forum contributors with english as a second language

[manuscript]

some of the forum contributors have mentioned that english is not their first language.

once i read a personal experience story by a woman whose first language was english and was devoted to learning french. she would go and stay with a family of french friends in paris. when speaking about her usage of the french language, they would refer to her "song". thats what its like for me when i read your writing in english - it is as though there is a song in it that i can listen to. it is different from the usage of people with english as a first language, and it sounds lovely to me, like the song of a beautiful bird.

i am curious about your experiences learning and using english and your perceptions of the english usage of those with english as a first language.

was it difficult to learn english? what tools have you used to learn it? why did you decide to learn it? are you still engaged in the process of learning?

does the english of first-language english speakers sound different to you from your first language, the way that your english sounds like a song to me? how does it sound different? is it cold and clinical and precise? is it messy? are the words we choose and the way we first english speakers use them lyrical and flexible or are they empty and jagged?

i am just interested in all of your experiences with learning a new language and your thoughts about the language of english as someone who has encountered it as something foreign rather than something that has always been known. thank you!

[kiki1982]

Aaaah, that's lovely, I sound like a bird :)!

English was forced down my throat when I was 14. They had decided that I was to learn English for me. But then I had more chance to talk to people from different countries, so that was a plus.
Although, by the time I was 18, I spoke it, but not by far as well as now. It was my hubby's relentless BBC-watching that got me a good level. And the practice with him... I think after about 3 months the Present Perfect and Past Simple finally clicked in my head :lol:. Maing a cup of tea,I suddenly said without thinking, 'I have made yu a cup of tea.' :confused:

Although I do notice that when I am over there, my understanding of people speaking is not that good. I suppose because they are less precise or don't care, or something. Last time I learned a different meaning for squint.

I always say that English is easy to learn, but it's not easy to learn well. Most of it is conjecture and wet thumb stuff. There are twenty different words for expressing exactly the same thing, but they re ust that little bit different. So it is etremely precise. It's a good thing. Hubby and I make translations from Dutch (Flemish Dutch is my mother tongue) into English and it's always precisely what is expressed in the Dutch text. If it has to go the other way round, I get frustrated because it's never precise enough. In the modern version of my language, you can't say half the stuff you woud like to say, because it's hopelessly outdated. Sad that.

[manuscript]

thank you very much! kiki that was fascinating.

i have never encountered the expression "wet thumb".

as someone who has always spoken english, and only speaks english, i agree with you that it is not easy to learn well. i always feel like i do not understand it properly. there are so many rules. for example i am reminded by what you wrote that i find it very difficult to use the different ways of talking about time correctly. i know that people understand what i mean when i talk about time in the ways that are accepted in popular usage, but i know also that those ways of talking about time are actually not correct, and do not mean what they are popularly accepted to mean, there are actually more accurate ways of talking about time. i think i should learn some formal grammar. i admit i dont even know what present perfect and past simple are.

[Scheherazade]

there are so many rules. As an ESOL speaker, I find that rules are not the problem but the exceptions to those rules.
i admit i dont even know what present perfect and past simple are.Ask an ESOL/EFL speaker. They might be able to help you! :D

[Maximilianus]

It was the summer of 1986 when I finished my first year of English lessons. Free education at state schools in my country never covers languages decently, so if you really want to learn a language and get a certificate you have to take classes at a specific language training institution, which is what I did for 9 years. Nowadays, English classes are much more frequent at free state schools than they were when I was a kid, but they lack quality, so it's nowhere near an option if you really mean to get somewhere. I keep all report cards and diplomas with final grades always above 90/100, but there was this one particular year when I went downhill with a 67/100. Arrogance apart, a 67 in English-related subjects is not like me. It pissed me off, and then and there I decided I'd never get a low grade in an English course again. I can swallow low grades in subjects that don't matter at all to me, but not in languages. The only explanation I find is that I must have been in a crisis at the time, because it never happened again.

