. Rhyming is a great skill no doubt yet all I feel is no rhymes must come in the way when one comes up with beautiful thoughts and rhymes often become technological issues and the writer cannot comply with this standard.

The only exception I would make regarding the rhyme in poetry is much of the great rap poetry that one finds in contemporary literature. One only need visit some African-American literary sites to see some excellent examples of rap poetry.

However, rhyming poetry written by white people sucks! It just sounds so stale! It's like they're kissing the asses of the "greats" of the past, instead of coming up with something dynamic & original. Maybe poets that rhyme lack creativity.

Rap poetry is at least original, even when it rhymes. Although I might prefer rap poetry that doesn't rhyme. It just depends. But at least rap poetry (when it is not commercialized) is often fresh and delicious – even when it rhymes.

My comment about white people and rhyming poetry will perhaps be misrepresented by some as racist. I'm not being racist. After all, I am white. In addition, I am not burdened by any "white guilt". My ancestors were drafted into the great Union Army during the Civil War, why would I feel guilt?

Rap poetry is great contemporary poetry – even when it rhymes. Otherwise, virtually all of the rhyming poetry I've come across is garbage. And if it's not garbage, it's certainly not helped by the rhyme. The rhyme hurts contemporary poetry.

[bIGwIRE]

Wolf, if your name is ever on a ballot for anything, you've at least got one vote!
What is even worse than rhyming poetry is rhyming translators. What are the chances of Pushkins poems rhyming in english? Pretty good, apparently...

As a side point, if a rhyming poet also happens to be a hippie, make sure you wash the....erm...meat.... real well. You may also want to keep a few extra bottles of Ketchup on hand.... just sayin...

[WolfLarsen]

Wolf, if your name is ever on a ballot for anything, you've at least got one vote!
What is even worse than rhyming poetry is rhyming translators. What are the chances of Pushkins poems rhyming in english? Pretty good, apparently...

As a side point, if a rhyming poet also happens to be a hippie, make sure you wash the....erm...meat.... real well. You may also want to keep a few extra bottles of Ketchup on hand.... Hust sayin...

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

[prendrelemick]

Poets who are too cool to rhyme taste a bit like chicken - only blander.

[hillwalker]

. . .and those misguided, aspiring poets who insist on rhyming regardless of their pieces making no sense at all are what? uncool?

If you need further proof of how rhyming is often a virus that turns poetry into inane mush, look no further than these pages. It's disheartening.

H

[Ecurb]

Those rap artists Wolf admires sometimes appear to be influenced by excessive testosterone production. I make no inferences from this as to whether castration would be appropriate.

[Scheherazade]

~

W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your comments.

Off-topic/inflammatory posts will be removed without further notice.

~

[YesNo]

I see nothing wrong with rhyme.

[AuntShecky]

. . .and those misguided, aspiring poets who insist on rhyming regardless of their pieces making no sense at all are what? uncool?

If you need further proof of how rhyming is often a virus that turns poetry into inane mush, look no further than these pages. It's disheartening.

H

I heart you, Hill, I really do, but as someone who works very hard at rhyme, I resent this.

[cacian]

I have to disagree fondly. I love rhyming because it free words from their meanings. It is the best experience I have ever had in language.
A word becomes meaningless and the at the same time allows the reader to imagine many different meaning to it. It is not about the sense of a word it is about the possibilities of many words in a word. I love rhyming poetry for that. It is just like music without words. A tune where one can get free/
loose with the sound rather then the scripts. I consider this very important for the intellect.
So I do not want the meaning I want to be able to imagine new meanings. You have got to love rhyming for that.
It is all about a sense of liberation rhyming poetry is. If you do not like it well.... that is it.:)

[Delta40]

I have to disagree fondly. I love rhyming because it free words from their meanings. It is the best experience I have ever had in language.
A word becomes meaningless and the at the same time allows the reader to imagine many different meaning to it. It is not about the sense of a word it is about the possibilities of many words in a word. I love rhyming poetry for that. It is just like music without words. A tune where one can get free/
loose with the sound rather then the scripts. I consider this very important for the intellect.
So I do not want the meaning I want to be able to imagine new meanings. You have got to love rhyming for that. If you do not want well that is it.:)

Huh?...am I trapped in the intellect thread??

[prendrelemick]

. . .and those misguided, aspiring poets who insist on rhyming regardless of their pieces making no sense at all are what? uncool?

If you need further proof of how rhyming is often a virus that turns poetry into inane mush, look no further than these pages. It's disheartening.

H

Surely that can be an intentional effect of rhyme, rather than misguided.


If you have an inane and tortured rhyme juxtaposed to the theme and rhythm, you have an interesting tension. You should watch out for that.

For example Sassoon's The General, is one of his most famous and effective poems because of his cute rhyme on top of its tragic theme.

[cacian]

Huh?...am I trapped in the intellect thread??

What?!! LOL

[prendrelemick]

I have to disagree fondly. I love rhyming because it free words from their meanings. It is the best experience I have ever had in language.
A word becomes meaningless and the at the same time allows the reader to imagine many different meaning to it. It is not about the sense of a word it is about the possibilities of many words in a word. I love rhyming poetry for that. It is just like music without words. A tune where one can get free/
loose with the sound rather then the scripts. I consider this very important for the intellect.
So I do not want the meaning I want to be able to imagine new meanings. You have got to love rhyming for that.
It is all about a sense of liberation rhyming poetry is. If you do not like it well.... that is it.:)


I must admit Cacian I usually haven't a clue what you are on about in your poems. But I always find them interesting.

