Aujourd’hui, maman est morte

[Kyriakos]

“Aujourd’hui, maman est morte.” Well, not quite. It is my father who is nearing death. Found in some hospital, he seems to be slowly slipping away from the world. I think he had a bad life, most of it his own making, and now will have inevitably a bad death as well. Around him are the members of his new family, and my sister, but i am not there and probably won't visit at all.

My relationship with my father- or my mother- was horrible since i was very young, triggered possibly most of all by their respective hatred of each other. Later on they divorced, and the old issue did not disappear. Now it seems the book on one of them is about to close, and only edited versions of its passages, or translations, will be possible anymore after that.

I felt like asking if any of you had a parent pass away, and Charon already having carried the remains past the river Acheron, your mind focused on the past relationship you shared, in a different way due to the closing fate.

Do not post any antagonisms or cheap reproaches; i am only interested in the views of people who dealt with similar to some degree relationships.

I guess there will be no replies though, which i will decipher in a positive way.

[cacian]

So sorry to hear it.
The title caught because I speak French. May I ask why maman et pas papa in the title?

[Scheherazade]

It is the opening line of The Stranger by Camus.

I am sorry to hear about your dilemma and challenges you face at a time like this, Ky.

One rarely finds answers but only more questions. Hope you can put them to rest, answer or no answer.

Take care.

[caddy_caddy]

I and my father were two enemies . But during his sickness I used to take care of him and during that time I discovered how much I love him. Sometimes hatred is the other face of love. The more you love someone, the more you hate him.
During his last months we became two friends and he was happy I was next to him.
I am happy I forgave him before he died and he forgave me too although we never said this to each other explicitly.
He died with a smile on his face.

[cacian]

It is the opening line of The Stranger by Camus.

Thank you Scher. I wondered why in reference to dad however. It is not clear.

[Scheherazade]

Thank you Scher. I wondered why in reference to dad however. It is not clear.He is simply quoting Camus?

[Kyriakos]

@caddy_caddy, good for you, i am happy it worked that way. I don't think this is possible for me, since the person has been a burn-out for generally all of his 7 decades in this world. I do not doubt he loves me, in his twisted way, but i do not love him, at least not in any non-twisted way either. Generally same with my mother.

@cacian: i was thinking that the title would work in various ways. Likening myself to Mersault for example. Or echoing the analogous relationship to my mother. Or act as a castration of the misery those two people brought in my life.

My sister went to the hospital, was faced for the first time with his new family, and he did not speak but one word to her, whose meaning was that he will see her later. I am resolved to not go. In fact i feel pity for those other children.

[Lokasenna]

My sympathies, Ky.

It's not the same thing, but I kind of know how it feels. We had a family friend who I hated - and I mean that in a completely literal sense, as in the absolute antithesis of love. He ended up living with us for several years, and I watched him die a long, slow, painful and undignified death - and it gave me no satisfaction whatsoever. I think, by the end, I was able to forgive him for the things he did to me, and I suspect I would not have found the capacity for that forgiveness had it not been for his illness.

Whatever happens in your case, you must face it on your own terms.

[Kyriakos]

Thank you Loka, although i am not sure i am well-placed to receive sympathies.
I do not really want to arrive there, have to meet my siblings which i never saw before, and have this person dieing horribly as he seems to do. He failed at pretty much everything in this world. Is the type of the man who perpetually is stuck in early elementary school, with the hatred, plotting, and angry demeanor that usually characterizes some children of that age. To this day i cannot say i really know much about him. I do know that he is broken-down, and was since i knew him.
A failed parent, a failed man in general. Come to think of it, only thing he managed to do in this world was to collect considerable amounts of money, and then torment others through whatever power those granted to him. A horrible epitaph, but a man with no reproaches, or at least no reproaches that ever amounted to change, was bound to end up horribly.

I am sure his wife is equally horrible. She already gave that impression to my sister. Another broken-down being, and i do not even want to wonder how his other children will fair.

