Tragic death

[udanchondi]

""Damini"" the brave girl have finally past away. The tragic victim of the rape, "damini" passed away in Singapore. Let's pray for her peace

[Paulclem]

It's a horrible story Udanchondi. The only good thing to come out of it is a questioning of attitudes to women in India. It's one of the things that is surprising about India. Condemning half the population to inferior rights can't be good.

[miyako73]

Daily or hourly rape of women in India is the effect of decades of female infanticide, foeticide, suicide, and honor-related murder. As the girls and women organize and become more vigilant and their numbers continue to dwindle because of more female infanticide, foeticide, suicide, and honor-related murder, Indian men will be raping Indian boys and other men.

[Delta40]

I was reading that men do not women using mobile phones as it is seen as improper and even precocious behaviour. Is that true?

[Paulclem]

Daily or hourly rape of women in India is the effect of decades of female infanticide, foeticide, suicide, and honor-related murder. As the girls and women organize and become more vigilant and their numbers continue to dwindle because of more female infanticide, foeticide, suicide, and honor-related murder, Indian men will be raping Indian boys and other men.

I don't for a moment think that the majoity of men think like this. Most men with wives and daughters won't have this extreme attitude, and there are lots of decent people everywhere. There were just as many men in the protests as women in Dehli.

[miyako73]

The reality in India is that the good, comfortable men (women included in that one) do nothing. Before the rape and murder of Amanat, hundreds of dalit, tribal, and low-caste girls and women had been raped but nobody had protested. I suspect because Amanat came from a different caste and well-to-do family and was a "medical" student, her case has stirred the entire nation--particularly the educated middle class. Kids are being raped in India on a daily basis. I have been an Indophile for quite some time now. Reading an Indian Online newspaper is like immersing myself in a nightmare.

[Paulclem]

The reality in India is that the good, comfortable men (women included in that one) do nothing. Before the rape and murder of Amanat, hundreds of dalit, tribal, and low-caste girls and women had been raped but nobody had protested. I suspect because Amanat came from a different caste and well-to-do family and was a "medical" student, her case has stirred the entire nation--particularly the educated middle class. Kids are being raped in India on a daily basis. I have been an Indophile for quite some time now. Reading an Indian Online newspaper is like immersing myself in a nightmare.

This is a more measured response. The inequalities of the caste system clearly provide opportunities for criminal acts, and I think you're probably right about her being a middle class medical student, and the effect that has. It will require a big change in attitudes which people at the top and middle will probably resist, as they will lose advantages - not just criminal ones. The religious sphere - whilst not sanctioning crimes like rape - promote this inequality. It's going to be difficult for them to change as they need to.

[prendrelemick]

Perhaps worse - or as bad, is the "solution" of forcing the girl to marry her rapist. So impossible is the stigma of rape for the woman's family, that they often force her to do this, and all charges are dropped.

Rather than locking up your daughters, teach your sons to behave.

[Paulclem]

Perhaps worse - or as bad, is the "solution" of forcing the girl to marry her rapist. So impossible is the stigma of rape for the woman's family, that they often force her to do this, and all charges are dropped.

Rather than locking up your daughters, teach your sons to behave.

Yes - it's taken a long time for women here to be able to complain/ prosecute/ support and explain to the public what happens. The stgma thing is going to be a massive change in attitudes. All that does is protect the criminals.

[WyattGwyon]

The reality in India is that the good, comfortable men (women included in that one) do nothing. Before the rape and murder of Amanat, hundreds of dalit, tribal, and low-caste girls and women had been raped but nobody had protested. I suspect because Amanat came from a different caste and well-to-do family and was a "medical" student, her case has stirred the entire nation--particularly the educated middle class. Kids are being raped in India on a daily basis. I have been an Indophile for quite some time now. Reading an Indian Online newspaper is like immersing myself in a nightmare.

Another reason this case stands out is because of the brutal torture. Reading between the lines of the medical report, it sounds like a metal rod inserted through her anus and perforating the intestines was responsible for infections in her lungs and other organs. You figure it out—if you have the stomach for it.

[Gladys]

The reality in India is that the good, comfortable men (women included in that one) do nothing. Before the rape and murder of Amanat, hundreds of dalit, tribal, and low-caste girls and women had been raped but nobody had protested. I suspect because Amanat came from a different caste and well-to-do family and was a "medical" student, her case has stirred the entire nation--particularly the educated middle class. Kids are being raped in India on a daily basis.

If most of the women raped in India are from lower castes, which castes generate most of the rapists, and why?

[miyako73]

It's hard to ascertain. Indian women have castes, but it seems their vaginas don't have.

[TheFifthElement]

I think the danger with this story is that it is being turned into a racist assault on India and Indian culture, as though rape is not a problem elsewhere. Things are just as bad, and just as under-reported in the western world. Women's rights are tenuous the world over. A timely report here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/01/delhi-rape-damini?intcmp=239
and here: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/sexual-violence-is-not-a-cultural-phenomenon-in-india--it-is-endemic-everywhere-8433445.html

[WyattGwyon]

I think the danger with this story is that it is being turned into a racist assault on India and Indian culture, as though rape is not a problem elsewhere.

Haven't heard anything of the kind. Who is doing this?


Things are just as bad, and just as under-reported in the western world.

Things are "bad" and "under-reported" in the west, "but just as bad?" Seriously?

[miyako73]

The world has to be racist against India, if it is the only thing that will change its culture of misogyny, if it's the only force of shame that will make its leaders act, and if it's the only way to make its people see the dirt and disease of their unjust, violent minds.

[Paulclem]

The world has to be racist against India, if it is the only thing that will change its culture of misogyny, if it's the only force of shame that will make its leaders act, and if it's the only way to make its people see the dirt and disease of their unjust, violent minds.

If you'd said things like international protests and vigils, then that would have been reasonable. What you do suggest is ridiculous on many levels.


I think the danger with this story is that it is being turned into a racist assault on India and Indian culture, as though rape is not a problem elsewhere. Things are just as bad, and just as under-reported in the western world. Women's rights are tenuous the world over. A timely report here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/01/delhi-rape-damini?intcmp=239
and here: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/sexual-violence-is-not-a-cultural-phenomenon-in-india--it-is-endemic-everywhere-8433445.html

I think it would be a mistake to compare reported rape cases in the UK and India. There is under reporting in the UK which is at least trying to improve the police procedures. Those adverts on TV about the no means no issue shows where we want to be at least. The social pressures in India are very different to here. The inequality is much greater.

[Madhuri]

This case has got into limelight because of the way the assault happened on the girl, which was much more than sexual assault. And that has got nothing to do with the caste she belonged to. Before the assault, she was not asked for permission to assault based on her caste. It was an act of sick minds. When a girl walks the streets, it's not written on her face that she belongs to a certain caste and so she should or should not be raped. Her being a medical student is just a related fact and that also does not make her by default a lower or upper caste (ever heard of reservation?). Relating this case with the caste is generalizing it a bit too much. And if you are not aware, the caste system is not just amongst Hindus, it's in other religions too.

Rape happens everywhere and some cases are never reported, which is not unique to India. However, good things are happening as a result of this case, the laws will become even more strict and perhaps the police and support agencies will become more approachable and sensitive towards such victims. This will definitely help in more cases being reported. This case has also raised concerns on the attitude of the society on the upbringing of children and the gender inequality. I think a stricter law and it's efficient implementation will make the society behave to some extent. We have to wait and watch how the change takes place.

[miyako73]

If you're from India and trying to present the phenomenon of rape in India as normal like in other countries, you're not helping your country. Babies and grannies are victims of rape in India. China is as big as your country, but I don't see/hear Chinese news detailing ordeals of raped kids in a daily basis. Throw away your pride and feel the shame. Only collective shame will make your countrymen change their culturally-accepted misogynistic attitude towards women.

[Paulclem]

This case has got into limelight because of the way the assault happened on the girl, which was much more than sexual assault. And that has got nothing to do with the caste she belonged to. Before the assault, she was not asked for permission to assault based on her caste. It was an act of sick minds. When a girl walks the streets, it's not written on her face that she belongs to a certain caste and so she should or should not be raped. Her being a medical student is just a related fact and that also does not make her by default a lower or upper caste (ever heard of reservation?). Relating this case with the caste is generalizing it a bit too much. And if you are not aware, the caste system is not just amongst Hindus, it's in other religions too.

Rape happens everywhere and some cases are never reported, which is not unique to India. However, good things are happening as a result of this case, the laws will become even more strict and perhaps the police and support agencies will become more approachable and sensitive towards such victims. This will definitely help in more cases being reported. This case has also raised concerns on the attitude of the society on the upbringing of children and the gender inequality. I think a stricter law and it's efficient implementation will make the society behave to some extent. We have to wait and watch how the change takes place.

This case is horrible for the girl and her family. Nothing takes away from that fact.

The wider questions raised also come because of the attack, and the problem is the inequalities which exist in India - particularly for women. I don't think you can get away from inequality to women/ attitudes to women/ caste because the caste situation creates and sustains inequality. This is particularly difficult for women who are vulnerable to negative influences and attitudes. Clearly anyone can have something unfortunate happen to them, but would it receive as much attention as it has done if the girl had been an untouchable?

Rape happens everywhere and some cases are never reported, which is not unique to India.

It is thus difficult to come up with figures, but we have agencies in the UK which deal with victims beyond the criminal justice system. They regularly make statements and try to positively affect policy. It's not perfect, but what is? It can only improve. The work done has removed the stigma of rape for women to a greater extent than in the past, and attitudes are healthier than they were. Can you say that attitudes in India to a raped girl are healthy and that the stigma has been removed? It requires a very large cultural shift which will not happen overnight.

By the way, I don't know where Miyako is from or why they are so negative about India, or why China - that bastion of human rights - is held up as a good example in comparison.

[Gladys]

However, good things are happening as a result of this case, the laws will become even more strict and perhaps the police and support agencies will become more approachable and sensitive towards such victims.

Why might Indian police be less than approachable or sensitive to victims of rape, especially rape by strangers and, more especially, rape with assault? Are there cultural or historical factors that makes India different? Is community tolerance for honour killings somehow related?

[miyako73]

Romanticizing India is not the solution. Even Indian leaders educated in the west have resorted to "collective shaming." The enlightened Whites used the same thing when they supported Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. India needs an enlightened class that will be so ashamed of being part of the problem because of its silence. Because of that shame, that enlightened class will speak up.

A good Australian article: http://mangaloretoday.com/mt/index.php?action=opinion&type=109&cat=2

Indian politicians have been saying the gang-rape of Amanat is a national shame. If it is that shameful, they should do something. Damn parrots!

[E.A Rumfield]

Romanticizing India is not the solution. Even Indian leaders educated in the west have resorted to "collective shaming." The enlightened Whites used the same thing when they supported Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. India needs an enlightened class that will be so ashamed of being part of the problem because of its silence. Because of that shame, that enlightened class will speak up.

A good Australian article: http://mangaloretoday.com/mt/index.php?action=opinion&type=109&cat=2

Indian politicians have been saying the gang-rape of Amanat is a national shame. If it is that shameful, they should do something. Damn parrots!

That is a very good point the whole world needs an enlightened class. I don't know anything about this particular situation but India certainly has bigger problems. The gap between wealthy and poor is growing across the world. The world is under the control of corporations and anyone that doesn't have money can suck it, that includes all the wildlife on the planet and the planet itself. It is our fault, it is because of our indifference. The damn petite bourgeois care for nothing but there own survival. It is because of our love of progress for progresses sake, because what would the world be without central air!? Oh the humanity! Meanwhile we are losing our humanity. More and more I see people with their faces glued to their damned IPhones only concerned with not standing out, only concerned with what everyone else is concerned with. The individual is dead. Go anywhere around the world and witness the lose of culture at different stages for progress. Witness the lifeless state of earth at different stages. I live in New York, it is winter all the time here. Dead, nothing lives, cept the rats.

[Delta40]

don't suggest that the poor care more than their own survival Rumfield. Don't give the poor credit just because they're poor.

[E.A Rumfield]

don't suggest that the poor care more than their own survival Rumfield. Don't give the poor credit just because they're poor.

No but the poor know what it is like to go hungry, the poor know what it is like to work a bull**** job, the poor know things are ****ed just as well as the rich now they are ****ing things. The middle class cares only about comfort. Only about leasing a new Accord and getting the new IPhone or IPad. The middle class only care about comparing their suffering with their friends and neighbors. The middle class only cares about television shows and hiding their scars. The middle class step on the poor and slave for the rich all for some trivialities. The middle class consume the bull**** the rich sell made with the blood and sweat of the poor. The middle class breaks the backs of the poor and fills the pockets of the rich. Their are more poor than middle class and more middle class than rich. The poor are the base of our pyramid and necessary to maintain the lifestyle of the greedy stupid masses. The middle class are the puppets you see everyday preaching the decaying gospel of our social political and economic system. They are the cops who don't care about protecting the citizens only about making their arrest quota. The middle class are the teachers that don't care whether or not their children learn anything as long as they have a good graduation rate. The middle class trick stupid people into buying mortgages they can't afford. They don't want anything to change because they are middle class and their parents and so on and so forth. They refuse to risk anything to gain something more because they are so afraid of being poor. They spend all their time gossiping and trying to destroy each other.

[Delta40]

So what you're saying is peoples are peoples. Sounds human to me.

