Richard III

[prendrelemick]

We will finally find out today if they've dug him up from a car park in Leicester.

Background:

Richard was killed in battle at the end of the Wars of the Roses, but the eventual resting place of his body was unknown - or forgotten.
Archeologists have been studying old maps and reading accounts of the battle of Bosworth field for years, and finally decended on a car park in Leicester. To everyone's amazement they found a 500 year old skeleton with battle injuries and a crooked back. It's DNA has been compared with that of a Canadian decendent of Richard's sister. The results will be revealed at 10 am GMT today.

Richard is one of the charismatic Kings of England, (thanks mainly to Shakespeare) he was of the age when Kings had to lead from the front and risk all on the battlefield.

[cacian]

It is ironic it is in a car park and not in a castle. I thought kings and castles went hand in hand but there you go a car park of all places.
I find it rather intriguing/strange the body of an important king lays burired in an unknown place. What were they thinking of?

[prendrelemick]

They had a fair idea he was there. The car park is on the site of Greyfriars abbey. Henry VII and subsequent Tudor Kings would not've wanted Richard commemorated or remembered in any way because they were sensetive to the charge that they were usurpers. But for Shakespeare he would probably have been a minor figure, he was only King for 2 years, but he was depicted in a strong characature of a wicked murderer and was famous for infamy.



Edit: Well well, for once no big let down. They are "beyond reasonable doubt"Richard's remains.

The story of the discovery is on Channel 4 tonight at 9.00pm.

[cacian]

Great stuff prendrelemick. I think the last time I watched a programm about a king of England is when they decided that the real king of England as oppose to Queen Elizabeth today lives in Australia in the outbacks. Today they think there is one buried in a car park. A sad thing of event to think Royalty had to end up in this state. Anyway prendrelemick did you see that programm I am talking by Tony Robinson he is in Time Team as well?

[prendrelemick]

I did see that, but I reckon the Crown belongs to whoever grabs it and holds on to it.

In fact Henry VII had no Royal claim to the throne at all, he was the grandson of Owen Tudor and Katherine - Henry V's widow. And their marriage, if it took place at all was secret.

However, read the History books, he was King of England for 24 years. (Marrying Elizabeth of York helped.)




UPDATE Head of Leicester University says "I love it when a Plan tagenet comes together"

[Lokasenna]

Now that we've got the body, I want to know what we're going to do with it. I'll bet there will be some people demanding a state funeral for him.

[Calidore]

My favorite comments so far are the person who observed that since the battle was nearby, Richard would logically have parked there; and the person who totaled the fees and announced that he owed a bit over 3.5 million pounds for the time he's lain there.

[Paulclem]

Now that we've got the body, I want to know what we're going to do with it. I'll bet there will be some people demanding a state funeral for him.

I bet there will. He's going to be interred in Leicester Cathedral.

There's a documentary on Channel 4 tonight as Mick said. It should be good.

[Emil Miller]

If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a council car park. That is for ever England.

[kev67]

I bet there will. He's going to be interred in Leicester Cathedral.

There's a documentary on Channel 4 tonight as Mick said. It should be good.

Fair enough, they can't really stick him back under the car park. You can't really put a King of England's bones in a showcase in a museum. However, he was a bad man, so you can't put him in Westminster Abbey neither.

When are they going to do the DNA tests on the princes?

[Paulclem]

Yes - the science and history was interesting. There seemed to be a good marry up of the evidence and the accounts from the time. The woman from the Richard III society was a pain though.

[Paulclem]

Fair enough, they can't really stick him back under the car park. You can't really put a King of England's bones in a showcase in a museum. However, he was a bad man, so you can't put him in Westminster Abbey neither.

When are they going to do the DNA tests on the princes?

They were all bad weren't they. It was Kingship and legitimacy by force. Richard probably had the Princes killed. Henry Tudor had no claim to the crown but took it anyway. His gang was bigger than Richard's.

[kev67]

They were all bad weren't they. It was Kingship and legitimacy by force. Richard probably had the Princes killed. Henry Tudor had no claim to the crown but took it anyway. His gang was bigger than Richard's.

I am not sure they were all bad. A lot of them were bad. I remember reading some tourist thing in Guildford about how a woman had sued a King for extracting too much water from a river. The judge found in her favour. I thought the King, whoever he was, could not have been that bad if he was prepared to accept a legal ruling against him.

[prendrelemick]

York Minster are claiming they should have the body, and I expect Gloucester and Westminster would like him too. Perhaps they should follow tradition and send bits of him throughout the kingdom encased in golden reliquaries for the tourists to pay homage to and swell the church coffers.

[billl]

Please keep the updates and commentary coming. I mean, I don't have illusions of this dragging on for 20 consecutive days of new flashes, but reading you guys's reactions conveys more cultural nuance than the AP News reports, which I'm pretty sure are done with this story after just one day.

A king's body! What to do!

[Lokasenna]

The radio this morning was already talking about hunting for the body of the next 'lost' king - Alfred the Great. Expect vast swathes of Winchester to be dug up soon.

[prendrelemick]

There are so many legends about Alfred they could do worse than to start looking in the Multi-story car park


(sorry)

[Lokasenna]

There are so many legends about Alfred they could do worse than to start looking in the Multi-story car park


(sorry)

***groans***

[togre]

I got riled up by the lead-in to the story on one of the US networks. Made it sound like some ground breaking discovery that will radically alter our understanding of important historical events. It's nothing of the sort. It's interesting and important, but it really is relatively unsurprising (his body was found near where he was buried!?!) and confirms the historical accounts we have. But leave it to the TV news to make it sound all salacious and to pander to the desire to hear that "everything you were taught was wrong." /rant

[prendrelemick]

Archeology has a long and proud history of finding things where they are known to be. I mean there was a large "R" painted on the tarmac where Richard was - how many clues do you need?

[kasie]

The radio this morning was already talking about hunting for the body of the next 'lost' king - Alfred the Great. Expect vast swathes of Winchester to be dug up soon.

Oh dear,it's hard enough as it is to find a parking space in Winchester......

[Lokasenna]

Oh dear,it's hard enough as it is to find a parking space in Winchester......

My back garden needs digging up... I'm thinking of telling the university that I suspect bits of Oswald of Northumbria might be under it... or possibly under my horrible neighbour's house...

[kev67]

I hear there is some discussion where he should be buried. Leicester Cathedral might want him because that's where he died and was buried. York Minster might want him because he is from York. However, he was a Catholic so he should probably be buried in a Catholic place of worship, although other Kings and Queens from before the break with Rome are still buried in Westminster Abbey, which is now Church of England. The monarch was head of the Church of England, officially at least, and that's the state religion. However, the England's break with the Catholic church happened under Henry VIII, his enemy's son. The Church of England was established by his enemy's grand-daughter, Queen Elizabeth. It seems unlikely Richard III would want to be buried by the church established by his enemies rather than his own religion.

[prendrelemick]

In his will he left a lot of money to York Minster to have prayers said for his soul there, (common practice at that time) but he didn't stipulate where he wanted to be buried. However If you are given a licence to exhume a body you are obliged by the terms of that licence to rebury it in the nearest consecrated ground - as the Leicester Cathederal faction have been pointing out repeatedly.

[LitNetIsGreat]

The woman from the Richard III society was a pain though.

Yes they should have left her in the car park, silly woman. I lost count how many times she started crying and over nothing. She'd clearly built up her own mental image of what Richard meant to her (?) and when the body didn't meet those expectations or the face reconstruction, she well, started crying again.

It is however a massive find and one which should really have had an bigger media response.

[Emil Miller]

I heard on the radio this evening, that linguistic experts have decided that Richard would have spoken with a 'Brummie' accent.
Shakespeare will never be the same.

http://youtu.be/7sueCfdwefQ

[prendrelemick]

Oi yow, whurr's me orse ?

[qimissung]

I heard on the radio this evening, that linguistic experts have decided that Richard would have spoken with a 'Brummie' accent.
Shakespeare will never be the same.

http://youtu.be/7sueCfdwefQ

Would there have been such a thing as a 'Brummie' accent when he was alive, I wonder?

As to his notoriety, I think also of Tutankhamen, who also ruled for only a short time, but is wildly famous today because they found his tomb.

It has been fascinating reading ya'll's comments. Keep 'em coming. :)

[prendrelemick]

It seems Leicester has stolen a march on it's rivals. The Council has already bought a school building next to the car park for £850,000 and plans are well in advance for a "museum" (visitor centre really) and while that is being set up, a temporary exhibition is nearly ready now. If York want the remains I think they'll have to invade and take them by force.

[Lokasenna]

If York want the remains I think they'll have to invade and take them by force.

They would be terribly pleased - it would be just like old times!

[Zaza]

The woman from the Richard III Society was an emotional wreck because female Ricardians are all basically in love with Richard III.

[Paulclem]

The woman from the Richard III Society was an emotional wreck because female Ricardians are all basically in love with Richard III.

Weird.

Whether she was or not, she ruined the programme. Blubberer.

[Sancho]

Yeah, weird. From what I've read, Richard was a bit of a dick, particularly to his nephews.

My knowledge of Alfred is worse: burned some cakes - ran out the Vikings.

Pretty cool dig anyway. All I've ever found was a couple of arrowheads and a piece of PVC pipe.

[Calidore]

Pretty cool dig anyway. All I've ever found was a couple of arrowheads and a piece of PVC pipe.

That is cool. Which tribe originally lived in that area, and what did they use PVC pipe for?

[Sancho]

Mostly Creek in my area, Cherokee to the north, and Seminole to the south. The pipe, I think, came from a later time: the Lynyrdis Skynyrain period, Billy-Bob Tribe I'm pretty sure. It appeared to be associated with some sort of outdoor pumping apparatus.

[Paulclem]

Yeah, weird. From what I've read, Richard was a bit of a dick, particularly to his nephews.

My knowledge of Alfred is worse: burned some cakes - ran out the Vikings.

Pretty cool dig anyway. All I've ever found was a couple of arrowheads and a piece of PVC pipe.

Yes - the whole Tudor propaganda thing has needed a serious revision with the discovery of his twisted spine. There is absolutely no doubt that he did suffer from propaganda, but the likelihood is that he had the Princes killed. He gained the most from it, and had the power and influence to do it.

Their name - the Rickardians - is really pompous too. I sense that there has been a lot of intellectual snobbery in the past. Perhaps that's why she was weeping so much - loss of credibility. I snorted with derision a number of times during the prog. (I can't repeat what I shouted at the telly. I was reassured when I found out my wife had been watching and shouted similar things too). It was when she said - "does this look like the face of a monster?" that I knew hey were scrabbling at straws.

I think it's really funny that those medieval institutions - the cathedrals - are now fighting over his remains for purely financial reasons. The wishes of the bloke are neither here nor there in this tug of war.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yes well they obviously know they are going to pull the punters in on this one.

Yes the woman really winded me up too as I said earlier. What she and others should concern themselves with is fitting the facts together from the evidence, no matter what, not hoping the evidence reveals some strange personal fantasy, completely unprofessional - not that she's professional but you see what I mean.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Fascinating stuff indeed, I've been following along.
Coincidentally, Google's homepage banner for Feb 6th, as it appears here in the Republic, commenorates Mary Leaky's birthday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Leakey

I like Prendrelimick's reliquary idea, bits and pieces scattered hither and yon.