[cacian]

Haha prendrelemick I thin it is meant to be misunderstood, not meant to be taken literally, but for all the good reasons. I thank you for your kind words.:)

[osho]

Rhyming often goes naturally, spontaneously, flowing in its natural course uninterruptedly beyond strenuous scholarly disciplines. Rap for instance is not a serious exercise and it flows from the bottom of the heart. When I mean rhyming is not wielding complex and intricate classical metering. I am talking about the way songs are written the way Bob Nylon or John Lennon did or the way nursery rhymes go

[hillwalker]

Rhyming often goes naturally, spontaneously, flowing in its natural course uninterruptedly beyond strenuous scholarly disciplines. Rap for instance is not a serious exercise and it flows from the bottom of the heart. When I mean rhyming is not wielding complex and intricate classical metering. I am talking about the way songs are written the way Bob Nylon or John Lennon did or the way nursery rhymes go

Bob Nylon? Or Bob Dylan?

I have no problem with anyone using rhyme as long as it complements the poem - Sassoon included (and Aunt Shecky for the record). I have even posted rhyming poetry on here myself.

But 90% of newbies posting their first attempts at poetry on here more often than not use rhyme to the detriment of reason. There are dozens of poems posted that appear to have been created by a rhyming dictionary rather than a human in possession of a functioning brain. Their efforts are about as far removed from 'spontaneous' as one can get.

It's the tail wagging the dog syndrome. Somewhere in their misguided desire to become serious poets they have assumed all poems have to rhyme - so if their dross rhymes it must be poetry.

H

PS - castration seems a little extreme. . . and what about the 'Sisters who Rhyme'??

[osho]

Bob Nylon? Or Bob Dylan?

I have no problem with anyone using rhyme as long as it complements the poem - Sassoon included (and Aunt Shecky for the record). I have even posted rhyming poetry on here myself.

But 90% of newbies posting their first attempts at poetry on here more often than not use rhyme to the detriment of reason. There are dozens of poems posted that appear to have been created by a rhyming dictionary rather than a human in possession of a functioning brain. Their efforts are about as far removed from 'spontaneous' as one can get.

It's the tail wagging the dog syndrome. Somewhere in their misguided desire to become serious poets they have assumed all poems have to rhyme - so if their dross rhymes it must be poetry.

H

PS - castration seems a little extreme. . . and what about the 'Sisters who Rhyme'??


It was Dylan. You told something unheard of - the dictionary doing rhyming jobs.. It is really shocking to hear that computers write poetry and rhyme them. Human brains are going inert, dull, non-functioning. Our world has come to a deserted hill of ashes and dry-bones and knuckles. I do not see hope. There is a hazy path and I do not know who and what guides our posterity or myself in the days. Computerized poetry! Castration is close to it and I have to qualify myself to know man-made poetry from machinated versions. How to discern it? I am confused. I have to think twice before writing critiques.

You are an eye opener H

[hillwalker]

Don't get too disheartened. I'm not suggesting the computer wrote the poem - only that the writer wrote his first line:

'The moon was shining in the sky' for instance - then he searches a rhyming dictionary for a word that rhymes with 'sky' and makes up the second line so that it fits.

Perhaps something along the lines of I poked my finger in my eye.'

How to discern it? It's easy - their poetry is stiff and emotionless, and usually painful to read. Also, it makes absolutely no sense most of the time.

H

[ralfyman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_rhyme

[hillwalker]

Thanks for that. I've actually heard of internal rhyme and use it quite frequently.

H

[JCamilo]

It was Dylan. You told something unheard of - the dictionary doing rhyming jobs.. It is really shocking to hear that computers write poetry and rhyme them. Human brains are going inert, dull, non-functioning. Our world has come to a deserted hill of ashes and dry-bones and knuckles. I do not see hope. There is a hazy path and I do not know who and what guides our posterity or myself in the days. Computerized poetry! Castration is close to it and I have to qualify myself to know man-made poetry from machinated versions. How to discern it? I am confused. I have to think twice before writing critiques.

You are an eye opener H

Eh, how so? Rhyming dictionaries are quite old, there is chinese rhyming dictionaries over 1000 years. I recall a description of a dialogue between Borges and Casares where they were translating MacBeath and consult to one. If Borges can use one ,why not anyone else? Of course, it has more how the person uses it than the fact they used it.

[WolfLarsen]

Eh, how so? Rhyming dictionaries are quite old, there is chinese rhyming dictionaries over 1000 years. I recall a description of a dialogue between Borges and Casares where they were translating MacBeath and consult to one. If Borges can use one ,why not anyone else? Of course, it has more how the person uses it than the fact they used it.

Todo bem Camillo?

Quiero a visa para morar la em Brasil! Carnivaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaal!!!!!!! Que sorte tem voce ser Brasileiro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Falar a verdade - queiro morar la em Brasil - mas a immigrcao e muito complicado!


Even Hillwalker is against rhyme in poetry! Yeah, the rhyme in poetry is long dead.

