Voyeurism in Sex

[cacian]

Someone was saying in a different forum that they thought the internet has changed the way we have sex today.
I totally agree. It has changed it in a sense that it made it accessible for everyone to watch at any time and any minute of day and night and without having to enter into it.
Webcams is another change into sexual habits were internet users become sex actees in couples or singles where by watching and doing goes on.
Sex clubs and there many of them in London where people can go and entertain sex whilst others watch.

So I would like to say that voyeurism seems to be the norms today because of the internet and other facilities.
I personally think that sex is solely and purely a physical act done between two consenting adults.
I would however feel extremely uncomfortable if I knew someone was watching because it spooks me out.
The other reason is that I could not tell/work what the voyeurs are thinking in their heads whilst seeing.

The question is:
How do you feel about voyeurism?

Thank you for taking part.

[tonywalt]

Voyeurism kinky or perversed - that's our choice?

This reminds be of the Sopranos episode when Paulie Walnuts looks at Vito (very large) and Bobby Baccalieri(fatter) and says "Oh look, the Weight Watchers plan" and pointing Vito then to Bobby says "Before, and Way Before".

(If you dont' get it - ask someone else).

[cacian]

Voyeurism kinky or perversed - that's our choice?

''that's our choice?'' I am not sure I get this. How do you mean?

This reminds be of the Sopranos episode when Paulie Walnuts looks at Vito (very large) and Bobby Baccalieri(fatter) and says "Oh look, the Weight Watchers plan" and pointing Vito then to Bobby says "Before, and Way Before".

(If you dont' get it - ask someone else).
You are right I do not get this. The only thing I might get from this is that it is different to look at someone on the grounds of what they look like and watch someone doing something.
Very different.

[JBI]

This didn't start with the internet. People have always been into perversions, especially where you live in London (*wink*). Voyeurism is no different, it is an old tradition. The "Sex show" was only brought to home video by the internet, but people had been watching sexuality on display for thousands of years before that.

[stlukesguild]

cacian- ''that's our choice?'' I am not sure I get this. How do you mean?

"Now that voyeurism is on the up would you say the concept itself is kinky sexy or perversed?"

It would seem from your OP that you are asking for our opinion upon voyeurism... but the choices you offer are rather limited:

kinky

sexy

perversed (a merger of perverted and perverse?)

[JBI]

Or is it a verb? like, I perversed my night away doing voyeuristic things.

[Maximilianus]

perversed (a merger of perverted and perverse?)
Yup, in a way. Actually, perversed is an obsolete adjective meaning turned aside, especially as regards moral standards.

[cacian]

cacian- ''that's our choice?'' I am not sure I get this. How do you mean?

"Now that voyeurism is on the up would you say the concept itself is kinky sexy or perversed?"

It would seem from your OP that you are asking for our opinion upon voyeurism... but the choices you offer are rather limited:

kinky

sexy

perversed (a merger of perverted and perverse?)
I get it thank you Stlukes. I have now changed it.


Or is it a verb? like, I perversed my night away doing voyeuristic things.
'Voyeurisitic things' sounds very arty for some reason.


This didn't start with the internet. People have always been into perversions, especially where you live in London (*wink*). Voyeurism is no different, it is an old tradition. The "Sex show" was only brought to home video by the internet, but people had been watching sexuality on display for thousands of years before that.
Thank you for this useful post JBI. It is incredible to see that some things never change.
It makes you think.

[stlukesguild]

I don't see why it would seem the least bit incredible or surprising or make you think. From the very start we have been programmed to enjoy looking at beautiful people of the opposite or the same sex... as things may be. This attraction includes an attraction to the naked body and sexuality. As JBI suggested the access to images of nudity and sexual acts available on the internet is nothing new... it merely employs the latest technologies. before this we had "pay-per-view" cable TV and videos, and "blue movies" and pin-ups and erotic paintings, prints, sculpture... to say nothing of the continued existence of brothels and prostitution.

Is the passion for looking "kinky" or "perverted"? Perversion, by definition, is a concept describing those types of human behavior that deviate from that which is understood to be orthodox or normal. Some of the statistics I have found with just a little Googling:

*The Porn Industry worldwide is nearing $100 Billion US in yearly revenues
*The US revenues stand around $13 Billion
*The largest porn revenues can be found in Asia: China, Japan, and South Korea account for $73 Billion of the total
*Of the audience searching under the term "sex" on the internet (some 75,608,612 searches made as of the most recent statistics- 2006) the percentage of male to female searchers was 50/50
* The most searched for word on the internet in South Africa, Ireland, Great Britain, Australia, Canada, Norway and several others is "porn"
* The terms "xxx" and "sex" are the most commonly searched for words on the internet in countries such as Chile, Romania, Pakistan, Mexico, India, Egypt, Morocco, Iran, Croatia, etc...
* It is estimated that as much as 25% of all internet searches involve sexual imagery/pornography
* There are 4.2 million porn sites on the net
* More than 70% of male internet users from 18 to 34 visit a pornographic site in a typical month
* 40 Million Americans visit porn sites on a regular basis
* 1 in 3 porn viewers are women... although they are far less likely to pay for porn

Such statistics... even if inflated... suggest that the desire to look at sexual imagery is in no way a behavior that is deviant from the "norm".

[cacian]

Very interesting post Stluke and thank you for posting.
I think in everything there is a silver lining. The computer fast access to porn and watchers of porn. It made me think that many have learned to enjoy watching more then doing.
What it does to the mind is something else. I think it made me realise that more and more people young or old have picked up that watching is easy and so engage in it.
Does voyeurism unleash other obscure mind games and does it teach sex couching or lazy sex, watching without doing or self sex mastibatuory sex for example.
It is very easy to watch and not easy to get it done. We humans have the tendency to procrastinate over routine and what is accessibly easy.
Voyeurism is another passive form sexual gratification that has no other element involved in it apart from the act of watching. It is not active.
Is it good for you? I am not so sure.
It is a habit and it can be addictive. To what extent does actually push the mind and what does it do it is something I have not have the knowledge enough to answer.
I know I do not practice it and neither do I like it because I do not feel comfortable with it.

[QuadrusPenseros]

When did you first dis( )cover porn?

[cacian]

When did you first dis( )cover porn?

LOL let see about four years ago. I have to admit my world got shaken and stirred even since.

[stlukesguild]

Let's ask one of those cacian-like questions: What is Porn? How do you define it?

[Buh4Bee]

St. Lukes- I think you are deviating from the norm by actually posting on this thread.

[cacian]

Let's ask one of those cacian-like questions: What is Porn? How do you define it?

Porn is sex glamourised acted by actors who fake sexual acts for the pleasure of the viewer who is lured into fantaisies of another world.
Porn is not real.

[Maximilianus]

Not sure what sort of porn you've had the chance to analyze, but in this dimension porn scenes seldom show a bit of glamorized sex if meant in the sense of elegance; maybe in erotic movies, but that's another matter. Now, if glamor is meant in the sense of making acts appear as different from what they really are, then maybe though not exactly.

Perhaps not in other dimensions, but in this dimension porn stars don't usually fake anything. It would be a fake if it didn't actually happen, like when an actor pretends to kill another while filming a murder scene. Much on the contrary, in the porn industry people are openly engaged in explicit acts performed not only for the amusement of viewers but also for the performers' own. Otherwise, they wouldn't look so joyful as they proceed. As for fantasies, porn stars develop techniques imitated by, at the very least, some of the viewers. From that point, porn ceases to be a fantasy because it acquires a definite shape.

Depravities are real precisely because the depraved are real.

[cacian]

HI Maximillianus I am sure someone said to me that porn is all an act. The porn actors are professional and so everything they do is acted therefore fake.
The reality of porn is that it is not possible to perform in reality. There are too many digressed impossible acts such as group and more then two people engaged in a sex act that it becomes unreachable. All actors are paid well to perform sex under the viewing casts of directors and directions and so on and it cannot be real.
What do you mean by depravities?