Contrary to kiki, I never managed to sing it like a bird. According to my judgment, plus what I've been told, I seem to do better at writing. There's something in my voice I strongly despise; a sort of low pitch, low volume, low everything that doesn't sound at all pleasing to my ears when recorded. I like it a little better when I hear myself directly from myself, but whenever I record my voice it sounds like an evil foreign toad attempting to seize a pond under threat of murdering all other creatures with an unbearably ugly utterance. Some people tell me I am exaggerating, suggesting that they like how I sound, but I feel they are just being condescending. A couple teachers say I have a sort of Irish/Scottish accent, but I also feel they are just being condescending. I have all the sounds properly articulated in my mind and they sound awesome in my imagination, but whenever I utter them the result is overly objectionable to my ears. I don't know how to solve this :frown2:

Also contrary to kiki, nobody forced me into English. Quite the opposite, I pushed my parents into paying for my 9-year lessons after becoming enamored with the language of the movies. The first English-spoken/Spanish-subtitled movie I saw was Rambo: First Blood, so I figured I could learn to speak like tough Sylvester... until I realized my voice wouldn't help me at all for that matter. Anyway, as I didn't understand a word I began wondering if the speaking actually matched the subtitles, which I was suspicious about, and so I decided I wanted to master the language of the movies. My life has always been attached to English, one way or another, ever since I picked it as the language to learn besides my mother tongue. It's the first best choice I made on my own and I didn't make it out of spotting future convenience, but purely because I wanted. I was 11 when I began my relationship with English.

Now I'm back at university, training to hopefully become an ESL teacher/language researcher after attempting an unsuccessful career in the IT field for over a decade, of which the first years were okay until I realized I wasn't fit for that profession. When I finally came to my senses, I switched back to English and enrolled in a school of remarkable reputation in training language experts. I'm supposed to be on the right path this time, for a change.

Browsing the web I sometimes run into purported language teachers who claim to be native speakers, yet they seem implacable enemies of the comma, their spelling is but a little less than apocalyptically chaotic, nonparallel structures are their plaything, and run-on sentences seem the only sort of sentence within the range of their imagination. The only punctuation mark they seem more or less keen on appears to be the period, but just after a mile-long wild succession of words, and yet they assure they work in the language teaching field. I can take linguistic flaws in dyslexic people; they suffer from a cognitive disability. I can take linguistic flaws in people from underprivileged backgrounds; mom and dad never provided either a book or notebook. But how can anyone teach a language when they are incapable of spotting and correcting their own absurdities? I can't help thinking about the damage they cause and how they are allowed to cause it, supposing they really work as teachers. None of my teachers is a native English speaker, save the language assistants who generally come from the US, and I've never seen these inconceivable flaws in any of them so far. Then again, I have classmates who provide personalized lessons, a good number of whom can't manage to pass a course with a grade higher than 60 (the minimum passing grade in our system), still ignoring that the plural of child is children and not childrens, and yet they give lessons and are allowed to. I see damage being brought about in several ways by all these people and it pisses me off. At times I make small mistakes in a test, mostly due to distraction, then feel frustrated, and my teachers tell me "if you feel frustrated over two or three minor mistakes, how should your classmates feel?" Well, I don't see frustrated classmates over a 60. Rather I see them giving lessons as though they were qualified to teach anything. I see them happily earning a salary despite their lack of linguistic skills. Rookies on the verge of a heart attack every time they are assigned an essay are dishing out wrong lessons, and I never cease to have a reason to get frustrated over my small mistakes http://smiles.kolobok.us/standart/sad.gif

Sorry for the long post. I felt like expressing myself tonight :rolleyes:

[OrphanPip]

I need to compulsively edit and proofread my work, or else it comes out terrible. My native language is technically English but I received rather poor education in the language. I did my primary school education entirely in French, and our English classes amounted to useless vocabulary lessons. I learned to read and write English on my own, though my French literacy and spoken English made that less difficult. I spent most of my secondary education in an immersion program, so I continued half of my courses in French. By the time I finished high school I had mostly caught up in English, I even managed to lose my acquired French accent in English. I did my post-secondary education all in English, I believe my French has probably regressed more than I'd like, I didn't put in the work to develop it as much as I concentrated on recovering my English.