[PeterL]

Poetry was devised as a device to make it easier to remember than prose. There fore poetry has rhyme and meter, which prose lacks. It is my opnion that "poetry" that lacks rhyma and meter is simply poorly punctuated prose.

[JCamilo]

Nah, Poetry was devised to be a imitation of music, nothing to do with being easier to remember than prose. Homer was not even a rhyming poet, for example and several traditions didn't even had rhyming predominance.

Anyways, Wolf, Brazil is nice. All world is nice. Some people may dislike it, Argies for example. But then, they are on their own to like Argentina more (no idea why). So it is Rhyme - after all in Art, nothing is dead. Tomorrow, when you feel that nobody recalls the rhymes, then someone will have a new idea and rhyme to challenge the status quo.

[WolfLarsen]

Poetry was devised as a device to make it easier to remember than prose. There fore poetry has rhyme and meter, which prose lacks. It is my opnion that "poetry" that lacks rhyma and meter is simply poorly punctuated prose.

Nonsense! Poetry is whiskey, and prose is beer. Poetry is espresso, and prose is watered-down Americano. Poetry is a fistfight, prose is a tense discussion. Poetry is World War III, prose is a diplomatic crisis. Poetry is having sex 30 times a weekend, and prose is having sex 1.5 times a week like most Americans.

And rhyme all you want, but the rhyme makes poetry sound like a stale cliché.

And Camillo, I'm sorry but not all the world is nice. I have been to 50 countries. India is amazing, but not a pleasant place to live, I tried to live there. The best countries are Brazil, Greece (before the crisis), Italy, and the Netherlands, in my opinion.

And perhaps you are right Camillo. Perhaps the rhyme will come back someday. Many modern artists, for example, have been inspired by medieval art. But, the rhyme does not help contemporary poetry for now. It is too cliché. It must die before it is reborn. Actually, it is already dead. Many contemporary "poets" just don't realize it.

[PeterL]

Nonsense! Poetry is whiskey, and prose is beer. Poetry is espresso, and prose is watered-down Americano. Poetry is a fistfight, prose is a tense discussion. Poetry is World War III, prose is a diplomatic crisis. Poetry is having sex 30 times a weekend, and prose is having sex 1.5 times a week like most Americans.

And rhyme all you want, but the rhyme makes poetry sound like a stale cliché.





Think what you like, but the denial of facts won't get you anywhere.

[cacian]

Should Rhyming Poets Be Castrated?
A fair & balanced essay by Wolf Larsen

Poetry that rhymes sounds like nails on blackboard, no?
Poetry that rhymes is the ultimate act of sadistic torture, and something needs to be done about it!
So what exactly should we do about poetry that rhymes?
And what should we do about people that say, "technically that's not an essay?"
And what should we do about politicians that promise to change things, and then don't change anything at all!
And what should we do about dogs that bark all night long and keep us awake?
Clearly, the answer is NOT castration. The answer is to EAT them! After all, dog is delicious!
So, instead of castrating poets that rhyme I advocate that we eat them.
You say that eating human flesh is abominable? But there is nothing more abominable than poetry that rhymes! Making a stew or a steak or a hamburger out of poets that rhyme is clearly the civilized thing to do! Between cannibalism and poetry that rhymes clearly cannibalism is the lesser evil.
On second thoughts WolfLarsen I would much rather call it rythmic poetry. A peotry that has rythm.
As to your experiencing nails on blackbroard feelings it could only be as a reaction to something you are not used to. They do say any reaction is better then none. Maybe it is saying something about the state of our minds that it has been dormant for a very long time . A rough awakening is seriously better then a smooth one. Traumatic at first but solid in the long run.
I believe that to control a langauge is to control all. Rhythm freezes a meaning and launches new others. It is liberating to liberate the sense and meaning of language. It allows of creativity and movement.

[hillwalker]

Poetry was devised as a device to make it easier to remember than prose. There fore poetry has rhyme and meter, which prose lacks. It is my opnion that "poetry" that lacks rhyma and meter is simply poorly punctuated prose.

So you're suggesting that all free verse is nothing more than 'poorly punctuated prose', including classical works by the likes of Chaucer, Milton, Dryden, Rimbaud, Rossetti. . .

It must be quite embarrassing to have chosen such a deluded signature - 'The Great and Wise'. Really? (lol)

H

[WolfLarsen]

On second thoughts WolfLarsen I would much rather call it rythmic poetry. A peotry that has rythm.
As to your experiencing nails on blackbroard feelings it could only be as a reaction to something you are not used to. They do say any reaction is better then none. Maybe it is saying something about the state of our minds that it has been dormant for a very long time . A rough awakening is seriously better then a smooth one. Traumatic at first but solid in the long run.
I believe that to control a langauge is to control all. Rhythm freezes a meaning and launches new others. It is liberating to liberate the sense and meaning of language. It allows of creativity and movement.

You don't need to rhyme to have rhythm. In addition, I assure you I am all too used to the nails-on-blackboard experience of the rhyme in contemporary poetry. It is not an awakening. It is more like sado-masochism.

As for rhythm one can write a poem to the beat of Afro-Brazilian drums, or 20th century classical music, or the free jazz greats David S Ware or Rob Brown or Sabir Mateen – or you can write your poem to the beat of your neighbors doing the mattRess-syMphonY-bEd-spriNg-bOng.

The rhythm is up to you. You don't need a rhyme for rhythm.