[DocHeart]

Dear Κυριάκο,

I'm not in the same place as you. My parents are both very old and quite ill, but for the time being still managing to live in their own home -- with the help of a carer, of course. But thoughts of their passing are now more justified than ever, especially for my mother, whose Alzheimer's is now in the terminal stages.

I have my own grievances as far as they're concerned, but yours are in an entirely different league -- much more serious. However, if we were close friends having a beer together, I would urge you to go and see your old man and say goodbye to him. Not so that he feels better, but in order for you to fulfill your potential as a bigger, better person than he was. As for the people that will surround him and you during that goodbye, you shouldn't give a damn. This is between you and your father. Take the chance to close the relationship properly: he's on his way out, but you've still got a long time to live with things you do or don't do.

I know I've quoted this poem (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/178055) many times, but none so fitting an occasion as this one, my friend.

I apologize if I've spoken out of turn, and wish you strength.

Regards,
DH

[cacian]

Thank you Loka, although i am not sure i am well-placed to receive sympathies.
I do not really want to arrive there, have to meet my siblings which i never saw before, and have this person dieing horribly as he seems to do. He failed at pretty much everything in this world. Is the type of the man who perpetually is stuck in early elementary school, with the hatred, plotting, and angry demeanor that usually characterizes some children of that age. To this day i cannot say i really know much about him. I do know that he is broken-down, and was since i knew him.
A failed parent, a failed man in general. Come to think of it, only thing he managed to do in this world was to collect considerable amounts of money, and then torment others through whatever power those granted to him. A horrible epitaph, but a man with no reproaches, or at least no reproaches that ever amounted to change, was bound to end up horribly.

I am sure his wife is equally horrible. She already gave that impression to my sister. Another broken-down being, and i do not even want to wonder how his other children will fair.

May I ask how old you are?

[liza]

I don’t understand why you are saying this .. in a forum .. you are saying bad things about your brother .. your father and bla bla .. instead of thinking that you should love more than ever people around you .. because all of us will die one day or another..
I think you are the kind of person .. who all his life had been selfish ..arrogant.. not listening and caring about the problems of other people .. thinking that you always will be young and powerful .. and suddenly one of your parent is about to die .. and suddenly you begin wondering . .who are my parents .. who are people around you .. and begin blaming all them .. like they are your enemy ..
In my country we say “ what you give is what you take”
Take care.

[YesNo]

Both of my parents have died. Neither of them could get around toward the end. Although I did not have any negative feelings toward them, I wish I could have done more, but there was nothing to do. Then I got the call that they died and I wondered why I didn't visit them one more time when I had the chance. I suggest you see your father for your own sake if not his before he dies even if it is unpleasant. Who knows what will happen?

I have photos of my parents when they were young. In particular a photo of my mother when she was about 14 that reminds me of my daughters. My father was about 25 in the earliest photo I have of him.

Here's a quote about forgiveness I ran into yesterday from this site http://www.jerryjampolsky.com/i/FORGIVENESS.pdf


Forgiveness means giving up all hopes for a better past.

I don't know much about the authors, but I thought the quote was nice.

[qimissung]

I'm sorry, Kyriakos, for your situation. It is one my son will face one day. His dad is the one who doesn't try, who broke his heart. I don't know what to say to him. He will have to find his own way to a sort of forgiveness. I hope for his sake that's what happens, because his anger hurts only himself, and his forgiveness will be the thing that heals.

I realize if you did go how horribly uncomfortable it would be. If you don't think you could go, maybe if you come to some feeling of peace with the situation, you could write a letter to your father expressing all your feelings. You don't even have to mail it.

Peace be with you.

[OrphanPip]

I don’t understand why you are saying this .. in a forum .. you are saying bad things about your brother .. your father and bla bla .. instead of thinking that you should love more than ever people around you .. because all of us will die one day or another..
I think you are the kind of person .. who all his life had been selfish ..arrogant.. not listening and caring about the problems of other people .. thinking that you always will be young and powerful .. and suddenly one of your parent is about to die .. and suddenly you begin wondering . .who are my parents .. who are people around you .. and begin blaming all them .. like they are your enemy ..
In my country we say “ what you give is what you take”
Take care.