[Paulclem]

I need to compulsively edit and proofread my work, or else it comes out terrible.

It doesn't show at all.

[Maximilianus]

I would say it doesn't show at all precisely because of the compulsive edition :) I also edit compulsively whenever I write anything. I'm often obsessed with this fragment that might read better by touching this and that, and that word that doesn't look so good, and so on. The main drawback in being a compulsive linguistic corrector, if that's a suitable term, is the amount of time it takes to write a final version that looks satisfactory to one's taste. This is why I often refrain from posting whenever I eagerly feel like expressing my opinions at length. An obsession with correctness, plus my not so fast brains, would prevent me from dealing with urgent matters that shouldn't be postponed for the sake of composing a long post. For example, my previous post on this thread took me more than half a day, which I could afford just because I'm having a few days off duty. I can't devote more than half a day to write anything off-school when I'm doing assignments, writing essays, taking classes, or training to take an exam. I suppose it's an absurd amount of time for a fast brain able to write lengthily and correctly in a short time, but mine tends to be slow.

[Snowqueen]

What's your first language, Max?

[Maximilianus]

What's your first language, Max?
Argentinian Spanish. I can understand most Spanish accents, slang and whatnot, but it's easier for me to pick up on my country's regionalisms. Matter of habit :)

Yours is Hindi?

[Scheherazade]

I wonder if "obssessive revision/editing" is more of a "character trait" than an ESOL speaker trait. I tend to edit non-stop as well but I do that in my mother tongue too; not only in Engish. And I do it for myself. Sometimes I come across something I had written years ago and I don't mind sitting down to review and edit it even though I know perfectly well that no one else will ever read it again.

I can never hand in an assignment before its deadline either because I cling to it, editing and re-writing until the very last minute.

[JCamilo]

No, sorry Scheherazade, it is not. :D

[Maximilianus]

I go with the character trait option. I suspect that no one actually reads in detail what I devoted so much time and care to write, such as birthday interviews or lengthy opinions about any given subject, to name but two examples. I suppose my school assignments are more likely to get a few reads, since there's a teacher who has to grade them :p but I guess most times one makes the effort mainly to please oneself.


I can never hand in an assignment before its deadline either because I cling to it, editing and re-writing until the very last minute.
I'm as well in the same syntony http://smiles.kolobok.us/standart/swoon2.gif

[Snowqueen]

Argentinian Spanish. I can understand most Spanish accents, slang and whatnot, but it's easier for me to pick up on my country's regionalisms. Matter of habit :)

Yours is Hindi?

I know Hindi a bit because it’s somewhat related to Urdu, which is our national language and I’m more fluent in it.
My mother tongue is Saraiki – a local dialect.

[Maximilianus]

So your spot must be in Pakistan :) English is widely used over there, isn't it?

[Snowqueen]

Yes, I’m from Pakistan and English is one of the official languages here, but majority of people prefer to communicate in Urdu.

[Maximilianus]

It must be interesting to live in a place where people can speak differently. Most people speak more or less the same way here, save the foreign visitors :)

[aliengirl]

It must be interesting to live in a place where people can speak differently. Most people speak more or less the same way here, save the foreign visitors :)

Yeah, it is! :nod: It is fun to guess the native place of people you meet in public places as everyone speaks in a distinct dialect. Most of the speakers regularly switch between the high and low dialects.

My friend Max drew my attention to this thread and I found it quite interesting. I wish I can talk to you Kiki so as to enjoy your bird-song. :)

Scher, few would have guessed you were a ESOL speaker. I also agree that "obssessive revision/editing" is more of a character trait. I do it while writing in my first language and even in notes which no one is ever going to check.