[prendrelemick]

No but the poor know what it is like to go hungry, the poor know what it is like to work a bull**** job, the poor know things are ****ed just as well as the rich now they are ****ing things. The middle class cares only about comfort. Only about leasing a new Accord and getting the new IPhone or IPad. The middle class only care about comparing their suffering with their friends and neighbors. The middle class only cares about television shows and hiding their scars. The middle class step on the poor and slave for the rich all for some trivialities. The middle class consume the bull**** the rich sell made with the blood and sweat of the poor. The middle class breaks the backs of the poor and fills the pockets of the rich. Their are more poor than middle class and more middle class than rich. The poor are the base of our pyramid and necessary to maintain the lifestyle of the greedy stupid masses. The middle class are the puppets you see everyday preaching the decaying gospel of our social political and economic system. They are the cops who don't care about protecting the citizens only about making their arrest quota. The middle class are the teachers that don't care whether or not their children learn anything as long as they have a good graduation rate. The middle class trick stupid people into buying mortgages they can't afford. They don't want anything to change because they are middle class and their parents and so on and so forth. They refuse to risk anything to gain something more because they are so afraid of being poor. They spend all their time gossiping and trying to destroy each other.

Well, well I think I agree with most of that. However the middle class are necessary to society, they are like a lump of ballast on a ship. As long as they are there in sufficient numbers they keep things stable.

[MarkBastable]

No but the poor know what it is like to go hungry, the poor know what it is like to work a bull**** job, the poor know things are ****ed just as well as the rich now they are ****ing things. The middle class cares only about comfort. Only about leasing a new Accord and getting the new IPhone or IPad. The middle class only care about comparing their suffering with their friends and neighbors. The middle class only cares about television shows and hiding their scars. The middle class step on the poor and slave for the rich all for some trivialities. The middle class consume the bull**** the rich sell made with the blood and sweat of the poor. The middle class breaks the backs of the poor and fills the pockets of the rich. Their are more poor than middle class and more middle class than rich. The poor are the base of our pyramid and necessary to maintain the lifestyle of the greedy stupid masses. The middle class are the puppets you see everyday preaching the decaying gospel of our social political and economic system. They are the cops who don't care about protecting the citizens only about making their arrest quota. The middle class are the teachers that don't care whether or not their children learn anything as long as they have a good graduation rate. The middle class trick stupid people into buying mortgages they can't afford. They don't want anything to change because they are middle class and their parents and so on and so forth. They refuse to risk anything to gain something more because they are so afraid of being poor. They spend all their time gossiping and trying to destroy each other.


Speaking as a member of the middle-class, I'd just like to say that all this is absolutely true about the middle-class. From my years of being poor, I can also say it's absolutely true about the poor. I'm working on becoming rich (mainly by having my iPhone glued to my face) and when I get there, I'll let you know how true or otherwise the above is about the rich.

[miyako73]

Top Stories in India today. Find me a set of top stories like this in any country.

Akbaruddin Owaisi, alleged hate-speech giver, won't appear before police today
Fog hits flights, trains in Delhi | This Haryana town records -3° | Share pics | Donate a blanket
Teacher arrested for raping 4 minor students
15-yr-old raped by two, including a minor
2G auction to begin on March 11, says panel
4 minors allegedly raped by 40-yr-old man
Mumbai: Cops stumble upon baby-selling racket
Chuck Hagel set to be next US Defence Secretary
Cops hunt for man who set girlfriend on fire
Pilot lands safely despite losing wheel mid air
90-yr-old Saudi marries 15-yr-old girl, sparks condemnation
Sehwag not part of 2015 World Cup plans: Report | Gavaskar on Sehwag being axed
India vs Pakistan: 'Cold made the chase tough'
Google continues 'war' on Microsoft users
Salman isn't God, says Bigg Boss contestant

[Alexander III]

No but the poor know what it is like to go hungry, the poor know what it is like to work a bull**** job, the poor know things are ****ed just as well as the rich now they are ****ing things. The middle class cares only about comfort. Only about leasing a new Accord and getting the new IPhone or IPad. The middle class only care about comparing their suffering with their friends and neighbors. The middle class only cares about television shows and hiding their scars. The middle class step on the poor and slave for the rich all for some trivialities. The middle class consume the bull**** the rich sell made with the blood and sweat of the poor. The middle class breaks the backs of the poor and fills the pockets of the rich. Their are more poor than middle class and more middle class than rich. The poor are the base of our pyramid and necessary to maintain the lifestyle of the greedy stupid masses. The middle class are the puppets you see everyday preaching the decaying gospel of our social political and economic system. They are the cops who don't care about protecting the citizens only about making their arrest quota. The middle class are the teachers that don't care whether or not their children learn anything as long as they have a good graduation rate. The middle class trick stupid people into buying mortgages they can't afford. They don't want anything to change because they are middle class and their parents and so on and so forth. They refuse to risk anything to gain something more because they are so afraid of being poor. They spend all their time gossiping and trying to destroy each other.

What are you a starving Indian child? How on earth could you think that a cop or a teacher is middle-class with the salaries they make. Lets face it, cops and teachers are paid working-class salaries.

[mona amon]

If you're from India and trying to present the phenomenon of rape in India as normal like in other countries, you're not helping your country. Babies and grannies are victims of rape in India. China is as big as your country, but I don't see/hear Chinese news detailing ordeals of raped kids in a daily basis. Throw away your pride and feel the shame. Only collective shame will make your countrymen change their culturally-accepted misogynistic attitude towards women.

Madhuri was not trying to romanticise. She was trying to present a more balanced view of what happened, since a few people (including you) have automatically linked this rape to the condition of women in India, female feoticide, etc, etc. This particular assault, where a helpless couple fell into the the hands of violent criminally minded men late in the night, could have happened in any country.

And China, really? A country which has an even more skewed sex-ratio than India? And whatever horrible things may happen in India, at least it's all out there in the newspapers and TV for all to see.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to sweep my country's womens' problems under the carpet. But when I see a post like this -


Daily or hourly rape of women in India is the effect of decades of female infanticide, foeticide, suicide, and honor-related murder. As the girls and women organize and become more vigilant and their numbers continue to dwindle because of more female infanticide, foeticide, suicide, and honor-related murder, Indian men will be raping Indian boys and other men.

it strikes me as reductive, half-baked, partial knowledge and simplistic conclusions. At the root of most of India's problems are the extreme poverty of most of the people, the huge differences in power/wealth, and of course corruption. You've got to understand that, before suggesting simplistic solutions.

[miyako73]

Sorry Mona. I've been reading NDTV, CNN-IBN, Rediff, The Hindu, India Express, The Times of India, The Telegraph, etc. since ten years ago. I read rape stories on a daily basis. Besides Lalu's antics and Mamata's tantrums, Indian rape stories have bored me to death already.

[mona amon]

Miyako, I rest my case. You can only get a partial picture of any country by reading the papers, which obviously publish mostly sensational or newsworthy stories, and rape is very newsworthy. Anyway, in which Utopia is there no rape or child abuse? I would like to emmigrate there.

Please don't think I'm saying that what you read is not true. It's just not the whole picture by any means. Reality is more complicated than the comments you've been making or the headlines you've been quoting. I'm not even saying that I have any true picture - India is too big and too diverse to be comprehended even by its own nationals. Perhaps this is true of all countries. I don't know - I've only ever lived in this one.

[Emil Miller]

The world is under the control of corporations and anyone that doesn't have money can suck it, that includes all the wildlife on the planet and the planet itself. It is our fault, it is because of our indifference. More and more I see people with their faces glued to their damned IPhone only concerned with not standing out, only concerned with what everyone else is . The individual is dead. Go anywhere around the world and witness the lose of culture at different stages for progress.

I have made it a practice, when people start acting like lemmings, to ask myself why. And invariably your 'control by corporations' supplies the answer. The pointless use of IPhones here in the UK has reached proportions of idiocy that has probably never been equalled in all of its history. In such a scenario, the disincentive to have an IPhone is obvious and I shall continue to do without one.

[/QUOTE] I live in New York, it is winter all the time here. Dead, nothing lives, cept the rats.[/QUOTE]

If you think New York is bad avoid London at all costs.

[Volya]

mona amon: Although rape and sex abuse happens all over the world, it is undeniable that it happens more frequently in India, and this is (almost definitely) due to the attitude towards women there.

[miyako73]

Miyako, I rest my case. You can only get a partial picture of any country by reading the papers, which obviously publish mostly sensational or newsworthy stories, and rape is very newsworthy. Anyway, in which Utopia is there no rape or child abuse? I would like to emmigrate there.

Please don't think I'm saying that what you read is not true. It's just not the whole picture by any means. Reality is more complicated than the comments you've been making or the headlines you've been quoting. I'm not even saying that I have any true picture - India is too big and too diverse to be comprehended even by its own nationals. Perhaps this is true of all countries. I don't know - I've only ever lived in this one.

You should be yelling in the street: "YES RAPE IN INDIA HAPPENS EVERY MINUTE. WE WANT THE THREE BRANCHES OF THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT GIRLS AND WOMEN."

Maybe through your collective voice, Women's Bill will be passed, Indian politicians who commit crimes against women will be jailed, local women leaders will run panchayats, Indian rapists will be physically castrated a la hijra style if death penalty is too harsh, cops will be trained how to handle women's issues, boys and girls will be educated early about justice and equality, crimes against women will become heinous crimes, judicial proceeding against rapists and criminals who violate women will be swift, religious institutions will be charged if they promote misogyny and crimes against women

You have a long way to go. If RSS and other ultra-conservative organizations and Hindu bapus and gurus blame women who are victims of rape, you really have a long way to go.

Yell at the top of your lungs: "YES RAPE IN INDIA HAPPENS EVERY MINUTE OR EVEN EVERY SECOND. WE WANT THE THREE BRANCHES OF THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT GIRLS AND WOMEN. WE WANT OUR LEADERS TO BE PRO-WOMEN."

Swallow your pride for this one. Accept the shame for the sake of change. If that change happens, maybe India will, indeed, become a superpower-what you all want to happen. But first stop hiding the dirt under your eyelids and the piss smell in your nostrils.

[JBI]

Madhuri was not trying to romanticise. She was trying to present a more balanced view of what happened, since a few people (including you) have automatically linked this rape to the condition of women in India, female feoticide, etc, etc. This particular assault, where a helpless couple fell into the the hands of violent criminally minded men late in the night, could have happened in any country.

And China, really? A country which has an even more skewed sex-ratio than India? And whatever horrible things may happen in India, at least it's all out there in the newspapers and TV for all to see.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to sweep my country's womens' problems under the carpet. But when I see a post like this -



it strikes me as reductive, half-baked, partial knowledge and simplistic conclusions. At the root of most of India's problems are the extreme poverty of most of the people, the huge differences in power/wealth, and of course corruption. You've got to understand that, before suggesting simplistic solutions.

In all fairness the sex-ratio amongst men and women among the upper and middle classes of Chinese society is more balanced, and the government strictly condemns actions toward female infanticide. As for women's rights, there is progress, and I would say the 1970s Chinese woman was more "liberated" than her Western counterpart - where things have gone in the past 30 years is another issue.

That aside, China, in terms of Asian cultures, is far more advanced on issues of Women's liberation. Indian female infanticide amongst the upper and middle classes is still a major problem, especially since it is still legal, and very easily performed (go, do an ultrasound, see the wrong fetus, shoot a needle, done). In China this is absolutely illegal, and the doctor will probably lie to you and tell you you are expecting a boy anyway, if he has the nerve to go against the law and tell you.

That aside, in terms of violence against women, Pakistan and India, especially amongst the poorer castes, are far behind in terms of support, and victim's rights, and prosecution. The case is big, arguably, because it was a well-to-do woman. A poor untouchable would not have warranted protests - merely the shunning of the victim's family.


As for those who argue that this is a world issue, that is one aspect, and it is true. However, that does not reject the issues - simply put, women's liberation in much of the Western world is far more advanced than in other places. IF we say violence against women is a problem everywhere, we must also realize that it is a bigger problem in some places than others.

[caddy_caddy]

The world has to be racist against India, if it is the only thing that will change its culture of misogyny, if it's the only force of shame that will make its leaders act, and if it's the only way to make its people see the dirt and disease of their unjust, violent minds.

Completley agree. Because this is the only way to force them to do sth. When the " Others" call them racist and all bad things.
What they really care about is not human rights but " their image " in the world.

[miyako73]

India needs more writers like this one:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/03/afsun-qureshi-how-indias-rape-culture-came-to-canada/

[Delta40]

Yell at the top of your lungs: "YES RAPE IN INDIA HAPPENS EVERY MINUTE OR EVEN EVERY SECOND. WE WANT THE THREE BRANCHES OF THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT GIRLS AND WOMEN. WE WANT OUR LEADERS TO BE PRO-WOMEN."


Do women call this out before or after they circumsize their daughters?

[miyako73]

succinct! hehehehe They don't have female circumcision in India though. They have mothers (and fathers) burning their daughters, throwing acid at their faces, poisoning them, hacking them into halves if their mothers' (and fathers') whims regarding marriage and honor are not met.

[Delta40]

As a matter of fact Miyako they do. So what are you going to tell these women who mutilate their own daughters to yell? Somebody posted earlier that you only have a partial picture and I agree. You're going to bat for countless perpetrators of bloody violence against children and you have the audacity to tell me such crimes do not exist?

[miyako73]

Female circumcision is not a big issue and not a Hindu practice. Maybe it happens in some Muslim areas. The women's groups that work on the banning of FGM rarely mentions India.

Do you expect women who participate in misogynistic practices to join the protest? My position is radical but not new. Many Indian writers say the same thing. Have you been to India? Google it. How many tourists and foreigners have been raped? They even have politicians in their parliament who have rape cases against them.

[Delta40]

So now Google is God coupled with your guesses. I think it is admirable that you feel outrage. Hypocritical (and human) that you are selective on which issues take precedent.

[miyako73]

No Delta. You can google the news. Indian newspapers. I've been to India three times and conducted an ethnographic fieldwork. I know what I'm talking about. I had never been groped so many times until I went there. Even when I told them I am a "hijra", they still groped me.