Some parents are horrible people, if what you give is what you take, then sometimes ones parents do not deserve love.

[prendrelemick]

It's hard, but go and see him. For yourself. There is a good chance you'll regret it if you don't. Death is absolute and final, nothing that has gone on in the past counts anymore.

[caddy_caddy]

@caddy_caddy, good for you, i am happy it worked that way. I don't think this is possible for me, since the person has been a burn-out for generally all of his 7 decades in this world. I do not doubt he loves me, in his twisted way, but i do not love him, at least not in any non-twisted way either. Generally same with my mother.

@cacian: i was thinking that the title would work in various ways. Likening myself to Mersault for example. Or echoing the analogous relationship to my mother. Or act as a castration of the misery those two people brought in my life.

My sister went to the hospital, was faced for the first time with his new family, and he did not speak but one word to her, whose meaning was that he will see her later. I am resolved to not go. In fact i feel pity for those other children.

U know when I went to him , it was simply a matter of duty . I was not even thinking of him . I did it for the sake of my mother and my sister who are living with him and need help. I did it because to me " although I was convinced he didn't deserve it " it is the right thing to do.
I usually put my personal feelings aside and do some things I don't want to do but it's right to do.
It's not neccesary to work . Do it for yourself as some here said. He's leaving and u'll stay here with his memory.
Duties should not interfere with personal feelings.
He's your father and it's a fact u cannot ignore.
Do your duty to have a clear conscience ; it's not the right time to judge him anymore.

[liza]

I realized these days that there are people who live all their life .. emotionally depended by their parents .. no matter how old they are .. and no matter how much they love them .. or how good parents they were .. every single step they take in their life .. is related with their parents .. maybe it happens to all of us .. I don’t know .. .. I don’t know why it happens .. and mostly of them they are men ..

[caddy_caddy]

u
I realized these days that there are people who live all their life .. emotionally depended by their parents .. no matter how old they are .. and no matter how much they love them .. or how good parents they were .. every single step they take in their life .. is related with their parents .. maybe it happens to all of us .. I don’t know .. .. I don’t know why it happens .. and mostly of them they are men ..
And maybe this is a mistake.
I speak as a mother and as a daughter; Children expect too much of their parents ; they don't realize that parents have their problems too. As children we suffer because we don't understand " why " our parents are so and so .
The next mistake the parents do besides being bad parents is that they don't explain anything to their children.
Maybe that would help the children to understand and to suffer less.
Children have right to understand everything; this is the least thing we can do for them.

As for Kiryakos, I think he is much younger than me. If I were in his age I might have done the same thing.
It took me too much time to transcend the emotional basis of my relationship with my parents and to think of it in terms of moral duty only.

[Ecurb]

Some parents are horrible people, if what you give is what you take, then sometimes ones parents do not deserve love.

None of us "deserve" love. "For there is none righteous; no, not one." We enhance our lives by loving those who don't deserve it, and by being loved despite our own failings.

"Treat each man by his deserts and who would 'scape a whipping?" Hamlet

[liza]

None of us "deserve" love. "For there is none righteous; no, not one." We enhance our lives by loving those who don't deserve it, and by being loved despite our own failings.

"Treat each man by his deserts and who would 'scape a whipping?" Hamlet

I would agree with you finally .. I don't like it .. but for me.. until now.. it is like you said .. I hope not always and not forever .. and one day everyone find true love .. with one way or another .. :)


u
And maybe this is a mistake.
I speak as a mother and as a daughter; Children expect too much of their parents ; they don't realize that parents have their problems too. As children we suffer because we don't understand " why " our parents are so and so .
The next mistake the parents do besides being bad parents is that they don't explain anything to their children.
Maybe that would help the children to understand and to suffer less.
Children have right to understand everything; this is the least thing we can do for them.

