The Visual Arts: Exploring the History of "Fine Art" and Beyond [Archive] - Page 2

stlukesguild

12-30-2012, 03:29 PM

If your idea of art for art's sake is the rejection of morality in looking at an art and the irrelevance of its artist's justification, I'm all for it. But if your idea includes the rejection of the viewer's input that uses context, biographical reading, narrative, cultural symbols, archetypes, your art for art's sake is just a longer name for formalism. A gay artist painting penises is definitely calling for a biographical reading of his work.

The common academic approach to art criticism involves 4 distinct elements: 1. Description (What do we actually see?) 2. Analysis (How is the work formally organized?) 3. Interpretation (An attempt to define a meaning or expression utilizing historical knowledge, the biography of the artist, imposing an external theory or dogma, or even simply using our own personal experiences and imagination.)

Formalism, in part, developed in response to the obvious collapse of an imagined universal shared culture (or at least one that was shared among Western Culture). It centers almost wholly upon the first two and last elements of art criticism: what do we actually see and how is it organized? One then makes a judgment based upon this. In theory, a formalist critique of a work of art avoids any cultural, theoretical, or dogmatic bias. One can look at a Cubist painting, a Renaissance altarpiece, or an African work of ritual sculpture without any knowledge of either... analyze how well the work is organized... and offer up a value judgment.

The concept of Art for Art's Sake/art pour l'art... or aestheticism was less extreme than Formalism. The writers of the art pour l'art movement (Wilde, Pater, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Verlaine, Gautier, etc...) never suggested that art criticism should not include a grasp of the historical context in which an artist worked, the artist's biography, personal experience an imagination. What this theory did espouse was that external non-art elements should not impact our judgment of the work of art.

The Catholic Church was long one of the biggest patrons... and powerful critics of art in the West. A work of art that conveyed ideas sympathetic to the Protestants... let alone Islam or the Jewish faith... was not merely deemed heretical but also "bad art".

There is no difference between this sort of bias that would appear unacceptable to most of us, and the sort of bias we get with Feminist or Marxist or other dogmas. One can impose any interpretive filter one wishes upon art... but in a good many instances these amount to nothing more than using the art to reinforce a given bias or dogma that has nothing to do with the art itself:

As I suggested earlier, one might employ Marxist Theory to interpret and judge this work of art:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_202_van_dyck_charles_I-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=202_van_dyck_charles_I-1.jpg)

One may come to the conclusion that the art glorifies the privilege of Aristocracy and class and thus deem the work "poor art". However, Marxism is irrelevant to questions of artistic merit, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the historical context that the artist worked in or his intentions. It ultimately involves a judgment based upon the values of another time and place. This sounds quite similar to the fear expressed that a Western viewer looking at an Indian Buddha sculpture or Australian Aboriginal painting will not be able to offer a fair judgment because they will be imposing their own foreign values and standards upon a work of art created by a culture that may not share these values or standards.

I know where you're coming from, but if you insist that only the views of the people who are university-trained should be acknowledged when it comes to looking at an art, art appreciation will remain the activity of the elite. Postcolonialism aims to prevent that elitism to take root or remain stronger.

God... I thought PC theory had died out some 10 years ago. There still must be those enclaves among academia. Unfortunately, art will never fail to be an activity of the "elite". In the past this "elite" was largely limited to those of a given class. The ability to appreciate Dante or Shakespeare or Mozart or Duke Ellington or Michelangelo or Jackson Pollock no longer demand one be born to a certain class... but they do demand a given body of knowledge and and effort.

I just don't think you can place an aboriginal art from Australia beside Klimt's masterpiece and say Klimt's is better.

What not? I can judge Klimt in comparison to Michelangelo or Matisse... I can also look at his work in comparison to Hokusai.

In high school, we had art history class but only of Western arts and artists. We were trained to be pretentious. It seemed we were taught so if someone would ask about Baroque or Rococo we could answer. The local artists I knew had been painting since I was a child, but their works were not studied. I realized then that that was the case because their works would not fit within or could not be placed beside the Western arts. I "uneducated" myself by appreciating all kinds of arts, "high" or "low," Western or Eastern, local or international without judging which is better or more beautiful.