[Delta40]

You're missing my point again Miyako.

[miyako73]

On being selective... My training is in anthropology, and I cannot easily condemn female circumcision the way I can with rape. Circumcision of boys is violent too but it has a cultural history/tradition. Rape is a crime, plain and simple. Big difference.

In the case of India, the majority of Hindus don't care about Muslims and their social problems. They hate each other. Hindus killed Muslims occasionally-- Gujarat riot is an example where Muslim women were raped and Muslim men murdered. So FGM in Bohra Muslim community will never instigate a wide protest in the country of mostly Hindus.

Is female circumcision wrong? Personally, yes. As an open-minded anthropologist, no.

[Delta40]

Lol. You're not going to suggest that your outrage on selective world issues is objectively based unlike the rest of us uneducated people who react subjectively are you? I imagine getting groped has nothing to do with your determination so much as proving your social theory.

[miyako73]

I'm just showing you that over there they respect cows more than women.

[Delta40]

Oh I don't disagree with you on that. I care about the plight of Indigenous people here in Australia and couldn't give a fig about what is happening in India. That's my subjectivity speaking.

[miyako73]

I care more about the rape victims because I know their story. I have said enough.

[Delta40]

Me too. gotta go to work. Have a nice day Miyako.

[qimissung]

This article might help shed some light on the importance and polarization of this issue right now. It's called "The war on female sexuality: is globalization to blame?"

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/05/the_war_on_female_sexuality_is_globalization_to_bl ame/

It's mainly an interview with a sociologist who wrote "Of Virgins and Martyrs: Women and Sexuality in Global Conflict."

An excerpt from the article:

What Jacobson does beautifully in his accessibly academic book is differentiate between politicized Islamist patriarchy and “the broader Muslim community,” the former being “a core expression of a deeper global fissure,” he explains. “In an honor society, patriarchal and tribal traditions dictate that a woman’s body belongs to and serves the community. … An interest-based society privileges self-determination, the sovereignty of the individual over her body, and ownership of one’s own capital, be it economic, cultural, or social.” As globalization improves the status of many women, it also incites a ferocious backlash against them.

[Volya]

Rape is a problem in India. Female circumcision is also a problem in India. However it would appear that at the moment, rape is a bigger problem. That is not to say the government should do nothing about FGM though.

[Delta40]

Rape is a problem in India. Female circumcision is also a problem in India. However it would appear that at the moment, rape is a bigger problem. That is not to say the government should do nothing about FGM though.

Lol - maybe women should all be armed with semi-automatics?

[mona amon]

Rape is a problem in India. Female circumcision is also a problem in India. However it would appear that at the moment, rape is a bigger problem. That is not to say the government should do nothing about FGM though.

Volya, the practice of female genital mutilation is unheard of in India.


On being selective... My training is in anthropology, and I cannot easily condemn female circumcision the way I can with rape. Circumcision of boys is violent too but it has a cultural history/tradition. Rape is a crime, plain and simple. Big difference.
...[cut]...
Is female circumcision wrong? Personally, yes. As an open-minded anthropologist, no.

With that statement you've lost all credibility with me.


Oh I don't disagree with you on that. I care about the plight of Indigenous people here in Australia and couldn't give a fig about what is happening in India. That's my subjectivity speaking.

Most sensible thing I've read so far on this thread. :cheers2:

[miyako73]

Mona, that's what you want to happen-- the world not to care so the image of romanticized India will be intact. Complacency!

Did I lose my credibility because anthropologically I cannot oppose female circumcision? Oh, Miss, you have a lot of anthropologists to put down. Anthropologists are trained not to judge a culture, and they know what is cultural or criminal. The eradication of female circumcision must come from the people who practice it. Didn't your political, cultural, religious, and intellectual leaders work for the banning of the practice of sati--a wife's burning of herself to death on her husband's funeral pyre?

Personally, I find a lot of cultural practices imposed on women to be violent-- foot-binding (China), neck-lengthening (Thailand), bride-fattening (Africa), lip-plating (Africa)--but anthropologically speaking, they are no different to the violent and abusive practices in the West that are cultural or subcultural--fraternity hazing, circumcision of boys, boys forced by their fathers to attend ball camps, butt-spanking, female plastic surgeries for job advancement and strengthening of marriage, forcing children out of their parents' homes at 18 even if they live in the streets hungry, abandonment of old parents in eldercare houses,

You can question my credibility if you want. Rape to me is a crime not a cultural tradition. Prove to me that rape is an accepted part of Indian culture, then I'll shut up.

[Paulclem]

On being selective... My training is in anthropology, and I cannot easily condemn female circumcision the way I can with rape. Circumcision of boys is violent too but it has a cultural history/tradition. Rape is a crime, plain and simple. Big difference.

Is female circumcision wrong? Personally, yes. As an open-minded anthropologist, no.

I think you're letting your academic sensibility blind you to simple sense and compassion. Femle circumcision is is a crime whether it is culturally accepted in a particular country or not.

What you're saying is that if a society develops a culture of something negative - then that's more acceptable than a recognised crime. I think that is a very dangerous view, as well as being morally abhorrent.

Ad all the eamples you gave - butt spanking? (Minor) Plastic surgery? ( Chosen and not enforced), Installing the elderly in old folks homes? (In many cases 24 hour care and supervision). They hardly compare. Even male circumcision - which I view as odd, potentially damaging, and a wierd clinging to out moded views, does not have the same implications as female circumcision

[miyako73]

Neck lengthening among kayan people is a body modification related to beauty. Do you think liposuction or liposculpture not a body modification related to beauty? You really need to read surveys why Americans undergo plastic surgeries. three things always come out: job, marriage, self-esteem.

In my country, if you abandon your old parents even in an eldercare facility, you are considered irresponsible, ungrateful, cruel, abusive son or daughter your neighbors will not respect. See, if I don't think in an anthropological way, I can't understand the practice in America in which ageing parents are left by their children in the eldercare facilities.

When I say anthropological way, I don't mean this is equal to that. It means cultural relativity--what is bad or ugly for some is good or beautiful for others. Cultural relativity is not applicable to rape. Rape is bad and ugly for all except for rapists.

[MarkBastable]

When I say anthropological way, I don't mean this is equal to that. It means cultural relativity--what is bad or ugly for some is good or beautiful for others. Cultural relativity is not applicable to rape. Rape is bad and ugly for all except for rapists.

That would imply that there's

1) some objective characteristic that can be applied to categorise all practices as either (a) 'outside cultural context' or (b) 'contextual to the prevailing culture'
and
2) some objective morality that can be applied to categorise the 'outside cultural context' practices as either 'good' or 'bad'

Rape, you say, can be categorised as 'outside cultural context' and 'bad'. Altruism, for instance, might be categorised as 'outside cultural context' and 'good'.

The problem with that, I think, is that your logic suggests that categorisation (2) can only be applied to category (1a), because - as you have said - 'good' and 'bad' doesn't apply to category (1b).

But most people would suggest that (2) can be applied to any any practice, regardless of (1).

However, if you're right, it does beg the question of where we get the criteria for (2), if not from our own cultural context.

[Delta40]

That would mean practices such as honour killings are contextual to the prevailing culture and cannot be considered good or bad. Of course one may still have an opinion but I'm happy to respect the practice for these reasons...

This also blows my opinion about gun laws in the US out of the water (damn!)

[mona amon]

I agree with Paul, and I cannot understand this anthropology excuse.


Mona, that's what you want to happen-- the world not to care so the image of romanticized India will be intact. Complacency!

You have a very wrong idea of what I've been saying here - so wrong that I can't help feeling that you need to have a romanticizer out here so you can have fun ranting and telling them off and displaying the (unfortunately simplistic) knowledge that you've picked up. There's no one romanticizing India here, so you've picked on me. Here's the relevant part of my post -


it strikes me as reductive, half-baked, partial knowledge and simplistic conclusions. At the root of most of India's problems are the extreme poverty of most of the people, the huge differences in power/wealth, and of course corruption. You've got to understand that, before suggesting simplistic solutions.

Which part of it strikes you as romanticizing? And where did you get the idea that people out here do not protest or are not ashamed of the things that happen? You must be doing a very selective reading of the news if you think that.

I know I'm being much more on the defensive than I usually am, but that is because you've been flat out insulting. You've seen children bite, scratch and kick their siblings, but if an outsider attacks them, they immediately spring to their defence. Same sort of psychology in operation here.

I'm perfectly open to well researched, knowledgeable, genuine criticisms of my country from outsiders, however negative they may be, but your comments did not sound genuine to me. They were just insults flung out to try and make you look good.

[miyako73]

That would imply that there's

1) some objective characteristic that can be applied to categorise all practices as either (a) 'outside cultural context' or (b) 'contextual to the prevailing culture'
and
2) some objective morality that can be applied to categorise the 'outside cultural context' practices as either 'good' or 'bad'

Rape, you say, can be categorised as 'outside cultural context' and 'bad'. Altruism, for instance, might be categorised as 'outside cultural context' and 'good'.

The problem with that, I think, is that your logic suggests that categorisation (2) can only be applied to category (1a), because - as you have said - 'good' and 'bad' doesn't apply to category (1b).

But most people would suggest that (2) can be applied to any any practice, regardless of (1).

However, if you're right, it does beg the question of where we get the criteria for (2), if not from our own cultural context.

You are complicating things. I still have to find a culture that sanctions rape. Even honor killing is a criminal offence in places that practice it, but it is so culturally entrenched that it is hard to eradicate totally.

It's a suspect why you throw in altruism beside rape... are you introducing the biological justification of rape? Let's not go there.

[miyako73]

I agree with Paul, and I cannot understand this anthropology excuse.



You have a very wrong idea of what I've been saying here - so wrong that I can't help feeling that you need to have a romanticizer out here so you can have fun ranting and telling them off and displaying the (unfortunately simplistic) knowledge that you've picked up. There's no one romanticizing India here, so you've picked on me. Here's the relevant part of my post -



Which part of it strikes you as romanticizing? And where did you get the idea that people out here do not protest or are not ashamed of the things that happen? You must be doing a very selective reading of the news if you think that.

I know I'm being much more on the defensive than I usually am, but that is because you've been flat out insulting. You've seen children bite, scratch and kick their siblings, but if an outsider attacks them, they immediately spring to their defence. Same sort of psychology in operation here.

I'm perfectly open to well researched, knowledgeable, genuine criticisms of my country from outsiders, however negative they may be, but your comments did not sound genuine to me. They were just insults flung out to try and make you look good.


Okay, Mona. Here's what the Canadian-born Indian wrote:

Afsun Qureshi: How India’s rape culture came to Canada

Afsun Qureshi, Special to National Post | Jan 3, 2013 12:01 AM ET | Last Updated: Jan 2, 2013 5:36 PM ET
More from Special to National Post



Weeks before a young medical student endured a fatal Dec. 16 gang rape in Delhi, my eight-year-old daughter announced that she wanted to visit India. She’d become intrigued by her own Indian heritage, and by my frequent visits there.

To which I replied: “Sure, but only if you are handcuffed to me or your father.”

She laughed. But I was serious. Last July, during my most recent trip to India, I endured getting rubbed up against, pinched and groped, whilst the offending perverts took shelter in the formidable crowds to camouflage their crimes.

I am Canadian-born to Indian parents, and grew up in Toronto, the heartland of the Trudeau-era Indo-Pak influx. I know that the attitudes that spawned India’s recent gang-rape tragedy don’t just flourish in South Asia. Sadly enough, there are common threads of cultural-based misogyny wherever the Indo-Pak, and now Afghani, communities settle.

In their 50-odd years as Canadians, my parents rarely ventured out of that community. Growing up in their household, I came to know this world intimately. What I write isn’t conjecture: It is personal experience.

The first rule in this deeply flawed patriarchal society: men rule. Getting a first-born son is like striking gold. And in most cases, that child and any boys that follow are spoiled to an extreme degree. What “needs” they have are met — even if that means casting a blind eye to the law.

A few years back, one of the members of my community, a girl out of her teens, endured the ordeal of an arranged marriage to a stranger in India. Although Canadian-born, she was sent to live with her in-laws in a small Indian town. India being what it is, various members of the extended family, i.e., brothers, sisters, grandparents, uncles, etc., lived communally under one roof. Within weeks of her arriving, a brother-in-law attempted to rape her.

The attitude from the rest of the household? A shoulder shrug and a “Get over it. Boys will be boys.” Her persistent protests finally spelled divorce — ironically, instigated from the groom’s family, who never denied the brother-in-law’s crime, but felt dishonoured by the fact that this Canadian harlot had the cheek to protest it. (It was assumed that the attempted rape was all her fault. She must have batted her eyelids; she must have showed an ankle.)


Within my own extended family, there was a “funny uncle” who took turns on everyone, regardless of gender and age. Although he committed crimes in the nature of Jimmy Saville (no exaggeration), today he is a free man living with his family in a Toronto suburb. God help his children and the neighbourhood kids.

The community simply shut their eyes to his twisted crimes, and ignored his victims, many of whom later suffered PTSD as adults. Calling the police then was never an option. Why? Because whatever happens in the hermetically-sealed Indo-Pak community stays in the Indo-Pak community, where the “honour” code has a chokehold. Growing up, I always wondered (and still do) what would happen if the police or social workers ever knew what actually goes on behind our closed doors.

The patriarchal elements of such societies not only serve to protect criminals, but also isolate their female victims. Consider the young woman in India who committed suicide a few months back because the police refused to act on her allegations that she’d been raped during the Hindu festival of Diwali. They believed the story, oh yes, but they just didn’t care, and couldn’t be bothered to do anything about it.