As for Kiryakos, I think he is much younger than me. If I were in his age I might have done the same thing.
It took me too much time to transcend the emotional basis of my relationship with my parents and to think of it in terms of moral duty only.

I'm not a mother .. but I think the problem is .. where are the "borders" of this relationship with parents .. :) what is wrong .. what is right .. should we hate our parents .. what should we feel about them .. etc

[OrphanPip]

None of us "deserve" love. "For there is none righteous; no, not one." We enhance our lives by loving those who don't deserve it, and by being loved despite our own failings.

"Treat each man by his deserts and who would 'scape a whipping?" Hamlet

I think it is ridiculous and a little self-indulgent for someone to criticize others for not loving their parents. Why should anyone have a duty to not simply tolerate their parents, but actively display love and forgiveness towards them when no one would expect any such duty towards any other person who harmed you. Parents can not only be cruel to their children, they can abuse the love children naturally have for them. The idea that we enhance our lives by loving those who abuse us does not hold up under any serious scrutiny. We would not tell a battered wife unwilling to leave her husband that her life is enhanced by loving him.

[Ecurb]

I think it is ridiculous and a little self-indulgent for someone to criticize others for not loving their parents. Why should anyone have a duty to not simply tolerate their parents, but actively display love and forgiveness towards them when no one would expect any such duty towards any other person who harmed you. Parents can not only be cruel to their children, they can abuse the love children naturally have for them. The idea that we enhance our lives by loving those who abuse us does not hold up under any serious scrutiny. We would not tell a battered wife unwilling to leave her husband that her life is enhanced by loving him.

I'm not a Christian, but surely the Christian approach would be to love one's abuser, even if you also distanced yourself. This approach would not be limited to parents, of course, although the ten commandments suggests we honor them. Also, there are different kinds of "love". We can have good will for those we don't want to hang out with.

[OrphanPip]

I'm not a Christian, but surely the Christian approach would be to love one's abuser, even if you also distanced yourself. This approach would not be limited to parents, of course, although the ten commandments suggests we honor them. Also, there are different kinds of "love". We can have good will for those we don't want to hang out with.

And? None of that really addresses the fact that there is no reason to believe that "loving" an abuser would be healthy. More to the fact, given what has been said in this thread, that society should indeed pressure and stigmatize those who do not love an abuser; that there is something defective, selfish, or immoral about any individual who would dare to struggle with expectations that do not consider the subtleties and diversity of family relations.

Furthermore, if we begin to define love in terms of a lack of ill-will, or indeed somehow try to paradoxically resolve a relationship between love (in terms of agape) with a simultaneous dislike of someone (and from there can we resolve love with ongoing fear, abuse, or plain indifference), then love becomes a rather insignificant emotion.

[Ecurb]

And? None of that really addresses the fact that there is no reason to believe that "loving" an abuser would be healthy. More to the fact, given what has been said in this thread, that society should indeed pressure and stigmatize those who do not love an abuser; that there is something defective, selfish, or immoral about any individual who would dare to struggle with expectations that do not consider the subtleties and diversity of family relations.

Furthermore, if we begin to define love in terms of a lack of ill-will, or indeed somehow try to paradoxically resolve a relationship between love (in terms of agape) with a simultaneous dislike of someone (and from there can we resolve love with ongoing fear, abuse, or plain indifference), then love becomes a rather insignificant emotion.

Love (agape) is more than a lack of ill will. It involves the positive hope that the beloved will find peace and happiness. Although we are enjoined to love our enemies, we may be called upon to shoot them, depending on the circumstances.

Two thousand years of Christian philosophy has decreed this kind of love "significant". Perhaps it is not. However, love begets love, just as parents beget children. Seeds that may seem insignificant blossom into flowers.

I don't mean any personal criticism of anyone here. Circumstances differ. I'm simply making general comments.

