Trying my hand at Sonnets. Let me know what you think.

[JackReeling]

Sonnet 8
“Youth and Nature”

Saruman’s industry burns with fury
Smith’s economy our apparent bible
That has lead us to consider constant inquiry
Of what more options will prove not viable

Open thine eyes, O God fearers!
Which’er sect to which you belong
We can improve maybe; quell the tears
If only Nature could tell you you’re wrong

My toes wiggle in murky water
Nothing more pure than this scene
Except for my mother and father
Each passing day destroys much of the serene.

I think Dickens and Carlyle would oblige
To help keep our beloved Ents alive.

[hillwalker]

Um ? - since none of it makes sense it's difficult to provide any constructive criticism.

And I think you meant 'led' not 'lead' in line 3.

H

[JackReeling]

Well you are right about "led" versus "lead" in line 3, that's definitely a typo. For that I apologize. You are also entitled to your opinion, so if it doesn't make sense to you that's fine. Though I would encourage you to instead ask questions about things that are confusing, or at least try to make sense of what you read. I posted this to get feedback, and if you don't have any, then don't comment. Disliking something is one thing, being pretentious is another.

[Calidore]

Well you are right about "led" versus "lead" in line 3, that's definitely a typo. For that I apologize. You are also entitled to your opinion, so if it doesn't make sense to you that's fine. Though I would encourage you to instead ask questions about things that are confusing, or at least try to make sense of what you read. I posted this to get feedback, and if you don't have any, then don't comment. Disliking something is one thing, being pretentious is another.

"None of it makes sense" is feedback, and an invitation for you as the author to offer some guidance. It's kind hard to ask specific questions if the work as a whole draws a blank.

Soliciting comments and then inviting the commenter (in this case, one who spends a great deal of his time offering constructive criticism here) not to comment, plus being insulting to boot, makes even less sense. Were you looking for honest feedback or just praise? If the latter, you should be clear about that up front, to protect your toes from being stepped on.

[Gladys]

My toes wiggle in murky water
Nothing more pure than this scene

I haven't read Tolkien and know little of economics but I get the gist of your poem, with a little help from Google. And I visited Thomas Carlisle's house in London back in 1998.

I am a little puzzled by the quote. Is the water murky because the poet's toes are wiggling? If so, murky and pure seem to contradict.

[JackReeling]

"None of it makes sense" is feedback, and an invitation for you as the author to offer some guidance. It's kind hard to ask specific questions if the work as a whole draws a blank.

Soliciting comments and then inviting the commenter (in this case, one who spends a great deal of his time offering constructive criticism here) not to comment, plus being insulting to boot, makes even less sense. Were you looking for honest feedback or just praise? If the latter, you should be clear about that up front, to protect your toes from being stepped on.

First off, I was not just looking for praise, so now I've cleared that up. And my issue with the other commenter was that he didn't seem to "spend a great deal of time offering constructive criticism," if he wasn't going to even try to ask a question. To write something off as just nonsensical led me to believe that he didn't spend much time with the poem.
As far as my poem goes, the overall message is that Capitalism has been destroying nature over time. The allusions to Lord of the Rings(Saruman/Ents) are because I am a nerd, and also because Saruman destroys the forest to fuel his war machine, so there's a connection to Capitalism there. Smith is an allusion to Adam Smith, who's considered the founder of free market economics. The mentioning of Charles Dickens and Thomas Carlysle was because they were two writers who wrote against the Industrial Revolution.
The part about "my toes wiggle in murky water..." was to create the image that water has become more polluted since the days of my mother and father. Gladys, I think you're right that "murky" and "pure" seem to contradict; I'll probably experiment with other words there to make it more clear.

[hillwalker]

Trying my hand at a sonnet. Let me know what you think.

That's what I did.
Pretentious? In what way? I merely said that it didn't make sense so I couldn't offer much in the way of constructive criticism. That's hardly a conceited reaction.


And my issue with the other commenter was that he didn't seem to "spend a great deal of time offering constructive criticism," if he wasn't going to even try to ask a question. To write something off as just nonsensical led me to believe that he didn't spend much time with the poem.

You're right. I didn't spend much time with the poem. If a poem doesn't strike me as worth a second look I tend to move on. It probably says more about your poem than about me as a reader.

I have read Tolkien so I recognise the name Saruman and the Ents but in this context I couldn't see a connection. I have also heard of Adam Smith, but the Smith in this poem could refer to anyone with the same surname despite the mention of 'economy'. You're expecting far too much of any reader to make such a leap in logic. And if a reader has to ask the poet what their poem is supposed to be about then the poem isn't working.