Max - I enjoyed reading your long post. Pushing your parents into paying for special classes! Surely you take your relationship with English seriously. :) Despite your negative description of your own voice I'd like to hear you. I simply can't believe it sounds as bad as you say.

Strictly speaking, English is my third language. My education upto high school was in my national language and English was taught only as a subject. I fondly recall those excruciating moment when English Grammar was pushed down our throat and we swallowed it in one gulp like a disgusting potion. The year I graduated from high school, it was not even compulsory to pass in it due to some weird political motive of our honorable state education minister. Most of the students were relieved. I, on the contrary, was greatly annoyed.

I love learning different languages. I learned English on my own, mostly by reading. Dad and my brother kept me well-supplied with books and we often discussed whatever I've learned. My brother and I wrote to each other long letters in English when he went away to pursue his studies. I was about 12 or 13 then and that was when I started learning English seriously. A disadvantage of learning it on my own was that I didn't get enough practice for speaking it. But I overcame this problem by watching documentaries/movies and talking to my friends. I just make sure that my pronunciation is correct. I don't know what my accent is exactly like but people say I speak well. My profs, even the most critical ones, find it good. Maybe I should try to record my own voice and check where I stand. This also raises a question - Is it essential for us, the non-native speakers, to speak with a native accent? I've never seen any foreigner speak my national language like we do. They don't seem to think it's important to master the accent as well. So, should the ESL/ESOL speakers worry about it?

[Delta40]

That's amazing AG. I admire anyone who can speak another language. One thing that brings a smile to my face is American documentaries that have subtitles when the person is either Australian or Scottish. They're still speaking English but apparently they may not be understood because of their accent! So should you worry about accent? I really don't know...

[Eiseabhal]

I'm Scottish but not a Gall so my second language - English - is perfectly understandable to even an Arkansas man.

[kiki1982]

That's amazing AG. I admire anyone who can speak another language. One thing that brings a smile to my face is American documentaries that have subtitles when the person is either Australian or Scottish. They're still speaking English but apparently they may not be understood because of their accent! So should you worry about accent? I really don't know...

:lol: Over there too? In the Dutch language area as well. They are only next door and they subtitle. Even for Flemish dialects we subtitle Flemish TV. It's a bit silly. In the 50s, they got people in front of the camera... Youdidn't know what hovel they came out of. What la,guag!! No subtitles. I think since the nineties, they've had a slighly oversized contract with a subtitling company or something.

I do have to admit that Australia's Prime Minister speaks particularly marked (read: ugly; don't ant to offend they Australians, but I am told even Australians find it silly). My hubby says it's because she wants to make a statement. Most Australians, indeed, don't.
Scottish can be difficult mind; you wanna hear orkin class Glaswegian, look up Rab C Nesbit, I had trouble with it, particularly late at night. Hadn't happened for years. Most Scots, though, mind what they're doing when they come on TV, so they talk with an accent (sometimes a good one), but as soon as you get how they pronounce their vowels, it's perfectly clear.
Don't see the use for subtitling, apart from handing someonan easy job.

[aliengirl]

That's amazing AG. I admire anyone who can speak another language. One thing that brings a smile to my face is American documentaries that have subtitles when the person is either Australian or Scottish. They're still speaking English but apparently they may not be understood because of their accent! So should you worry about accent? I really don't know...

Thanks for your kind remark Delta. :) Probably I should not worry much about my accent for who'll understand me here if I start speaking with a curious accent. Lol!