[liza]

love abusers :)

[WyattGwyon]

I have lost three close family members including an older brother and my father. The only reason I might advise you to get involved is to support your sister (and other siblings?) if she is dealing with your father's new family as a lone "outsider." There may be value in sharing this experience with her, and if you can be of comfort to her in a difficult time (if indeed it is difficult for her) it may be worth enduring people you abhor.

[OrphanPip]

Love (agape) is more than a lack of ill will. It involves the positive hope that the beloved will find peace and happiness. Although we are enjoined to love our enemies, we may be called upon to shoot them, depending on the circumstances.

Two thousand years of Christian philosophy has decreed this kind of love "significant". Perhaps it is not. However, love begets love, just as parents beget children. Seeds that may seem insignificant blossom into flowers.

I don't mean any personal criticism of anyone here. Circumstances differ. I'm simply making general comments.

Again some pretty sweeping statements about what love can do that are little more than romantic drivel. Love begets love? Plenty of abused children love their abusers, and instead of breeding love this leads more to a sense of guilt and self-loathing over their own abuse.

The romantic notion of love (particularly when you think it is possible to separate it from any action or human interaction) being used here is nothing more than a pretty fantasy.

[Ecurb]

Again some pretty sweeping statements....

The romantic notion of love (particularly when you think it is possible to separate it from any action or human interaction) being used here is nothing more than a pretty fantasy.

You could say that ALL ideals about human behavior are, "Nothing more than a pretty fantasy." Surely pretty fantasies are better than ugly ones.

Besides, kiryakos said that his father loved him. Isn't that a reason to love the father, even if there are other issues which preclude a close relationship.

Is all love "romantic drivel"? Why "drivel"? You may not agree with Paul's advice to the Corinthians but no fan of literature would characterize it as "drivel."

[OrphanPip]

You could say that ALL ideals about human behavior are, "Nothing more than a pretty fantasy." Surely pretty fantasies are better than ugly ones.

You're just evading my point, that prescriptive statements about love, especially when they are used by people like lize to disparage the emotional experiences of others, are simply wrong. There is no demonstrable reason to think that loving someone who is harming you will always be good for you, and it is quite easy to come up with situations where loving a person can do you real harm.



Is all love "romantic drivel"? Why "drivel"? You may not agree with Paul's advice to the Corinthians but no fan of literature would characterize it as "drivel."

I didn't call love drivel, I called your ridiculous love song cliches about the power of love drivel.

[liza]

Did you say anything about me? I can't follow your discussion .. but I'm saying you .. that most people I know are loving someone who is abusing them or who abused them in the past :)) really ..

[Ecurb]

Ill grant that my cliches aren't as evocative as Paul's. However, there's no "demonstrable reason" to conclude that love (ipso facto) causes harm. Behaviors, sometimes associated with love, cause the harm. Love can cause pain -- but that's different.


What we see as harmful and beneficial is culturally constituted. Since Christian ideals have influenced our values, we see love as admirable and hatred or bitterness as pernicious. These values become self-fulfilling prophecies. Just as those who lie, cheat, steal or murder are harmed by their own behaviors, so are those who feel bitterness or hatred. Our need to justify these normally unacceptable feelings leads us to justify other nominally unacceptable feelings and behaviors. On the other hand, charitable feelings and behaviors lead to social and psychological rewards, that need no rationalization.

Of course there are complicated, gray areas. However, in general, socially and culturally accepted behaviors are rewarded; behaviors in conflict with accepted norms lead to cognitive dissonance and emotional trauma. What constitutes duty? I don't know. But I do know that we should respect its call, even if that call is traumatic for us.

[OrphanPip]

Ill grant that my cliches aren't as evocative as Paul's. However, there's no "demonstrable reason" to conclude that love (ipso facto) causes harm. Behaviors, sometimes associated with love, cause the harm. Love can cause pain -- but that's different.

This is pretty much a thinly veiled "no true scotsman" argument.