I'm glad for you. You've come to the point where you cannot recognize any qualitative difference in art. There is no good nor bad. This will probably work quite well for you in your own artistic efforts. You will be able to shrug off any and all criticism and never have the need to improve... because improvement suggest a measure of quality which doesn't exist.

If an art is not Marxist, it does not mean it is a bad art; it only means it is not interesting to a Marxist--like Michaelangelo's work not interesting to that Chinese person.

And yet my Chinese studio-mate loves Michelangelo and my Korean studio-mate wants nothing more than to see the Sistine next year, while I love Hokusia and Utamaro and Persian and Arabic illuminate manuscripts, Indian sculpture, and Byzantine mosaics. There is no reason that a Chinese art-lover cannot appreciate Michelangelo any more than there is a reason that an art-lover living in the 21st century cannot appreciate medieval art.

I'm really for the use of all lenses in looking at and appreciating arts because I always go for variety over sameness and homogeneity. With that in mind, I'm able to appreciate an artist who crumples a paper and calls it an art or hangs his shorts in an exhibit, and i don't see his artworks as a crumpled paper and his shorts only because I go beyond formalism and the strict interpretation of art for art's sake.

Unfortunately most people... and the society as a whole don't have time to waste looking, listening, and reading everything. The vast majority of all art will be forgotten... primarily because it wasn't that good. You can cry all you wish that this isn't fair, but perhaps you should learn that life isn't fair... not all people are equal... not all artists are equal.

St' Lukes should really do something. You are ruining his thread that's very interesting. Your comments are inconsistent, uninteresting, and absurd.

"In so doing, perhaps I can show why, rightly, Cezanne is a great and important artist, and Coombs is not."

Still you don't get it. Oranges belong in a fruit bowl not in a pastry basket. Comparing Cezanne and Coombs? Really?

One must appreciate the irony involved in Ms. Miyako's comments. She has no problem making insulting comments concerning the abilities of others and then turns about and argues that there is no good nor bad and that the very notion of offering up judgment is wrong.

I think someone said thumbnails are preferred here, when reproducing images. I'm not sure how to do that.

As long as the image does not contain any nudity, you can upload it to Photobucket, select the image, click "choose action", click on "clickable thumbnails" and paste to LitNet.

If the image contains nudity, Photobucket is likely to delete it, so I employ Flickr, but the process is a bit more complex. Again you upload the image to Flickr, click and open the image in your "photostream", select "share", select "thumbnail" or small, the copy the code. THe entire code will look like this:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/50218916@N07/8320179682/" title="Shepard_Fairey_Hope_2008 by Stlukesguild1, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8355/8320179682_b6aba0045b_m.jpg" width="159" height="240" alt="Shepard_Fairey_Hope_2008"></a>

Copy the portion beginning with the second (or final) "http://" through the .jpg

As here:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8355/8320179682_b6aba0045b_m.jpg

Take this and post it in the "Insert Image" feature. Be sure to upload using From URL and shut off the "Retrieve remote file..."

Click OK

This will post like this:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8355/8320179682_b6aba0045b_m.jpg

(Or simply post the and around the code.)

Then go back to Flickr, open the largest configuration of the image, and again copy that code:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/50218916@N07/8320179682/" title="Shepard_Fairey_Hope_2008 by Stlukesguild1, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8355/8320179682_b6aba0045b_z.jpg" width="350" height="529" alt="Shepard_Fairey_Hope_2008"></a>

Cut the same portion of the code:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8355/8320179682_b6aba0045b_z.jpg

Go back to LitNet. Highlight the first code in your post then select "Link"

Enter the second code (for the larger image) and click OK

When you post the thread you'll get a thumbnail linked to a larger image.

You can check before posting by using the "Preview Post"

ftil

12-30-2012, 04:19 PM

You must have missed my post on a previous page where I asked you what awards you have received.
I remember when you expressed your disappointments that nobody here was interested in your art.
I am interested to see them.
Why don’t you take the opportunity to present your awarded paintings? :smile5:

miyako73

12-30-2012, 04:22 PM

I'm curious to see St. Luke's body of work. It must be intelligent because of his grasp of art theory and history. Where can I see it, St. Luke? Can you post it here? I won't judge it the way you do. I don't think there's a bad or ugly art, but there are that do not excite or interest me.