[caddy_caddy]

Hi,
I am French educated; I first learned English to help my kids in their study cz they are English educated. I attented an American language center for two years ; I was 26 years old; there I liked English and felt very interrested in reading in English , especially English literature cz I like literature very much .I used to spend hours and hours every day on websites that teach English , especially grammar. At first I focused a lot on grammar,( I was obssessed with memorizing grammar rules) but later on I discovered that it was all a waste of time and effort. When you read a lot you'll acquire the correct grammatical structure automatically. Although I read a lot in English but still I feel I can't express myself as a native speaker. Untill now, I use the Arabic structure in English words; I always get confused between prepositions that are used with verbs cz in Arabic we use different prepositions. I have a problem with listening too. I rarely watch movies so I can't understand what they are saying without reading the subtitle. Moreover, I don't know how to chat in an informal way .



hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
that's an example : we say to help in their study or with their study ??? in Arabic we say in ; what's the correct preposition?

[qimissung]

When you read a lot you'll acquire the correct grammatical structure automatically.

Thank you, Caddy!!! I have been saying this to my students (who are, for the most part, largely second language learners) for years! They rarely take me up on it, though.

[caddy_caddy]

When you read a lot you'll acquire the correct grammatical structure automatically.

Thank you, Caddy!!! I have been saying this to my students (who are, for the most part, largely second language learners) for years! They rarely take me up on it, though.
Yeh, in our schools , especially official schools, they focus mainly on teaching grammar and memorizing rules. I always say to my kids, mom u should read in English; You can't improve your language unless you read extensively.Memorizing rules won't help.

[Maximilianus]

(...) that's an example : we say to help in their study or with their study ??? in Arabic we say in ; what's the correct preposition?
You help someone with something. Therefore, you help them with their studies. Help in doesn't seem natural to me and I've never heard it.

[caddy_caddy]

You help someone with something. Therefore, you help them with their studies. Help in doesn't seem natural to me and I've never heard it.

in Arabic we say " help in ". This is the major problem I face with English. My native language always interferes with the foreign language.

[blazeofglory]

Hi,
I am French educated; I first learned English to help my kids in their study cz they are English educated. I attented an American language center for two years ; I was 26 years old; there I liked English and felt very interrested in reading in English , especially English literature cz I like literature very much .I used to spend hours and hours every day on websites that teach English , especially grammar. At first I focused a lot on grammar,( I was obssessed with memorizing grammar rules) but later on I discovered that it was all a waste of time and effort. When you read a lot you'll acquire the correct grammatical structure automatically. Although I read a lot in English but still I feel I can't express myself as a native speaker. Untill now, I use the Arabic structure in English words; I always get confused between prepositions that are used with verbs cz in Arabic we use different prepositions. I have a problem with listening too. I rarely watch movies so I can't understand what they are saying without reading the subtitle. Moreover, I don't know how to chat in an informal way .



hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
that's an example : we say to help in their study or with their study ??? in Arabic we say in ; what's the correct preposition?

That is a wonderful idea oflearning langauge. Grammar has no end and even if you leep on learning for years you cannot commit all to your memory. The best choice is curse to,internalize the structure. I am also from a nonenglish background and English in factm is an optional languge in many language communities. It is just British or American. It has been today a common language, a link language, or something like lingua franca and we have today a sort of compulsion to learn it. I cannot find alobal nexus without English. I cannot go across larger communities to communicate or share ideas on a global level if I become country bound. I hate patriotism or nationalism since it divides humanity. That is why I feel deeply that th future of,humanity lies in speaking a common language.

[caddy_caddy]

That is a wonderful idea oflearning langauge. Grammar has no end and even if you leep on learning for years you cannot commit all to your memory. The best choice is curse to,internalize the structure. I am also from a nonenglish background and English in factm is an optional languge in many language communities. It is just British or American. It has been today a common language, a link language, or something like lingua franca and we have today a sort of compulsion to learn it. I cannot find alobal nexus without English. I cannot go across larger communities to communicate or share ideas on a global level if I become country bound. I hate patriotism or nationalism since it divides humanity. That is why I feel deeply that th future of,humanity lies in speaking a common language.