[YesNo]

I assure you I am all too used to the nails-on-blackboard experience of the rhyme in contemporary poetry. It is not an awakening. It is more like sado-masochism.


Some people consider your own doo-doo poetry to be a nails-on-blackboard experience whether it rhymes or not.



Clearly, the answer is NOT castration. The answer is to EAT them! After all, dog is delicious!
So, instead of castrating poets that rhyme I advocate that we eat them.
You say that eating human flesh is abominable? But there is nothing more abominable than poetry that rhymes! Making a stew or a steak or a hamburger out of poets that rhyme is clearly the civilized thing to do! Between cannibalism and poetry that rhymes clearly cannibalism is the lesser evil.

Are you advocating physical violence against those who disagree with you?

[WolfLarsen]

Some people consider your own doo-doo poetry to be a nails-on-blackboard experience whether it rhymes or not.



Are you advocating physical violence against those who disagree with you?

I'm not advocating physical violence against anyone. As a matter of fact I'm inviting everyone over for dinner! We're going to have one delicious barbecue! Doo-doo poetry as an appetizer and guess what kind of meat is on the main menu? Mmmmm yum yum delicious!

Hey near Chicago where's your sense of humor?!

We're going to have a South Side of Chicago kind of barbecue! So come on down from the suburbs and join us on the South Side!

[YesNo]

I'm not advocating physical violence against anyone. As a matter of fact I'm inviting everyone over for dinner! We're going to have one delicious barbecue! Doo-doo poetry as an appetizer and guess what kind of meat is on the main menu? Mmmmm yum yum delicious!

Hey near Chicago where's your sense of humor?!

We're going to have a South Side of Chicago kind of barbecue! So come on down from the suburbs and join us on the South Side!

Although I like to think that I'm a potential vegetarian, I am definitely not a cannibal, so I'll have to pass on your barbecue invitation. But, hey, thanks anyway.

The pattern of verbal abuse disguised as a joke is listed in Wikipedia in case you want to look it up further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal_abuse

[YesNo]

Although I don't live in Chicago at the moment, Wolf, it occurred to me that many years ago I did live in Hyde Park. Since that was south of Roosevelt Road that would be in the South Side of Chicago.

This all reminds me of a Jim Croce song.

Before you click on the link--well, I don't know how to put this delicately--but the lyrics do rhyme. I know in your case, you're just putting meat on the table, but don't tell hillwalker.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuP65tdFUZc

[cacian]

to rhyme or not to rhyme that is the mime.:)

[prendrelemick]

I love the discordance of a really bad rhyme, skillfully used. It pricks the pomposity of the reader, pokes fun at the serious poet, and leaves you wondering if the writer is taking the piss. Like poetical Schoenberg

[Emil Miller]

I love the discordance of a really bad rhyme, skillfully used. It pricks the pomposity of the reader, pokes fun at the serious poet, and leaves you wondering if the writer is taking the piss. Like poetical Schoenberg

Then I would like to see the poetical equivalent to this:

http://youtu.be/BtV0dL2jEHw

[WolfLarsen]

Then I would like to see the poetical equivalent to this:

http://youtu.be/BtV0dL2jEHw

So the rhyme could be used to make discordant disturbing music & poetry – interesting idea!

I like the music on that link. Although I wish it was more – powerful & dramatic. If Beethoven were alive today maybe he would compose discordant stuff like that – but I bet it would be more powerful.

Yeah. Discordant poetry with the use of horrible rhymes on purpose. You might be onto something.

[prendrelemick]

I liked the music too, you had to actually listen to it.

[Paulclem]

Castrate rhyming poets? You're talking bollocks surely Wolf.

We'd never have had this by Philip Larkin:

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/178055

or this by the same,

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/178051

And might I add that these two are far more shocking than the poo wee sperm wank that you write Wolf, because they are really critical, and really say something about society then and now.

[islandclimber]

The problem - as others have mentioned - is that rhyme is all too often forced and misused. Rhyming poetry still has its place, when crafted carefully. One of the interesting aspects of rhyming poetry is the intellectual constraint it places upon the poet.

Wolf is certainly talking nonsense. Evidenced even more so by his exclusion of contemporary rap poetry from what he deems "terrible rhyming poetry." His statement: "rhyming poetry written by white people sucks!" might be one of his most absurd. Contemporary rap lyrics are for the better part, awful, regardless of rhyme. There are some talented rap lyricists/poets but to offer this up alongside a statement that white people suck at rhyme is so misguided. For poetry, one could list many examples by Leonard Cohen of great contemporary rhyming poetry. Or how about Bob Dylan's spoken word "Last Thoughts on Woody Guthrie"? Here it is, in all its rhyming glory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0OdNY8Aybw

If we are looking at poets from the musical side of things, how about the Canadian spoken word indie band The Fugitives? The song Shiny Plastic Bags is brilliant with its use of rhyme. Or Tom Waits. Or GA Johnson from Piano Magic? Jar of Echoes is pretty amazing. Lyrics are here along with the song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWXbi-huWD8

There are many contemporary poets who use rhyme quite effectively. I prefer free verse, almost exclusively, and am in general apprehensive about any new poetry with rhyme, yet this does not mean all contemporary rhyming poetry besides African American rap poetry is trash. What an absurd idea.