[billl]

I want to see this blubbering woman, could somebody provide her name or the name of the program so I can do a search (or directly point me to a youtube clip)?

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

I want to see this blubbering woman, could somebody provide her name or the name of the program so I can do a search (or directly point me to a youtube clip)?

Same request.
Thanks.

[Sancho]

Yes - the whole Tudor propaganda thing has needed a serious revision with the discovery of his twisted spine. There is absolutely no doubt that he did suffer from propaganda, but the likelihood is that he had the Princes killed. He gained the most from it, and had the power and influence to do it.

Their name - the Rickardians - is really pompous too. I sense that there has been a lot of intellectual snobbery in the past. Perhaps that's why she was weeping so much - loss of credibility. I snorted with derision a number of times during the prog. (I can't repeat what I shouted at the telly. I was reassured when I found out my wife had been watching and shouted similar things too). It was when she said - "does this look like the face of a monster?" that I knew hey were scrabbling at straws.

I think it's really funny that those medieval institutions - the cathedrals - are now fighting over his remains for purely financial reasons. The wishes of the bloke are neither here nor there in this tug of war.

I may be way off base, but I seem to recall that they found two skeletons of adolescent boys curled up under a stairwell in the Tower of London. The speculation of course was that they were what was left of the princes.

[prendrelemick]

I can't find a U tube clip from the programme anywhere, but if you can get it the whole thing is here.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/4od

Or you can try a search, her name is Philippa Langley . The Times did a piece on her entitled, The Woman Who Is In Love With Richard III

There was a discovery of two adolescent's remains in the tower, I presume someone knows where the bones are now as it was a sensation at the time. Then there is Perkin Wellbeck, who claimed to be Prince Richard all growed up. I wonder if the whereabouts of his remains are known.


Has anyone else noticed that Liecester Council spent a million pounds on their Richard III visitor centre before they knew it was him ? Also Liecester Uni put alot of resources in. So I hope there wasn't too much pressure to come up with the right answer when interpreting DNA and carbon dating results. There was some doubt that the skeleton was even male. I hope they haven't dug up some old nun.

[Emil Miller]

I can't find a U tube clip from the programme anywhere, but if you can get it the whole thing is here.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/4od

Or you can try a search, her name is Philippa Langley . The Times did a piece on her entitled, The Woman Who Is In Love With Richard III

There was a discovery of two adolescent's remains in the tower, I presume someone knows where the bones are now as it was a sensation at the time. Then there is Perkin Wellbeck, who claimed to be Prince Richard all growed up. I wonder if the whereabouts of his remains are known.


Has anyone else noticed that Liecester Council spent a million pounds on their Richard III visitor centre before they knew it was him ? Also Liecester Uni put alot of resources in. So I hope there wasn't too much pressure to come up with the right answer when interpreting DNA and carbon dating results. There was some doubt that the skeleton was even male. I hope they haven't dug up some old nun.

Having got rid of the TV, this at least gave me a chance to see the programme. I had forgotten just how crass TV adverts are but the sight of Bruce Willis with the usual car crashes and explosions in tow confirmed that I have done the right thing. Are you ready for Die Hard part 5, or is it 6 ? As for the programme, it was longer than needed but interesting nevertheless, although the script could have done with a few less 'Wow's' and it was hilarious when one of the Ricardians said that: 'as soon as the body was lifted from the grave, it began to sink in.' The tearful woman was silly but it was the guy with check shirt and scruffy hairdo who was more irritating, because there are few things less visually appealing than a leading commentator who looks like Worzel Gummidge. Having usurped the throne, it would be difficult not to agree that Dickie got what he deserved.

[prendrelemick]

He was a strange choice, I think he is a comedian. I suppose the whole thing was a bit of a joke, with those Ricardians digging up a car park and Philippa getting a funny feeling right where there was an "R" painted on the tarmac, it was comedy gold - until they found the remains. Then I bet there was some hasty editorial reviews and they wished they'd got someone with more wieght.

[TheFifthElement]

He was a strange choice, I think he is a comedian.
I haven't seen the programme but saw a clip and he looked like one of the guys from Horrible Histories (the one who plays Caligula, and Death) so perhaps not such an odd choice after all. No weirder than Tony Robinson, anyway.

[Emil Miller]

He was a strange choice, I think he is a comedian. I suppose the whole thing was a bit of a joke, with those Ricardians digging up a car park and Philippa getting a funny feeling right where there was an "R" painted on the tarmac, it was comedy gold - until they found the remains. Then I bet there was some hasty editorial reviews and they wished they'd got someone with more wieght.

Of course, there was a time when first choice for such a programme would have been somebody like Sir Mortimer Wheeler but we have progressed since then: or so I'm often told.

http://imageshack.us/a/img26/552/stilldigging.jpg

[prendrelemick]

I haven't seen the programme but saw a clip and he looked like one of the guys from Horrible Histories (the one who plays Caligula, and Death) so perhaps not such an odd choice after all. No weirder than Tony Robinson, anyway.


I'm so glad you brought up Horrible Histories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6JczvS1PL4

And yes, that's where I've seen him before. Stupid deaths!

[cacian]

I'm so glad you brought up Horrible Histories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6JczvS1PL4

And yes, that's where I've seen him before.
Amasing that makes me think of ''Horrid Henry''. There is obviously a direct reference to Henry the Eight here. It does amuse me to no ends.

[prendrelemick]

Did someone mention Henry the Eighth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSXl_kNJuDg


Right I'll stop now .

[cacian]

Did someone mention Henry the Eighth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSXl_kNJuDg


Right I'll stop now .

Funny I just remembered. I use to think Henry the Eight had eight wives. I still sometimes do. It felt right because of his name. Go figure.:)


Of course, there was a time when first choice for such a programme would have been somebody like Sir Mortimer Wheeler but we have progressed since then: or so I'm often told.

http://imageshack.us/a/img26/552/stilldigging.jpg

Isn't that Clark Gable only old?

[Sancho]

Didn't Henry VIII challenge Louis XIV to a wrestling match at some point? Hey, I'm all for the heads of state (or realm) fighting out their differences amongst themselves instead of dragging the whole country into it, but I'm not quite sure it rose to the level of Henry V at Agincourt. Wonder why Shakespeare didn't cover that fight in his histories. Seems to me it would've made for great theater - two sweaty monarchs duking it out in a cage match - two kings enter, one king leaves.

Okay, I'm done.

[cacian]

Didn't Henry VIII challenge Louis XIV to a wrestling match at some point? Hey, I'm all for the heads of state (or realm) fighting out their differences amongst themselves instead of dragging the whole country into it, but I'm not quite sure it rose to the level of Henry V at Agincourt. Wonder why Shakespeare didn't cover that fight in his histories. Seems to me it would've made for great theater - two sweaty monarchs duking it out in a cage match - two kings enter, one king leaves.

Okay, I'm done.

Nah I would have thought Louis would have chickend out in view of Henry the Eight size and viguor. Louis a weak figure against a tycoon such as Henry. Fat chance. Doubt it would have taken place. Maybe Louis' excuses were he was too busy powdering his nose and face. They did like a bit of thick white make up powder as a shrine of their impending superiority. Go figure.
I do not think Henry would have enjoyed that on his expensive clothing.

[prendrelemick]

Yes they did and (whisper it quietly) Louis won ( he was called Francis tho). That was in the field of the cloth of gold. Henry was not as young and fit as he thought he was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U4GwgTSipw



now I really will stop.

[TheFifthElement]

now I really will stop.
Nah don't stop (best programme on TV) :D

[Sancho]

Yeah, there's some good info in those horrible histories.

Also, leave it to a Louis to fight dirty. Probably tripped him by kicking him in his gouty foot. That right there would bring down a big fella.

[Ecurb]

Didn't Henry VIII challenge Louis XIV to a wrestling match at some point? Hey, I'm all for the heads of state (or realm) fighting out their differences amongst themselves instead of dragging the whole country into it, but I'm not quite sure it rose to the level of Henry V at Agincourt. Wonder why Shakespeare didn't cover that fight in his histories. Seems to me it would've made for great theater - two sweaty monarchs duking it out in a cage match - two kings enter, one king leaves.

Okay, I'm done.

Given this method of solving international disputes, who would have been our (the U.S.'s) greatest president? I've actually spent some time mulling over this issue. The contenders:

Abraham Lincoln: the "railsplitter" used to wrestle all comers in his youth. He was in his 50s by the time he became president, and was 6'4", although thin. He might be the leading contender.

Teddy Roosevelt: He was the youngest President, 40 or 41 when he took office. He was also an outdoorsman and athlete who used to spar while in the White House.

William Taft: His 300 pound bulk would have made him formidable.

Gerald Ford -- An all-American football star, albeit 60 by the time he took office.

Andrew Jackson -- The tall, thin Indian fighter killed a man in a duel once, for calling his wife a bigamist (she was a bigamist, but unintentionally. Her divorce hadsn't been finalized when she married Andy, but in snail mail days, they thought it had).

I'd say those are the leading contenders, although the Bushes (the father was an all-American baseball player at Yale; the son was still in his 40s, and worked out a lot); U.S. Grant (for sheer pugnacity, although the years of hard living had taken a physical toll); Bill Clinton (has youth and bulk on his side, but is a little too friendly); and Kennedy (young and athletic, but had that bad back) might have contended.

Any votes? (I hope we don't elect Hillary if we are going to this new system.)

[Sancho]

I'm gonna have to go with T Rex, in a fair fight anyway - Teddy was a sportsman. As I was reading up on Henry VIII and Louis XIV, T.R. crossed my mind more than once. In a no-holds-barred fight, Andy Jackson all the way. He'd sucker punch you just as soon as look at you. I mean, look at a Twenty Dollar Bill, he's got those crazy eyes, and his hair - it frightens me.

Gotta agree with you about Hillary. She could take 'em all and not even break a sweat. Case in point, last week's Senate hearings on Benghazi.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Funny I just remembered. I use to think Henry the Eight had eight wives. I still sometimes do. It felt right because of his name. Go figure.:)
...

Cacian, you're thinking of Peter Noone...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZG0NZviGvA

------

Not sure if there's any relation to Richard III, but it was 426 years ago to the day (Feb 8) that a head fell from a red wig at Fotheringhay Castle.

[prendrelemick]

That's a perfectly revelant link Gilliat, Richard the Third was born at Fotheringhay Castle!



And it was FRANCIS I, the wrestler,- although Louis has come to mean any old French King.


As for the wrestlers send who ever you like, Mrs Thatcher 'll take em. She kept a house brick in that handbag.

[Lokasenna]

Given this method of solving international disputes, who would have been our (the U.S.'s) greatest president? I've actually spent some time mulling over this issue. The contenders:

Abraham Lincoln: the "railsplitter" used to wrestle all comers in his youth. He was in his 50s by the time he became president, and was 6'4", although thin. He might be the leading contender.

Teddy Roosevelt: He was the youngest President, 40 or 41 when he took office. He was also an outdoorsman and athlete who used to spar while in the White House.

William Taft: His 300 pound bulk would have made him formidable.

Gerald Ford -- An all-American football star, albeit 60 by the time he took office.

Andrew Jackson -- The tall, thin Indian fighter killed a man in a duel once, for calling his wife a bigamist (she was a bigamist, but unintentionally. Her divorce hadsn't been finalized when she married Andy, but in snail mail days, they thought it had).