Yes indeed ,English has become a global language .But unlike you I adore the Arabic language and I'm so proud of my language . That's why maybe It still interferes with English and can't get rid completely of it . Untill now I can't think in English, hhhhhhhhhhh , maybe that's has to do with nationalism. I think in Arabic and write in English. My style is an Arabic style not English. You can easily notice that I'm not a native speaker. I use English only at the university but I don't like to use it in everyday life. In Lebanon many use French and English as a second language not as a foreign language. But I don't like to do so although it helps a lot in developing your skills. Your language is your identity and you should preserve it.

[Annamariah]

My first language is Finnish. I learned English at school. We had this thing called "language shower" (where we learned some words and simple phrases in English) in the first two grades, and the proper English lessons began on the third grade. In elementary school English was the only subject I found difficult, though I always got good grades. The turning point was when I started reading books in English. My first book in English was Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, which was an easy choice, since I already knew the book pretty much by heart in Finnish. Reading books proved to be a great way to expand my vocabulary. It also helped to get a "sense" of the language, making different expressions, structures and grammar more familiar. Another important thing, which has contributed to my pronunciation, is the fact that most tv programmes in Finland are in English with Finnish subtitles. Hearing English language regularly has helped a lot, especially since English pronunciation is really difficult for a Finn. The whole concept of a word being written in one way and pronounced in another is completely foreign for us! :D At the moment I am a sixth-year English translation student in Helsinki university writing my Master's Thesis.

[aliengirl]

My first language is Finnish. I learned English at school. We had this thing called "language shower" (where we learned some words and simple phrases in English) in the first two grades, and the proper English lessons began on the third grade. In elementary school English was the only subject I found difficult, though I always got good grades. The turning point was when I started reading books in English. My first book in English was Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, which was an easy choice, since I already knew the book pretty much by heart in Finnish. Reading books proved to be a great way to expand my vocabulary. It also helped to get a "sense" of the language, making different expressions, structures and grammar more familiar. Another important thing, which has contributed to my pronunciation, is the fact that most tv programmes in Finland are in English with Finnish subtitles. Hearing English language regularly has helped a lot, especially since English pronunciation is really difficult for a Finn. The whole concept of a word being written in one way and pronounced in another is completely foreign for us! :D At the moment I am a sixth-year English translation student in Helsinki university writing my Master's Thesis.

"Language shower" sounds fun. It'll be less burdensome than immediately introducing proper lessons in elementary grades. You're right that reading books gives us a sense of the language. Good luck with your studies. :)


Hi,
I am French educated; I first learned English to help my kids in their study cz they are English educated. I attented an American language center for two years ; I was 26 years old; there I liked English and felt very interrested in reading in English , especially English literature cz I like literature very much .I used to spend hours and hours every day on websites that teach English , especially grammar. At first I focused a lot on grammar,( I was obssessed with memorizing grammar rules) but later on I discovered that it was all a waste of time and effort. When you read a lot you'll acquire the correct grammatical structure automatically. Although I read a lot in English but still I feel I can't express myself as a native speaker. Untill now, I use the Arabic structure in English words; I always get confused between prepositions that are used with verbs cz in Arabic we use different prepositions. I have a problem with listening too. I rarely watch movies so I can't understand what they are saying without reading the subtitle. Moreover, I don't know how to chat in an informal way .



hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
that's an example : we say to help in their study or with their study ??? in Arabic we say in ; what's the correct preposition?

Hi there,
Isn't it great that you began late and on your own and yet you've come a long way? You know at least three languages if I read your post correct which means you're good at learning languages. So no need to worry much.

I agree that reading a lot helps you to get the hang of grammar and expressions. In school we were asked to work on endless grammatical lessons. Luckily I began reading on my own and breezed through those lessons. Still it was boring.

Error due to first language interference is common irrespective of the languages concerned. It's difficult to grasp prepositions in English for most of ESL speakers. So don't think it's just you but please continue to work upon it. Pay closer attention to sentences when you read. Any book on common errors in English may help.