Look at Shafilea Ahmed, the British-Pakistani girl suffocated to death by her father in 2009 for being too “Westernized.” In Canada, there are the Shafia crimes, and of course the infamous case of Aqsa Parvez. I am deeply shamed to say that when reading Christie Blatchford’s reportage on the Shafias, so much of it made me feel “right at home” — despite the fact that I escaped that world decades ago (both by geography, and by marriage). It resonated to the point where my heart ached.

The protests witnessed in India in recent days show that the country is engaged in a rare moment of introspection. We need that introspection here in Canada as well. Many of the South Asian immigrants who’ve settled in Canada since the 1970s have been so afraid of losing their culture that they have ferociously clung to some of their worst customs. Each time I visit India, I notice that it progresses ever so slightly with each passing year. But when I visit Toronto, as I regularly do, I sometimes feel like I have walked through a time machine, sending me back to rural India, a village in Pakistan, or an Afghan mountain cave.

As I write this now, I fear recrimination from that community — and certain members of my own family. But I am also hoping to tap into a spirit of solidarity. Perhaps a new generation will help push for change.

National Post

Afsun Qureshi is a Canadian-born writer living in London, England.

[miyako73]

Here's another one, Mona, by an Indian writer (Firstpost). If you keep on denying and hiding the truth, you're not helping your country. Are you an RSS supporter? It seems to me nationalist Hindus do not acknowledge that rape is a big problem in the whole of India. I hope you're not like them who blame rape victims why they are raped.


Firstpost India

A rape every 22 mins: What makes us so complacent?
by Akshaya Mishra Oct 12, 2012


One woman gets raped every 22 minutes in India. One child gets raped in every 76 minutes. Only one in every four accused in the crime gets convicted. Between 1971 and 2011 cases of rape registered a 873 percent jump. That is the biggest among all categories of crime. This is the information provided by the National Crime Records Bureau data. Add to the dismal numbers the fact that most such cases go unreported due to social and other reasons.

We have a problem, a serious one. Only we won’t acknowledge it. That’s the reason we will reduce the recent rape cases in Haryana to media entertainment. Entertainment, yes, because what we don’t have, after a month these cases started surfacing, is a serious debate on the issue. The focus has consistently been on the peripherals – khaps finding a bizarre solution to the problem, loose remarks from politicians and political visits to the victims.


There’s enough sarcasm going around for the solutions or perceived solutions offered by different sections. The khaps believe reducing the marriageable age of children will bring down cases of rape. This solution has backing of many in the political class. Others would call it solely a law and order problem and suggest heavy crackdown on the culprits as a remedy. Some would ask the girls to dress appropriately, conduct themselves in an acceptable manner and even stop using mobile phones.

All this nowhere come close to a solution but let’s face it, these are only expected responses from people with a limited worldview shaped by the reality of their existence. You cannot expect a khap panchayat to manufacture an enlightened opinion that is acceptable to the modern, liberal class. It’s possible they simply know of no other solution. The local politicians emerge out of the same stock, so their views are not likely to be too different either.

Let’s be clear that all rapes don’t happen in the social environment dominated by the khap panchayats. The menace is far too widespread. The Delhi-NCR region is called the rape capital of India. There is high incidence of rape in states like Madhya Pradesh, West Bengal and Uttar Pradesh too. People involved are not always uneducated people with little knowledge of the law. It’s possible that there is more awareness now and that’s why more and more victims are coming out to lodge complaints but the escalating numbers offer no confidence.

It’s a recorded fact that in a significantly high number of cases the rapists are usually friends or relatives. According to statistics nine out of 10 alleged culprits were known to the victim. No complaint was lodged as the victims’ families were worried about social shame. The cases that makes the flood of derision at a Hisar Congressman’s recent comment on rape of women is a bit misplaced.

“The girl gets into an affair with a boy and she goes with him without knowing that he is of criminal mindset. It’s not the state government which is responsible for rapes, in fact in most of the cases its consensual sex… In 90 percent cases, the girls and women initially accompany boys on their own and are later trapped in gang-rape by criminals,” he said. He is wrong in saying that rape is consensual – simply because if it is rape it cannot be consensual. But the other part of his observation is not too out of place. If so many rapes are taking place because of the proximity of the culprits and the victims, it’s only logical that a great degree of our attention towards addressing the problem should be directed here.

Unfortunately, we have no discussion on that. Worse, we have no solution at all coming from the chattering classes. Rape cases have several dimensions, social, criminal, psychological and gender discrimination. Can it be treated as a law and order problem alone? Certainly not. Even if it is, do we have enough sensitivity and expertise in our police mechanism to deal with such cases in a proper manner?

Much of our discourse on the subject is focussed on the policing aspect only. We need to have a more comprehensive approach. And it calls for an intelligent debate. The situation is surely going beyond control. It’s time we got serious.

[Paulclem]

Neck lengthening among kayan people is a body modification related to beauty. Do you think liposuction or liposculpture not a body modification related to beauty? You really need to read surveys why Americans undergo plastic surgeries. three things always come out: job, marriage, self-esteem.

In my country, if you abandon your old parents even in an eldercare facility, you are considered irresponsible, ungrateful, cruel, abusive son or daughter your neighbors will not respect. See, if I don't think in an anthropological way, I can't understand the practice in America in which ageing parents are left by their children in the eldercare facilities.

When I say anthropological way, I don't mean this is equal to that. It means cultural relativity--what is bad or ugly for some is good or beautiful for others. Cultural relativity is not applicable to rape. Rape is bad and ugly for all except for rapists.

I know nothing about Kayan people.

I know that body sculpting is related to beauty, but this is a world away from female circumcision. For some it is a pressure, for others an aspiration. The difference being that no-one is forced in the same way. I know about the pressures, but this is different to mutilation.

You call it elderly abandonment, but it cvould easily be called 24 hour care. it depends upon the institution and circumstances of the family. it doesn't involve physical cruelty unless the carers are criminal.

I know what you mean by cultural relativity. Things that cause suffering like female circumcision and all the other negative cultural practices that involve pain and suffering don't qualify to be considered as culturally relative. they are simply inhumane. The difference between that and beauty surgery and placing the elderly in homes is that the examples you gave are not inherently cruel. it depends upon the person and other factors such as family and pressures - if there is any cruelty at all - whereas female circumcision and rape are inherently cruel.

[miyako73]

I won't be answering from now on. I'll just post articles.


November 30, 2007, 6:49 am

A New Debate on Female Circumcision
By JOHN TIERNEY

Should African women be allowed to engage in the practice sometimes called female circumcision? Are critics of this practice, who call it female genital mutilation, justified in trying to outlaw it, or are they guilty of ignorance and cultural imperialism?

Those questions will be debated Saturday morning in Washington at the American Anthropological Association’s annual meeting. Representatives of international groups opposed to this procedure will be debating anthropologists with somewhat different views, including African anthropologists who have undergone the procedure themselves. As the organizers of the AAA panel note:

The panel includes for the first time, the critical “third wave” or multicultural feminist perspectives of circumcised African women scholars Wairimu Njambi, a Kenyan, and Fuambai Ahmadu, a Sierra Leonean. Both women hail from cultures where female and male initiation rituals are the norm and have written about their largely positive and contextualized experiences, creating an emergent discursive space for a hitherto “muted group” in global debates about FGC [female genital cutting].
Dr. Ahmadu, a post-doctoral fellow at the University of Chicago, was raised in America and then went back to Sierra Leone as an adult to undergo the procedure along with fellow members of the Kono ethnic group. She has argued that the critics of the procedure exaggerate the medical dangers, misunderstand the effect on sexual pleasure, and mistakenly view the removal of parts of the clitoris as a practice that oppresses women. She has lamented that her Westernized “feminist sisters insist on denying us this critical aspect of becoming a woman in accordance with our unique and powerful cultural heritage.” In another essay, she writes:

It is difficult for me — considering the number of ceremonies I have observed, including my own — to accept that what appears to be expressions of joy and ecstatic celebrations of womanhood in actuality disguise hidden experiences of coercion and subjugation. Indeed, I offer that the bulk of Kono women who uphold these rituals do so because they want to — they relish the supernatural powers of their ritual leaders over against men in society, and they embrace the legitimacy of female authority and particularly the authority of their mothers and grandmothers.

You can read more about this in Dr. Ahmadu’s essays or in this critique of the global campaign against female genital mutilation, written by another participant in Saturday’s discussion, Richard Shweder of the University of Chicago.

Dr. Shweder says that many Westerners trying to impose a “zero tolerance” policy don’t realize that these initiation rites are generally controlled not by men but by women who believe it is a cosmetic procedure with aesthetic benefits. He criticizes Americans and Europeans for outlawing it at the same they endorse their own forms of genital modification, like the circumcision of boys or the cosmetic surgery for women called “vaginal rejuvenation.” After surveying studies of female circumcision and comparing the data with the rhetoric about its harmfulness, Dr. Shweder concludes that “‘First World’ feminist issues and political correctness and activism have triumphed over the critical assessment of evidence.”

If I were asked to make a decision about my own daughter, I wouldn’t choose circumcision for her. But what about the question raised by these anthropologists: Should outsiders be telling African women what initiation practices are acceptable?

[miyako73]

This is what Carlos Londono Sulkin, an anthropologist, said about female Circumcision.


"Anthropological and other social scientific empirical research on the nitty-gritty of everyday talk and other aspects of social life – like Fuambai Ahmadu’s studies of understandings and practices of excision – are particularly well suited to make edifying contributions to liberal causes. Many anthropologists, reacting against collectivist social theories and some of the less felicitous entailments of cultural relativism, have joined in the condemnation of female circumcision without first taking counsel from our discipline’s methodological requirement actually to pay attention to what the people we write about say and do about this or that, over an extended period. Listening to Ahmadu, I can no longer condemn the practices of genital cutting in general, nor would I be willing to sign a zerotolerance petition."

Anthropology, Liberalism and Female Genital Cutting (2009)

[Paulclem]

Someone who actually saw FGM wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/18/female-genital-mutilation-circumcision-indonesia

A quote from the next article:

The provisional constitution, (of Somalia) states: "Circumcision of girls is a cruel and degrading customary practice, and is tantamount to torture. The circumcision of girls is prohibited."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/aug/17/female-genital-mutilation-banned-somalia

There is an account in this article by a woman who had FGM done.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/feb/17/reversing-female-genital-mutilation

It seems that we could continue with the anthropologists v reporters/ women who have had it done/ people who think it is an abhorrent practice battle. What is clear in the articles, and in the accounts I had heard on TV from women who were campaigning against it, (and who had had the procedure), is that the micro-society they come from may endorse it, which is where your cultural relativism comes in, but that it is an unnecessary and barbaric pracice.

[miyako73]

This whipping ritual where women are whipped and wounded by men is also barbaric, cruel, and violent. Will I condemn it? Nope. We have bloody practices in my country worse than this like self-flagelation and crucifying humans. Are they crimes? Nope. Are they traditions? Yes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26cH8c0dnv0

[MarkBastable]

You are complicating things. I still have to find a culture that does not sanction rape. Even honor killing is a criminal offence in places that practice it, but it is so culturally entrenched that it is hard to eradicate totally.

It's a suspect why you throw in altruism beside rape... are you introducing the biological justification of rape? Let's not go there.


No. I'm analysing things.

Let's try it again, then - without the exemplar of altruism, and without the specific of rape.

You imply that there's

1) some objective characteristic that can be applied to categorise all practices as either (a) 'outside cultural context' or (b) 'contextual to the prevailing culture'
and
2) some objective morality that can be applied to categorise the 'outside cultural context' practices as either 'good' or 'bad'

The problem with that, I think, is that your logic suggests that categorisation (2) can only be applied to category (1a), because - as you have said - 'good' and 'bad' doesn't apply to category (1b).

But most people would suggest that (2) can be applied to any any practice, regardless of (1).

However, if you're right, it does beg the question of where we get the criteria for (2), if not from our own cultural context.

[miyako73]

I think you committed a falacy here. I don't suggest anything that resembles to the notion that the outsider's view of a culture (etic) is either good or bad. In anthropology, we value the insider's view of a culture more (emic). Anthropologists--those who strictly adhere to relativity of cultural practices--don't judge if something is bad or good. Rape is not a cultural practice so it is beyond the dichotomy between etic and emic. It is a phenomenon that is sanctioned across cultures and societies. So generally it is bad and ugly a sociocultural transgression. You cannot really say it is good and beautiful to some communities because there are no communities that do not sanction it.

When I said what is bad to some is good to others, I'm just showing you the simplest explanation of cultural relativity if we look at a culture with an outside point of view and our own subjective lens. Eating worms is yucky to you because you don't belong to a food culture that finds worms yummy.

[mona amon]

I'm confused here - the five year old girl who has her external genitalia cut off with a rusty blade, and if she survives the torture and infection, suffers pain, urinary tract problems and complete loss of sexual feeling for the rest of her life - does she belong to the culture that finds it yummy or the culture that finds it yucky?


I won't be answering from now on. I'll just post articles. - Miyako

Great. And I'll play the world's tiniest little violin for you. :nopity:

[miyako73]

I'm confused here - the five year old girl who has her external genitalia cut off with a rusty blade, and if she survives the torture and infection, suffers pain, urinary tract problems and complete loss of sexual feeling for the rest of her life - does she belong to the culture that finds it yummy or the culture that finds it yucky?



Great. And I'll play the world's tiniest little violin for you. :nopity:

It's obvious you haven't read the female circumcision articles I posted. There are intellectuals from the communities that practice female circumcision who defend the practice as part of their cultural self-determination. You see it as violent and cruel; well, they don't. Here's another article for you.