I'd say those are the leading contenders, although the Bushes (the father was an all-American baseball player at Yale; the son was still in his 40s, and worked out a lot); U.S. Grant (for sheer pugnacity, although the years of hard living had taken a physical toll); Bill Clinton (has youth and bulk on his side, but is a little too friendly); and Kennedy (young and athletic, but had that bad back) might have contended.

Any votes? (I hope we don't elect Hillary if we are going to this new system.)

Have you by any chance come across the hypothetical Presidential knife-fight scenario? If not, then: http://faceintheblue.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/in-a-mass-knife-fight-to-the-death-between-every-american-president-who-would-win-and-why/

[Sancho]

Have you by any chance come across the hypothetical Presidential knife-fight scenario? If not, then: http://faceintheblue.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/in-a-mass-knife-fight-to-the-death-between-every-american-president-who-would-win-and-why/

Haha. Good link, Lok'.

Looks like the usual names keep popping up. Some how I just don't like Honest Abe, though, due to poor situational awareness. I keep seeing that picture of him standing on battlefield during the Civil War (Bull Run, 1st Manassas, can't remember), towering above everybody else, wearing a stovepipe hat. Finally one of the soldiers had to tell him he needed to duck. He was making too good a target for a Rebel sniper.

Sorry, Mick, I keep screwing up the Louis/Francis deal. My knowledge of French Kings is worse than my knowledge of English Kings, which also stinks. I do know that if you happened to be an English King, you were a lot better off if your name was Henry rather than Charles.

Just to keep this discussion on my level, whooee that Francis I had a beak on him, didn't he?

And oh yeah, Maggie would be tough, but I like my odds in a smack down between her and Hillary. You see, Margret was a conservative and hence would probably fight conventionally. With Hillary, no telling what she'd do. At any rate, it'd be a good fight. I'd pay money to see it. A nonstarter would be a matchup between Margret Thatcher and Richard Nixon - those two would probably just fall into a warm embrace.

[prendrelemick]

I reckon George W Bush would be a contender. ( Jeb 'ud fix it for him.)

[Sancho]

Good point. Also Dubya's got agility and good reflexes. Here he is dodging a couple of shoes in Baghdad a few years ago:

http://youtu.be/1rwxIjQZF98

[Paulclem]

I bet Richard III could take them all in a knife fight. Trained in knife and sword combat.

[Ecurb]

Thanks for the link. I'd never seen it before. A weaponless fight would favor the moderns more than a knife fight, I think. Clinton, the Bushes, and Obama were probably in better physical shape during their Presidencies than many 19th century Presidents -- just because we are more aware of the health values of working out. I'll grant those old army guys (like Grant or Hayes) were probably tougher mentally. But mental toughness only gets you so far. Size, strength and athletic ability are more important. (Obviously, Taft might not be a contender in a knife fight, but his bulk would make him tough hand to hand.) "W.", if memory serves, used to brag about benching 200 pounds when he was first President. He could King Kong James Madison (who was 5'3" tall) two handed over his head and pitch him out of the ring (if he didn't go awol from the match).

[Ecurb]

I bet Richard III could take them all in a knife fight. Trained in knife and sword combat.

Many of those old English Kings would have been tough with knives. Richard I was a bad ***, too. I believe Henry VIII was a jousting champion in his youth. Obviously, any of the physical combat scenarios would favor those under 40 -- no U.S. Presidents were that young.

[Lokasenna]

I bet Richard III could take them all in a knife fight. Trained in knife and sword combat.

Which leads us to the question of which English monarch would win in an all-out knife-fight? I suspect my crowd (i.e. the medieval lot) would have a significant advantage. That said, I bet the women would team up - Victoria, Matilda, Mary and the two Elizabeths would be quite the force to reckon with.

[Ecurb]

The obvious choice is King Arthur, who, according to (I think) Mallory, was not Lancelot's equal in the lists, but was his superior on the battlefield. Alfred the Great might garner some support at the tote windows, too (he'd use some tricky tactics).

Of the more historical Kings, Edward IV was 6'5". Edward Longshanks and Richard Coeur d'Leon were also big men, and (if the histories of the times are to be believed) mighty warriors. I'd pick Henry V as the corner man, to make speeches between rounds ("Once more into the breech...."). Richard III had the skill, but not the physical size or strength.

[Sancho]

Oliver Cromwell.
Wait, was he a king? Ah well, he was pretty good with a hatchet anyway.

[Paulclem]

Oliver Cromwell.
Wait, was he a king? Ah well, he was pretty good with a hatchet anyway.

He's the people's choice.

What a fantastic turn this thread has made.

[prendrelemick]

I'll bet my castle and all my chattels on Richard the First. He had the appetite for it.

The Nobs of those times used to have a thing called a tourney, where our imagined scenario was actually played out. There was a event called the Melee where the last man standing was declared the winner. Geoffrey, Richard's brother, was killed while competing , so they weren't messing about.

[qimissung]

I'm afraid when I think of Bush I think of that Monty Python scene in the Holy Grail movie:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92gP2J0CUjc

:D

[kev67]

I heard Henry VIII was the best swordsman in England, so I was surprised to hear the French King beat him at wrestling so easily. William the Conqueror was definitely a bruiser. Alfred the Great was reported to have charged uphill at the pagans like a wild boar.

I think Ethelred the Unready was a bit rubbish, but you never know, he might have been handy with his fists.

[Calidore]

Good point. Also Dubya's got agility and good reflexes. Here he is dodging a couple of shoes in Baghdad a few years ago:

http://youtu.be/1rwxIjQZF98

Agility and reflexes are nice and all, but Dubya is the classic "popular" rich boy who could always get others to do his bidding. I don't think anyone would consider him a genuine tough guy like Jackson and Roosevelt.

[prendrelemick]

I heard Henry VIII was the best swordsman in England, so I was surprised to hear the French King beat him at wrestling so easily. William the Conqueror was definitely a bruiser. Alfred the Great was reported to have charged uphill at the pagans like a wild boar.

I think Ethelred the Unready was a bit rubbish, but you never know, he might have been handy with his fists.


Yer, that William was a right bastard ! (medieval joke)

[TheFifthElement]

I think Ethelred the Unready was a bit rubbish, but you never know, he might have been handy with his fists.

Oh yeah, Aethelred was a bit of a wimp alright http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2iwDMLZlkiM hehehehe

[Paulclem]

Presidential cage fighting and medieval kingly smackdown. Does it get any better?

[Sancho]

If we could open it up to the Spaniards, I’m going to put my money on Hernán Cortés. He was smart, cool headed, and totally ruthless. He sailed out of Cuba a mere 12 hours before the viceroy was to arrest him (meaning he couldn’t go back). Sailed to and discovered Mexico, claimed it for the King of Spain (brilliantly cutting out the aforementioned viceroy back in Havana). Traveled across land and made contact with the Aztec Empire. Became a guest of Montezuma in their Capitol city of Tenochtitlan (psst! He was casing the joint). Left and then returned with a handful Spaniards and bunch of natives who were pissed at the Aztecs – and destroyed the Aztec Empire, renaming Tenochtitlan Mexico City, and showing the world what a conquistador with an attitude was capable of.

[prendrelemick]

It may be an oversight not to consider the Danish Kings of England. I reckon One-in-the-eye Harold would be pretty handy. However, for me It's the Plantagenets all the way.

If we're going non royal Spanish how about El Cid.


(Whispers to Fifth) I'll try and work in a mention of Charles (King of Bling) the II, then we can post the clip.

[kev67]

I watched the The King in the Car Park last night. I agree that woman was a bit daft, but you have to credit her for pushing the project through and raising the money for the dig. I found the bone expert woman a little annoying too. Simon Farnaby was a bit more sympathetic than when he is playing Death in Horrible Histories. His tag line "Stupid deaths, stupid deaths, they're funny coz they're. Stupid deaths, stupid deaths, let's hope next time it's not you." Then he pokes fun at how people managed to get themselves killed before he lets them pass onto the afterlife. Did anyone else remark how similar the facial reconstruction was to Laurence Olivier's portrayal of him?

[TheFifthElement]

(Whispers to Fifth) I'll try and work in a mention of Charles (King of Bling) the II, then we can post the clip.
I like your plan.

On the basis that someone mentioned the Aztecs:

If we could open it up to the Spaniards, I’m going to put my money on Hernán Cortés. He was smart, cool headed, and totally ruthless. He sailed out of Cuba a mere 12 hours before the viceroy was to arrest him (meaning he couldn’t go back). Sailed to and discovered Mexico, claimed it for the King of Spain (brilliantly cutting out the aforementioned viceroy back in Havana). Traveled across land and made contact with the Aztec Empire. Became a guest of Montezuma in their Capitol city of Tenochtitlan (psst! He was casing the joint). Left and then returned with a handful Spaniards and bunch of natives who were pissed at the Aztecs – and destroyed the Aztec Empire, renaming Tenochtitlan Mexico City, and showing the world what a conquistador with an attitude was capable of.


(thanks Sancho - though wasn't Cortez aided by disease in his 'campaign' against the Aztecs) this of course brings to mind the following little number http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBCjFlYVHls

and also reminds us of those other great South American race the Incas in which case surely we must mentioned Patchacuti, who would probably have kicked Cortez's bottom which leads neatly on to this little number... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51aHb_U8Zr0

and let's not forget the Roman Emperor smackdown, which has already been solved http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Nh-zSMzqo

[Sancho]

There were three great empires in Central and South America: the Aztecs and the Incas sandwiched the Mayans.

No doubt, a lot of things came together in the conquistador's favor, including the confusion for the Aztecs surrounding the end of time on their calendar. < That's a bad description; the Aztec calendar is circular, like the circle if life, like the seasons, but at the top of their calendar when everything regenerates, there are some unknowns. And that's when Cortes showed up, in full armor, on a massive armored horse, with huge war dogs (mastiffs, I think). The Aztecs didn't even think he was human. It's possible they thought, well this is it, I reckon. Turns out it was.

At any rate Cortes was stone cold, vastly out numbered, and fighting on somebody else's turf.

It occurs to me, though, that we're going down a slippery slope if we list every badass in history.

Gengis Khan. Haha, whoops.

[Sancho]

Ah well, since we’ve already gone down this road, I feel pretty good about Hernán Cortés against any three guys in a cage match or an Octagon smack down.

“In this corner we have The Master of Disaster, Conqueror of the Aztec Empire, fighting with the Sangre de Christo, El Luchador, Everybody make some noise for The Mexi-Cannon, Hernán Cortés!
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/Mexi-cannons_zpsa6652caf.jpg

[prendrelemick]

Ok its conspiracy theory time.

1/ A letter in the Independent from some bloke, said that the mitochondrial DNA of the skeleton could match that of most of the people in Liecester at that time.
2/ The bones had definite female characteristics.
3/ The carbon dating was wrong initially, untill adjusted for a high shell fish diet. How can we be sure what his/her diet was?
4/ Leicester Council spent £1000,000 on their preparations BEFORE the results of the DNA came through, possibly putting presure on -
5/ Leicester University who had also committed significant resources to the project and they were the sole arbiters of the is it, or isn't it Richard question.
6/ There was an overwhelming desire for it to be Richard, even the the scientists may not have been immune to this.
7/ There has been no peer reveiw of the academic conclusions.