As for communicating in English there is an easy way...start chatting today. You'll get better as you proceed. Try listening to documentaries or lectures as they speak at a normal speed and at a moderate volume. If you want to concentrate on listening radio shows may also help. When you get familiar with the sounds of basic words, go ahead and watch movies or whatever you like. You can speak English well even if you love your first language. :)

[Calidore]

One good rule when learning a language is to watch the news in that language; the newscasters' scripts are intentionally written simply and cleanly so as to be easily understood at pretty much any educational level.

[DocHeart]

One good rule when learning a language is to watch the news in that language; the newscasters' scripts are intentionally written simply and cleanly so as to be easily understood at pretty much any educational level.

This is great advice, and it's what took me from being able to talk about my holidays and what I like to do in my spare time to being able to take A-levels in English.

But it only applies to language learners that have reached a certain level of proficiency -- perhaps B2 in the Common European Framework for language learning or, in other words, someone who's already able to understand discourse on topics with their own terminology and advanced meanings (economics, politics). CNN and BBC only became useful to me after I had already been studying English for four years or so.

Regardless, learners of that level will also benefit from watching movies without subtitles and reading magazines, newspapers and literary works written in the target language.

And whatever one does in terms of becoming exposed to language, one always has to remember to *activate* newly acquired words and phrases in their own attempts at writing and/or speaking.

[Scheherazade]

Regardless, learners of that level will also benefit from watching movies without subtitles... I have to admit that the opposite is true for me. Having the English subtitles as well as the audio has always helped me have a better understanding of what is going on and it has become such a habit that to this day I tend to turn on the subtitles while watching movies. I detect and appreciate the subtleties of language better with the subtitles.

I agree with Doc's comment that watching the news requires a certain level of proficiency. Even though it is also a matter of learning styles, listening/speaking skills develop slower than reading skills so most learners find following conversations in the target language -however clearly it is spoken- more difficult especially if it is not a special recording for ESOL/EFL learners.

[Annamariah]

I have to admit that the opposite is true for me. Having the English subtitles as well as the audio has always helped me have a better understanding of what is going on and it has become such a habit that to this day I tend to turn on the subtitles while watching movies. I detect and appreciate the subtleties of language better with the subtitles.

Subtitles in one's first language are very helpful to begin with, I agree with Scher about that. English subtitles are also great, once it's time to move on to the next level of language-learning. I actually still often choose English subtitles whenever I watch DVDs in English, because it's often hard to hear all the lines (especially when one has to keep the volume low so that they would not to disturb other family members or neighbours). I hardly ever choose Finnish subtitles when watching DVDs, because they are usually translated very quickly and it shows. The translator in me always gets so angry about the poor subtitles that it's hard to concentrate on the actual film :D

[Zagreus]

My first language is Portuguese, and I pretty much taught myself English through videogames and reading and music. I find this thread lovely, as it makes it easier to see the diversity of human language (or maybe even humanity's inherent diversity) - so many people with such different backgrounds and with such different struggles to learn the same language!
I always marvel at the beautiful thread of words spun by those who have mastered English. Having Portuguese as my native language made me think of English as a hard, technical language at first. It lacks that musicality that Roman languages are said to have. Then I came across Shakespeare - those hard sounds had been put together to build a mosaic, and what a beautiful mosaic it was. I remember when I was thirteen, trying to read The Merchant of Venice with the original in one hand and a Portuguese translation in the other. Happy times when I had such patience. English now seems to be everywhere in my life: I listen to music with lyrics sang in English, I read almost solely in English, my computer's in English. Just wish I could write better and have such fluency as I do with Portuguese, it's hard when one's got ideas that cannot be expressed. Over-correcting people, I share your griefs.

[qimissung]

I've heard Portuguese is very musical, though I have never gotten to hear it spoken myself, but, wow, I would not know you (or Scher or Anna, for that matter) were not a native speaker had you not said so.