March 19, 2008, 11:50 am
A Compromise on Female “Circumcision”
By JOHN TIERNEY
Since I invited researchers to debate female initiation rites in Africa, we’ve heard from social scientists based in Chicago, Italy, England, Nigeria and Sweden. I’ve saved the last word in this round of essays for the anthropologist with the most direct knowledge of this topic: Fuambai Ahmadu, a native of Sierra Leone, who grew up in America and then went back to her homeland as an adult to undergo the rite along with fellow members of the Kono ethnic group.

Dr. Ahmadu, a post-doctoral fellow at the University of Chicago, has previously published essays on the practice she calls female circumcision. In this essay, she reviews the debate here on the Lab and suggests a compromise that would protect girls and women from undergoing procedures without their consent, but she is critical of those who advocate “zero tolerance” and who refer to these surgeries as female genital mutilation:

I found some of the commentaries quite interesting and most of them unsurprising, given much of the media sensationalizing and vilification of female circumcision practices over the past thirty years. Much of the horror expressed seems to be based on erroneous presumptions about the clitoris and female sexuality. The fact is, as Dr. Catania has courageously come forward with in the publication of her research findings, that many women who have undergone varying forms and degrees of genital modification can and do experience sexual enjoyment and orgasms. Of course, some don’t. The same holds for uncircumcised women; many experience orgasms and a good number don’t. What this suggests is that (female) sexuality is as much a cultural construct as ideas about sex and gender and we need to revisit some of the received wisdom of western folk models of (female) sexual pleasure.

I also take note of readers’ concerns about consent. While I have serious issues with the concept of consent and how it is applied asymmetrically to African practices of female genital cutting, I do agree with Rick Shweder that a possible way forward would be to consider limiting certain types of genital cutting to an age of majority, for instance, the age at which a girl can consent to marriage, abortion or to cosmetic surgery. A minor procedure can be allowed for girls under the age of consent, as is the case with infant male circumcision. Defining what such a minor procedure would entail and what might be the appropriate ages of consent is an important step that must include the voices of the “silent majority” of women who are affected.

What western audiences rarely see and anti-FGM activists would prefer them not to see is the fact that many circumcised women who support their tradition are healthy (conditions of dire economic poverty, notwithstanding), lead sexually fulfilling lives and they as well their partners quite like their circumcised bodies. Then, there are some who (like some circumcised men) feel emotionally, psychologically and physically traumatized by their experiences. As Dr. Catania has pointed out and my own research among African immigrant women in Washington, D.C. confirms, it is usually the younger generation of circumcised girls and women who report experiences of sexual anxieties or dysfunction. This is due to what Catania refers to as “mental infibulation,” a provocative metaphor, as Shweder noted, which describes the feelings and experiences of shame, disfigurement and inferiority that these young women are made to endure as a result of the dehumanizing media representations and western social criticisms of their bodies and cultural practices.

The way forward is to look for solutions that would empower women (and men) to choose what to do with their own bodies. So, I will end here with a summary of some of the points I made at the 2007 public policy forum on FGC at the annual meeting of the American Anthropological Association.

My position is “pro-choice” on any form of female and male genital modifications (with the exception of minor cuts, such as circumcisions of male and female prepuce discussed above) and a complete rejection of the motto “zero-tolerance of FGM”. I am concerned that current U.S. and global polices on African forms of female genital surgeries discriminate against the bulk of circumcised women because of their social, ethnic, cultural and gender identity. This is made possible because of the high levels of illiteracy and low socio-economic status of circumcised women in sub-Saharan Africa as well as the sociopolitical disenfranchisement they face as immigrants in western countries. In particular, I am concerned about the official and exclusive reservation of the term “mutilation” to describe circumcised African women. Not only is this institutionalized discrimination but it is personally offensive to the majority of circumcised African women and to the cultures which practice female (and male) initiation.

It is possible to imagine alternative approaches, which would: 1/ validate the positive experiences of the majority of circumcised African women; 2/ recognize the rights of circumcised African women to self-determination; 3/ promote the equality of circumcised women in “underdeveloped” countries of sub-Sahara Africa with uncircumcised women in “developed” western countries; 4/ modify laws, policies and terminologies such as FGM that prejudice circumcised African women because of their social, ethnic and cultural identity, their general lack of formal western education and low socio-economic status (although, as Rick Shweder and others have pointed out, this is not the case for many infibulated women in Egypt, Sudan and Somalia who are well-educated, wealthy and hail from elite families) or in short, because of their difference and inequality vis-à-vis western women. I am referring here especially to western women’s cosmetic vaginal surgeries, the so-called designer vaginas and vaginal rejuvenations – some of which include cutting, trimming, reducing, reshaping the clitoris, labia minorae, surgical tightening of the vagina and even restoration of the hymen!

I also call for the protection of the rights of uncircumcised women in countries where female circumcision is the norm as well as the rights of circumcised women who choose to not circumcise their daughters, to abandon or even advocate against female circumcision. Although the vast majority of circumcised African women, like myself, take great cultural pride in our initiation there are clearly those among us who, for whatever reasons and there could be a number of reasons, do not share these positive experiences. So, I give my unequivocal support to such women working collectively for change that would protect them or their choice to opt out of this cultural practice. We can and must listen to women on all sides of this issue and promote policies that ensure equality, dignity, and justice for all women whatever our differences.
What do you think of Dr. Ahmadu’s ideas? Many readers have reacted to previous essays with blanket denunciations of these initation rites, often accompanied by assertions that reveal they haven’t even bothered to read the evidence from physicians and anthropologists presented in these essays. I hope we can get beyond angry generalizations and expressions of personal revulsion. Dr. Ahmadu has suggested a policy that would protect girls without banning these practices altogether. Is this a sensible compromise?

[mona amon]

It's obvious you haven't read the female circumcision articles I posted. There are intellectuals from the communities that practice female circumcision who defend the practice as part of their cultural self-determination. You see it as violent and cruel; well, they don't. Here's another article for you.

Now who's romanticizing? What an amazing ability you have to see only what you want to see, and turn a blind eye to everything else! The five year old I mentioned is not an example invented by me. She's no longer five, and she did survive and tell her story to the world. You can read it here http://www.fgmnetwork.org/articles/Waris.php

[miyako73]

How can I romanticize when I don't judge a culture or a cultural practice. Really? I'm posting these articles to show you how an objective mind of an anthropologist works. That's why I said beforehand that I would rather talk about rape than female circumcision--which I abhor personally but cannot criticize anthropologically. Now you're calling me a "romanticizer"? also as a trained anthropologist I want to see the change in the issue of female circumcision to come from inside (emic) rather than outside (etic).

You choose to side with those who want female circumcision banned totally. Anthropologists who stick to the sound practice of their discipline cannot choose the same stand you have because there are those who want female circumcision. Othering should not be the aim of anthropologists. What anthropologists do is connect the two opposing groups or views and find a compromise or let the change happen within.

[Paulclem]

I see you posting articlesbecause you can't argue the issue yourself. Putting up articles in support of your ideas really doesn't impress. I note that a few of your articles were 6 years old. Here is the UN's take on FGM:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/27/un-ban-female-genital-mutilation

Nov 2012. I wonder why the UN doesn't listen to this cultural relativism.

Anyway, all this is a distraction from the main debate which was all our criticism of rape in India.It was thought that your position seemed to criticise the whole culture as tolerating rape was more extreme. Is the problem inequality and the status of women which means that rape is unreported?

[qimissung]

I often add articles to support my arguments. I don't see anything wrong with that. However the whole female circumcision thing deserves it's own thread. Why not start one, Miyako? The topic of this one, as you pointed out, is the rape case in India.

[miyako73]

Well I post those articles because they have the names of the people whose writings you should be reading to understand the other half of the debate--like Dr. Ahmadu, who belongs to the community that practices female circumcision and supports it as a way for cultural self-determination. The funny thing is that I have tried to argue my points in an anthropological way because we are talking about culture. All you have are parroted stances of cultural imperialism and reported dramatics by outsiders.

Yes we should be talking about rape because there is no culture that sanctions it. Let's talk about it because it is bad, ugly, and criminal even to the eyes of anthropologists, and I have no qualm/dilemma in talking about it.

[MarkBastable]

<rape> is bad, ugly, and criminal even to the eyes of anthropologists, and I have no qualm/dilemma in talking about it.


As you have no qualms in talking about it - what is it that anthropologists dislike about rape?

[miyako73]

First, if it's a female anthropologist, the fact that she is a potential victim, she should hate that violent act. Why I hate rape? Because I was once a victim; aren't some of my poems obvious? Second, it ruins the dynamics in family, community, and society. Anthropologists know that the typical perpetrators of rape are the relatives of the victims. Third, anthropologists are law-abiding citizens too. If your grandmother doesn't want her tax money used to pamper a rapist, I too don't want my tax money wasted on such a beast.

Have you been raped and reported it to cops and been told "It's your fault because you want to be a woman"? I have. Is that honest enough?

[MarkBastable]

If it's a female anthropologist, the fact that she is a potential victim, she should hate that violent act. Why I hate rape? Because I was once a victim; aren't some of my poems obvious? Second, it ruins the dynamics in family, community, and society. Anthropologists know that the typical perpetrators of rape are the relatives of the victims. Anthropologists are law-abiding citizens too. If your grandmother doesn't want her tax money used to pamper a rapist, I too don't want my tax money wasted on such a beast.

Have you been raped and reported it to cops and been told "It's your fault because you want to be a woman"? I have.

Personal experience, then, and close personal identification with the victims. Understandable.

However, you're not considering FMG from the same standpoint.

(Incidentally, I wouldn't bring my grandmother's wishes into this. If it were up to my grandmother, I'd be at war with you, and anyone else who wasn't born within about two miles of her house.)

[miyako73]

FGM have supporters who do not want it banned. If anthropologists condemn FGM, they "other" those people who support it. Othering--the cardinal sin in anthropology-- is not the objective of anthropologists who adhere to the strict code of their profession. Got it?

Rape has no supporters but rapists. Why equate rape to FGM?

The perpetrators of FGM are women--mothers, sisters, aunts, grandmothers. The perpetrators of rape of women are men. Again, why equate the two?

[Delta40]

If men are the perpetrators and society (usually a male hierarchy) does nothing to stop it, why can't one argue that it is has cultural relativity? After all, the women are forced to marry them afterwards because culturally it is appropriate to do so. Are you going to argue with that too?

[mona amon]

How can I romanticize when I don't judge a culture or a cultural practice. Really? I'm posting these articles to show you how an objective mind of an anthropologist works. That's why I said beforehand that I would rather talk about rape than female circumcision--which I abhor personally but cannot criticize anthropologically. Now you're calling me a "romanticizer"? also as a trained anthropologist I want to see the change in the issue of female circumcision to come from inside (emic) rather than outside (etic).

You choose to side with those who want female circumcision banned totally. Anthropologists who stick to the sound practice of their discipline cannot choose the same stand you have because there are those who want female circumcision. Othering should not be the aim of anthropologists. What anthropologists do is connect the two opposing groups or views and find a compromise or let the change happen within.

I honestly don't understand your viewpoint even after so many posts, so I think I'd better stop with this post. I can understand that anthropologists don't make value judgements. Neither does any other scientific study. Surely there are numerous completely objective scientific studies of various aspects of the phenomenon of rape, murder, pedophilia and so on. However you (and that Dr. Ahmadu) have made value judgements by saying that the practice is not as bad as it seems. Anthropologists don't judge. But you both have done so.

[Paulclem]

Nov 2012. I wonder why the UN doesn't listen to this cultural relativism.



i was wondering about this, and I suggest that cultural relativism merely allows inhumane and damaging practices to continue whilst it is claimed that a less damaging practice is being done. Many people don't like change, don't like being told what to do, don't like their traditions to be questioned and will persist when all about have decided that they really should stop now.

Your relativist Fuambai Ahmadu in the article in in support of it only with provisos - which i would suggest would be difficult if not impossible to monitor. Perhaps the UN thought an outright ban was the only way forward.

While I have serious issues with the concept of consent and how it is applied asymmetrically to African practices of female genital cutting,

The way forward is to look for solutions that would empower women (and men) to choose what to do with their own bodies.

My position is “pro-choice” on any form of female and male genital modifications

The concept of consent? For women in some countries? It's ok if they choose to do it, but as the Guardian articles I posted show, it's often about underage girls and compulsion.

[miyako73]

It is your problem if you can't understand this one:

FGM have supporters who do not want it banned. If anthropologists condemn FGM, they "other" those people who support it. Othering--the cardinal sin in anthropology-- is not the objective of anthropologists who adhere to the strict code of their profession.

Anthropologists are expected to be always neutral when they study two opposing forces in a culture.

[Paulclem]

It is your problem if you can't understand this one:

FGM have supporters who do not want it banned. If anthropologists condemn FGM, they "other" those people who support it. Othering--the cardinal sin in anthropology-- is not the objective of anthropologists who adhere to the strict code of their profession.

Anthropologists are expected to be always neutral when they study two opposing forces in a culture.

I think it is the anthropologists' problem. Some things are just not to be taken neutrally. That is clearly the UN's position.

[miyako73]

Have you checked what countries have the veto power in the United nations?

Dr.Ahmadu wants compromise, and she wants the change to happen within not from the cultural imperialists. Dr. Ahmadu, afterall, is a circumcised anthropologist.

[miyako73]

I think it is the anthropologists' problem. Some things are just not to be taken neutrally. That is clearly the UN's position.

That's for Mona, Paulclem.

If you want to talk about culture and cannot argue anthropologically, you better shut up. I would shut up too if you talk about genetics and I cannot argue with you biologically.

Cultural is sociological; sociological is not necessarily cultural.

In a complacent multicultural society, one cannot say that complacency is cultural. Maybe it's out of fear and hopelessness that they are complacent.