What we see as harmful and beneficial is culturally constituted. Since Christian ideals have influenced our values, we see love as admirable and hatred or bitterness as pernicious. These values become self-fulfilling prophecies. Just as those who lie, cheat, steal or murder are harmed by their own behaviors, so are those who feel bitterness or hatred. Our need to justify these normally unacceptable feelings leads us to justify other nominally unacceptable feelings and behaviors. On the other hand, charitable feelings and behaviors lead to social and psychological rewards, that need no rationalization.

Yet, as I have repeatedly said, charitable feelings and behaviours do not necessarily bring rewards. Moreover, criticizing others, and attempting to impose one's values on them, based on misguided romantic notions completely divorced from the lived experience is far more pernicious than any feelings of dislike for someone who has been horrible to you.

These views also require being blissfully unaware of what we know about modern psychology and a complete disregard for the subtleties of lived experiences. To say one should love their abuser is not only misguided, it's insulting to the abused.



Of course there are complicated, gray areas. However, in general, socially and culturally accepted behaviors are rewarded; behaviors in conflict with accepted norms lead to cognitive dissonance and emotional trauma. What constitutes duty? I don't know. But I do know that we should respect its call, even if that call is traumatic for us.

And now the social duty to love you admit could be traumatic, but yet somehow it is acceptable for people to impose trauma on others. How do you know we should respect that call? Why? Because you say so?

Your entire view amounts to little more than an arbitrary moral judgment.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

...Do not post any antagonisms or cheap reproaches; i am only interested in the views of people who dealt with similar to some degree relationships.

I guess there will be no replies though, which i will decipher in a positive way.

You apparently struck a chord given the number of replies Kyriakos.
I lost both of my parents while relatively young, before reaching the age of 30, although my relationship with them was quite different than yours, so I won't go there.
However, I can attest to the finality of death as my brother and sisters witnessed the last breath, so I strongly urge you to make that final call as difficult as it may be.

Regards.

[Ecurb]

This is pretty much a thinly veiled "no true scotsman" argument.



Yet, as I have repeatedly said, charitable feelings and behaviours do not necessarily bring rewards. Moreover, criticizing others, and attempting to impose one's values on them, based on misguided romantic notions completely divorced from the lived experience is far more pernicious than any feelings of dislike for someone who has been horrible to you.

These views also require being blissfully unaware of what we know about modern psychology and a complete disregard for the subtleties of lived experiences. To say one should love their abuser is not only misguided, it's insulting to the abused.



And now the social duty to love you admit could be traumatic, but yet somehow it is acceptable for people to impose trauma on others. How do you know we should respect that call? Why? Because you say so?

Your entire view amounts to little more than an arbitrary moral judgment.


And your "argument" (if we can dignify it with that word) is as mean spirited as it is ill expressed. No, as anyone familiar with Western thought would know, respect for one's parent is not due "because I said so" However, it is a fundamental tenet of traditional morality. You are free to poo poo tradition, but not to accuse me of inventing it.


Charitable feelings may or may not "bring rewards" (to borrow your trite phrase), but there are plenty of people (all Christians, for example) who think they do. I'll grant your ignorance about charity, however.

[OrphanPip]

And your "argument" (if we can dignify it with that word) is as mean spirited as it is ill expressed. No, as anyone familiar with Western thought would know, respect for one's parent is not due "because I said so" However, it is a fundamental tenet of traditional morality. You are free to poo poo tradition, but not to accuse me of inventing it.

Yes, it's quite mean-spirited of me to challenge the supposition that love is a magical panacea that can overcome all hardships, and that anyone who does not feel love for a parent, for whatever reason that may be, must immediately be self-absorbed and morally deficient. Your appeal to traditional morality is superficial anyway. Our society also grants that parents can be negligent and that parental rights are not supreme, they come with a duty to the child. If the child has a duty to the parent why would the child be expected to fulfill such a duty when the parent has already reneged on their part?



Charitable feelings may or may not "bring rewards" (to borrow your trite phrase), but there are plenty of people (all Christians, for example) who think they do. I'll grant your ignorance about charity, however.