Musicology would be proud of me.

[Paulclem]

Ok its conspiracy theory time.

1/ A letter in the Independent from some bloke, said that the mitochondrial DNA of the skeleton could match that of most of the people in Liecester at that time.
2/ The bones had definite female characteristics.
3/ The carbon dating was wrong initially, untill adjusted for a high shell fish diet. How can we be sure what his/her diet was?
4/ Leicester Council spent £1000,000 on their preparations BEFORE the results of the DNA came through, possibly putting presure on -p
5/ Leicester University who had also committed significant resources to the project and they were the sole arbiters of the is it, or isn't it Richard question.
6/ There was an overwhelming desire for it to be Richard, even the the scientists may not have been immune to this.
7/ There has been no peer reveiw of the academic conclusions.

Musicology would be proud of me.

To be him or not to be him. That is the question...

[kev67]

Ok its conspiracy theory time.

1/ A letter in the Independent from some bloke, said that the mitochondrial DNA of the skeleton could match that of most of the people in Liecester at that time.
2/ The bones had definite female characteristics.
3/ The carbon dating was wrong initially, untill adjusted for a high shell fish diet. How can we be sure what his/her diet was?
4/ Leicester Council spent £1000,000 on their preparations BEFORE the results of the DNA came through, possibly putting presure on -
5/ Leicester University who had also committed significant resources to the project and they were the sole arbiters of the is it, or isn't it Richard question.
6/ There was an overwhelming desire for it to be Richard, even the the scientists may not have been immune to this.
7/ There has been no peer reveiw of the academic conclusions.

Musicology would be proud of me.

They sound like reasonable objections. However it would have been a rare woman with those sort of battle injuries.

I wondered about the mitochondrial DNA. It is inherited mostly unchanged down the female line except for mutations that are assumed to occur at a constant rate. I would have thought a lot of people could have very similar DNA, but that Richard's great-great nephew mitochondrial DNA might not be exactly the same due to mutation. I don't know much about it though.

I wondered about the shellfish diet too. It would be fair to assume a royal would eat more meat than a peasant from those days, but shellfish? I suppose York is close to the sea.

[prendrelemick]

They sound like reasonable objections. However it would have been a rare woman with those sort of battle injuries.



Knitting injuries?


That spine looked a bit alien to me, an all.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Ok its conspiracy theory time...

...Musicology would be proud of me.


...However it would have been a rare woman with those sort of battle injuries.

...


Knitting injuries?


That spine looked a bit alien to me, an all.

Joan of Arc ?

Historical records indicate that she met her…ruin in Rouen, but some contend that her bones were not reduced to ashes.
Is it possible that this “French toast” found her way under the Leicester car park?
The spine is from France which explains your alien appearance.

“Rouen” might explain the “R” marking.

[prendrelemick]

Hmm you've got the idea there Gilliat. The important thing is never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.


I couldn't help noticing that the leader of project car park looked suspiciously like Henry VIII - perhaps a decendant? Could the whole thing be another scurrilous Tudor Plot - the ultimate indignity heaped upon Richard, having him usurped even in death by a crook- backed woman.

[Paulclem]

Well you know the rhyme:

Richard of York gave battle in vain.

They said it was Bosworth so....

[prendrelemick]

Another unpopular Plantagenet was King John.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riUWuTpZfZ0



Just found the "Deadliest Warrior series" on utube, similar idea but a bit serious. How about George Washington Vs Napoleon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=Pl_MLGMXWUw

[kasie]

Another unpopular Plantagenet was King John....

But at least we know where he was buried - he's in Worcester Cathedral. He was apparently so unpopular that most churches were rather reluctant to take him but Worcester which was a monastic establishment as was the final resting place of Richard III eventually did the charitable thing and found him a spot not too far from the High Altar, again like Richard.

[prendrelemick]

It's surprising who you find in England's Medieval Cathederals. That's one of the reasons I like going round them, among all the the forgotten Bishops and Barons you can stumble across a significant historical figure. Without them a Cathedral is just a pile of stones, but if you find, say, King John buried there, and you can reach out and touch his sepulchre, the whole history of the place and of the Nation feels much more real. (I was going to say comes alive but that doesn't fit)

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

I was having a chuckle at your King John video which led me to a Roger Miller song I like to sing in the shower regarding Nottingham. His mentioning of Prince John and taxation, led me to Richard I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSXM3Zg0eBo

While listening to this^, I learned that Richard I was divvied up between Rouen,Châlus and Anjou.
(Note the coincidence with Rouen and Joan of Arc)

From wikipedia:
"Richard's heart was buried at Rouen in Normandy, the entrails in Châlus (where he died) and the rest of his body was buried at the feet of his father at Fontevraud Abbey in Anjou"

[prendrelemick]

The entrails and lights were often buried near to where they died in order to stop the body from becoming "noisome" during its royal progression to the final resting place.

The heart thing was fairly common too. The Crusaders used pop the heart of a fallen comrade into a lead pot and send it back home for burial.

[Lokasenna]

Whilst we're on the topic of getting heads of state to fight, the resignation of Emperor Palpantine... sorry, Pope Benedict XVI... made me wonder who the pluckiest Pope in history might be. Any contenders? My money would be on either Alexander VI or Benedict IX...

[prendrelemick]

Julius II was known as The Fearsome Pope. So I'd back him.

[prendrelemick]

It seems the proposed tomb for Richard (designed by The Ricardians) has the Lancastrian rose on it! More indignity heaped upon the dead King. You can tell the difference when not in colour, by the position of the sepels.


Are those Tudors are still at it, and have infiltrated The Richard the III society.



Also in the news this morning, Macbeth. He was a sweet cuddly thoroughly decent chap after all.

[kev67]

Yer, that William was a right bastard ! (medieval joke)

I believe he was originally known as William the Bastard, at least according to an historical novel I read about one of his bodyguards.

Anyway, an article in New Scientist pointed out that at the press conference, the University of Leicester spokesperson used legal terminology, "beyond reasonable doubt." New Scientist says science establishes truth differently to law courts, and that Leicester University's findings have to be peer-reviewed.

By the way, King Henry I is buried somewhere in Reading. He was buried under Reading Abbey, but, when Henry VIII disolved the monastaries, his body could not be found. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England#Death_and_legacy), the best guess is that he is buried under a nearby school.

[prendrelemick]

king Henry I is missing! Send for Time Team. The most pertinent thing I remember about him is that he had about 29 children, but only one Royal male heir who was lost at sea in the famous White Ship.

That led to all sorts of trouble and strife between King Stephen and the Empress Matilda, Until Henry II came along and was probably the most powerful King we've ever had.

[kev67]

I think even the Time Team would have a problem finding him. The school he is supposed to be under, St James School, does not seem to exist any more. There's a St James Church close by, but no school. It turns out Henry I was buried in more than one place. His brains, bowels, heart, eyes and tongue were all buried in Rouen in France. The rest of him was buried in a silver coffin in Reading Abbey.

http://www.berkshirehistory.com/villages/reading.html

I must say, those Plantagenets are what I regard as proper kings. English history tends to start at 1066, so the Saxon kings don't count. The Tudors were interlopers. The Stuarts were Scottish interlopers. The rest since then have been German interlopers. None of them did any proper fighting since the Restoration nor any proper ruling. Whenever there was a break in the line of succession, Parliament would invite someone from another country to be king or queen. Just so long as they weren't Catholics. Queen Victoria should never have been queen. George IV had children but Parliament would not recognise his marriage because she was Catholic, so the children were considered illegitimate. Henry VIII has a lot to answer for.

[prendrelemick]

It gets even better. Mrs P informs me his body (or what remained of it) was put inside the carcase of a bull and shipped to England for burial - it was the old problem of the noisome corpse again - though how that was supposed to help I'm not sure.

I should explain Mrs P is a big Jean Plaidy fan, she has read all her historical books and they go from William I to Victoria.

I think William of Orange was the last English King to lead his troops to battle. He was a proffesional soldier before he was invited to rule in England in place of the Catholic James the second.

[Emil Miller]

Given recent the UK parliamentary vote on 'same sex marriages', might we not see a similar arrangement should an heir to the throne be so inclined ?

[prendrelemick]

I don't reckon so. The only bar to the throne is the catholic faith and there are plenty of heirs around especially as from now on female offspring will have equal precedence.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

...used pop the heart of a fallen comrade into a lead pot...

Do you suppose that is where we get the phrase "heavy heart"?
"It is with heavy heart that I inform you of Richard's passing...oh and here ya go, the heart's in the pot"



...His brains, bowels, heart, eyes and tongue were all buried in Rouen in France....

Another reference to Rouen, what's behind the French Connection? Norman?

edit

I meant to add that today (Feb 16) is the anniversary of Howard Carters discovery of King Tut's burial chamber in 1923.
This led me to wonderin', have there been any mentions of curses befalling those who tamper with Richard III?

[Paulclem]

Do you suppose that is where we get the phrase "heavy heart"?
"It is with heavy heart that I inform you of Richard's passing...oh and here ya go, the heart's in the pot"




Another reference to Rouen, what's behind the French Connection? Norman?




The French connection remained strong after 1066. The Pantagenets were French and regarded English as an inferior language, and their culture of reference was France. King Richard The Lionheart, for example, spent a grand total of 6 months in England, and I think that was to raise taxes for the crusades. Most of them didn't speak English, and it was only until later that the monarchy invested culturally in England and the English. We still have an overhang of French sophistication in our attitudes today which all started with William. It is reflected in the language as well - the French chef being regarded more highly than the English word cook, and has led to differentiation of the roles into restaurant standard and bog standard.

[Emil Miller]

I don't reckon so. The only bar to the throne is the catholic faith and there are plenty of heirs around especially as from now on female offspring will have equal precedence.

What a shame. It would have given a whole new meaning to 'Queen of England.'

[Sancho]

Okay, Emil, you cracked me up again.

Modern English is rife with examples like Cook/Chef: Pig/Pork, Cow/Beef, Food/Cuisine, Earth/Terrain.

Or so I'm told.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Talking of Time Team, I used to love Time Team, brilliant stuff. Tony Robinson, some badly dressed archaealcoholics with beards, big trenches, 'geo-fizz?' Roman stuff and computer and artistic reconstructions. What more do you want for Sunday night? (Apart from Heartbeat of course.) Fantastic!


Modern English is rife with examples like Cook/Chef: Pig/Pork, Cow/Beef, Food/Cuisine, Earth/Terrain.

Cow/beef/horse is another one...

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

The French connection remained strong after 1066. The Pantagenets were French and regarded English as an inferior language, and their culture of reference was France. King Richard The Lionheart, for example, spent a grand total of 6 months in England, and I think that was to raise taxes for the crusades. Most of them didn't speak English, and it was only until later that the monarchy invested culturally in England and the English. We still have an overhang of French sophistication in our attitudes today which all started with William. It is reflected in the language as well - the French chef being regarded more highly than the English word cook, and has led to differentiation of the roles into restaurant standard and bog standard.

Thanks Paul.

I'm learning a lot about Engish history from this thread.
My parents shouldn't have pulled me out of Cathlolic school so early.




Cow/beef/horse is another one...

Haha! I got a good laugh at that one. Thanks

[Sancho]

Haha.