[Paulclem]

What do others think? Are the anthropologists right?

I have to say the cultural relativism aspect has been interesting, and I can see where it stops judgement by nations on others' practices. In the case of FGM, I think they are wrong.

[MarkBastable]

If it's a female anthropologist...

What's the gender of the anthropologist got to do with it?





The perpetrators of FGM are women--mothers, sisters, aunts, grandmothers. The perpetrators of rape of women are men. Again, why equate the two?

What's the gender of the perpetrator got to do with it?

[mona amon]

What do others think? Are the anthropologists right?

I have to say the cultural relativism aspect has been interesting, and I can see where it stops judgement by nations on others' practices. In the case of FGM, I think they are wrong.

The issue at hand (the rightness or wrongness of FGM) has nothing to do with anthropology. The anthropologist's job is to study and understand the culture, not to make judgements. It is not the job of the anthropologist to condemn, condone, commend or prescribe. But life is not just anthropology, and there's no reason why others can't use the findings of the anthropologist for these purposes.

As for Fuambai Ahmadu's comments on FGM - what a load of bullcrap. Anthropology, my foot. She's a Chicago born woman exploiting her ethnicity to get a wee bit of fame by the easy route of supporting something reactionary or shocking. And it's a sad state of political correctness the world has reached if we cannot call her out for it just because she's of African origin and uses words like "racist" "colonialist" "ethnocentric" "cultural relativism" blah blah.

A bit more about Ahamadu - I really couldn't find much - no Wikipedia article or anything, and all news items date back to 2007 and deal with the same conference (or something). Looks like she hasn't made much of an impact after all. Also, she was not a victim of FGM. She underwent some genital cutting of her own free will when she was an adult, and no one knows just how much or how little she had nipped off. It's like a full grown woman trying to justify the torture and mutilation of a child by going for a liposuction.

As for Cultural Relativism - it's useful and necessary in the understanding of cultural practices, but we need to make a difference between those things that seem abhorrent to us because of our ethnocentricity, and those things that are abhorrent to us because of our common humanity. Some things are moral absolutes. Slavery, murder, rape, torture and mutilation are just bad, whichever way we look at it. Take Sati, for example. It was once practiced by certain peoples in the western part of India. No one knows when or how it started, but foreign conquerers, who generally leave local traditions alone, found this particular practice too barbaric to be ignored, and after a long history of banning and opposition from people outside the culture - the Mughal conquerers and British, Portuguese and Dutch colonists, the practice was eventually eradicated.

[Volya]

Just saw in the newspapers: The lawyer representing the rapists has said that the man who was with the girl was 'wholly responsible' because an unmarried couple should not be on the streets at night.

[MarkBastable]

I'm with Mona.

[mona amon]

Thanks, Mark!

Volya, I hadn't heard about it yet. That's really sad and despicable.

[miyako73]

After female circumcision, are you going to move beyond vagina?

Are you going to condemn neck-lenghtening because it causes discomfot and orthhopedic problems to women?

8593

Are you going to condem lip-plating because it ruins a woman's face and makes her unable to eat properly?

8594


When will your cultural imperialism end? Let them change their ways if they want. It's their lives for god's sake. They are not victims of ethnocide or something that the world should speak against. They don't need our definition or characterization of their culture. They are practicing their culture. Leave them alone.

If rape is a cultural practice, I'll leave the rapists alone and their victims. But it's a different thing. Every culture I know sanctions it.

[miyako73]

Cultural imperialists, why are you only condemning female circumcision? How about male cicumcision?

Let me tell you my experience when I had it (that was way before I had sex change)

a boy's penis is pulled, a knife is inserted into the pouchy penile skin with its sharp edge facing up, and a wood is used to strike the stretched skin to make a cut.

The full healing is two weeks. The first week is like hell: a boy cannot walk properly; his penis looks and bulges like a tomato; it hurts like no other; and if there's a severe infection, the entire penis will be gone.

After the healing, the pain from the cut nerves continue. the head of the penis hurts when it hits the rough surface of the underwear. for months, it will be uncomfotable.

Benefits? nothing

Uncircumcised men have better orgasm and extra protection and have no traumatic penile cutting experience.

Do you want me to condemn this practice? I would say the same: personally I abhor it, but I cannot condemn it anthropologically. Most of my countrymen expect their sons, grandsons, and brothers to undergo such initiation rite, do you want to meddle in their cultural expectation and practice that define them?

Are there people who condemn it? A lot, but they are not listened to. Lots of people also condemn crucifying humans and self-flaggelation during lent, but the practitioners of such spiritual sacrifices ignore even the Vatican.

Do I think male circumcision will go away in the future? I do as new generations of educated masses will have their own views and practices of culture. Definitely it will not go away because United Nations or you, cultural imperialists, say so.

[miyako73]

Mona, go back to your anthropological readings or read Indian news about sati. In 2006, a lot of sati cases appeared in Indian papers. You talked about Mughals and "Britishers" as if Sati was totally gone. Sati still happens in secret and in rural areas. That is the result when the change does not totally comes from within. anthropologists know that pretty well. That's why any cultural change should not come from the cultural imperialists.

[WyattGwyon]

Mona amon — Your longer post in this thread today was brilliant. Thanks.

[Volya]

I really don't understand what you're trying to say miyako. If a culture thinks something is ok, they should be allowed to do it even if it hurts other people? You're not making any sense.

[miyako73]

You won't understand because you don't have an "anthropological mind" that would rather describe a cultural practice holistically than judge whether it's bad or good.

[miyako73]

The danger of judging a culture:


If a Hindu kills a Christian Indian or an American Baptist missionary who slaughters a cow so he can grill steak, will you condem that Hindu who judges the beef-eating practice of that Christian Indian or that American Baptist missionary as bad and against his cultural practice of not eating beef?

Yes this scenario happens and has happened. Anthropologists are familiar of this violent judging of other people's cultural practices.

[Volya]

You won't understand because you don't have an "anthropological mind" that would rather describe a cultural practice holistically than judge whether it's bad or good.

If having an 'anthropological mind' means letting people be abused just because their culture says it's ok, then I'm sure glad I don't have one.

[miyako73]

To you, female circumcision is abuse, but not to Dr. Ahmadu, an African woman who is circumcised and has a different view about her cultural practice of female circumcision, and her supporters. In anthropology we listen to the stories and views of the people who are from inside not outside when we do ethnography. Should I value your opinion about Dr. Ahmadu's culture more? You, white, male, Caucasian and American maybe? No.

As an anthropologist, I am more inclined to study and describe female cicumcision according to the inputs of those who belong to the community or culture that practices it. I will include pros and cons, negative and positive views, and those who are for and against. It's up to the people in that community or culture that practices it to decide whether they need to change or not.

There are so many culture-related problems the world should be talking about. Some are more pressing than female circumcision like the torture and killing of child "witches" in Nigeria and the killing of albinos and trading of their body parts in Tanzania.



Debate on Female Circumcision in Africa takes center stage at American Anthropological Association Annual Meeting in San Francisco

By: SEM Contributor on November 15, 2012.



“How can Western public health officials, global health institutions and feminist organizations maintain a straight face in condemning African female genital surgeries as FGM and yet turn a blind eye, even issue guidelines for the performance of very similar and sometimes more invasive female genital surgeries on Western women under the guise of cosmetic surgery?”

This argument was highlighted on Wednesday by Sierra Leonean medical and symbolic anthropologist Fuambai S. Ahmadu, PhD at the commencement of the 111th Annual Meeting of The American Anthropological Association (AAA) held at the San Francisco Hilton (Union Square) in San Francisco, California.

This year’s program which runs from November 14 – 18, 2012 features 717 sessions, 34 workshops, 13 innovative events and 183 special events.

Dr Ahmadu, who is also a senior research fellow and public health advisor at the Office of the Vice President in The Republic of Sierra Leone and a staunch advocate of female circumcision organized a special session yesterday titled THE PRACTICE THAT CAN’T BE NAMED: A PUBLIC HEALTH POLICY ADVISORY ON FEMALE GENITAL SURGERIES IN AFRICA.

During her presentation: Free to Choose? Unraveling Gender, Power and Sexuality in Global Policies Concerning African Female Genital Mutilation Versus Western Female Genital, Dr Ahmadu maintained “the question of choice, our freedom to choose what to do with our own bodies has become all the more poignant in the last few years, given the sudden rise in demand for genital modifications by Western women that, at least in terms of final appearance and psychosexual motivations, are very similar to the procedures labeled by WHO as Female Genital Mutilation and declared as a human rights violation.”

The 111th Annual Meeting of the AAA commenced a day after the Hastings Center Public Policy Advisory Network on FSG in Africa – an informal group of anthropologists, feminists, geographical legal scholars, medical researchers, and physicians with expert knowledge about female genital surgeries in Africa who claim that they are concerned about the accuracy, objectivity, fairness, and balance of current media representations of the practice released a policy statement “Western media coverage of female genital surgeries in Africa called ‘hyperbolic’ and one sided.”

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) as it is widely called by its opponents is a very contentious issue. The United Nations and its agency the World Health Organization (WHO) describe the practice as procedures that intentionally alter or cause injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons or provide any health benefits for girls and women and can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later cysts, infections, infertility as well as complications in childbirth increased risk of newborn deaths

According to WHO, FGM is a violation of the human rights of girls and women they say the practice which is “nearly always carried out on minors” is not only a violation of the rights of children but also “violates a person’s rights to health, security and physical integrity, the right to be free from torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, and the right to life when the procedure results in death.”

As part of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigration Responsibility Act of 1996.17, the United States Congress on September 30, 1996 enacted a provision criminalizing the practice of FGM. The law provides that “whoever knowingly circumcises, excises, or infibulates the whole or any part of the labia majora or labia minora or clitoris of another person under the age of 18 years shall be fined or imprisoned for 5 years.”

Meanwhile, at her closing statement Dr. Ahmad challenged public health researchers or practitioners to disseminate information based on evidence and accuracy “that reflect real risks and benefits; and, for heaven’s sake, we need to stop judging, demonizing and criminalizing African women for upholding their culture while rewarding Western predominantly male doctors who appropriate, rebrand and gain financially from African women’s ancestral traditions and at the expense of Western women’s own sexual insecurities.”

WHO estimates about 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM, approximately 92 million girls 10 years old and above have undergone circumcision in Africa.

By Dennis Kabatto

[Paulclem]

They are practicing their culture. .

I would say that "culture" is being practised upon them, as it is clear that, as Dr Ahmadi says, choice is an issue, and many - or perhaps most? - don't have a choice.

[Paulclem]

Mona amon — Your longer post in this thread today was brilliant. Thanks.

I agree. the point about Sati was very well made, and Miyako's rejoinder that it is underground rather supports the idea that nothing less than an outright ban will do, as even that does not guarrantee that will stop, let alone the kind of half hearted measures Dr Ahmadi was on about.

[miyako73]

This is how it should be done. Let the insiders change by themselves. Even though Teri is not a Massai, the school she founded is run by the Massais who educate mothers and daughters regarding female circumcision.

If you are really that rabid against female circumcision, donate to African Schools in Kenya, so they can educate more mothers and daughters and include everyone in their communities to move forward with this change.

Here's the website: http://askenya.org/donate.php

Words are cheap. Donate now. Prove you can also do what you say or type.

This kind of change is more meaningful and lasting than the ones proposed by American NGO's, United Nations, and Hilary Clinton.




Maasai Women End Traditional Female Circumcision





Two-day ceremony marks end of genital mutilation for 52 young Maasai girls

By Denise Darcel
Epoch Times StaffCreated: October 3, 2012Last Updated: October 7, 2012.


In a traditional two-day ceremony in Kenya, the Maasai, one of the oldest cultures in Africa, changed the fate of 52 young girls in a historic alternative rite of passage performed without female circumcision.

Maasai men and women who accepted the new ceremony took a monumental leap forward in health and education for their culture, causing reactions across the globe.

Three Maasai women were selected by the African Schools of Kenya (ASK) to talk with the girls about issues ranging from their basic human rights as young women to reasons for using birth control.

Meals were prepared and delivered to the girls, and they stayed together overnight in the classroom on Aug. 27.

“There was no holding back on the information given to the 52 girls attending the first Alternative Rites of Passage without cutting,” said Teri Gabrielsen, founder of ASK, which funds educational courses in Africa.

The 52 girls, including the chief’s own daughters, paraded through their village early Saturday morning wearing their traditional all-black dresses and crowns, slowly walking to the school room for the very first two-day ARP ceremony.


Special recognition was given to the four cutters: They each received a milking goat for their willingness to participate in the ceremony and for supporting the “non-circumcision” of the girls.

On day two, the mothers helped their daughters get dressed in their traditional ceremonial dresses and crowns. The two-day ARP ended with ceremonial dancing, a feast, and the presentation of certificates acknowledging each girl entering womanhood without being circumcised.

Female circumcision, widely known as female genital mutilation (FGM), is illegal in Kenya and is punishable by law, yet it is still practiced in many countries worldwide.

Many regions in Africa and some countries in Asia and the Middle East widely practice the ritualistic procedure, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).

Traditionally, young women who had not yet been circumcised were ostracized by their peers. The women who had endured the unlawful procedure were considered acceptable members of society and were deemed suitable for marriage, as it increased their value in the community because the procedure is considered to be customary.

Instruments traditionally used to perform the cut are sharp metal tools, knives, and other crude objects, and the procedure is usually not carried out by trained medical professionals. The effects of FGM can severely burden the women and often bring on medical complications, placing additional obstacles on the health services and systems in their countries.

The physical pain resulting from the practice has immeasurable psychological impact on these young girls, who look to the adults as well as their peers for solutions. This year, educated Maasai women are avoiding the risk of the physical and psychological damage associated with female circumcision by participating in the first ARP of its kind.