[neilgee]

There is a girl living in a flat overlooking our house who strips off without bothering to close her curtains. She knows I watch (if I'm lucky) and some girls genuinely do things like that for free simply because they enjoy the attention. To me that is proper voyeurism, when the girl gets something out of it and the watcher does as well, the internet can never ever replicate that. To me watching sex on the internet is just a continuation of blue movies etc, in other words I don't believe it has changed anything in the mindset of what the original poster calls a voyeur, it's just made it easier for them, but in real life there's nothing like the feeling that it is being done willingly. You just can't beat that feeling of give and take. Is that any more real than the internet, after all it's still a show, as far as I know neither of us intend to take it any further, well I think it is more real and that you are misusing the term "voyeur" in this thread.

I have no interest in watching couples in sexual action, I agree with the earlier poster because there's something creepy about that to me too.

I think we're in danger of beginning to pretend that the internet is as real as "real life" in voyeuristic terms and no that is just not true.

[Maximilianus]

HI Maximilianus
Hi! http://smiles.kolobok.us/remake/bye.gif


I am sure someone said to me that porn is all an act. The porn actors are professional and so everything they do is acted therefore fake.
You've been misinformed. You don't need much professionalism to make a career in the porn industry. A bit of excessive lust for sex and money is good enough.


The reality of porn is that it is not possible to perform in reality. There are too many digressed impossible acts such as group and more then two people engaged in a sex act that it becomes unreachable.
Wrong again. It is not possible to perform for people who don't adhere to the obscenities that porn strongly relies on. When you live by obscenity you are capable of any act, including those you can't imagine at this very moment.


All actors are paid well to perform sex under the viewing casts of directors and directions and so on and it cannot be real.
Correct, it's a very profitable business.
Incorrect, in the sense that they are paid well precisely to make it real, and to make something real you have to carry on with the process from beginning to end. That's precisely why they get a nice payment for it.


What do you mean by depravities?
Depravity: an action that is perverted or extremely wrong in a moral sense; moral debasement.

[cacian]

QUOTE=neilgee;1185787]There is a girl living in a flat overlooking our house who strips off without bothering to close her curtains. She knows I watch (if I'm lucky) and some girls genuinely do things like that for free simply because they enjoy the attention.

lol well you must be a lucky just be careful she does not accuse you of stalking. You never know someone who craves that much attention would go the extra mile to get more attention. I'd be ware of it.


To me that is proper voyeurism, when the girl gets something out of it and the watcher does as well, the internet can never ever replicate that. To
I think you have just put your finger on it. To be truthfully honest with you I don't get what you or she gets out of it.
Watching is watching we watch tv all the time. What do I get out of it? Stuff that I wish I had never watched.
The thing about watching is that if it is not always the stuff I had in mind or even chosen and so to watch something I am not prepared for is rather strange. I like to watch stuff that I am mentally in control with, things that make sense to me because it involves me with it.
I like to watch in order to practice that makes sense to me. I don't like to be watched because I have absolutely no control over it. I am totally at blank with it because I have no idea what is going on in the eyes of the watcher. In fact I do not want to even go there. So I will not partake in it in case I put myself in danger.
Predatory is all through watching.



me watching sex on the internet is just a continuation of blue movies etc, in other words I don't believe it has changed anything in the mindset of what the original poster calls a voyeur, it's just made it easier for them, but in real life there's nothing like the feeling that it is being done willingly. You just can't beat that feeling of give and take. Is that any more real than the internet, after all it's still a show, as far as I know neither of us intend to take it any further, well I think it is more real and that you are misusing the term "voyeur" in this thread.

You see that is where I completely do not get it. To watch sex is like reading a magazine when I finish I close it and move on the buy another one and so on that is the only thing I do because I was not involved whilst I was watching.
Watching is not real in the sense that I am not taking part I am just given a visual to stare at and then that is it. Woops that was quick and memory is ever so shifting and does not retain what it does not recognise as habitual something you physically do too.

I have no interest in watching couples in sexual action, I agree with the earlier poster because there's something creepy about that to me too.

I think we're in danger of beginning to pretend that the internet is as real as "real life" in voyeuristic terms and no that is just not true.
Well the internet is just something to do when we are not able to move or think.


Hi! http://smiles.kolobok.us/remake/bye.gif


You've been misinformed. You don't need much professionalism to make a career in the porn industry. A bit of excessive lust for sex and money is good enough.


Wrong again. It is not possible to perform for people who don't adhere to the obscenities that porn strongly relies on. When you live by obscenity you are capable of any act, including those you can't imagine at this very moment.


Correct, it's a very profitable business.
Incorrect, in the sense that they are paid well precisely to make it real, and to make something real you have to carry on with the process from beginning to end. That's precisely why they get a nice payment for it.


Depravity: an action that is perverted or extremely wrong in a moral sense; moral debasement.

Hi Maximilianus:seeya:
Interesting read your posts.
The two words that stood out for me are:
Obscenity and depravity. I have no idea but I somehow feel sorry for ''sex' because I think it needs to live up to a bit more then obscene and depraved. What about love feelings and making babies?
Sex must be valued for what it is because one of its primary role is reproduction and that for me is more important and valuable for humanity then lowering the nature of sex to an overabused ideal. Sex need to be treated respectfully if we are to live forever as a human race.
We must look after sex if sex is to look after us.

[Scheherazade]

We must look after sex if sex is to look after us.:smilielol5:

This is, no doubt, one of the funniest things I have read recently.

[Maximilianus]

The two words that stood out for me are:
Obscenity and depravity. I have no idea but I somehow feel sorry for ''sex' because I think it needs to live up to a bit more then obscene and depraved. What about love feelings and making babies?
Sex must be valued for what it is because one of its primary role is reproduction and that for me is more important and valuable for humanity then lowering the nature of sex to an overabused ideal. Sex need to be treated respectfully if we are to live forever as a human race.
We must look after sex if sex is to look after us.
Well, I always try to keep an optimistic mindset about most things. After all, there are still many people out there making love and not just getting laid http://smilys.net/other_smilies/smiley5183.gif There's still hope, I believe, and deviations have always been in vogue, only that in modern times they're more noticeable due to the mass media technologies.


:smilielol5:

This is, no doubt, one of the funniest things I have read recently.
Our cacian indeed has a touch of her own when saying things :p

[neilgee]

lol well you must be a lucky just be careful she does not accuse you of stalking. You never know someone who craves that much attention would go the extra mile to get more attention. I'd be ware of it.

I know you are right here, a woman like this is not "normal" in the broadest sense, but I've always liked women like this (exhibitionists) so I go the extra mile to try to understand them, even to the point of dating them (once) but it was never mentioned (her exhibitionism).



I think you have just put your finger on it. To be truthfully honest with you I don't get what you or she gets out of it.
I think sexuality reveals how different people are more than any other aspect of our personalities because it's something we have to face, whereas other aspects of our personality that don't "fit in" are easier to supress...I don't want to give the impression that this sort of thing happens to me all the time, it doesn't, it's happened maybe 5 times in my life, but I am like this in my relationships too, I always like to make a woman feel that she's the most gorgeous woman in the world, it's just the way I am. If a woman wants to bask in the feeling that she's beautiful and I am capable of making her feel beautiful then I get off on that, maybe it's a power thing, I don't know, but it's empowering to her too.


Well the internet is just something to do when we are not able to move or think.

I was watching a documentary the other day that pointed out that charisma doesn't exist without an audience to create it, it's part of a relationship between the charismatic fiure and the audience, I think it's the same with beauty, beauty isn't truly beautiful until it's reflected through another's eyes:) :)

Sorry I haven't got the hang of the quotes on here... Sorry again, it's okay I edited it properly.

[stlukesguild]

cacian- Porn is sex glamourised acted by actors who fake sexual acts for the pleasure of the viewer who is lured into fantaisies of another world.
Porn is not real.