Robert Frost once said something like: "Writing free verse is a bit like playing tennis without a net." I don't agree with this, but to advocate the opposite is pretty silly Wolf.

[ralfyman]

Start with rhyming, and once you believe that you've mastered that, then try free verse.

[WolfLarsen]

Castrate rhyming poets? You're talking bollocks surely Wolf.

We'd never have had this by Philip Larkin:

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/178055

or this by the same,

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/178051

And might I add that these two are far more shocking than the poo wee sperm wank that you write Wolf, because they are really critical, and really say something about society then and now.

Not bad, but better (a thousand times better) is the Jewish poet David Lerner. Perhaps only the literary world could make a Jewish poet so sick to his stomach that he would entitle a poem about it “Mein Kampf” :

“Mein Kampf”
by David Lerner

all I want to do is
make poetry famous

all I want to do is
burn my initials into the sun

all I want do do is
read poetry from the middle of a
burning building
standing in the fast lane of the
freeway
falling from the top of the
Empire State Building

the literary world
sucks dead dog dick

I’d rather be Richard Speck
than Gary Snyder
I’d rather ride a rocketship to hell
than a Volvo to Bolinas

I’d rather
sell arms to the Martians
than wait sullenly for a
letter from some diseased clown with a
three-piece mind
telling me that I’ve won a
bullet-proof pair of rose-colored glasses
for my poem “Autumn in the Spring”

I want to be
hated
by everyone who teaches for a living

I want people to hear my poetry and
get headaches
I want people to hear my poetry and
vomit

I want people to hear my poetry and
weep, scream, disappear, start bleeding,
eat their television sets, beat each other to death with
swords and

go out and get riotously drunk on
someone else’s money



this ain’t no party
this ain’t no disco
this ain’t no foolin’ a

grab-bag of
clever wordplay and sensitive thoughts and
gracious theories about

how many ambiguities can dance on the head of a
machine gun

this ain’t no
genteel evening over
cappuccino and bull****

this ain’t no life-affirming
our days have meaning
as we watch the flowers breath through our souls and
fall desperately in love

this ain’t no letter-press, hand-me-down
wimpy beatnik festival of *****ing about
the broken rainbow

it is a carnival of dread

it is a savage sideshow
about to move to the main arena

it is terror and wild beauty
walking hand in hand down a bombed-out road
as missiles scream, while a
sky the color of arterial blood
blinks on and off
like the lights on Broadway
after the last junkie’s dead of AIDS

I come not to bury poetry
but to blow it up
not to dandle it on my knee
like a retarded child with
beautiful eyes
but

throw it off a cliff into
icy seas and
see if the the mother****er can swim for its life

because love is an excellent thing
surely we need it

but, my friends…

there is so much to hate These Days

that hatred is just love with a chip on its shoulder
a chip as big as the Ritz
and heavier than
all the bills I’ll never pay

because they’re after us

they’re selling radioactive charm bracelets
and breakfast cereals that
lower your IQ by 50 points per mouthful
we get politicians who think
starting World War III
would be a good career move
we got beautiful women
with eyes like wet stones
peering out at us from the pages of
glassy magazines promising that they’ll
**** us till we shoot blood

if we’ll just buy one of these beautiful switchblade knives

I’ve got mine

[YesNo]

Jar of Echoes is pretty amazing. Lyrics are here along with the song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWXbi-huWD8

If these lyrics were posted on this site I can image others telling the author that he or she should stop rhyming. It would be easy to remove the few end-rhymes in this song, but what would that accomplish? One would get nothing better than what one had before.

That's why the focus on rhyming is misplaced. Artists and critics should focus on the message and improve the sound quality of the writing rather than preaching ideology that bans some sound components.

What I like about Wolf's thread is that he caricatures, perhaps unintentionally, this anti-rhyming inanity.


Not bad, but better (a thousand times better) is the Jewish poet David Lerner.

Both Larkin and Lerner are self-righteously angry. There's nothing wrong with that, but if one wants to have a major impact one has to go beyond anger.

Lerner writes, as Wolf quoted:


I come not to bury poetry
but to blow it up

He didn't succeed in blowing up poetry, at least not with that piece. However, many artists do succeed. Here's an example of poetry being blown up. I like to think Adele Adkins wrote most of the lyrics but credit is also given to Dan Wilson.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwsaoLEvWbw

It looks like the Royal Albert Hall was packed. At about 2:50 into the video, Adele took the microphone and directed it at the audience. She asked them to sing the lyrics, and they did. Not only did they all know the lyrics, they loved them.

Now that's what I'm talking about.

[WyattGwyon]

So the rhyme could be used to make discordant disturbing music & poetry – interesting idea!

I like the music on that link. Although I wish it was more – powerful & dramatic. If Beethoven were alive today maybe he would compose discordant stuff like that – but I bet it would be more powerful.

Yeah. Discordant poetry with the use of horrible rhymes on purpose. You might be onto something.

I found it insipid and uninteresting.

Speculation on what Beethoven would compose today is silly. Do you mean someone of his genetic makeup raised by a completely different set of people in a different environment? Or do you mean Beethoven transported through a time machine and forced to make a living as a composer today? If the former I wouldn't assume he would become a composer. If the latter, he would find the posted piece incomprehensible or a bad joke.