Tonte Ikoluba is a tribal descendant of a family who practiced the age-old custom of circumcision in Nigeria. She is from the Ijaw tribe and is now a social worker living in New York. Ikoluba participated in the ritualistic rites of passage at the age of 13 with great trepidation.

“I was 13 years old when I was circumcised, and both of my parents as well as my grandmother were with me and they prepared me for the traditional ceremony,” said Ikoluba.

“I knew it was something that had to be done, but I was scared because some people died or got very sick afterward. I was told by my family that I could not be a full woman until my male part was cut off.

“Some people ran away and so I wanted to run away, but my mother assured me that I should not be scared. She said she would hold my hand and that I would be okay.”

Ikoluba described her experience of being circumcised, saying that while she was being cut, she felt as if she was going to die. She described the complications that came after the procedure.

“It was very painful to urinate after the cutting. I had infections and fever and lots of nightmares. I later found out that a lot of girls did not go through with it and they turned out to be okay,” said Ikoluba.

“I felt tricked. I was told I was going to be a complete woman and then found out they actually made me incomplete. I am now missing something important—my womanhood.”

According to H. Scott, a registered nurse and maternity nurse in New York City, “FGM is a horror and the more enlightenment shed upon this ritual, the better. I have had my share of labor patients who have suffered this atrocity and they suffer that much more during delivery when their scar tissue tears. Some have to be c-sectioned. … Makes my heart cry.”

As the suffering of young women continues to surface in cultural hamlets across the globe, studies and personal opinion continue to find no sensible reason for female circumcision, considering it to be an act of violence against women.

According to the WHO website, it is estimated that 100 million–140 million women and girls have already been subjected to some form of FGM.

Ikoluba is a resident volunteer for the Campaign Against Female Genital Mutilation (CAGeM) in New York City. New York State has the second largest population of FGM victims next to California, according to the CAGeM website.

“Female mutilation is against the law, but people are still dying from it,” said Ikoluba. “Just earlier this year, one girl died from the bleeding and her sister ran away from our village to come to a CAGeM shelter because she was next in line. They just ignore the law. Nobody goes to jail, nobody gets arrested.

“I recently attended a conference in New York hosted by CAGeM . I heard them talk about a free surgery and hospital service for victims of FGM. I did some research on my own and found that I could regain feeling and reduce the pain by having the surgery. Until then, I never knew I would be able to feel complete again. I know I can never be 100 percent complete, but I want to be as close to it as possible.”

Ikoluba applied for the waiting list for the surgery. She did some fundraising with the Restoring the Rose Walkathon in New York, and she was put on the waiting list in December.

With the influx of immigrants that come to the United States from countries that continue the practice, girls who become United States citizens are at risk of family pressure to perform their native cultural rites of passage.

A study in the United Kingdom is mapping the current situation and trends of FGM in 27 European Union member states and Croatia. The study was launched this year upon the request of EU commissioner Viviane Reding, according to the European Institute for Gender Equality website (EIGE).

The triumphant stand of the young Maasai girls may send a message of change to families who are weighing the facts against the myths and current findings about the practice in their own rites of passage ceremonies.

Gabrielsen of ASK, Maasai elder and director of ASK chief James Ole Kamente, local grassroots organization Voices of Hope, and a resident nurse from Loitokitok General Hospital in Kenya all fully participated in an ARP ceremony, leading in making a change in the current practice of female circumcision and the eradication of the practice entirely.

[MarkBastable]

Still waiting for an answer to this, by the way....



Originally Posted by miyako73
If it's a female anthropologist...


What's the gender of the anthropologist got to do with it?


Originally Posted by miyako73
The perpetrators of FGM are women--mothers, sisters, aunts, grandmothers. The perpetrators of rape of women are men. Again, why equate the two?

What's the gender of the perpetrator got to do with it?

[miyako73]

if you need someone to tell you that rape is a gender-related crime, I don't want to waste my time. Go educate yourself.

[MarkBastable]

if you need someone to tell you that rape is a gender-related crime, I don't want to waste my time. Go educate yourself.

According to you, so is FGM.

Originally Posted by miyako73
The perpetrators of FGM are women--mothers, sisters, aunts, grandmothers. The perpetrators of rape of women are men


So what difference does it make?

[miyako73]

That's why you cannot compare an apple to an orange.

The perpetrators of female circumcision are women. The perpetrators of rape of women are men.


Why the gender of the perpetrators are important? So you will know the target in case you think of solutions. Telling men in Kenya to change their mysogynistic ways will not necessarilly stop female circumcision. Giving livelihood to those women who are clit-cutters is better.

[Volya]

I'm still struggling to understand your viewpoint miyako. You have posted comments about how horrible FGM is, how it damages women, and how dangerous it is. Yet you still think it is ok if their culture says it is?

[MarkBastable]

That's why you cannot compare an apple to an orange.

The perpetrators of female circumcision are women. The perpetrators of rape of women are men.


Why the gender of the perpetrators are important? So you will know the target in case you think of solutions. Telling men in Kenya to change their mysogynistic ways will not necessarilly stop female circumcision. Giving livelihood to those women who are clit-cutters is better.


When you wrote about the gender of the perpetrators, you weren't talking about how to stop it. You were talking about why rape was universally bad, and FGM was cuturally acceptable. Why does the gender of the perpetrator make any difference to whether or not the practice is acceptable?

[miyako73]

Did I say "it's okay, if their culture says it is"?

Can you post where I said that?

I said I could not anthropologically condemn it, because, being an anthropologist, othering those people who want female circumcision is not what I have learned in anthropology.

I also said repeatedly that I want to see the change from within a la the Massai case not from the cultural imperialists.

Answer this:

If a Hindu fanatic hurts you, a white American who loves In-and-Out double-double, when he sees you grilling beef, do you think that's okay? That Hindu judges your beef-eating habit or food culture to be bad and against his culture. That's the danger of judging one's cultural practice using an outsider's view or standard.

See, we anthropologists spouse peaceful coexistence or compromise in the form of synthesis or assimilation than social or cultural tension that always results to conflict.

[MarkBastable]

I'm sorry. I did put that badly.

You were talking about why rape was universally bad, and why as an antropologist you could not condemn FGM. Why does the gender of the perpetrator make any difference? To put it another way, if the cultural norm was that men carried out FGM, would it change your view as an anthropologist?

[miyako73]

When you wrote about the gender of the perpetrators, you weren't talking about how to stop it. You were talking about why rape was universally bad, and FGM was cuturally acceptable. Why does the gender of the perpetrator make any difference to whether or not the practice is acceptable?

I think you have a problem understanding what you read. here's what I wrote:


"The perpetrators of FGM are women--mothers, sisters, aunts, grandmothers. The perpetrators of rape of women are men. Again, why equate the two? "

in response to your statement about my stand against rape:


"However, you're not considering FMG from the same standpoint."


You wanted me to treat apples and oranges as same fruits with no difference. Maybe this elementary analogy will work.

[miyako73]

Some commenters are funny. One commenter got pissed after I said female circumcision is not a problem in India, yet she shut up when Mona said it is unheard of in India. Just wondering. It seems to me some just want to attack the person not the idea or point of view.

[MarkBastable]

I think you have a problem understanding what you read. here's what I wrote:


"The perpetrators of FGM are women--mothers, sisters, aunts, grandmothers. The perpetrators of rape of women are men. Again, why equate the two? "

in response to your statement about my stand against rape:


"However, you're not considering FMG from the same standpoint."


You wanted me to treat apples and oranges as same fruits with no difference. Maybe this elementary analogy will work.

Firstly, please don't patronise me.

Secondly, I believed your argument was that rape was bad regardless of cultural context, and that FMG was culturally-contextual and, from an anthropological standpoint, should not be judged.

My question, then, was: if these are the categorisations, what has the gender of the perpetrators got to do with it? Is gender a criterion for the categorisation as either 'outside cultural context' or 'culturally contextual? If it is, how? And if it isn't, in what way is gender relevant?

The standpoint thing we'll come back to, if you like.

[miyako73]

"My question, then, was: if these are the categorisations, what has the gender of the perpetrators got to do with it? Is gender a criterion for the categorisation as either 'outside cultural context' or 'culturally contextual? If it is, how? And if it isn't, in what way is gender relevant?"

No, gender is just the characterization of the perpetrators that will help us determine what's a cultural practice and what's a criminal act.
Women circumcise girls because they are "socially females" that have to play by the social rules (no woman clit-cutter orgasms when she cuts; circumcising a girl is not due to the wim of a clit-cutter) and men rape women because their victims are "physically females" with vaginas that make them salivate (if they are men, do you think they will be raped?).

[Volya]

Did I say "it's okay, if their culture says it is"?

Can you post where I said that?

I said I could not anthropologically condemn it, because, being an anthropologist, othering those people who want female circumcision is not what I have learned in anthropology.

I also said repeatedly that I want to see the change from within a la the Massai case not from the cultural imperialists.

Answer this:

If a Hindu fanatic hurts you, a white American who loves In-and-Out double-double, when he sees you grilling beef, do you think that's okay? That Hindu judges your beef-eating habit or food culture to be bad and against his culture. That's the danger of judging one's cultural practice using an outsider's view or standard.

See, we anthropologists spouse peaceful coexistence or compromise in the form of synthesis or assimilation than social or cultural tension that always results to conflict.

What's the difference between anthropologically condemn and just plain condemning?
Why were you earlier speaking about how it was horrible that rape occurred in India, yet it would seem you think FGM is nothing to be concerned about?
(Please don't misunderstand me here, I genuinely am just plain confused about where everybody stands on the matter...)

[miyako73]

I can understand why you and the rest can easily condemn female circumcision while it is a dilemma for an anthropologist. Anthropologists know the danger of judging a culture.

My question to you stands:

If a Hindu fanatic hurts you, a white American who loves In-and-Out double-double, when he sees you grilling beef, do you think that's okay?

You can say anthropologists are politically-correct, fence-sitters, and have no balls, but at least they want to remain objective so if most of you start pinpointing at other peoples' cultures they can also pinpoint at yours.

The change I believe that is lasting is the one that starts from within. Read the Massai article. That's what an objective anthropologist should be supporting.

Coercion from outside like United Nations' and Western NGO's won't work. Coercion breeds defensive reaction. Outsiders can impose FMG as a crime, but those who resist will just go underground.

Anthropologists don't condemn a culture, by the way.

[MarkBastable]

No, gender is just the characterization of the perpetrators that will help us determine what's a cultural practice and what's a criminal act.
Women circumcise girls because they are "socially females" that have to play by the social rules (no woman clit-cutter orgasms when she cuts; circumcising a girl is not due to the wim of a clit-cutter) and men rape women because their victims are "physically females" with vaginas that make them salivate (if they are men, do you think they will be raped?).

So, to boil that down, when women commit violence on another human being, it's because they are culturally obliged to do so. And when men commit violence on another human being, it's because they are men.

[miyako73]

So, to boil that down, when women commit violence on another human being, it's because they are culturally obliged to do so. And when men commit violence on another human being, it's because they are men.

You just love to generalize. Read again. Where were you when we studied fallacies in high school?

"Women circumcise girls because they are "socially females" that have to play by the social rules (no woman clit-cutter orgasms when she cuts; circumcising a girl is not due to the wim of a clit-cutter) and men rape women because their victims are "physically females" with vaginas that make them salivate (if they are men, do you think they will be raped?)."

[miyako73]

Before I leave to watch Les Mis, let me post one more time.

Those who rabidly condemn female circumcision, you can donate or help their effort in eradicating the practice through education.

Here's their website: http://askenya.org/donate.php

In case you want to ask, I support their inside effort.

[mona amon]

Mona amon — Your longer post in this thread today was brilliant. Thanks.


I agree. the point about Sati was very well made, and Miyako's rejoinder that it is underground rather supports the idea that nothing less than an outright ban will do, as even that does not guarrantee that will stop, let alone the kind of half hearted measures Dr Ahmadi was on about.

Ooh, thanks! :)

[miyako73]

I thought rape is rape. I didn't know there are many kinds of rape in India.


How Do We Break The Indian Penile Code?
This cultural sanction of rape must stop, the state has to speak
MEENA KANDASAMY


The endless discourses of the elite point fingers everywhere: except at the real cause, which is the cultural sanction of rape in India. Arundhati Roy was brave to label it India’s rape culture. Rapes are not just numbers (24,206 in 2011), but categories: first, there is the not-a-rape marital rape. Then, the easily dismissible she-asked-for-it rape to be applied to urban women. There is patriotic rape: singular nights of horror courtesy the Indian army as in Kunan-Pushpora and Shopian in Kashmir; its second cousin, the long-lasting disciplinary rape to teach a lesson to a population seeking self-determination such as by the ipkf in Eelam, or the afspa-empowered army in Manipur; the minority rape as in the rape of Muslim women in Gujarat, custodial rape as in what happened to Chidambaram Padmini and, above all, the commonplace, everyday caste-Hindu rape of Dalit women, as in the rape of Surekha Bhotmange and her daughter in Khairlanji, and a thousand other instances. Please add the word ‘alleged’ in front of every mention of rape, so that we carry this pretence of political correctness.

Talk of crime is followed by talk of punishment. The 23-year-old paramedic’s gangrape in Delhi shakes the nation. Seizing the opportunity, violence drapes itself in the clothes of justice, and from the comfort of its kangaroo court, calls for chemical castration and the imposition of a death penalty. Behind this bloodthirsty demand is the propaganda machinery of big media. Out of a hundred questions that come to mind, here’s the obvious one: I do not believe in a hierarchy of victimhood, but why was such a campaign absent when the rapists were not the easily criminalised working classes, but feudal caste-Hindus, army, paramilitary or police personnel, or the rich and powerful? Does caste status, army uniforms, political clout and money grant immunity from media outrage?