That has led us to consider constant inquiry
Of what more options will prove not viable
is not particularly lyrical or poetic - in fact it's rather clunky.

And I'm curious why you suddenly lapse into such an archaic style as this:
Open thine eyes, O God fearers!
Which’er sect to which you belong

My toes wiggle in murky water
Nothing more pure than this scene
I might have figured out that this part was about pollution - but there's nothing preceding to suggest that this a poem about the way we abuse the planet. And Except for my mother and father is frankly odd.

The idea behind the poem might be well intentioned but it's not especially well written. You obviously have all the contexts worked out in your head so it makes crystal clear sense to you. But I think your ambition to cover so much ground means it's all spread so thinly that it becomes baffling rather than enlightening.

H

[JackReeling]

This is much better feedback than just saying "it doesn't make sense." I appreciate that you took the time to go back and give me specific feedback that I can actually use. Like you mentioned, "...so it makes crystal clear sense to you," I assumed too much from my reader; thinking that he/she would be able to know exactly what I was trying to say, when in reality it was too confusing. This is why there was a need for specific feedback, though, since it does make sense to me I need people to let me know exactly which parts are confusing.

[JCamilo]

I really thought the references were obvious and really, a reader will only know exactly when the writer is trying to say when the writer is Paulo Coelho.

Anyways, I think you did too much references and they do not conect so easily (Tolkien's fictional characters, one economist, two english writers) and maybe, just maybe, the format of sonnet asks for more lyrical approach and your poem is too straightfoward.

[miyako73]

Form-wise, can you really call a piece a sonnet even though it has different meters in some lines? Can you, in a sonnet, mix iambic pentameter and iambic hexameter or eleven syllables in a line and thirteen syllables in a line? Does the uniform metering structure of a sonnet breakable?

I ask these questions because I am not a sonneter.

[JackReeling]

Those are good form questions, no doubt, and I am also not an expert when it comes to sonnets. I know that every sonnet must have 14 total lines, 3 stanzas with 4 lines each and a couplet to complete the poem. As far as meter goes, I think it should be consistent, but I'm not sure if it ceases to be a sonnet or not once the consistency of the meter is compromised. This sonnet is a work in progress and I know my meter is inconsistent, but I'm not sure what the exact rules are.

[Gladys]

The part about "my toes wiggle in murky water..." was to create the image that water has become more polluted since the days of my mother and father. Gladys, I think you're right that "murky" and "pure" seem to contradict; I'll probably experiment with other words there to make it more clear.

I'm still unclear on the meaning of "Nothing more pure than this scene...Each passing day destroys much of the serene." Do you actually mean, "Nothing more pure than this scene was, in my childhood long ago"?

[JackReeling]

I'm still unclear on the meaning of "Nothing more pure than this scene...Each passing day destroys much of the serene." Do you actually mean, "Nothing more pure than this scene was, in my childhood long ago"?

Basically, I'm trying to say that there's nothing more pure than nature, though "Each passing day..." is trying to illustrate that as time progresses, so to does the contamination of nature. So you are right in thinking that the scene was more pure when I was a child, and the line about my mother and father was to illustrate that it was even more pure in generations past.

[firefangled]

I am not an expert at sonnets either, and I have read multiple variations on the traditional 2 or 3. There is nothing wrong with writing a sonnet to "try my hand at sonnets," but you might investigate more into the purpose of using the form, other than to put a poem in 14 lines of any acceptable meter for a sonnet.

The name means "little song." So, are you intending to create a song-like poem, or write a poem against the traditional form (if so, why should become evident at some point). Youth and nature would surely lend themselves to this form and there are plenty of examples of sonnets to read and see how the form is applied to the theme.

It seems you have not given the subject matter, nor the poem about it as much thought as it deserves; the change in diction in S2 makes this clear. The reader of both Tolkien and your poem can assume that maybe S2 is a throwback to one of the elfin songs in LOTR trilogy, but the poem is too short to do this effectively.

As has been said over and over by many in this forum, you have to read what you want to learn to write, and it doesn't come easy; and it doesn't work in your favor to be defensive. It doesn't happen often in this forum where criticism is leveled wsuperfluouslous purposes. Most efforts here that appear to have taken some effort and time are well respected, even if the criticism is harsh.

Best of luck in your writing.

[miyako73]

"wsuperfluouslous"

Comments should be reread, corrected, and edited too to be taken seriously.

[firefangled]

"superfluous"

Comments should be reread, corrected, and edited too to be taken seriously.

That is something that has been happening with my keyboard, I think. It only does it in free text boxes. You're correct, I should have caught that. So disregard everything else that I said. I meant superfluous.