We have a word over here that would've prevented all of the hullabaloo over there:

Critter

Hmm, but I suppose you don't want to go mixing Varmint in with your Critter burgers.

[prendrelemick]

GG: In those days France was one of a collection of states - France, Normandy, Navarre, Maine-Anjou and more. Rouen was the capital of Normandy and the seat of the Norman Kings of England. So it's fitting that bits of them were sent there to be buried.

The word Norman is just a corruption of Norseman or Northman and Normandy was a Viking kingdom just like the North of England was. William the conqueror had as good a claim to the English throne as One-in-the-eye Harold as he was related to our Danish Kings.


Sancho: That is genius.

[kev67]

I read that Henry VIII had the last abbot of Reading hung, drawn and quartered for high treason - nice! I wondered whether that had anything to do with the body of King Henry I and his silver coffin having gone missing. However, Wikipedia says the abbot was executed for giving money to some northern rebels. The abbot, Hugh Cook Faringdon, was beatified in 1895. So Reading has its own king and its own saint - cool! Personally, I suspect Henry I's silver coffin was melted down and his bones thrown in the river. Reading is also the place where Britain's earliest written song comes from - Sumer Is Icumen In. We even had a holy relic, St James' hand, but that's now in a museum in Marlow (boo).

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

GG: In those days France was one of a collection of states - France, Normandy, Navarre, Maine-Anjou and more. Rouen was the capital of Normandy and the seat of the Norman Kings of England. So it's fitting that bits of them were sent there to be buried.

The word Norman is just a corruption of Norseman or Northman and Normandy was a Viking kingdom just like the North of England was. William the conqueror had as good a claim to the English throne as One-in-the-eye Harold as he was related to our Danish Kings.


Sancho: That is genius.



I read that Henry VIII had the last abbot of Reading hung, drawn and quartered for high treason - nice! I wondered whether that had anything to do with the body of King Henry I and his silver coffin having gone missing. However, Wikipedia says the abbot was executed for giving money to some northern rebels. The abbot, Hugh Cook Faringdon, was beatified in 1895. So Reading has its own king and its own saint - cool! Personally, I suspect Henry I's silver coffin was melted down and his bones thrown in the river. Reading is also the place where Britain's earliest written song comes from - Sumer Is Icumen In. We even had a holy relic, St James' hand, but that's now in a museum in Marlow (boo).

Thanks.
I'm now recalling the French Connection due mostly in part to a copy of 1966 National Geographic magazine I held on to after clearing out the family home after the parents passing.

A few shots from the magazine you Ricardians might appreciate:

(click on the thumbnails for larger image)

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Books/th_IMGP2962_zps0e953aba.jpg (http://s963.beta.photobucket.com/user/tabuka1/media/Books/IMGP2962_zps0e953aba.jpg.html)


The end of Harold (Mick's "poke in the eye")
If you look closely you can just make out the shaft in Harold's hand as he attempts to pull it out of his eye...

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Books/th_IMGP2964_zps243017d1.jpg (http://s963.beta.photobucket.com/user/tabuka1/media/Books/IMGP2964_zps243017d1.jpg.html)

Halley's comet passed in 1066 and was recorded on the tapestry
You can see it along the top border...

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Books/th_IMGP2963_zpse24ad6ef.jpg (http://s963.beta.photobucket.com/user/tabuka1/media/Books/IMGP2963_zpse24ad6ef.jpg.html)

[prendrelemick]

I read that Henry VIII had the last abbot of Reading hung, drawn and quartered for high treason - nice! I wondered whether that had anything to do with the body of King Henry I and his silver coffin having gone missing. However, Wikipedia says the abbot was executed for giving money to some northern rebels. The abbot, Hugh Cook Faringdon, was beatified in 1895. So Reading has its own king and its own saint - cool! Personally, I suspect Henry I's silver coffin was melted down and his bones thrown in the river. Reading is also the place where Britain's earliest written song comes from - Sumer Is Icumen In. We even had a holy relic, St James' hand, but that's now in a museum in Marlow (boo).

That would be part of the "Harrowing of the North" that Henry VIII instigated as punishment for being rebellious. We've long memories round these parts.


Thanks.
I'm now recalling the French Connection due mostly in part to a copy of 1966 National Geographic magazine I held on to after clearing out the family home after the parents passing.

A few shots from the magazine you Ricardians might appreciate:

(click on the thumbnails for larger image)

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Books/th_IMGP2962_zps0e953aba.jpg (http://s963.beta.photobucket.com/user/tabuka1/media/Books/IMGP2962_zps0e953aba.jpg.html)


The end of Harold (Mick's "poke in the eye")
If you look closely you can just make out the shaft in Harold's hand as he attempts to pull it out of his eye...

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Books/th_IMGP2964_zps243017d1.jpg (http://s963.beta.photobucket.com/user/tabuka1/media/Books/IMGP2964_zps243017d1.jpg.html)

Halley's comet passed in 1066 and was recorded on the tapestry
You can see it along the top border...

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Books/th_IMGP2963_zpse24ad6ef.jpg (http://s963.beta.photobucket.com/user/tabuka1/media/Books/IMGP2963_zpse24ad6ef.jpg.html)

Ahh the Bayeux tapestry. An early example of a graphic novel. Some ladies in a Scottish Isle sewing circle have just completed a copy.

[kev67]

That would be part of the "Harrowing of the North" that Henry VIII instigated as punishment for being rebellious. We've long memories round these parts.



Ahh the Bayeux tapestry. An early example of a graphic novel. Some ladies in a Scottish Isle sewing circle have just completed a copy.

There is also a copy in Reading Museum. Reading has a tenuous link with Battle, the town near Hastings where the Battle of Hastings was fought. Some Victorian ladies decided it would be a good idea to make a copy of the Bayeux Tapestry. It's fairly faithful to the original, but where the original clearly showed stallions, the copy shows geldings.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

...a copy of the Bayeux Tapestry. It's fairly faithful to the original, but where the original clearly showed stallions, the copy shows geldings.

That is interesting, I'll see if I can find the Reading copy on the interwebs.

Their rendering of the horses may stem from the recent dietary supplements you're experiencing over there.
Prendrelemick, are you sure "Jasmine" wasn't a gelding?

[prendrelemick]

Victorian Ladies didn't do horse's knackers. They ignored their existance for fear of becoming "fallen women."

[kasie]

You know this theory of being only six removes from anyone you care to mention? I've just realised I'm only a few removes from William the Conqueror, thank to Kev's post: the connection between Reading and Battle is that Battle Abbey (founded by William after the Battle of Hastings) owned land in Reading. It was where the old Battle Hospital was built - now a Tesco Superstore. My first flat was built on land that had belonged to Battle Hospital; therefore it was built on land that had been gifted to Battle Abbey by William himself; therefore I should have been paying my groundrent to the Duchy of Normandy.... Just a thought....

I think the Scottish ladies have 'completed' the Bayeux Tapestry, in that they have added a post-battle scene or two.

[prendrelemick]

little known - or maybe not - there were 5 contenders for the throne when Edward the confessor died in 1066.

The problem was the last 3 kings had died without issue, so direct heirs were scarce.

Eadgar the Atheling, who was probably the rightful king but a bit young. Harold Godwinson, Harold Hardrada of Norway, Sweyn of denmark, and William.

William was the last man standing so he got the prize.

[Zaza]

Edgar the Atheling asked for military support from Malcolm Canmore, king of Scotland, to enforce his claim.What Malcolm wanted in return was Edgar's sister Margaret, who he had fallen for in a big way. Margaret wanted to be a nun, but had to do as she was told. She married Malcolm and had a huge influence on Scottish culture and religion and was later made a saint.

Apparently Malcolm was under her thumb because he was so crazy about her and let her choose all their childrens' names and she chose names that the Scottish royals had never used before, like Edgar (Saxon) and Alexander, which was still a popular name in Scotland in the 20th century.

Of course, Edgar never did get his throne and spent the rest of his life wandering about Europe (a very long fifty years I believe) occasionally tagging along on other rulers' wars. It was a perennial problem for pretenders - what do you do with the rest of your life?

[prendrelemick]

I didn't realize he had outlived all the other contenders. It just goes to show The King is he who can hold onto the crown. Are you a historian by any chance ?

Mrs P is a great admirer of the sainted Queen Margaret ( formerly known as the Maid of Norway). We were going round Durham Cathedral and there she was, or there her tomb was, just behind St Cuthbert. It made Mrs P's day. I wonder why she was buried there.

[Lokasenna]

We were going round Durham Cathedral and there she was, or there her tomb was, just behind St Cuthbert. It made Mrs P's day.

Always a good idea! Did you see Bede - he's buried in there as well.

Actually, it's not Margaret's tomb - it's a memorial. She's buried in Bergen. As for why she gets a chapel, well Bishop Bek was a supporter of the Scottish royal family into which she married, and supported her claim to the throne.

[prendrelemick]

Yep, we saw the Bede extension round the back.

Not her tomb! That'll be my memory playing up again.

You're right, a look round Durham is a good idea - the Cathedral and the town. I prefer the solid no nonsense Norman style to the fancy soaring Gothic .

[Lokasenna]

You're right, a look round Durham is a good idea - the Cathedral and the town. I prefer the solid no nonsense Norman style to the fancy soaring Gothic .

I am unashamedly of the opinion that Durham Cathedral is not only the finest piece of architecture in this country, but ranks amongst the finest in Europe overall. As far as ecclesiastical architecture goes, there isn't much that commands awe in the way Durham Cathedral does. And most things about the historic town centre are pleasing to the eye as well.

[Zaza]

York Minster is the most beautiful building I have seen - my favourite building in my favourite city.

[Paulclem]

They're both impressive. The setting for Durham, overlooking the river, is brilliant . We visited in Autumn in the late 80s and the views were lovely.

[prendrelemick]

The east window at york minster is really magnificent. Forget the photos, they can't do it justice, you have to go and see it.

Same with that royal choir screen, fantastic.



Edit: Did you go up the Tower Paul? Last time I was up there I had an attack of vertigo, I felt like clinging to the flag pole

[Paulclem]

The east window at york minster is really magnificent. Forget the photos, they can't do it justice, you have to go and see it.

Same with that royal choir screen, fantastic.



Edit: Did you go up the Tower Paul? Last time I was up there I had an attack of vertigo, I felt like clinging to the flag pole

I did. I went up with Mrs Paulclem before we married. She hates heights - she has trouble crossing bridges - but wouldn't let me see that she was scared - until we were at the top! She was very shaky coming down those spiral stairs. Fantastic views and drop. Unnerving.

[kasie]

One of my friends went out with her Geology group yesterday to one of the local graveyards. (Interesting fossils in some of the headstones, apparently.) Her neighbour asked as she was leaving, 'Who are you going to dig up? Richard the Fourth?'

[Lokasenna]

York Minster is a very close competitor to Durham Cathedral, but I think the Cathedral's spectacular setting and position just give it the edge. Also, York Minster charges you £10 to get in - a major black mark in my book!

Anyway, I heard a terrible joke on the radio before, and thought I'd share: "A team of archaeologists descended on a potatoe field in Dorset, having learned it may contain several King Edwards..."

[prendrelemick]

That's Terrible!