I am sure someone said to me that porn is all an act. The porn actors are professional and so everything they do is acted therefore fake.
The reality of porn is that it is not possible to perform in reality. There are too many digressed impossible acts such as group and more then two people engaged in a sex act that it becomes unreachable. All actors are paid well to perform sex under the viewing casts of directors and directions and so on and it cannot be real.
What do you mean by depravities?

Cacian... I seriously don't know where you get some of your ideas. To an extent the sex in pornography is glamorized... but this doesn't make it "fake". Nor does the fact that pornography involves "professionals" make it "fake". Does this carry other to other professions? Is everything enacted by a professional "fake"? Seriously, there is pornography that does not involve "professionals"... and there are sexual acts or experiences carried out by everyday "real" that involve fantasies and play-acting.

The acts of porn are not possible to perform in reality? I suppose there are "unreal" aspects of pornography related to stamina and "enhanced" body parts, and artful lighting and camera angles... although in all reality most pornography employs very little in terms of "art". The entire point of pornography and voyeurism is that one is indeed watching others have real sex... whether it is choreographed, involves certain artful enhancements, and whether the participants are paid professionals or amateurs. To suggest that it is not "real" makes about as much sense as to suggest that sex involving a prostitute is not "real".

"Reality" has nothing to do with our own personal preferences or ideals.

[Maximilianus]

I was watching a documentary the other day that pointed out that charisma doesn't exist without an audience to create it, it's part of a relationship between the charismatic fiure and the audience, I think it's the same with beauty, beauty isn't truly beautiful until it's reflected through another's eyes:) :)
Yes, most things are a two-way matter.


[COLOR="#B22222"]I suppose there are "unreal" aspects of pornography related to stamina and "enhanced" body parts, and artful lighting and camera angles... although in all reality most pornography employs very little in terms of "art"
Every now and then one can stumble upon an epochal porn movie with a plot settled in a particular time in history. Such movies might show a sort of artistic touch, but it is true that art per se is not a requirement in the pornographic arts :p

[cacian]

.....and there are sexual acts or experiences carried out by everyday "real" that involve fantasies and play-acting.
Exactly so you do say that play-acting is based on fantasies. Are fantasies real?
I suppose I could define fantasy as a mischievous sex indulgence of some form.
Play-acting is imitation therefore it is questionable whether it is real or not the same goes for role play. A bit like acting where the actors perform sex scenes that they claim are not real although there is a lot of physical contact including kissing.
I guess that is one thing I would do not be able to do if I were an actor and that is indulge in a lot of kissing.
I like acting though shame that for an actor you have to be able to go all the way physically and emotionally.

[Varenne Rodin]

Being naked is fun. Seeing someone you're attracted to naked is fun.

If there is penetration, or in other cases just orgasm, the sex is real; filmed or not.

[tonywalt]

Pornography (from what I've read about Pornography - I should note that I am far too busy with Church, studying the ancient religious scripts and directives, and outbursts of Song and Praise to actually watch it) is in large part amateur now - alot of "pro-amateur" couples.

This supports the fact that there is intrinsic value found in pornography with the Voyeuristic aspect being a large part of that reward for people. It's not just about extrinsic reward. Some have paysites, but it's hardly striking gold for most.

[cacian]

Haha tony you are spot on.
And I am sorry to hear you are too busy with mundane activities churches especially take up a lot of time if you let them. :biggrin5:

I ten to skip religions and dense scripts and texts. I have a much better time without them and not it does not include voyeurism or sex.
Good time is not sex to me anyway.

[stlukesguild]

Well cacian... if you're not having a good time with sex, somebody's doing something wrong.

[manuscript]

are you good at doing the right thing, stlukesguild?

[tonywalt]

Good time is not sex to me anyway.

Cacian,

Meaning?

[cacian]

Well cacian... if you're not having a good time with sex, somebody's doing something wrong.
Sure but it never bothered me. I can think of much better things to do then sex. I am straight forward with things I just do not like lying around in bed too much. I like physical activity of a different like cycling and getting being out in the sunshine.


Cacian,

Meaning?

Well sex for me is more a function. I have sex if I want children otherwise I can't be bothered. I get bored quickly with sex. I now I sound boring but that is me sex is important but up to a point.

[tonywalt]

Sure but it never bothered me. I can think of much better things to do then sex. I am straight forward with things I just do not like lying around in bed too much. I like physical activity of a different like cycling and getting being out in the sunshine.

Well sex for me is more a function. I have sex if I want children otherwise I can't be bothered. I get bored quickly with sex. I now I sound boring but that is me sex is important but up to a point.

Cool! I am never surprised by any of your views. If you date guys do you let them no this up front or they figure it out along the way?

[cacian]

Cool! I am never surprised by any of your views. If you date guys do you let them no this up front or they figure it out along the way?

Hold on haha how do you are not surprised by any of my views?! :goof:
Anyway dating is brilliant and it is all instantaneous fun but sex is not my priority at first for some reason. I don't put any stress on anything I just let things happen as they would.
I do not supress anything or pretend either.
I have been told by an ex that his ex girlfriends use to fake it and thus from time to time he would turn it against me which really got to me.
I do not pretend or fake it I just would not do it if I do not want to.

[Varenne Rodin]

Sure but it never bothered me. I can think of much better things to do then sex. I am straight forward with things I just do not like lying around in bed too much. I like physical activity of a different like cycling and getting being out in the sunshine.



Well sex for me is more a function. I have sex if I want children otherwise I can't be bothered. I get bored quickly with sex. I now I sound boring but that is me sex is important but up to a point.

Maybe you should try sex on a bicycle or in the sunshine.

[tonywalt]

Maybe you should try sex on a bicycle or in the sunshine.

Cacian, Not to nag, but Do wear sunscreen!- if you have bicycle sex in the blazing sun.


Hold on haha how do you are not surprised by any of my views?! :goof:
Anyway dating is brilliant and it is all instantaneous fun but sex is not my priority at first for some reason. I don't put any stress on anything I just let things happen as they would.
I do not supress anything or pretend either.
I have been told by an ex that his ex girlfriends use to fake it and thus from time to time he would turn it against me which really got to me.
I do not pretend or fake it I just would not do it if I do not want to.

Well, if your'e not really much into sex, it would be little surprise if you didn't lose sleep over fake orgasms.

[Calidore]

Maybe you should try sex on a bicycle or in the sunshine.

Damn, beat me to it.

Still, on a sunny day, bicycle to an empty cornfield or whatever they have around London, and go to it. Sex itself is very aerobic and good for you.

[Jerrybaldy]

Cacian, I think the elephant in the room is your incerdible naiviety in all you have posted on this subject. You don't like sex much and thats fine, some people don't like tuna sandwiches, but your lack of understanding of what you are posting about is breath taking. The internet allows access to sexual images I could only have dreamt of as a kid stealing my step fathers jazz mags. Over exposure and ease of access creates a different generation. Some people get turned on by seeing others some dont. A part of pornagraphy's attraction is its dirtiness and taboo. Sex is always more exciting when its taboo, dirty etc. The Victorians gifted us this. You are an innocent abroad in all you have posted here. But sex isnt for everybody and at least you do not pretend it interests you. Just dont understand why you started this post. Sex for having children only? Strewth.

Varenne. Not for the first time in postings I have read of yours, you make perfect sense. To me.

[Maximilianus]

Maybe you should try sex on a bicycle or in the sunshine.
http://smiles.kolobok.us/artists/laie/Laie_76C.gif http://smiles.kolobok.us/artists/laie/LaieA_018.gif http://smiles.kolobok.us/artists/laie/LaieA_044.gif

[Varenne Rodin]

Haha. Tony, Calidore, Jerry, Max... <3<3<3<3

[Calidore]

Haha. Tony, Calidore, Jerry, Max... <3<3<3<3

I can't decide if those are supposed to be sideways hearts or we're all being mooned.