The hand that signed the paper felled a city;
Five sovereign fingers taxed the breath,
Doubled the globe of dead and halved a country
These five kings did a king to death.

The mighty hand leads to a sloping shoulder,
The finger joints are cramped with chalk;
A goose's quill has put an end to murder
That put an end to talk.

Two stanzas from Dylan Thomas. Write something better and then complain about rhyming verse.

[Paulclem]

Not bad, but better (a thousand times better) is the Jewish poet David Lerner. Perhaps only the literary world could make a Jewish poet so sick to his stomach that he would entitle a poem about it “Mein Kampf” :

“Mein Kampf”
by David Lerner

all I want to do is
make poetry famous

all I want to do is
burn my initials into the sun

all I want do do is
read poetry from the middle of a
burning building
standing in the fast lane of the
freeway
falling from the top of the
Empire State Building

the literary world
sucks dead dog dick

I’d rather be Richard Speck
than Gary Snyder
I’d rather ride a rocketship to hell
than a Volvo to Bolinas

I’d rather
sell arms to the Martians
than wait sullenly for a
letter from some diseased clown with a
three-piece mind
telling me that I’ve won a
bullet-proof pair of rose-colored glasses
for my poem “Autumn in the Spring”

I want to be
hated
by everyone who teaches for a living

I want people to hear my poetry and
get headaches
I want people to hear my poetry and
vomit

I want people to hear my poetry and
weep, scream, disappear, start bleeding,
eat their television sets, beat each other to death with
swords and

go out and get riotously drunk on
someone else’s money



this ain’t no party
this ain’t no disco
this ain’t no foolin’ a

grab-bag of
clever wordplay and sensitive thoughts and
gracious theories about

how many ambiguities can dance on the head of a
machine gun

this ain’t no
genteel evening over
cappuccino and bull****

this ain’t no life-affirming
our days have meaning
as we watch the flowers breath through our souls and
fall desperately in love

this ain’t no letter-press, hand-me-down
wimpy beatnik festival of *****ing about
the broken rainbow

it is a carnival of dread

it is a savage sideshow
about to move to the main arena

it is terror and wild beauty
walking hand in hand down a bombed-out road
as missiles scream, while a
sky the color of arterial blood
blinks on and off
like the lights on Broadway
after the last junkie’s dead of AIDS

I come not to bury poetry
but to blow it up
not to dandle it on my knee
like a retarded child with
beautiful eyes
but

throw it off a cliff into
icy seas and
see if the the mother****er can swim for its life

because love is an excellent thing
surely we need it

but, my friends…

there is so much to hate These Days

that hatred is just love with a chip on its shoulder
a chip as big as the Ritz
and heavier than
all the bills I’ll never pay

because they’re after us

they’re selling radioactive charm bracelets
and breakfast cereals that
lower your IQ by 50 points per mouthful
we get politicians who think
starting World War III
would be a good career move
we got beautiful women
with eyes like wet stones
peering out at us from the pages of
glassy magazines promising that they’ll
**** us till we shoot blood

if we’ll just buy one of these beautiful switchblade knives

I’ve got mine

I like it - but a thousand times better? I don't think it's better, but then that's just my opinion.

The problem with this kind of poetry, as I see it, is it presumes on action from essentially a passive situation. I've just glanced at his bio - so he lived a bohemian life. What did he change but fail to give himself the chance to pursue belief/ non-belief through his writing and poetry. I'm not criticising someone for leading a bohemian lifestyle, or for taking drugs, but what does it achieve if your write all the rage and then kill yourself through selfish indulgence? It is preachy and apocalyptic whilst the poet himself is self indulgent and ultimately impotent. He could well have become great - it's a good poem of its type. At least Larkin had the courage to pursue his lifelong disillusionment towards a flowering of his poetry. Lerner talks of a kind of subversive courage,but the hyperbole is unachieveable. Larkin had a downbeat courage which he pursued to the end.

[cacian]

If these lyrics were posted on this site I can image others telling the author that he or she should stop rhyming. It would be easy to remove the few end-rhymes in this song, but what would that accomplish? One would get nothing better than what one had before.

That's why the focus on rhyming is misplaced. Artists and critics should focus on the message and improve the sound quality of the writing rather than preaching ideology that bans some sound components.

What I like about Wolf's thread is that he caricatures, perhaps unintentionally, this anti-rhyming inanity.



Both Larkin and Lerner are self-righteously angry. There's nothing wrong with that, but if one wants to have a major impact one has to go beyond anger.

Lerner writes, as Wolf quoted:


I come not to bury poetry
but to blow it up

He didn't succeed in blowing up poetry, at least not with that piece. However, many artists do succeed. Here's an example of poetry being blown up. I like to think Adele Adkins wrote most of the lyrics but credit is also given to Dan Wilson.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwsaoLEvWbw

It looks like the Royal Albert Hall was packed. At about 2:50 into the video, Adele took the microphone and directed it at the audience. She asked them to sing the lyrics, and they did. Not only did they all know the lyrics, they loved them.

Now that's what I'm talking about.

OK just one think. What happened to the shoes? How unclassy is that look?!

[hillwalker]

Trust a woman to focus on shoes (or the lack thereof) :lol:

H

[prendrelemick]

I found it insipid and uninteresting.