Of the three great Northern Cathedrals Lincoln can hold its own as well. You go down a narrow street, through a gate and you are confronted by this

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k78/prendrelemick/lincolncath_zps45d0686a.jpg

That's the West Front - the oldest bit , Now that's what I call an entrance.

At Durham you go through a insignificant side door and you find this.-

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k78/prendrelemick/Durham-Cathedral_zps9178e0e8.jpg

Solid in-proportion Norman columns, cool and calm built to last.

York is stuffed with finery, like its east window.-

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k78/prendrelemick/eastwindow_zpsac13fa38.jpg

These photos don't do any of them justice.
They are all fantastic, but I like Durham's honesty.

[Zaza]

Since they started charging admission to York Minster I tend to admire it from the outside.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

...She was very shaky coming down those spiral stairs. Fantastic views and drop. Unnerving.

I can empathize with her, now imagine walking up spiral steps in a tilted tower!


http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/th_1820820-R02-170.jpg (http://s963.beta.photobucket.com/user/tabuka1/media/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/1820820-R02-170.jpg.html)

The trek was unnerving, but the views are well worth it

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/th_1820820-R02-162.jpg (http://s963.beta.photobucket.com/user/tabuka1/media/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/1820820-R02-162.jpg.html)



That's Terrible!


Of the three great Northern Cathedrals Lincoln can hold its own as well. You go down a narrow street, through a gate and you are confronted by this

[IMG]

That's the West Front - the oldest bit , Now that's what I call an entrance.

At Durham you go through a insignificant side door and you find this.-

[IMG]

Solid in-proportion Norman columns, cool and calm built to last.

York is stuffed with finery, like its east window.-

[IMG]

These photos don't do any of them justice.
They are all fantastic, but I like Durham's honesty.

Amazing! Now I'm really cursing myself for not making it across the Channel.
One day I'll make the trek over there and drop in on you blokes and have you give me a tour.


EDIT...

Getting back to Richard III for a moment, has there been any updates on the recent discovery?

.

[prendrelemick]

Not really, there's a petition going round "demanding" his remains be buried in york, but it's not going to happen. The Ricardians have designed his tomb and will pay for it (I hope they get the rose the right way up though.)

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k78/prendrelemick/_65844946_tomb1_zps095c554a.jpg



King Charles I has a society too


http://skcm.org/

[Zaza]

There's a programme on More4 this Wednesday (27th) at 9pm which is not an update but will feature previously unseen (!) footage from the investigation. I'm in!

[prendrelemick]

Back to the cage fighting monarchs and leaders of men. Here is an alphabetical list of their nicknames, that could be very useful for promotional posters.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_by_nickname



Basil The Bulgar-Slayer.. vs...William The Bastard.

Also appearing...

Fredrick Great Belly Gerent...vs....Hairy Breechers Ragnor.

this time its personal....

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

What a find!
Great character names.
"Minus a Quarter" vs "Queen" (James I of England - "Queen"? hmmm)

[Lokasenna]

I have no idea who Ivailo "the Cabbage" of Bulgaria was, but I'd love to meet him...

[Emil Miller]

I have no idea who Ivailo "the Cabbage" of Bulgaria was, but I'd love to meet him...

Given that immigration controls for Bulgaria and Romania are to be removed this year, you might well get to meet him:

'Up to 250,000 Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants could flood into Britain in the next five years, the group has predicted, after ministers refused to give an official estimate.'

[prendrelemick]

Now I'm no expert in etymology, but when you see James II's nick name, and remember he fled the country when the going got tough you can see the meaning of "The Be-s***ten" has not changed.

[prendrelemick]

There's a programme on More4 this Wednesday (27th) at 9pm which is not an update but will feature previously unseen (!) footage from the investigation. I'm in!



That was better.

I reckon C4 were going to do a job on Phillippa and the Ricardians for the first one, and their plans were ruined when Richards remains really did turn up. Last nights programme was more serious and befitting.

[qimissung]

Here's something for you history buffs:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?74002-Don-t-know-much-about-history&p=1205562#post1205562

[Zaza]

The follow-up programme on Richard III was definitely better than the first, with it's emphasis on the tests rather than on the emotional faffing-around. Better mitochondrial DNA than sobbing !

[cacian]

Just a syntax question call it being pedantic and i am not usually :)
The OP title: Richard III reads: Richard the third.
What is written reads Richard three.
which is which? do we reading what we do not see?

[Paulclem]

Just a syntax question call it being pedantic and i am not usually :)
The OP title: Richard III reads: Richard the third.
What is written reads Richard three.
which is which? are we reading what we do not see?

An Irishman would call him Richard the Turd.

[cacian]

An Irishman would call him Richard the Turd.

Ah. It is not what it says on the tin though.

[prendrelemick]

Richard III is how you write Richard the Third. Hollywood films follow different a tradition so- "Richard III III" The Movie, would be Richard the Third Three.

I suppose you could write Richard the 33.33333333333% but that would be just silly.

[cacian]

Richard III is how you write Richard the Third. Hollywood films follow different a tradition so- "Richard III III" the movie, would be Richard the Third Three.

What is this tradition? That reads like Richard VI.

[Paulclem]

I have no idea who Ivailo "the Cabbage" of Bulgaria was, but I'd love to meet him...

I knew a bloke called cabbage once. He wasn't Bulgarian, and you would definately not want to meet him. (He was an armed robber before being jailed).Perhaps he had Bulgarian ancestors.

[Paulclem]

Richard III is how you write Richard the Third. Hollywood films follow different a tradition so- "Richard III III" The Movie, would be Richard the Third Three.

I suppose you could write Richard the 33.33333333333% but that would be just silly.

The fraction would work though wouldn't it. Richard 1/3 III

I can see it now:
Richard 1/3 III Buggered at Bosworth....

...or would they give up the franchise so quickly? Perhaps they would paint the Ricardians as Necromancers and raise Richard 1/3 from the grave beneath the car park in a midnight ritual which resulted in a zombie apocalypse in Leicester resulting in:

Richard 1/3 IV Zombie Crookback Terror.....but we're getting way off track now...

[prendrelemick]

Here's something for you history buffs:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?74002-Don-t-know-much-about-history&p=1205562#post1205562


Hmm.. what rhymes with Crookback Zombie?


...Perhaps he came from Abercrombie....

[prendrelemick]

The fraction would work though wouldn't it. Richard 1/3 III

I can see it now:
Richard 1/3 III Buggered at Bosworth....

...or would they give up the franchise so quickly? Perhaps they would paint the Ricardians as Necromancers and raise Richard 1/3 from the grave beneath the car park in a midnight ritual which resulted in a zombie apocalypse in Leicester resulting in:

Richard 1/3 IV Zombie Crookback Terror.....but we're getting way off track now...


Another swipe with that digger in the car park, and he would've been Richard the 1/3.

[cacian]

Anyone knows anything about Richard the lion heart ? There is somethign about him in the news. Apparently he was a selfish cruel king who did not speak English. His statue is veneered outside the houses of parliaments. Interesting considering he was not liked.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

The fraction would work though wouldn't it. Richard 1/3 III

I can see it now:
Richard 1/3 III Buggered at Bosworth....

...or would they give up the franchise so quickly? Perhaps they would paint the Ricardians as Necromancers and raise Richard 1/3 from the grave beneath the car park in a midnight ritual which resulted in a zombie apocalypse in Leicester resulting in:

Richard 1/3 IV Zombie Crookback Terror.....but we're getting way off track now...


Another swipe with that digger in the car park, and he would've been Richard the 1/3.


Ahh, now I understand why Michael VII Dukas, (Byzantine Emperor) nickname was "Minus-a-quarter"

an aside - From Mick's list, just below "minus-a-quarter", I see that Ivan I of Russia's nickname was "moneybags"



His statue is veneered outside the houses of parliaments.

What type of veneer are they using over there? Plywood?, stucco?...maybe brick?
Cacian did you by chance mean venerated?

[cacian]

What type of veneer are they using over there? Plywood?, stucco?...maybe brick?
Cacian did you by chance mean venerated?
LOL oops yes yes veneered oops!!not again !! it is venerated haha.:p

[Zaza]

Richard I - obsessed with war, particularly crusading.

True, probably didn't speak English, like many of the Anglo-Norman ruling class.

Only spent six months of his ten-year reign in England - too busy fighting.

His queen, Berengaria of Navarre, is the only English queen never to have set foot in England while her husband was on the throne (although she did visit afterwards).

[prendrelemick]

The thing is Richard was absent for so long he was a symbol rather than a reality, so when the peasants were having a hard time they could say - if only Richard were back, he'd set everything to rights - you know just like in Robin Hood. Kings are well thought of when they're not there.

Unfortunately he was captured while returning from the Crusades. The ramsom that was paid for his release was so large it all but beggered the country. His brother John raised the sum through taxes and so was hated. Then he inherited a broke kingdom when Richard died. He was known as Bad King John.

[Zaza]

I have to say, though, Richard I isn't one of my favourite kings. Well, when I say 'favourite', I mean he's not one of the ones I find most interesting. The most warlike ones were all a bit grim. Better someone really messed-up like Richard II or inadequate like Henry VI.

[prendrelemick]

Like the toast, "May you live in interesting times" , Kings who did things, rather than were just figureheads, are my favourites. So that discounts everyone from George II forwards. Henry II is the leading contender - he has the best record for Kingly accomplishments.

On the other hand Charles II knew how to enjoy himself - no point being King if you're going to be miserable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=War-7M9Nv3A

[Zaza]

Henry II certainly achieved a vast amount at a very young age, and he was a veritable whirlwind of activity, I understand. I believe he first tried to invade England to claim his birthright when he was fourteen, and king Stephen had to pay for his fare to get back to France, so obviously no hard feelings there! And he certainly had an interesting love life. And he came to hate his sons and his wife and vice versa. You're right - it's all there.

However, I am obliged still to have a soft spot for Richard III, who was my teenage love. Although my eyes have been opened since then, I still have an interest in him that's different from all the others, but I can see him objectively now.

[prendrelemick]

Now, if there was a dating agency for Queens (watch out for Emil's comment below) the one I'd most like to take on a date would be the young Eleanor of Aquitaine, Henry II's consort. Not just because she was the wealthiest hieress there's ever been, she was also fecund and feisty.

[Zaza]

An agency where you could arrange dates with Queens! Brilliant idea! Yes, Eleanor was a fascinating character, with her trip to the holy land and the scandalous goings-on (which probably never happened) but it shows what a feisty character she was that they made up that stuff about her. I think she would be just like Katherine Hepburn in 'The Lion in Winter', one of those women who suits being middle-aged and old as much as they suited being young (much like Hepburn herself).

As for the fecund bit, I am a little appalled by the number of children those aristocratic women had, and how it often shortened their lives (though not Eleanor's).

How would other queens rate as dates? Who would be feistiest, sexiest, most arrogant, colourless or boring?

[prendrelemick]

Yes the "perpulchra" Eleanor would've had time for little else if she got up to half the shinannigans she was supposed to have.


Then there's Matilda, consort to Henry I and daughter of the Sainted Margaret of Scotland;-


"It causes pleasure to see the queen whom no woman equals in beauty of body or face, hiding her body, nevertheless, in a veil of loose clothing. Here alone, with new modesty, wishes to conceal it, but what gleams with its own light cannot be hidden and the sun, penetrating his clouds, hurls his rays."