[Maximilianus]

Knowing Var, I'd say sideways hearts :)

[cacian]

Cacian, I think the elephant in the room is your incerdible naiviety in all you have posted on this subject. You don't like sex much and thats fine, some people don't like tuna sandwiches, but your lack of understanding of what you are posting about is breath taking. The internet allows access to sexual images I could only have dreamt of as a kid stealing my step fathers jazz mags. Over exposure and ease of access creates a different generation. Some people get turned on by seeing others some dont. A part of pornagraphy's attraction is its dirtiness and taboo. Sex is always more exciting when its taboo, dirty etc. The Victorians gifted us this. You are an innocent abroad in all you have posted here. But sex isnt for everybody and at least you do not pretend it interests you. Just dont understand why you started this post. Sex for having children only? Strewth.

Varenne. Not for the first time in postings I have read of yours, you make perfect sense. To me.

Jerrybaldy you like sex and that is I think most people would agree they do too.
But I am sure you like it for different reasons from me.
I like sex because it has its importance in my eyes and that is it allows me to have children. I think that is a fair say.
Voyeurism is not doing sex is watching. That is a big difference hence the thread.
I am not concerned about the doing sex because anyone can. You do not need a lesson to have sex everyone can have sex.
Voyeurism from the word 'VOIR' means 'LOOK' is not doing it is watching.
That is what I am wishing to discuss. I am surprised you did not see that.
A bit like walking into a strip club. You walk into the bar you watch men or women take their clothes off you get turned on they don't then you get up and go. Where is the sex in that?


Cacian, Not to nag, but Do wear sunscreen!- if you have bicycle sex in the blazing sun.


Well, if your'e not really much into sex, it would be little surprise if you didn't lose sleep over fake orgasms.

It was not me that lost sleep over it was my ex who did he was convinced I faked it. It goes to show how sex can manipulate when you do it without meaning it. Sex is important but not as a routine I would impose in my life. I would not however loose sleep over it if I do not have it for a while.
I can go without it for a while without caring is what I am trying to say.

[Jerrybaldy]

I have no idea cacian because people don't profess to have had sex when they have just visited a strip club. The reason they go I guess is the same as the young boy with his nose pressed flat against the bakery shop window.

Trust me I am no expert but I would guess sex is almost entirely in the mind. People watching porn etc are therefore feeding their minds, so must surely be sexual intellectuals ,whilst all the people actually taking part in sexual activity are manual workers. I rest my case. :D

[Scheherazade]

I wonder what kind of correlation exists between one's extracurricular activities and number of posts they accumulate.

*suddenly feeling uncomfortable with my 22K*

[cacian]

LOL mine is rather catching up I guess:

*4,582*
I admit I like to chat more. :blush:

Although I guess whilst at the internet one can also surf other venues whilst posting. Multitasking especially when voyeurism is involved.

[cacian]

I have no idea cacian because people don't profess to have had sex when they have just visited a strip club. The reason they go I guess is the same as the young boy with his nose pressed flat against the bakery shop window.

Trust me I am no expert but I would guess sex is almost entirely in the mind. People watching porn etc are therefore feeding their minds, so must surely be sexual intellectuals ,whilst all the people actually taking part in sexual activity are manual workers. I rest my case. :D

Well I am guessing that most of the time then none one goes to watch because of few reasons
one is that one is not getting any.
or
one is addicted to it and knows no better.
or
one goes because one can. One has the has the money it is easy access and one does not have to do anything at all.
A voyeur gets to see/watch and whether he or she gets to imagine to get the kick I have no idea.
I don't watch.

[Varenne Rodin]

I can't decide if those are supposed to be sideways hearts or we're all being mooned.


Knowing Var, I'd say sideways hearts :)

Definitely sideways hearts. :)

[ftil]

Much on the contrary, in the porn industry people are openly engaged in explicit acts performed not only for the amusement of viewers but also for the performers' own.
Otherwise, they wouldn't look so joyful as they proceed.

You've been misinformed. You don't need much professionalism to make a career in the porn industry. A bit of excessive lust for sex and money is good enough.

To an extent the sex in pornography is glamorized... but this doesn't make it "fake".
Nor does the fact that pornography involves "professionals" make it "fake".
To suggest that it is not "real" makes about as much sense as to suggest that sex involving a prostitute is not "real".

Being naked is fun. Seeing someone you're attracted to naked is fun.

If there is penetration, or in other cases just orgasm, the sex is real; filmed or not.


These are a few quotes written by members about porn actors and sex. Well, I don’t know if those opinions are based on glamorized idea about porn actors, rationalization, or lack of knowledge about movies production. I have experience making documentary movies and every single scene was repeated 3 times.
How porn actors can enjoy sex in the front of camera with stops and cuts repeated hundred times?

Second, the most important issues have not been addressed here. Porn actresses face abuse and resulting from abuse flashbacks and trauma symptoms, drug and alcohol addiction, sexual diseases, and many other emotional, mental and psychical problems.

These are a few videos where a former porn actresses talk about their very painful experience.


Inside Pornography Industry - Pyrrhic Series Part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUVPvNh7WC0



Ex Porn Star Tells the Hardcore Truth About Porn 2 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5B5E0K2K_A



Finally, we need to talk about the impact of watching pornography on relationships. There is no free lunch and those who promote pornography don’t want us to know.



Long before the Internet, the father of modern sexology warned of desensitization. Alfred C. Kinsey cautioned his photographer Clarence Tripp that, "As soon as we get you to photographing sex every day and paying attention to sex right, left and center, pretty soon nothing will turn you on, nothing in the area, nothing visual will turn you on. Because you'll lose all those sensitivities."

For the same reason, Kinsey counseled his staff to "Be cautious with sadomasochism because the human body adjusts rapidly, and so levels of pain can escalate rapidly." [James H. Jones, Alfred C. Kinsey, W.W. Norton & Company (1997): 610] Unfortunately, many of today's experts have forgotten Kinsey's warnings, which were based on his personal experience. They teach only, "If it feels good, do more of it."
In fact, however, desensitization is having a major impact today. The more some people rely on cyber erotica, the more frequently they may feel the "need" to climax, and the more extreme material they often require to get the job done. For many, erections also grow weaker. Escalation and youthful erectile dysfunction are often signs that someone is inadvertently numbing the brain to subtler pleasures.

Desensitization is an addiction process related to a drop in dopaminesensitivity. Nora Volkow MD, Director of NIDA, explains:

Once the brain becomes less sensitive to dopamine, it "becomes less sensitive to natural reinforcers" such as the "pleasure of seeing a friend, watching a movie, or the curiosity that drives exploration."

Becoming restless in your relationship due to too much porn use isn't a character defect. It occurs because too much stimulation causes physical changes in your brain. These may be gradual, but for some, the introduction of high speed porn is the turning point for radical desensitization.

High speed porn changed everything. I began masturbating more than once a day. If I didn't feel like masturbating, but wanted to relieve stressor go to sleep, porn helped me get aroused. I found myself looking at porn prior to sex with my wife because she just couldn't do it for me anymore. Delayed ejaculation was a huge problem: I could no longer orgasm from oral sex and I sometimes had difficulty with orgasm in a vagina. I masturbated after sex with my wife because I couldn't get off any other way, and sometimes even masturbation didn't work. Once I eliminated porn from the equation (which hasn't been easy), my masturbation frequency dropped and my sex life improved.

Imagine if you were on an extreme rollercoaster for 10 years straight. Then you get off the rollercoaster and have to make do with the swings at a children's play area. After 10 years of extreme rollercoaster riding, you won't be able to obtain any kind of buzz from the simplicity of the swings. You have become desensitized. Porn ruined my appreciation of and responsiveness to normal sexual acts, and masturbation to porn ruined the sensitivity of my penis so that the gentle caress of a lover was barely noticeable. It was so used to being pounded with a sledgehammer that when it came to being tickled with a feather, I didn't even notice. Unless I felt something pretty hard and heavy, it simply didn't register.
Feeling so emotionally numb to every girl I've dated also caused me to doubt myself. This led me to suspect that I was gay. I am not. Once my brain started to heal, I became much more interested in all girls.