Speculation on what Beethoven would compose today is silly. Do you mean someone of his genetic makeup raised by a completely different set of people in a different environment? Or do you mean Beethoven transported through a time machine and forced to make a living as a composer today? If the former I wouldn't assume he would become a composer. If the latter, he would find the posted piece incomprehensible or a bad joke.

The hand that signed the paper felled a city;
Five sovereign fingers taxed the breath,
Doubled the globe of dead and halved a country
These five kings did a king to death.

The mighty hand leads to a sloping shoulder,
The finger joints are cramped with chalk;
A goose's quill has put an end to murder
That put an end to talk.

Two stanzas from Dylan Thomas. Write something better and then complain about rhyming verse.



Actually the piece that Emil posted reminded me a bit of Beethoven's last quartets. I think there was a nod in his direction in them.

[YesNo]

OK just one think. What happened to the shoes? How unclassy is that look?!

I missed her shoes.

I don't think she is high class. Her accent, when she is not singing, sounds lower-class, but I'm not sure not being from England. For all I know, that's how the Queen talks, but I doubt it.

She started the concert out, which is available on DVD, being amazed that she was actually in "Lord f*cking Albert Hall", which doesn't sound classy, but it was funny. She also clarified at the concert that her ex-boyfriend, who was an inspiration for this song, was not totally to blame by explaining, "He's an ahsshole and I'm a b*tch." I'll take her at her word.

My daughters like Adele. I've enjoyed this song and Rolling in the Deep. I wanted to pick someone who was young, female, who wrote her own rhyming lyrics that had gone beyond any initial anger and who was currently popular as an example. This would contrast with the Dylan, Cohen, Larkin and Lerner examples that were already presented.

I am not opposed to poetry that does not rhyme nor do I like all rhyming poetry. The Larkin poem about his parents and grandparents messing him up doesn't appeal to me because of the content even though it does rhyme. I do think language, whether poetry or prose, is basically sound and meaning. Too much of the 20th century disparaged the sound component of language as well as its meaning. Thankfully, we are now in the 21st century.

[hillwalker]

I don't think she is high class. Her accent, when she is not singing, sounds lower-class, but I'm not sure not being from England. For all I know, that's how the Queen talks, but I doubt it.

The class system in England died out about 100 years ago. No one outside the Royal family and the landed gentry speaks like the Queen, thank goodness (monotonously robotic).

H

[Paulclem]

I missed her shoes.

The Larkin poem about his parents and grandparents messing him up doesn't appeal to me because of the content even though it does rhyme. I do think language, whether poetry or prose, is basically sound and meaning. Too much of the 20th century disparaged the sound component of language as well as its meaning. Thankfully, we are now in the 21st century.

The rhyme is just the form, but the poem is shocking for the fact that Larkin seems so anti his own family. There is a kind of truth that he's getting at there. The undoubted influence of parents upon their children is what he's on about, and there are plenty of examples of people being messed up by their parents. When I first read it, I didn't like it because of the shock and content. This is despite the poem being very true of my own parents, both in the effect their parents had on them, and the effect they had on my own siblings.

I've no doubt that it has relevance for a lot of people, though it is a shocking poem - and much more shocking than the stream of consciousness expletives used by Wolf.

[YesNo]

Larkin is more shocking that Wolf.

The anger in Larkin's poem did not seem resolved to me. That's the main reason I didn't like it. Perhaps the anger shouldn't be resolved. Larkin is right that parents mess up their children. They also give them at least one blessing which is the chance to live and do things differently. Maybe the poem is fine the way it is. I can see why people like it.

I do find Adele's accent attractive. Of course, it could be just those long eyelashes.

[Scheherazade]

This reminds me that we should revive the "Poem of the Week" discussions again.

[Drkshadow03]

Then I would like to see the poetical equivalent to this:

http://youtu.be/BtV0dL2jEHw

I was inspired:

Loud Echo . . . Loud Echo
Screeching through the soul;
Eech, eech, eech, O, leech,
who slurps life’s faint swells.
Listen to the blasted wastes,
the belching concrete abysses,
the arguments of everyday,
the quotidian expenses.

All the girls whistle low,
puking on Michelangelo.

Knock, Knock,
woodpecker’s incessant call
inflames these migrained senses
where nuclear war bursts
against sanity’s weak defenses.
Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!
Oh, that cacophonous breath
like rancid meat left five days
in hell’s spectacle of shames.

All the girls whistle low,
puking on Michelangelo.

Gobble, Gobble, Munch, Munch!
They chew and spit my flesh,
each of these pretty snowflakes
drifting lost in the dreariness of death.

[Paulclem]

I've written free style verse, but i consider that being able to write a sonnet that conforms to the form, has rhyme that adds to the sense of the poem, develops an interesting/ significant argument, and is stimulating to read - or in other words is worth reading - would be something for me to aspire to.

As for castration - you'll have to sew them back on first.

( Thanks to Basil Fawlty for that one).

[WyattGwyon]

Actually the piece that Emil posted reminded me a bit of Beethoven's last quartets. I think there was a nod in his direction in them.

Well it was slightly more similar to Beethoven's late quartets than it was to the sound of an exhaust fan or a flushing toilet. Does that constitute a nod?

[Eiseabhal]

Perhaps the Wolf is just cryptically saying blank poetry is really good especially when it is blank. Rap hum hum "beo is cunnertach"

[YesNo]

All the girls whistle low,
puking on Michelangelo.