My phrase is trite? You're the one who said charity begets "social and psychological rewards", I borrowed the phrase from you. Furthermore, I am challenging the gross generalizations you have made, not whether charity or love can be good for people, but rather the ridiculous notion that it is always good. Or even worse, the sanctimonious didactic pronouncements made that come loaded with the view that people who do not conform to this (without even getting into the issue of whether or not it is possible to will oneself into loving another) are morally defective. If I am mean-spirited for arguing this point, I don't know what that makes the person who judges the victim of abuse for their moral deficiency in not loving their abuser enough.

You sidestep the issue of connecting love as a concept to action, but if love is not action then it is an involuntary emotional state. If we want to say love is voluntary, and then we also want to say that it is not connected to action, then love is not very meaningful at all. What good is willing good things for others if you do nothing to contribute to the good of others? Something Catholic theology would agree with.

Edit: Just to reiterate, all I have argued for here is perspective on the idea that loving your parents is a moral duty. Loving and forgiving can very well be good most of the time, yet this is not universally true. What particularly upsets me is this idea that there is something lacking in someone who fails to live up to this duty, especially when that person is a victim of abuse. It is a rhetoric of shaming that I'm all too familiar with from those deploying the authority of "traditional morality" to justify criticizing my sexuality. Not only is it the same kind of language, it parallels the same kind of mindset that assume someone who cannot love, or cannot will to love, does so out of a lack of good Christian will rather than something that is so closely entwined with an involuntary emotional reaction. On what ethical grounds can one justify shaming someone (as Liza's tirade of accusing someone of being selfish because their subjectivity does not conform to what they think is proper) for the way they feel, especially under circumstances where stigmatizing someone into forcing a proper relationship to their parent can lead to further trauma in its own right.

If anything is uncharitable it has been this sustained self-righteousness running through these assumptions about how people should (or even must) feel towards their parents.

[caddy_caddy]

I agree with Orphanpip. loving your abuser is hypocrisy . No one has right to interfere in your personal feelings. Love should arise naturally . You could Not love anyone out of duty. The aim of morality is not to change your personal feelings but to control your behaviour. I possess my feelings but have no right to hurt others or do something bad on the basis of my feelings. That's why I said thinking in terms of moral duty could resolve this conflict with our parents yet we remain true to our selves.

[Ecurb]

I cannot agree that love must be either an involuntary emotional state or an action. That dichotomy appears to be ignorant of the concept of agape, which, in Christian thought, is neither. Instead, it is a willful emotion that must be cultivated and practiced. That's one reason love engenders love -- by practicing being loving we not only make ourselves more "deserving" of being loved, but also more adept at both feeling the emotion and behaving in a loving way. The notion that we cannot control how we "feel" is, I think, incorrect. It is difficult to control our feelings, but not impossible. In the Christian worldview, one changes the way one feels by becoming a better person (with God's help).

That being said, I have no desire to "shame" anyone, to contemn anyone, or to demand anything of anyone. Instead, I am simply suggesting that we all behave as charitably as we are able. Obviously, none of us is ideally charitable, and some circumstances are more difficult than others.

[Bluehound]

However, I can attest to the finality of death as my brother and sisters witnessed the last breath, so I strongly urge you to make that final call as difficult as it may be.

Regards.


I have to agree here. I lost my Dad a year and a half ago, I loved him utterly but saw him infrequently for various reasons. So when he died suddenly I had no chance to say goodbye, it took me many months just to accept that he had gone at all let alone deal with the fact , and even now I am struck to my core sometimes with the finality of it all - I will never see him again , ever. It is impossible to comprehend how that feels until it is too late.

[liza]

we should forgive and love people when they are alive .. not only the last moments before they die.. this is not love ..this is beacause we feel guilty .. to try to love your father before he die.. is not love .. you don't do it for him .. but for yourself .. this IS SELFISH .. WE SHOULD FORGIVE PEOPLE .. FORGIVENESS