Perhap she would be on the books of a high class Escort Agency, for those red carpet events. Nothing dodgy though, she spent her early years in a convent and was veiled to protect her from "the lust of Normans."

Another red carpet choice would be Elizabeth Woodville, who caught a king (Ed IV) with her looks alone.


The most arrogant is easy, that would be The Empress Matilda - who took arrogance to a whole new level.

[Zaza]

A little fact I forgot to mention - Eleanor of Aquitaine's grandmother was called Dangerosa. Wow.

I've just been reading about Matilda of Scotland, and how she had to convince Archbishop Anselm that she hadn't really taken the veil and could be allowed to marry. My favourite part was when she was in the convent before she caught Henry's eye. Alan the Red (!), Count of Brittany liked the look of her, but she didn't want to know, so he turned his attention to Gunnhildr, daughter of Harold Godwinson and Edith Swan-Neck. The convent was crammed with Saxon princesses. Gunnhildr was looking for a way out of becoming a nun, so she ran away with him, but he died, so she married his brother Alan the Black instead! That's almost my favourite thing about medieval history - the names.....

The thing is that all those princesses were described as beautiful, but you can see from her portrait that Elizabeth Woodville really was. She was the Angelina Jolie of queens, and a natural for the red carpet.

Saddest and most pathetic was Isabelle of France, Richard II's second wife. Poor little girl.....

Least known - Adeliza of Louvain.

[prendrelemick]

I seem to remember that William (the bastard)I, had a "Good" and a "Devil" among his ancestors. That must really mess with your head.

Two queens who must've been absolute stunners were Elizabeth Woodville as mentioned, and Anne Boleyn. Both were wooed and married by Kings against all the best advice. This makes me think that Elizabeth I must've been a looker too, as the above ladies were her Mother and Great Grandma.


I certainly haven't heard of Adeliza.

I hesitate to use the words most ugly when referring to Queens, but Anne of Cleaves and Caroline of Brunswick could be strong contenders.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

...This makes me think that Elizabeth I must've been a looker too,...

We were taught that after her death, approximately 1/2 inch of make up "shell" was removed from her face.
I believe it was 7th grade history class taught by the baseball coach.

[prendrelemick]

^Every woman needs a little help now and then.

[Zaza]

Imagine if you were going to marry a guy already known as 'the Bad' Gulp.

I think there was a someone 'the Impotent' but maybe it's a mad delusion.....

Despite her beautiful forebears, Elizabeth I certainly wasn't a beauty in her portraits.

Anne of Cleves looks not bad in the Holbein portrait, but I think he painted her full face on to improve things.

Adeliza was the second wife of Henry I, he of the 23 children. She was meant to help him have a son to replace the 'White Ship' one, but they never had children, and of course she got the blame, 'cos how could it be him when he already had the 23?. After his death, she married an English nobleman for love and they had 9 children, 'tho she didn't start till she was in her mid-thirties. So there you are - 32 children and not one together.

Charles the Rash of Burgundy - there must be loads of others.....

[tonywalt]

I don't know - Liz I, sure I would have dated her.

[prendrelemick]

Imagine if you were going to marry a guy already known as 'the Bad' Gulp.

I think there was a someone 'the Impotent' but maybe it's a mad delusion.....

Despite her beautiful forebears, Elizabeth I certainly wasn't a beauty in her portraits.

Anne of Cleves looks not bad in the Holbein portrait, but I think he painted her full face on to improve things.Adeliza was the second wife of Henry I, he of the 23 children. She was meant to help him have a son to replace the 'White Ship' one, but they never had children, and of course she got the blame, 'cos how could it be him when he already had the 23?. After his death, she married an English nobleman for love and they had 9 children, 'tho she didn't start till she was in her mid-thirties. So there you are - 32 children and not one together.

Charles the Rash of Burgundy - there must be loads of others.....


And that led to more trouble, Henry was shown the portrait of Anne and liked what he saw. He was so ardent he galloped out to meet her off the ship. However the portrait was a bit too flattering. The dissapointed Henry said the real thing had a face like a horse! Posterity doesn't tell us what she thought of him.

So our Queenly dating agency is nothing new, neither are photoshopped pictures.



I think the young Liz was bright and beautiful.

[Nick Capozzoli]

You can look at the skeleton they dug up on-line. DNA analysis was done (checking against known descendants) and it looks like
the skeleton is Richard's. The skeleton also shows a scoliotic spine, consistent with what is believed to be Richard's deformity.

Looks like he also was mutilated after death....e.g. limbs cut off. I guess that such
post-mortem treatment indicates that those who killed him were not inclined to show
much respect for his body...

So, yes, it is probably the skeleton of that King...

It will be interesting to see what they do with the skeletal remains.

[prendrelemick]

If you think about it it is obvious that he would have a "crookback" the Tudors couldn't have started a false rumour like that when there were loads of people still around who knew him.

Let's say Thomas Moore's History of Richard III was the main source for Shakespeare's play. ( I'm playing at "what if" here.) Moore wrote it less than thirty years or so after Richard died. In other words he was his contempory, and most of his readers would be too. So Moore couldn't say he was hunch-backed if he wasn't.


It may be true that no one mentioned it while he was King. But it just goes to show that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Zaza]

Thomas More also said he had a withered arm. He would have found it a bit difficult to fight in all those battles if he really had all these physical problems. Laurence Olivier gave him a limp as well.

The point of describing him in this way was that to writers of that era, outward deformity was a reflection of inner evil. At the very least, they exaggerated for their purposes. As for not being able to make it up because there were people around who still knew him, it was a new era and they could say what they liked.

More wasn't his contemporary anyway. He was about three years old when the usurpation happened.

[OrphanPip]

From what I heard about the skeleton, it seems the scoliosis would only have shown when he had his shirt off, most of the time it wouldn't have been obvious to anyone that he had any sort of physical abnormality. I think the popular explanation for the rumour was that the scoliosis was discovered after his death, and then the humpback thing became more exaggerated over time.

[Paulclem]

i wondered about his reconstructured face. It seems to be scientific, and based upon muscle depth etc etc, but i wonder if it will become discredited. It would depend upon the amount of subjective input from the craftsman/ artist. The question is, were they influenced by knowledge of his portraits?

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?hl=en&safe=off&biw=1344&bih=626&tbm=isch&tbnid=iM_xk-Uteo7n_M:&imgrefurl=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9505737/Have-archaeologists-found-church-where-Richard-III-was-buried.html&docid=bKZWFxocLB8NsM&imgurl=http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02318/King-Richard-III_2318258b.jpg&w=620&h=387&ei=tNdAUbz6E9KW0QXOsICIDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=827&vpy=316&dur=1874&hovh=177&hovw=284&tx=143&ty=101&page=1&tbnh=131&tbnw=210&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:0,i:178

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?hl=en&safe=off&biw=1344&bih=626&tbm=isch&tbnid=D4pPhZtVFNTOjM:&imgrefurl=http://bbb-news.com/blog/2013/02/24/richard-iiis-ancestors-demand-york-burial-nine-of-his-descendants-oppose-plans-to-bury-him-at-leicester-cathedral-next-year/&docid=w7ez9LmId82_BM&imgurl=http://bbb-news.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/RSSPoster_PRO/cache/993d1_article-2283982-175C96DF000005DC-431_306x423.jpg&w=306&h=423&ei=tNdAUbz6E9KW0QXOsICIDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=733&vpy=115&dur=15&hovh=264&hovw=191&tx=82&ty=174&page=1&tbnh=160&tbnw=116&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0,i:154

[OrphanPip]

If you want to talk about ugly monarchs, the Habsburgs probably take the cake. They were so inbred that their prognasthism (that is a severe underbite) reached such extreme levels that some of them couldn't close their mouths!

[prendrelemick]

Thomas More also said he had a withered arm. He would have found it a bit difficult to fight in all those battles if he really had all these physical problems. Laurence Olivier gave him a limp as well.

The point of describing him in this way was that to writers of that era, outward deformity was a reflection of inner evil. At the very least, they exaggerated for their purposes. As for not being able to make it up because there were people around who still knew him, it was a new era and they could say what they liked.

More wasn't his contemporary anyway. He was about three years old when the usurpation happened.



Its like saying Hitler only had one b*ll.

[prendrelemick]

If you want to talk about ugly monarchs, the Habsburgs probably take the cake. They were so inbred that their prognasthism (that is a severe underbite) reached such extreme levels that some of them couldn't close their mouths!



I know some people like that!


Whisper it quietly, but our current Queen elect Camilla is a lovely person, but not beautiful in the classic sense.

[Zaza]

I believe one of the last Hapsburgs had severe physical disabilities, due of course to all the intermarriage. The last Hapsburg monarch before the line died out was married to his niece (yuck)!

In the Middle Ages, one in four aristocratic families died out in every generation because of endogamy. Even very prolific families, such as the Nevilles, would reach a point where couples either had no children or couldn't have sons. Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmorland, grandfather of Warwick the Kingmaker, had twenty-six children from two marriages, but Warwick himself got his title from marrying a sole heiress, and had two daughters.

Their obsession with 'keeping the blood pure' was, as we now know, a very bad idea genetically. They hardly ever married someone they weren't related to, with predictable consequences.

Katherine of Aragon's sister, Juana la Loca - ' Joanna the Mad' - highly suggestive, if unscientific.

[Calidore]

Whisper it quietly, but our current Queen elect Camilla is a lovely person, but not beautiful in the classic sense.

"Queen elect"?

[prendrelemick]

"Queen elect"?


Chosen for office though not yet installed.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

"Queen elect"?

I'll second Calidore's question.
Mick you'll have to clarify for the Colonists

edit - nevermind you beat me to it.

[prendrelemick]

Here she is.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/B/Camilla-Parker-Bowles-9542218-1-402.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.biography.com/people/camilla-parker-bowles-9542218&h=224&w=224&sz=1&tbnid=Oy_RXD-B-50vbM:&tbnh=160&tbnw=160&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dduchess%2Bof%2Bcornwall%26tbm%3Disch% 26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=duchess+of+cornwall&usg=__cgDRUt7fuv5FIdRB3FSaKMeMPY8=&docid=S8fDCR9T3RxLgM&itg=1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UEBCUdv9Hc7WPbiqgJAL&ved=0CKABEPwdMBI


Edit; Though she may not actually take the title "Queen".

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Here she is.
...
Edit; Though she may not actually take the title "Queen".

Yes; I had just finished a quick read up and it sounds like she is not...preferred shall we say?

[prendrelemick]

She should have the title, it is her right. you can't just say "Daily Mail readers liked Diana better so you can't be Queen"

Another lady who had similar problems was Caroline of Brunswick, but it was her husband George who didn't like her - infact he hated her. At his coronation he left strict orders she was not to be admitted. She turned up antway and was left outside on the street, hammering on the door demanding to be let in!

Shortly after she did the one thing that assured the British public's sympathy and regard - she died.

[OrphanPip]

She should have the title, it is her right. you can't just say "Daily Mail readers liked Diana better so you can't be Queen"

Another lady who had similar problems was Caroline of Brunswick, but it was her husband George who didn't like her - infact he hated her. At his coronation he left strict orders she was not to be admitted. She turned up antway and was left outside on the street, hammering on the door demanding to be let in!

Shortly after she did the one thing that assured the British public's sympathy and regard - she died.