The good news is that former users can indeed reverse this desensitization. They give their brains a rest from frequent sexual stimulation (sexual fantasy, masturbation, orgasm) and steer clear of porn. It's tough. Most experience weeks of uncomfortable, temporary withdrawal symptoms, such as mood swings (irritability, anxiety, despair, apathy, restlessness), insomnia, fatigue, very frequent urination, intense cravings or flat libido, etc.

To read an article: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201202/guys-who-gave-porn-sex-and-romance
http://www.socialcostsofpornography.com/Paul_How_Porn_Became_the_Norm.pdf


To read an article: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201202/guys-who-gave-porn-sex-and-romance



More about the impact of pornography on well being

http://www.socialcostsofpornography.com/Paul_How_Porn_Became_the_Norm.pdf




http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201202/guys-who-gave-porn-sex-and-romance

[stlukesguild]

These are a few quotes written by members about porn actors and sex. Well, I don’t know if those opinions are based on glamorized idea about porn actors, rationalization, or lack of knowledge about movies production. I have experience making documentary movies and every single scene was repeated 3 times.

How porn actors can enjoy sex in the front of camera with stops and cuts repeated hundred times?

Perhaps you have some experience with regard to film production... but little or no experience with regard to the production of porno films. From what I've seen in my lifetime... which admittedly has not involved an in-depth study approaching my grasp of art or literature... the vast majority have exhibitted little or no redeeming aesthetic merit whatsoever. In other words... the directors don't concern themselves with retakes because the lighting... or the moaning wasn't quite what they had in mind.

Second, the most important issues have not been addressed here. Porn actresses face abuse and resulting from abuse flashbacks and trauma symptoms, drug and alcohol addiction, sexual diseases, and many other emotional, mental and psychical problems.

These issues have been discussed ad nauseum in other threads. To reiterate what others pointed out, there are many careers that are less than ideal... that can result in in excessive stress, alcoholism, and various emotion problems.

These are a few videos where a former porn actresses talk about their very painful experience.

And have you researched alternative voices? There can be no real scientific consensus when we just consider information that supports our own beliefs or biases.

Finally, we need to talk about the impact of watching pornography on relationships.

Why do we "need" to talk about this at all? Are we assuming pornography... let alone prostitution is something new? Are we assuming that men are the only one's to use pornography? It seems logical that one could become addicted to pornography and that it could become abused... but the same can be said of many other things: alcohol, drugs, cigarettes... as well as various forms of behavior.

What are you hinting at? Censorship?

[Joreads]

Well cacian... if you're not having a good time with sex, somebody's doing something wrong.

Could not have said it better myself:smilewinkgrin:

[ftil]

Originally posted by stlukesguild

Perhaps you have some experience with regard to film production... but little of no experience with regard to the production of porno films. From what I've seen in my lifetime, the vast majority have little or no redeeming aesthetic merit whatsoever. In other words... the directors don't concern themselves with retakes because the lighting... or the moaning was quite what they had in mind.

I don’t have experience with porn movies. You, on the contrary, don’t have any experience with movie production. Otherwise, you wouldn’t write such a silly response. :crazy:


And have you researched alternative voices? There can be no real scientific consensus when we just consider information that supports our own beliefs or biases.

My beliefs, eh? I talked to two former prostitutes who shared their painful story. They both were addicted to alcohol and drugs and suffered abuse and violence. One of the women got MA in counseling and has spent 20+working with prostitutes. Tell her that she supports her own beliefs or bias!

But it sounds that you support pornography, rejecting those who speak about their painful experience and exploitation or those who speak on their behalf. It makes me sick.



Why do we "need" to talk about this at all? Are we assuming pornography... let alone prostitution is something new? Are we assuming that men are the only one's to use pornography? It seems logical that one could become addicted to pornography and that it could become abused... but the same can be said of many other things: alcohol, drugs, cigarettes... as well as various forms of behavior.

?

Oh, we don’t need to talk about it. After all, those who heavily push it want us be blind.
BTW, you didn’t even read the second article to which I posted a link. It was not only about men but also women too.

How bias is that??????



What are you hinting at? Censorship?

You know very well what I was talking about. :reddevil:

[stlukesguild]

I don’t have experience with porn movies. You, on the contrary, don’t have any experience with movie production. Otherwise, you wouldn’t write such a silly response.

Au contraire, mon ami, I have indeed worked on a couple of sets... back when I lived in New York. The most drawn-out and boring of experiences. So what is "silly" about my response? Do you imagine dozens of retakes? There are any number of genre in which a film-maker needs to be able to get it all down in a single take. This is true of any live telecast, be it of a sporting event, a live tv show etc... It is also true of documentaries of certain events such as concerts, the ballet, etc... The film-makers who are documenting the Metropolitan Opera's latest performance of La Traviata don't have the luxury of asking Anna Netrebko to stop and sing that certain aria a second time. Perhaps your grasp of the film-making process is less secure than you would have us believe.

My beliefs, eh? I talked to two former prostitutes who shared their painful story. They both were addicted to alcohol and drugs and suffered abuse and violence. One of the women got MA in counseling and has spent 20+working with prostitutes. Tell her that she supports her own beliefs or bias!

How do personal anecdotes count as proof of anything? I knew someone who had a bad experience in the hospital... thus I should assume that the hospitals, doctors, the whole medical profession are suspect?

But it sounds that you support pornography, rejecting those who speak about their painful experience and exploitation or those who speak on their behalf. It makes me sick.

Pornography is a branch or genre of art. Stripped to its most basic, pornography is the explicit portrayal of sexual subject matter or sexual acts. We can argue endlessly as to where we personally might draw the line between the "erotic" and the "pornographic" but ultimately they are one and the same... the only difference being aesthetic content/intent... which is always open to debate. There are paintings and sculpture that might fall under the rubric of landscape, portraiture, still-life, mythological narratives, etc... And there are paintings and sculpture that might be deemed as pornographic. The same is true of literature. We have poetry, science fiction, fantasy, mystery... and pornography. Of course film can also be divided into various genre: science fiction, horror, romance, thrillers... pornography. The term "pornographic" says nothing of the relative aesthetic merits of the work of art. It simply defines the work as being an explicit portrayal of sexual subjects and acts. Certainly, the majority is crap... but so is the majority of horror and romance films.

I am not acting as a defendant or supporter of pornography, but rather, as an artist, I am questioning the concept of censorship.

There are some actresses who have had painful experiences working in pornography? Were they not adults? Did they not make the decision to participate or work in a given field? I have had some damn painful and stressful experiences working as a teacher. They were part and parcel of the job. If the job becomes too much for me... I walk away.

How many actors and actresses and pop stars have been psychologically damaged by fame and their career? Do we call for the elimination of film and television and pop music as a result? Do we assume the responsibility for the deaths of Elvis, Buddy Holly, John Lennon, Janice Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Marilyn Monroe, etc...?

Are there real instances of abuse and manipulation? Certainly... and these should be dealt with. As in nearly any area of human interaction we need guidelines and over-site... but outside of taking the extreme stance of censorship, we will always be confronted with abuse and the lack of common sense.

Why do we "need" to talk about this at all? Are we assuming pornography... let alone prostitution is something new? Are we assuming that men are the only one's to use pornography? It seems logical that one could become addicted to pornography and that it could become abused... but the same can be said of many other things: alcohol, drugs, cigarettes... as well as various forms of behavior.

Oh, we don’t need to talk about it. After all, those who heavily push it want us be blind.

Of course those who profit from a given product or service are unlikely to want to draw attention to the potential negative side affects. So why is a literature site the forum to discuss such?

What are you hinting at? Censorship?

You know very well what I was talking about.

I think that what you are talking about here is something that is often open to confusion. So if you are not calling for censorship, what is your aim? Are you playing the "church lady" out to shame others whose values or standards differ from your own?

[cacian]

Let just say that there are no standards as far as porn is concerned but what there is people and that is a standard, the only standard there is.
If porn does not regulate it's because nobodies knows how to. It is easy to just do and not not to do.
To regulate anything is to regulate people and that is the basic and perhaps the most intricate thing to do.