Then there is patriotic rape, singular nights of horror courtesy the Indian army as in Shopian in Kashmir.


These phenomenal protests draw the veils over our passive acceptance when we resign our fates to rapes in the private realm. Bleeding from a night of forced sex, when you go to the hospital, brace yourself for disappointment when doctors flash a congratulatory smile at your husband for proving his manhood yet again. You cannot go to the courts afterwards; there is no provision in the Indian Penal/Penile Code to deal with marital rape. In a judgement delivered this December, Delhi district judge J.R. Aryan said, “IPC does not recognise any such concept of marital rape. If complainant was a legally wedded wife of accused, the sexual intercourse with her by accused would not constitute offence of rape even if it was by force or against her wishes.” Translation from the legalese: your husband owns your body. Postscript: marriage is a licence for a man to get free sex and get away with repeated rape. Let us begin by exposing the sexual violence in our homes, tackling the rapists, child abusers and wife-beaters whom we shelter with our silences.
Should we buy into this rhetoric of quick justice and fast-track courts, oblivious to the implications of what awaits us and lacking the wherewithal to initiate reforms in the judiciary? In handling rape cases, several judges have proved themselves to be incarnations of khap panchayat chiefs. Two years ago, in dealing with the case of a gangrape of a minor girl, Justices H.S. Bedi and J.M. Panchal of the Supreme Court of India held that “there can be no presumption that a prosecutrix would always tell the entire story truthfully”. Remember, rape trials are tests of true storytelling. Let us devote time to work on that skill so that when we are eventually raped, we increase our chances at getting justice. The above bench also shamelessly said, “In rape cases, the testimony of the victim cannot be considered to be the gospel truth.” This inherent suspicion by the judiciary is another act of silencing. The system tells you, speaking out will be a disgrace since you have to be disbelieved. Understand my contempt, it is equal and directly proportional to the Supreme Court’s misogyny and mistrust of women.
Beyond the false pride vested in virginity and the glorified burden of chastity, Indian women suffer because they are seen as sexual objects instead of sexual beings. Just as the Indian male imagination cannot include the possibility of a woman wanting to have sex, he cannot imagine a woman wanting to refuse sex. Their consent is taken for granted, this gives a free run to rape culture. In its most bloody avatar, this denial of a woman’s sexuality can lead to mindless violence and an indefinite moratorium on intercaste marriages. Last month, the Ramadoss-led PMK burnt 300 homes in three Dalit colonies in Dharmapuri, Tamil Nadu, to warn caste-Hindu women off from marrying Dalit men. Love, he claims, is an immature act. The scope of anti-caste rebellion arising out of women’s sexual autonomy singes this disturbed man.
We fight for ourselves and spontaneously find our strength. Sorry to disappoint you, Sushma Swaraj. We refuse to be frozen into frigidity merely to fit into your depiction of rape survivors as zinda laash, the living corpses. We are not the walking dead; every day comes alive because of us. We even own the nights. Patriarchal pride dies between our thighs. Your education in feminism will begin, Ms Swaraj, when you learn to respect us. In your spare time, you can start by questioning Hindutva hyper-masculinity and how it resulted in the rapes of Muslim women in Gujarat.




This country gave a gallantry medal to SP Ankit Garg, who ordered the torture of adivasi schoolteacher Soni Sori.


In a city comatose with its own delusions of power, this was a disaster waiting to happen. The Delhi-NCR police have legitimised rapes in the region earlier too, speaking their mind to hidden cameras, saying “she asked for it” and “it is consensual most of the time”. They blamed young women for not staying within their boundaries, for wearing short skirts, for not wearing stoles, for drinking vodka, for enticing men. A cop declared that no rape would happen without the girl’s provocation. No serious action has been taken against any of these cops. It’s difficult to expect otherwise, in a country that gave a gallantry medal to SP Ankit Garg, who ordered the torture of Soni Sori, the adivasi schoolteacher from Dantewada. She was undressed, given electric shocks, stones were shoved in her vagina and rectum. I will save other stories of custodial rapes for another day.
This is how the state ushers in a semblance of calm in Delhi: using expired teargas, lathicharging protesters, wielding water cannons in the December cold. Unleashing police terror is a surprise tactic with a long-term payoff, it is violence meant to shut the door on further peaceful protests. Justifying this brutality, the Delhi police commissioner spoke of “collateral damage” and the Union home minister compared protesters to Maoists. When such language is routinely employed by the state—not in reference to rebellion in the Red Corridor, but to pretty placards in the capital city—it signifies an all-out offensive on the people. When the state finds an escape hatch by homogenising all protest and labelling everyone a Maoist, it creates a sense of helplessness and isolation among the young people. Since the ruling order will not meet protesters on the roads or in Raisina Hill, are they suggesting that all of us schedule a rendezvous in Bastar? Assuming politics is an antidote to violence, the protesters at India Gate merely had a defanged demand: “Talk to us.” What they heard was the silence of the political elites and the deathly drone of the state machinery that sought to quell their protests.
The middle classes who got a taste of police violence will now, hopefully, wake up to the reality of police, paramilitary and army excesses in Kashmir, the Northeast and in adivasi villages in central India. Out of their slumbering state, they will perhaps realise the sham of the present democracy and the zero accountability that elected representatives enjoy. The prime minister robotically reading out empty words and the strategic absence of legitimate mediation from the state will not quell protests. On the contrary, it will have the unintended consequence of detonating similar struggles everywhere. The state will have to speak then. If it doesn’t, and the government succeeds in driving all anger and dissent underground, it will have to take the blame for creating guerrillas en masse. Theek hai?

[MarkBastable]

"Women circumcise girls because they are "socially females" that have to play by the social rules (no woman clit-cutter orgasms when she cuts; circumcising a girl is not due to the wim of a clit-cutter) and men rape women because their victims are "physically females" with vaginas that make them salivate (if they are men, do you think they will be raped?)."



You return constantly to this issue of gender as the basis of the calls you make. It's a kind of insistent overemphasis that you seem to think we should take as a given. But the implications of that given suggest a priori arguments which we're going to have to address before we can accept this...

gender is just the characterization of the perpetrators that will help us determine what's a cultural practice and what's a criminal act

...because that only makes sense if we first accept that there are intrinsic differences between men and women that govern they way that all of them act, and nore importantly, the way they act in relation to cultural influence.

[miyako73]

Oh, Mark. Go ahead. Create your universals. Smart anthropologists go for particulars, and if there are patterns they are left as comparative cultural examples not to be used to create universals.

[Alexander III]

(if they are men, do you think they will be raped?)."

Throughout history and even now the most expensive and valued prostitutes have always been young boys.

[miyako73]

First, I said "men rape women" not "men rape men or boys."

Second, I don't know about what you said. Boys in developing countries are cheap that's why American and European pedophiles go there. Besides sex with boys is illegal in Western countries.

Third, at least here in the US, transsexual prostitutes are the most expensive. They can be both bottom and top. Also, their clients are mostly bicurious and bisexual (with wives or girlfriends) who don't want to be outed. So, they would rather pay more because secrecy is more expensive than sex itself.

[Buh4Bee]

I have been following this case as well. The problems in part seems to be based on societal issues. Until certain fundamental shifts are made, nothing is going to change. Maybe this case will help lead to some legislative reforms and shifts in societal perceptions of women no matter what their background or cast is.

[MarkBastable]

Oh, Mark. Go ahead. Create your universals. Smart anthropologists go for particulars, and if there are patterns they are left as comparative cultural examples not to be used to create universals.

I thought you weren't considering rape from an anthropological point of view, smart or otherwise?

But my argument wasn't an anthropological one either. It was a logical one. If we say that A has inherent qualities that lead to B, we can't accept B without showing that we're right about A. So...

gender is just the characterization of the perpetrators that will help us determine what's a cultural practice and what's a criminal act...


...what is it about gender that helps us determine what's a cultural practice and what's a criminal act?

[miyako73]

"If we say that A has inherent qualities that lead to B, we can't accept B without showing that we're right about A."

I want to play with your logic:

an apple (A) has the sweetness (inherent quality) that leads to a fruit tart (B), we can't accept the fruit tart (B) without showing that we're right about the apple (A).

Suppose we are right about the apple (A) being red (what the apple shows), what does red have to do with the fruit tart (B) considering an apple is peeled when it is made into a fruit tart?

[MarkBastable]

And I want you to stop avoiding the question.

[miyako73]

I have already answered that. You just want to pretend you know Logic. Please stop. You're insulting your Logic professor.

[Delta40]

Is this tennis or ping pong?

[Paulclem]

In my view I think you broached the subject of FGM in the wrong way. You have stated that you don't agree with it, but seem to have subsumed this disgust with it to the intellectualism of anthropology. It seems you think that we don't understand cultural relativism as you've laid it out - hence your frequent repetitions, but I have no doubt we do. It's just that the relativism is considered secondary to the natural human reaction of revulsion towards a disfiguring practice.

If you had stated - as you already have - your disgust with the practice, and then gone on to explain why an anthropological approach would be more skillful than an outright ban, then I think we woud have had a different debate. Instead you came from a don't even consider it, it is best left alone attitude.

As for your equation with male circumcision, I think the difference lies in the fact that you don't hear of any traumatised men who have undergone this. I don't doubt that there are mistakes and infections etc, but the lasting trauma, physiological difficulties and cultural exclusion are not heard of. I don't mean to suggest that I support it - I have said that I feel it is a useless and redundant practice.

[MarkBastable]

I have already answered that. You just want to pretend you know Logic. Please stop. You're insulting your Logic professor.

And you are insulting everyone.

However, please stop avoiding the question.

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Inflammatory and/or off-topic posts will be removed without further notice.

~

[Madhuri]

If you're from India and trying to present the phenomenon of rape in India as normal like in other countries, you're not helping your country. Babies and grannies are victims of rape in India. China is as big as your country, but I don't see/hear Chinese news detailing ordeals of raped kids in a daily basis. Throw away your pride and feel the shame. Only collective shame will make your countrymen change their culturally-accepted misogynistic attitude towards women.

What makes you think that I am proud of what happened here? How do you know nothing is being done to change from where we were to where we are/want to see ourselves? Reading online newspapers will never teach you anything about any country. The news is often sensationalized, sometimes benefiting the case and it sometimes provides masala news to some people who would read it and think that's enough to know about a nation.


This case is horrible for the girl and her family. Nothing takes away from that fact.

The wider questions raised also come because of the attack, and the problem is the inequalities which exist in India - particularly for women. I don't think you can get away from inequality to women/ attitudes to women/ caste because the caste situation creates and sustains inequality. This is particularly difficult for women who are vulnerable to negative influences and attitudes.

All rape cases are not related and cannot be always related to gender inequality or caste; I don't think we can generalise like.


Clearly anyone can have something unfortunate happen to them, but would it receive as much attention as it has done if the girl had been an untouchable?

It will, if it were picked up by media and highlighted like the way it has been done in the current case; and there are many instances of other such cases being highlighted.


It is thus difficult to come up with figures, but we have agencies in the UK which deal with victims beyond the criminal justice system. They regularly make statements and try to positively affect policy. It's not perfect, but what is? It can only improve. The work done has removed the stigma of rape for women to a greater extent than in the past, and attitudes are healthier than they were. Can you say that attitudes in India to a raped girl are healthy and that the stigma has been removed? It requires a very large cultural shift which will not happen overnight.

By the way, I don't know where Miyako is from or why they are so negative about India, or why China - that bastion of human rights - is held up as a good example in comparison.


Why might Indian police be less than approachable or sensitive to victims of rape, especially rape by strangers and, more especially, rape with assault? Are there cultural or historical factors that makes India different? Is community tolerance for honour killings somehow related?

The attitude is healthier when we compare ourselves with our past, but not as healthy when compared or other nations, such as the UK. The stigma is still there - what will happen to the girl's future, who will marry, or if the girl is married then it will have an impact on the whole family etc. etc. It is not considered good to get involved with the police not just in rape cases, but infact in anything because of the corruption and the way police deals with the victims or even the culprits. In rape cases, the amount of detail with which the police interrogates the victim is quite humiliating and more often to get some masala news, which is not required. This is one of the reasons that many cases are never reported thinking who will go to the police and be subject to such humiliation or who will fight the long court battles that can run for decades. It definitely has to do with the mindset of the people because even the police and support agency people come from the same society with the same thought process.

Media has a good role to play and I hope they continue highlighting more cases because we definitely need a drastic change not just in the laws but also in the attitude.

On the caste issue - being an upper caste does not mean that people have by default more privileges. There are upper-caste people who live in extreme poverty and are illiterate too; whereas there are lower-caste people who are affluent. As per the law, lower-caste people/tribes/obc's etc have a quota and reservation in everything. They get free education, food and even jobs are reserved for them, so much so that there are vacancies that remain unfilled and are never open to general candidates where the competition is more. Of course there is a lot more to castes than the very very high level picture that I have given you.

[Paulclem]

I think what you say in most of your post is fair and honestly self critical.

On the caste issue - being an upper caste does not mean that people have by default more privileges. There are upper-caste people who live in extreme poverty and are illiterate too; whereas there are lower-caste people who are affluent. As per the law, lower-caste people/tribes/obc's etc have a quota and reservation in everything. They get free education, food and even jobs are reserved for them, so much so that there are vacancies that remain unfilled and are never open to general candidates where the competition is more. Of course there is a lot more to castes than the very very high level picture that I have given you.

I have to say i am suspicious of the more affluent Indian's pronouncements upon poverty - though not of you as you seem honest in your response. I have heard and seen reactions to poverty from upper class Indians, and very uncomfortable they can be.