To be fair to George, he was already married to Fitzherbet when Parliament forced him to marry Caroline. Unfortunately, since Fitzherbert was a Catholic the marriage was considered invalid, though they didn't have an exactly ideal relationship either.

[Zaza]

One of George IV's courtiers brought him the news of the death of Napoleon. He said, 'Sire, your greatest enemy is dead'. The king replied, 'Is she, by God!'.

[prendrelemick]

To be fair to George, he was already married to Fitzherbet when Parliament forced him to marry Caroline. Unfortunately, since Fitzherbert was a Catholic the marriage was considered invalid, though they didn't have an exactly ideal relationship either.


Caroline used to refer to the King as "Mr Fitzherbet" in order to annoy him.


One of George IV's courtiers brought him the news of the death of Napoleon. He said, 'Sire, your greatest enemy is dead'. The king replied, 'Is she, by God!'.

Haha!

[prendrelemick]

The next catagory should be the most independant and capable Queen. Someone who was more than just a breeding machine, who wore the trousers and kept her wimpish king in order.

[Emil Miller]

The next catagory should be the most independant and capable Queen. Someone who was more than just a breeding machine, who wore the trousers and kept her wimpish king in order.


Wallis Simpson.

[Janine]

Interesting thread.

[prendrelemick]

I was thinking of Isabella the "She-Wolf of France", who was Ed II's Queen. She soon got rid of him (She actually led an army against him,) and set up shop with Roger Mortimer her lover.

If the beguiling Wallis Simpson had become Queen I wonder what her nick-name would be.

[Emil Miller]

I was thinking of Isabella the "She-Wolf of France", who was Ed II's Queen. She soon got rid of him (She actually led an army against him,) and set up shop with Roger Mortimer her lover.

If the beguiling Wallis Simpson had become Queen I wonder what her nick-name would be.

I hate to think of it but it would probably have been Wally. Anyhow, that's slightly better than Edward's friend and best man at his wedding, 'Fruity' Metcalfe. An interesting item from Fruity's past is given in Wikipedia.

'With his wife he attended meetings of the January Club (as well as a Fascist Blackshirt dinner at London's Savoy Hotel in May 1934), of which he was a member.'

[prendrelemick]

That was a wedding I'd've liked to've gone to (or the party afterwards). I think the wags of the day were ready to call her King Wallis the first. In fact like Richard III the suceeding dynasty did a knocking job on them, Queen Elizabeth ( later The Queen Mother) took great pleasure in "cutting" her and would not have them in the same country. They were all but banished and rumours abounded that she was really a man! Plus ca change and all that.

What was the January Club ? Was it like that Bullingden Club that some of our glorious leaders belonged to.

[Emil Miller]

That was a wedding I'd've liked to've gone to (or the party afterwards). I think the wags of the day were ready to call her King Wallis the first. In fact like Richard III the suceeding dynasty did a knocking job on them, Queen Elizabeth ( later The Queen Mother) took great pleasure in "cutting" her and would not have them in the same country. They were all but banished and rumours abounded that she was really a man! Plus ca change and all that.

What was the January Club ? Was it like that Bullingden Club that some of our glorious leaders belonged to.

It's true that they were banished, but sitting it out in the Bahamas while the bombs were falling on England seems like a better option.
It's no secret that after meeting him, Edward was impressed with Der Führer and Germany's stupendous recovery from destitution while
the British empire was at the point of collapse. Wallis Simpson was said to have slept with Ribbentrop the German Ambassador but it's most likely to have been a bit of black propaganda by MI5.

The Bullingdon Club was rather a collection of naughty boys and not to be confused with the January Club, as shown below:

'The January Club was a discussion group founded in 1934 by Oswald Mosley to attract Establishment support for the movement known as the British Union of Fascists.

The Club was under the effective control of Robert Forgan, working on behalf of the BUF. The founders as identified by MI5 were Forgan, Donald Makrill, Francis Yeats-Brown and H. W. Luttman-Johnson.
Members of the January Club included Wing-Commander Sir Louis Greig; Lord Erskine, a Conservative and Unionist MP and assistant Government whip; Lord William Montagu-Douglas-Scott, brother of the 8th Duke of Buccleuch and Conservative and Unionist MP; and Lord and Lady Russell of Liverpool.'

[Zaza]

Documentary on Channel 4 tonight (Sat 16th), at 7pm, 'Churchill and the Fascist Plot' - about the Right Club, fifth columnists working to make an alliance with Nazi Germany and bring down the government.

[Emil Miller]

Reading some of the google entries concerning Edward VIII and Mrs Simpson is rather like reading a cross between P G Wodehouse and the Marquis de Sade but one revealing item shows the state of play vis-a-vis US and British relations during the pre-war period:

Relations between the United Kingdom and the United States were strained during the inter-war years and the majority of Britons were reluctant to accept an American as queen consort. At the time, some members of the British upper class looked down on Americans with disdain and considered them socially inferior. In contrast, the American public was clearly in favour of the marriage, as was most of the American press.

[prendrelemick]

It was the two divorces that was the main problem, especially as she divorced her second husband in order to marry Edward (or David as he was known).

She began the affair at the request of his lover - who was a friend of hers - and was going away for a bit, she asked Wallis to "Look after the little man"while she was gone. Wallis agreed and asked another of her friends to "look after" her husband while she was "looking after" David. It's never like that on Downton Abbey!

Remember when Prince Andrew wanted to marry Koo Stark? She was deemed unsuitable too, though not because she was an American called Koo - but because she had appeared naked in a film. (the awakening of Emily...look it up yourself.)

[prendrelemick]

Richard has emerged once more into the media.

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2013/03/richard-iiis-reburial-has-reignited-facebook-wars-roses


http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2013/03/new-evidence-was-richard-iii-guilty-murdering-princes-tower

No one does wittering quite like the English middle classes.

[Zaza]

War has broken out again over Richard III. They found him, a historical mystery has been solved, but are Richard fans happy bunnies? No. I think this one will run and run.

As for Amy Licence's 'new evidence' about the deaths of the Princes in the Tower, I'm not sure it amounts to much, but I am looking forward to seeing what her new biography of Anne Neville will be like, given the very limited amount of information there is about her. Another candidate for least-known Queen.

[prendrelemick]

.........

[prendrelemick]

Just read an article that mentioned Richard's marriage to Anne Neville was more advantageous for him than her. He was the third son in an insecure monarchy. Because of his deformity he was banned from becoming a priest - which might have been his first choice as he was a devout man. Anne legitamised his Lordship of the North.

[Zaza]

Richard III's marriage to Anne Neville was greatly to his advantage, because it gained him the loyalty of her father Warwick the Kingmaker's followers. They became 'his men' so to speak. He and his brother Clarence behaved less than ethically when they carved up the Warwick lands between them, including lands which rightly belonged to Warwick's widow, Duchess Isabel. This was achieved by declaring her legally dead! She was stashed away in a nunnery, living on a pittance. Anne's 'affinity' was also crucial for Richard when it came to the usurpation.

[prendrelemick]

Here come the lawyers! Richard III's ancestors (14 of them) have asked for a Judicial Review ( whatever that is) of the arrangements for his reburial. They want him in York. Liecester are going to keep him at all costs

Couldn't we just have a good old fashioned battle to sort it out? It'd be cheaper and more fitting.

[kasie]

Looks like they may have found King Alfred. News item on South Today reported that an exhumation had taken place at a churchyard in Winchester and bones removed for archaeological forensic investigation. Apparently a nineteenth century archaeologist had been excavating nearby Hyde Abbey where Alfred is said to have been buried, came upon the bones and asked the then incumbent of St Bartholomew's if he would rebury them in his quiet little churchyard as 'they may be the remains of King Alfred'. The work was undertaken very quietly at the weekend without any prior announcement as the authorities did not want the world and his press descending on the place with all the ballyhoo that Richard's exhumation caused.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Here come the lawyers! Richard III's ancestors (14 of them) have asked for a Judicial Review ( whatever that is) of the arrangements for his reburial. They want him in York. Liecester are going to keep him at all costs

Couldn't we just have a good old fashioned battle to sort it out? It'd be cheaper and more fitting.

I think someone joked a few posts back about splitting him up, but that may in fact be the only option short of another battle of Bosworth.
I'm guessing the spine would be split by equal number of vertebrae, skull cut in half?
St. Cataherine's head was smuggled out of Rome and brought back to Siena while the rest of her remains in Rome.

[prendrelemick]

If we could find Henry I as well then we could have a share-out of all the bones. Two of Richard's ribs, Henry's pelvis and Alfred's fibia to York, Henry's skull, Richard's spine and Alfred's patella To Liecester - and so on. All the spare bits and pieces could go on tour, a leg here a radius there.


There is a stately home near here that has the head of an ancestor in a niche. It was rescued from London bridge where it was on display after he was executed for treason during the Jacobean rebellion. A faithfull servant took a cart down to London, drove onto the bridge reached up and grabbed the head as he passed beneath and returned it to his widow. A brave act, had he been caught he would've joined his master on display.

[Zaza]

It's a bit ridiculous for the descendants of Richard III to take legal action over an ancestor they didn't even know they had until recently. And now there are fourteen of them! There were only two a couple of months back. I'm not sure exactly what a judicial review is, but I bet it doesn't come cheap. I hope they're paying for the lawyers themselves.

One solution would be for the cathedral clergy of York Minster and Leicester Cathedral to fight it out. The medieval king burial rights smackdown. I'd watch that.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Another option is to compromise and bury him at a midpoint between Leicester and York.
I'd suggest Sheffield.

[prendrelemick]

Of the three or four solutions offered up on here, I think Zaza's is best. It has the merit of honesty and openness. However John Sentimu the Archbishop is too much a man of peace I fear, he would probably start blessing his opponents.. offering his other cheek and the like.

[Zaza]

York Minster would probably like Richard III's body as much as Leicester, but they will conceal ruthless competitiveness behind a facade of Christian beneficence, Sentamu-style.

[prendrelemick]

On telly now (BBC1) The White Queen. The story of Elizabeth Woodville, as discussed above.





Oh Gawd, it's a soap.

[Zaza]

'The White Queen' - didn't expect a great deal, as the books by Philippa Gregory are pretty pedestrian. Done with a very broad brush and no feel for the period. There is a good drama to be made about the Wars of the Roses, but this isn't it. Having said that, I'll keep on watching.....

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

King Alfred the Great's pelvic bone.
Mick, it's likely you're now waking up to this...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/10579315/King-Alfred-the-Great-bones-believed-to-be-in-box-found-in-museum.html

[cacian]

On telly now (BBC1) The White Queen. The story of Elizabeth Woodville, as discussed above.





Oh Gawd, it's a soap.

LOL terrible is it not. I feel sometimes most of the stories showcased on tv are all made up for effect. I cannot believe everything they say about these famous people.
for example everytime I read about an author or a poet they all seem to have had a tempestuous life relationship wise affairs and what not. One that comes to mind is Byron. I find his life rather written for a novel or a tv soap.

[prendrelemick]

The best comment so far about the significance of Alfred's newly discovered bone. "This tells us that Alfred the Great is dead and that he had a pelvis."

[cacian]

The best comment so far about the significance of Alfred's newly discovered bone. "This tells us that Alfred the Great is dead and that he had a pelvis."

haha that is a great sentiment indeed. where would be without a pelvis?