[ftil]

Originally posted by stlukesguild
Au contraire, mon ami, I have indeed worked on a couple of sets... back when I lived in New York. The most drawn-out and boring of experiences. So what is "silly" about my response? Do you imagine dozens of retakes? There are any number of genre in which a film-maker needs to be able to get it all down in a single take. This is true of any live telecast, be it of a sporting event, a live tv show etc... It is also true of documentaries of certain events such as concerts, the ballet, etc... The film-makers who are documenting the Metropolitan Opera's latest performance of La Traviata don't have the luxury of asking Anna Netrebko to stop and sing that certain aria a second time. Perhaps your grasp of the film-making process is less secure than you would have us believe.

My oh my. You may try to convince the reader that you know something about movie production.
I didn’t talk about concerts. Filming concerts or other live events is very different than making documentary movies, not mentioning feature films. If you really have spent only one day on shooting, you would be laughing at yourself. :smilielol5:


How do personal anecdotes count as proof of anything? I knew someone who had a bad experience in the hospital... thus I should assume that the hospitals, doctors, the whole medical profession are suspect?

Personal anecdote, eh? Are you kidding or you are out of argument? A woman who was a prostitute and spent 20 years + counseling prostitutes is a personal anecdote? Why those women I posted a video say exactly the same as she as well as another former prostitute I have mentioned? I could give more examples….it is good that those women have courage to speak up and to expose exploitation and violence and all the danger that porn actresses face.


Pornography is a branch or genre of art.


Art? You may ignore what is really going on behind the scene. Perhaps, you should do a little research how many porn actresses committed suicide or OD?




There are some actresses who have had painful experiences working in pornography? Were they not adults? Did they not make the decision to participate or work in a given field? I have had some damn painful and stressful experiences working as a teacher. They were part and parcel of the job. If the job becomes too much for me... I walk away.

You are trying to make assumptions why they entered that field. Are you sitting in their heads?
Many of them have already been a prostitute before. Of course, those who support pornography glamorize prostitution or blame the prostitute for making her choices. There is a lot written about that subject by mental health professionals, particularly women. But you choose to deny it. I guess you love women to be exploited and abused.




I think that what you are talking about here is something that is often open to confusion. So if you are not calling for censorship, what is your aim? Are you playing the "church lady" out to shame others whose values or standards differ from yours.



LOL! “church lady” good one…..I don’t shame others……Do you call shaming others for openly speaking up against violence, abuse, and exploitation of women. Do you call it shaming others to openly talk about the impact of watching pornography on emotional, mental well being as well as relationship?????

I do care about people. There is a vast body of research that has shown that those who have deep and intimate relationships are the healthiest, happiest, and successful. Pornography takes it away.

Yes, my values are different than yours but speak for yourself, and please, don't assume that everybody thinks like you. :reddevil:

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your arguments.

We are here to discuss the issues highlighted in the OP, not each other.

Posts containing off-topic and/or personal comments will be removed without further notice.

~

[stlukesguild]

My oh my. You may try to convince the reader that you know something about movie production.
I didn’t talk about concerts. Filming concerts or other live events is very different than making documentary movies, not mentioning feature films. If you really have spent only one day on shooting, you would be laughing at yourself.

I'll not try to convince anyone that I am an expert on the production of films, but I do have two friends who are film-makers. The reality is that neither of us (to my knowledge) has any real experience in the filming of pornography... but from what I have seen, little of it involves any serious aesthetic considerations. You are assuming that a pornographic film is akin to a documentary, when it is far closer to filming a concert or other live performance. A good deal of the pornographic films today involve amateurs... couples filming their own sexual acts... or amateurs offered enticing sums of money to have sex on camera who go back to some seedy motel and do it in front of a couple jerks with cameras and a lighting man.

Personal anecdote, eh? Are you kidding or you are out of argument? A woman who was a prostitute and spent 20 years + counseling prostitutes is a personal anecdote?

You do understand the definition of "personal anecdote"? The personal experience of somebody... regardless of their years in the industry... related to another individual is nothing more than personal anecdote and not scientific proof of anything.

Why those women I posted a video say exactly the same as she as well as another former prostitute I have mentioned? I could give more examples….it is good that those women have courage to speak up and to expose exploitation and violence and all the danger that porn actresses face.

Again... all the tales of these women prove is that they personally felt they were abused or exploited. If you wish to prove that the entire industry is exploitative and abusive you need to far more data... and you need to include those who do not feel they are or were being abused or exploited. As it is... all you offer is anecdotes from those who share your view.

Pornography is a branch or genre of art.

Art? You may ignore what is really going on behind the scene.

What does that have to do with the question as to whether pornography is or is not "art"? There's a lot of abusive and exploitative crap that goes on behind the scenes in the theater, film, rock music, etc...

Perhaps, you should do a little research how many porn actresses committed suicide or OD?

Why? How many actresses, actors, pop musicians, poets, etc... have also committed suicide or ODed? Is that the fault of their career choice or the industry... or is it their own mental/psychological problems... or a combination of both?

There are some actresses who have had painful experiences working in pornography? Were they not adults? Did they not make the decision to participate or work in a given field? I have had some damn painful and stressful experiences working as a teacher. They were part and parcel of the job. If the job becomes too much for me... I walk away.

You are trying to make assumptions why they entered that field. Are you sitting in their heads?
Many of them have already been a prostitute before. Of course, those who support pornography glamorize prostitution or blame the prostitute for making her choices.

Money? Easy money? I'm sorry, but I actually have a stripper in my extended family. She chose the profession because she could make a good chunk of money... under the table (not reported on her taxes)... without a hell of a lot of work... and without having to put forth the effort to go back to school and gain some professional skills.

There is a lot written about that subject by mental health professionals, particularly women. But you choose to deny it. I guess you love women to be exploited and abused.

There is a reason why social workers and mental health "experts" are often looked upon as a pseudo-scientists. Quite often their claims are based on very little real scientific research. You want to suggest that those working as prostitutes or actresses in pornography are as a whole exploited and abused women. Have you really interviewed a good number of those working in the field... not merely those who regret it after the fact?

The reality is that a great many people work at any number of jobs that we cannot imagine doing ourselves. Some may do so because they believe they have no alternative. Some have self-esteem issues. Some, certainly, may be the victims of abuse or exploitation. I'm not idealistic enough to imagine that it is my role to "rescue" these people. I enjoy my strawberries in spite of the fact that I recognize that they were likely picked by grossly underpaid migrant workers. The same is true of my coffee. Most people, it seems obvious, have no thoughts of children working in Asian sweat shops... or they likely wouldn't buy those cheap sneakers, clothes, cell phones, MP3 players, and computers. Or perhaps you only buy union-made.

Do you call shaming others for openly speaking up against violence, abuse, and exploitation of women.

Give me a break. I am all for proper governmental over-site and regulations in order to curtail any abuse or exploitation. But I suspect that's not enough for you. Even if the industry were as squeaky clean as Disney purports to be, you'd be against it.

I'm also intrigued by the fact that you are obsessing over the supposed abuse and exploitation of women... yet you ignore the fact that at least half of the performers are male... and this doesn't even go into the realm of homosexual pornography.

Do you call it shaming others to openly talk about the impact of watching pornography on emotional, mental well being as well as relationship?????

In other words... you are assuming that those who watch (or read or look at) pornography inherently deviate from the "healthy" norm... as defined by whom??? And you, no doubt, are here to save them. And yet the numbers suggest that a huge percentage of the population as a whole... male and female... utilize... even enjoy pornography.

I do care about people. There is a vast body of research that has shown that those who have deep and intimate relationships are the healthiest, happiest, and successful. Pornography takes it away.

Yes, my values are different than yours but speak for yourself, and please, don't assume that everybody thinks like you.

In other words... you would define the healthiest, happiest, most successful people as being those who fit your moral or ethical standards?