Ah! That should do it. And it almost rhymes.

[islandclimber]

I volunteer for castration. I rarely rhyme in my own poetry, yet... SOLIDARITY?!?!?

[Delta40]

Hand me the scalpel....

[islandclimber]

*Hands scalpel over with a nervous shiver, thinks about running yet remains, stoic even unto the death of this genetic line

Just be gentle? Can castration be gentle?

[Paulclem]

*Hands scalpel over with a nervous shiver, thinks about running yet remains, stoic even unto the death of this genetic line

Just be gentle? Can castration be gentle?

It depends where they stick the result.

[osho]

I have no objection with rhyming and in fact i still enjoy the rhyme when i studied as a child during my nursery days and i feel nostalgic about the days when i had to rot beautifully versified, metered rhymes and today in my adulthood i am told to believe rhyme is unimportant. Yet i do not want to agree that rhymes to be totally given a zero score. There are competent writers who has the dexterity to write beautiful rhymes at no expense of theme and the philosophy.

[Jassy Melson]

Yes, and so should poets who write in free verse.

[Jackson Richardson]

Because in English rhyme draws attention to itself more than I assume it does in French or Italian (nobody accused Racine or Dante of writing pantomime verse) it tends to be rather comical in effect. And there is some wonderful comic verse depending on the use of rhyme:

He thus became immensely rich
And built a splendid mansion which
Is called The Cedars, Muswell Hill
Where he resides in affluence still
To show what everybody might
Become by simply doing right. (Hilaire Belloc)

The clunky rhymes on the weak words (which, still, might) highlight the utter smugness of the sentiments which are being sent up. Brilliant.

[Delta40]

*Hands scalpel over with a nervous shiver, thinks about running yet remains, stoic even unto the death of this genetic line

Just be gentle? Can castration be gentle?

of course it can!

Snaps on latex gloves, a spot of gel and a surgical mask.

'Ankles together Mr Islandclimber. That's good. Now just let your knees slowly fall away. What's that? You need to calm your nerves? Nurse just lodge a spoon firmly between his teeth will you we seem to have run out of whiskey.....'

[Paulclem]

Or.. sit on the high chair with the hole in the middle...

[YesNo]

I piss off people when I write
And let my drivel show.
I like to tick 'em off and might
Decide to drop some more tonight
And cover them in rhymes to 'white'
Like streets in cozy snow.

[Delta40]

I piss off people when I write
And let my drivel show.
I like to tick 'em off and might
Decide to drop some more tonight
And cover them in rhymes to 'white'
Like streets in cozy snow.

Double scalpel, no whiskey

[qimissung]

of course it can!

Snaps on latex gloves, a spot of gel and a surgical mask.

'Ankles together Mr Islandclimber. That's good. Now just let your knees slowly fall away. What's that? You need to calm your nerves? Nurse just lodge a spoon firmly between his teeth will you we seem to have run out of whiskey.....'

:lol::lol::lol:

Well, I can't rhyme, but I have enjoyed much poetry in the past that does, like this:




O CAPTAIN! my Captain! our fearful trip is done;
The ship has weather'd every rack, the prize we sought is won;
The port is near, the bells I hear, the people all exulting,
While follow eyes the steady keel, the vessel grim and daring:
But O heart! heart! heart!
O the bleeding drops of red,
Where on the deck my Captain lies,
Fallen cold and dead.

[Hawg Horse]

All things are beautiful in their time. Like rhyme :) Hear-tell the accordian's makin' a comback in newly released pop. Just last year ... who knew? May be the sympathy factor, following the mass castration of accordian men over the last several years.

[cacian]

Yes, and so should poets who write in free verse.

Any reasons why you think so?
How is one supposed to write if everything else is telling not to?
How does one cross? oh I know there is a zebra crossing, poor zebra, it is more flabs of paint thrown across for shine effect.
Does the mind really think that painting strips white, that reminds prison suits, one is safe from crossing?
who is the genuis behind the white strips? What a donk!
Who is anyone to tell anybody how other should write? what right have they got?

[cacian]

I piss off people when I write
And let my drivel show.
I like to tick 'em off and might
Decide to drop some more tonight
And cover them in rhymes to 'white'
Like streets in cozy snow.

Haha this tickled me here is my take I wish it dubbious read.

i write to avoid
and those who do
annoy
let them shine the troy
he'll come off horse's
clops
and begins to sprout
toss
will see if he will
poss
the land of
literature lords

and then this :

he did not reach the dine
he'd realised the fine
he'd bought a watch
and can
never tell the time.

[Melanie]

Freedom is a beautiful thing. I write both in rhyme and non-rhyme and make no apologies. I embrace my freedom to do whatever I feel like doing whenever I want. I read both, appreciate both, enjoy both. Sure, there are times when abuse of rhyming leads to groaning but there is equally abuse in non-rhyming that leads to groaning.

I'm new at writing poetry and recently tried my hand at writing a ballad in iambic pentameter with rhyming. I now have a new appreciation for how difficult it is to do this without it sounding sing-songy, trite, forced, archaic, childish, sappy....there's an art to it and it's not easy, but history has shown it can be mastered. I'm a novice. I hope I never become so advanced as to set parameters for other's creativity. That's when I'll stop learning.

^ YesNo...bravo!