[ftil]

Originally posted by stlukesguild

I'll not try to convince anyone that I am an expert on the production of films, but I do have two friends who are film-makers. The reality is that neither of us (to my knowledge) has any real experience in the filming of pornography... but from what I have seen, little of it involves any serious aesthetic considerations. You are assuming that a pornographic film is akin to a documentary, when it is far closer to filming a concert or other live performance. A good deal of the pornographic films today involve amateurs... couples filming their own sexual acts... or amateurs offered enticing sums of money to have sex on camera who go back to some seedy motel and do it in front of a couple jerks with cameras and a lighting man.

Well, having a few friends who are film-makers doesn’t give you any experience. It is like having a friend who is a surgeon and talking about bypass surgery.

Second, I didn’t assume that pornography film is akin to a documentary. Sorry, but nobody who made documentary movie would say that. The reason that I mentioned it is the fact that in documentary movie you repeat almost every single scene in a ratio 1:3. In feature films the ratio is much higher. Third, you are wrong assuming that pornographic films are closer to live events.

Finally, I don’t think so that they are made by armatures. Pornography is a big business and they can afford qualified staff. They need to have knowledge about filming, editing, and sound. Of course, they don’t hire director of photography who won Oscar. :lol:




There is a reason why social workers and mental health "experts" are often looked upon as a pseudo-scientists. Quite often their claims are based on very little real scientific research.

I am wondering what research you have read to make that statement.



I'm also intrigued by the fact that you are obsessing over the supposed abuse and exploitation of women... yet you ignore the fact that at least half of the performers are male... and this doesn't even go into the realm of homosexual pornography.

I am not obsessing over abuse and exploation of women. I have done my homework. I never talk about the subject I didn’t study. There is a vast body of research available. Second, I am a female and I let you do your homework and speak on behalf of men.



In other words... you are assuming that those who watch (or read or look at) pornography inherently deviate from the "healthy" norm... as defined by whom??? And you, no doubt, are here to save them. And yet the numbers suggest that a huge percentage of the population as a whole... male and female... utilize... even enjoy pornography.

Where did I say that? I posted two articles that talked about the impact of pornography such as, desensitization , decreased ability to be sexually aroused to a real partner, erectile dysfunction, withdrawals symptoms after braking the addiction, inability to develop a deep and intimate relationships to name a few. Don’t you think that it is enough warning?


In other words... you would define the healthiest, happiest, most successful people as being those who fit your moral or ethical standards?

I did not conduct those research but I have studied thoroughly. It is not about moral or ethical standards. Don't you think that to be healthy, happy, and successful is what humans strive for?

Well, if you didn’t take time to read those articles to understand the problem……..there is no point to discuss it further.

Try to argue the issues that were brought up there. ……I will be very curious and you would have my full attention. But bring research not your beliefs.

[stlukesguild]

Second, I didn’t assume that pornography film is akin to a documentary. Sorry, but nobody who made documentary movie would say that. The reason that I mentioned it is the fact that in documentary movie you repeat almost every single scene in a ratio 1:3. In feature films the ratio is much higher. Third, you are wrong assuming that pornographic films are closer to live events.

You of course know that for a fact... based upon your vast experience in the field?

Finally, I don’t think so that they are made by armatures. Pornography is a big business and they can afford qualified staff. They need to have knowledge about filming, editing, and sound. Of course, they don’t hire director of photography who won Oscar.

Again... this is based upon your vast experience in the industry... or watching films?

There is a reason why social workers and mental health "experts" are often looked upon as a pseudo-scientists. Quite often their claims are based on very little real scientific research.

I am not obsessing over abuse and exploation of women. I have done my homework. I never talk about the subject I didn’t study. There is a vast body of research available. Second, I am a female and I let you do your homework and speak on behalf of men.

Ah... yews, you are an expert in the field.:rolleyes5:

Where did I say that? I posted two articles that talked about the impact of pornography such as, desensitization , decreased ability to be sexually aroused to a real partner, erectile dysfunction, withdrawals symptoms after braking the addiction, inability to develop a deep and intimate relationships to name a few. Don’t you think that it is enough warning?

What exactly is your point... or your goal? You are here at a literature site where the topics discussed are primarily literature and the arts, yet your the focus of most of your posts have to do with your claims as to the negative psychological impacts of pornography, of Modern painting, or certain types of literature. You back up your claims with articles and supposed scientific research that few here likely have any interest in. One might suggest that a forum focusing upon psychology and/or science might be better suited to your aims... unless, of course, you realize that such forums would include individuals knowledgeable psychology and scientific research who would be more than capable of refuting your arguments... while here... well most of us likely don't care enough to look up and read research papers on the effects of pornography, etc...

Well, if you didn’t take time to read those articles to understand the problem……..there is no point to discuss it further.

In other words... if I don't read the specific papers that support your personal bias, there is nothing more to say. That seems fine with me.

[MarkBastable]

....my values are different than yours but speak for yourself, and please, don't assume that everybody thinks like you....


Ftil, you might like to take that advice. Apparently it comes from an impeccably self-righteous source.

[ftil]

Originally posted by stlukesguild

You of course know that for a fact... based upon your vast experience in the field?

I wouldn’t say vast experience. I have made 50+ documentary movies. It is a little more than having a few friends who are film-makers. ;)



Ah... yews, you are an expert in the field.

Where did I say that I was an expert? Would writing a thesis about violence and abuse in relationships give me a little knowledge?



What exactly is your point... or your goal? You are here at a literature site where the topics discussed are primarily literature and the arts, yet your the focus of most of your posts have to do with your claims as to the negative psychological impacts of pornography,

Mt point? Read the articles and you would know my point. BTW, I didn’t start this thread so that don’t blame me. It is 4th thread about pornography in a year. I didn’t start any one of them and I am curious why is such an interest about pornography on LitNet.



In other words... if I don't read the specific papers that support your personal bias, there is nothing more to say. That seems fine with me.


Wrong. Try to argue those points that were raised by the authors. BTW, how can you say that it is my personal bias without reading the articles? I guess we have a very different understanding what intelligent discussion means. It is not what we believe or not. BTW, have you noticed that rather then bringing your arguments you attempt to undermine my knowledge or experience? :lol:

[cacian]

Mt point? Read the articles and you would know my point. BTW, I didn’t start this thread so that don’t blame me. It is 4th thread about pornography in a year. I didn’t start any one of them and I am curious why is such an interest about pornography on LitNet

Hi Ftil pornography is a fact of reality and it is one of those things that people do not talk openly about but do a lot as some kind of ritual.
Talking about it sheds light about people's attitude on it.
I could imagine pornography being a ritual for some.

[ftil]

Hi Ftil pornography is a fact of reality and it is one of those things that people do not talk openly about but do a lot as some kind of ritual.
Talking about it sheds light about people's attitude on it.
I could imagine pornography being a ritual for some.

Yes, it is a fact of life. I don’t agree that people don’t talk openly about it. You will hear from the interview I have posted how wrong you are. I am wonder why the negative consequences I mentioned on my previous posts are scrupulously avoided.

But let’s leave aside abuse of porn actress, mental and emotional problems, or high prevalence of sexual diseases they suffer. Let’s leave the negative consequences for those who watch pornography such as decreased ability to be sexually aroused to a real partner, erectile dysfunction, withdrawals symptoms after braking the addiction, inability to develop a deep and intimate relationships to name a few.

Let’s leave aside that porn actress don’t enjoy sex and what is looks as a smooth sexual act is a result of editing.

Let’s look at a bigger picture how sex has been used as a tool of mass control and manipulation. Dr Michael Jones is the author of Libido Domionadi -Lust, Power, and Control.
His book reminds me about prof. Ioan Couliano’s Eros and Magic in Renaissance and Giordano Bruno, renaissance magician and occultist.

Bruno knew that love and sex is as he said” bond of bonds” and the most powerful tool of mass control. Bruno’s De vinculis in genere is considered a cornerstone of modern political thought. In fact, many Anglo Saxon and Middle European historians and intellectuals consider De vinculis in genere modernity’s most intelligent and insightful political work.

Dr Michael Jones explains how sex has been used for mass control and manipulation. Well done.


E. Michael Jones - Libido Dominandi - Part 1 of 7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8XkrZPZI2uU

[stlukesguild]

How much research have you done into your esteemed Dr. E. Michael Jones? From what I have gleaned after a brief perusal on the internet, it seems that Jones took extremist positions early on at while teaching at Saint Mary's College, of Notre Dame, Indiana. He disagreed with the more liberal and open-minded professors and felt that the college was "the antithesis of what a Catholic college should be: being pro-choice, feminist and secular." He made little effort to conceal his extreme conservative and antisemitic views, leading to conflicts with many faculty, his department chairwoman and eventually the college's president. His department, which viewed him as a religious absolutist, decided against renewing his contract after his first year.

Much of his research into sexuality and the "sexual revolution" centers upon the issues of friction between the Catholic Church and secular culture... and the Jews. Jones has stated publicly that he considers modern Judaism to be a wicked ideology. He has repeatedly sided with the Palestinians in debates over the Middle-East and portrayed Israel as a force of immorality and debauchery... as he does in your posted interview... claiming that the Israelis bombarded the Palestinians with broadcasts of pornography as a means of psychological control. Jones' theories are seen as so extreme that the Catholic League condemned his anti-Semitism and repudiated his efforts to justify it in the name of Catholic theology.

Jones publishes a magazine/e-magazine entitled Culture Wars in which he has increasingly focused on the alleged evils of the Jews. The magazine's cover stories over the last year or so are instructive: "Judaizing: Then and Now," "John Huss and the Jews," "The Converso Problem: Then and Now," "The Judaism of Hitler," "Shylock Comes to Notre Dame" and so on. Jones runs through all the usual anti-Semitic canards -- the ideas that "Jewish media elites" run the country, that Jews are "major players" in pornography, and that Jews are behind Masonry and the French Revolution -- but that's only the start. He also accuses Jews of poisoning society with thinkers such as Karl Marx (a devotee of Satan, says Jones) and Sigmund Freud (who set off an epidemic of sexual sin, he says). And he describes the World War II Nazi genocide of the Jews as "a reaction to Jewish Messianism (in the form of Bolshevism)." Last April, in an article raging about a new president of Notre Dame University, Jones charged that anyone who went to a mainstream university would emerge "with a Jewish world view … and maybe a Jewish spouse."

One need only read an excerpt from Jones' book Francis' Legacy to see that sexual freedom is simply a peripheral concern of the good doctor. His real focus is the Jews:

"If what is left of the WASP establishment wants to do something effective in the culture wars, they will have to understand just who the enemy is. In order to understand this, they will have to go back well beyond the 1960s. In fact, they will have to go back beyond the 18th century: to be precise, 1800 years before that, right back to the opening shot in the culture wars. This war began 2000 years ago at the foot of the cross, when the Jewish high priests, Annas and Caiphas, said to Jesus Christ, “If you come down from the cross, we will accept you as our Messiah.”

Needless to say, Jesus did not come down from the cross. And because he didn’t, the Jews rejected Him. Instead, they chose Barabbas, a bandit who had been condemned to death for his revolutionary activities. At once, by doing this—by preferring a notorious criminal to a man of spotless innocence who had come to redeem them—the Jews became revolutionaries themselves: condemned to seek heaven on earth by following one false Messiah after another from Simon bar Kokhbar to Shabbetai Zevi, from Alex Portnoy to Paul Wolfowitz.

As my friend Sam Francis used to say, Who is the real enemy?"

I'll stick with the pornographers myself.

[MarkBastable]

......Jesus, you did research. Actual research. I mean, come on, stlukes - this is an Internet forum. You're not allowed to do research. What do you think would happen if everyone did research? It's just so selfish and inconsiderate of you. Are you trying to undermine the entire future of dialogue on the Web?

I am so shocked and upset, I'm tempted to use a face-palm emoticon. Yes, really. Me. That's how disturbing this whole research thing is.

[ftil]

Originally posted by stlukesguild

How much research have you done into your esteemed Dr. E. Michael Jones?


Well, I have done some research and I don’t agree with him on many issues. However, I have found his interview interesting and I would like to read his Libido Dominandi to make up my mind. In his interview, he didn’t go as far as prof. Ioan Couliano, for example. He didn’t mentioned Giordano Bruno and he was a key player with his De vinculis in genere. Bruno was very perceptive and insightful into the nature of human beings, but unfortunately, it has been used as a mass manipulation and control. Dr. E. Michael Jones explained mass manipulation well. So, if you reject Dr. E. Michael Jones ‘s Libido Dominandi, you have to reject prof. Dahrendorf, prof. Eliade and his disciple prof. Couliano, who are just the latest scholars who considered De vinculis in genere as a masterpiece of political manipulation.

Please don’t forget that the first to recognize the importance of Bruno’s text were the Rosicrucians, as indicated in the texts of P. Arnold and F. A. Yates on the movement’s history.....You would have to reject more people then.


Anyway, I don’t reject Dr. E. Michael Jones’s work because I don’t agree with him on many issues. BTW, have you read Libido Dominadi to make such a strong criticism or you have just made your opinion based on what others said? Have you read Bruno’s De vinculis in genere to understand mass manipulation and control?




I'll stick with the pornographers myself.

You may stay with pornography and I will continue to expose it. Luckily, more and more psychologists address pornography with its impact on relationships and sexual dysfunction.

I am the last person wanting to see young men with erectile dysfunction. :cryin:

I will speak up against violence and exploitation of women too. We are not on the same side. I stand for emotional, mental and physical well being of people.

[Scheherazade]

~ R e m i n d e r ~

The OP:

Someone was saying in a different forum that they thought the internet has changed the way we have sex today.
I totally agree. It has changed it in a sense that it made it accessible for everyone to watch at any time and any minute of day and night and without having to enter into it.
Webcams is another change into sexual habits were internet users become sex actees in couples or singles where by watching and doing goes on.
Sex clubs and there many of them in London where people can go and entertain sex whilst others watch.

So I would like to say that voyeurism seems to be the norms today because of the internet and other facilities.
I personally think that sex is solely and purely a physical act done between two consenting adults.
I would however feel extremely uncomfortable if I knew someone was watching because it spooks me out.
The other reason is that I could not tell/work what the voyeurs are thinking in their heads whilst seeing.

The question is:
How do you feel about voyeurism?

Thank you for taking part.

[MarkBastable]

I will speak up against violence and exploitation of women too. We are not on the same side. I stand for emotional, mental and physical well being of people.

This is what we in the arguing trade call a 'motherhood' proposition.

I'm in favour of motherhood, and as you disagree with me, you must be against motherhood.

[blazeofglory]

Well, I have done some research and I don’t agree with him on many issues.

I will speak up against violence and exploitation of women too. We are not on the same side. I stand for emotional, mental and physical well being of people.

I second this thought. In fact it is the emotion that proves at the end of the day when it comes to relationship, not any pornographic displays. Nothing proves sounder than passion or compassion when people are together

[ftil]

Blazeofglory,

I don’t have any clue with what thought you agree. In my previous post you quoted, I have addressed very important issues such as mass manipulation and control and Dr. E. Michael Jones explained it very well. When I said that I didn’t agree with him on many issues I didn’t mean his interview where he discussed his Libido Dominandi. On the contrary, he has a very good understanding of mass manipulation and control.

[blazeofglory]

Blazeofglory,

I don’t have any clue with what thought you agree. In my previous post you quoted, I have addressed very important issues such as mass manipulation and control and Dr. E. Michael Jones explained it very well. When I said that I didn’t agree with him on many issues I didn’t mean his interview where he discussed his Libido Dominandi. On the contrary, he has a very good understanding of mass manipulation and control.

This is simply about the emotional issue and nothing else. That part you addressed fascinated me