Cioran

12-30-2012, 04:28 PM

Thanks on the thumbnail info, stlukesguild. I'll try this out a little later when I have some time; right now I'm at work.

A few more words about Robert Coombs, for the time being: After having looked at a number of his paintings, I would say that he is a very talented painter but also a very savvy businessman. He knows exactly what he is doing, because he knows how visually uneducated the public is.

In the backgrounds of his paintings, he is a painter: free, easy, symphonic, creative. In the foregrounds (the figures) he is a businessman. There, in the figurative work, is where he gives the public what it expects: cheap, dime-store sentimentality.

I can't help but believe that he is aware of his visual schizophrenia. My bet is that in the privacy of his studio, he makes full canvases of his backgrounds, and when he does that he feels his freest and most painterly.

miyako73

12-30-2012, 04:33 PM

Wow, Cioran. Impressive. That's a good read. You tackle motive and intent and visual schizophrenia. Impressive analysis, indeed.

ftil

12-30-2012, 05:10 PM

I'm curious to see St. Luke's body of work. It must be intelligent because of his grasp of art theory and history. Where can I see it, St. Luke? Can you post them here? I won't judge them the way you do. I don't think there's a bad or ugly art, but there are that do not excite or interest me.

I am glad that you agree with me in encouraging St. Luke to post his art. It will be a good opportunity to learn about prestigious awards in US.

Zagreus

12-30-2012, 06:51 PM

Well, I am not going to fight with anyone anymore, and I am just going to put fitil and Miyako on ignore. The latter asked me what I thought about a certain painting by Coombs, and I attempted a thoughtful response. In return, I received abuse. I will no longer tolerate this person's invective.

Of course we can agree that people might have different opinions on art. Let me reiterate a point I made earlier: in this thread, neither stlukesguild nor I are trying to define art for anyone, or say what anyone should or should not like. Alas, it is just the opposite. Ftil has set herself up as the arbiter of what is, and is not, "beauty." While I, for instance, can tell you what's good about Coombs' work, she cannot say anything good about art she doesn't like; can say nothing about all that is good (and great) in the modernist canon, or even concede that this canon has any value. This is, as I have said, breathtakingly arrogant and earth-shakingly wrong headed.

Moreover, as stlukesguild has stated, even if one is to embrace a relativism so extreme that what's good in the visual arts is solely a matter of opinion, then it remains the case that some opinions are better than others

ftil keep touting this "Almost Sunset" painting and never fails to mention that it won a prize. What she consistently and disingenuously fails to mention is that the prize was awarded by an organization that excludes from winning its prize any art that differs in the slightest from the art that Coombs makes. The prize is worthless.

Art exists in a social context, as I've said. But even so, it's not enough to say, "Let's understand this art through the prism of Marxism, Feminism, and Post-colonialism." You can do that if you wish, but if you do, you are no longer talking about art qua art. For no matter how socially enmeshed any particular work is, at the end of the day all art shares in common the practice of seeing, and converting what is seen into marks on a surface. That is the formalism behind art, and if you lose sight of this fact, as it were, then you lose sight of seeing, of art at its most essential as it has been practiced back to the days of cave paintings.

In a later post I'll state what I think is good and not so good about "Almost Sunset" and compare it to a particular work of Cezanne I have in mind. In so doing, perhaps I can show why, rightly, Cezanne is a great and important artist, and Coombs is not.

I'm actually glad you started discussing, I mean, I learned a lot about the concept of art, but it seems to me that it has come to a point where any further arguing won't add anything to the subject. You made clear where you stand in this, everyone did. Now it's for the audience to decide what ideas are to embrace.

You said you'll hold "Almost Sunset" against a Cézanne: please do. I'm interested, tell us how you see :)

stlukesguild

12-30-2012, 07:40 PM

Due to my career (teacher) and the current conservative and anti-teacher climate in America in which teachers have bee fired for posting a picture of themselves drinking a Guinness while vacationing in Ireland or wearing a bikini while vacationing in Florida, I rarely post any of my newer works on line due to the fact that they employ the nude.

Up until about 5 years ago I was working mostly in collage related to books and reading. A few examples:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_26f-LamentationsTenseandOnEdgesmall2.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=26f-LamentationsTenseandOnEdgesmall2.jpg)
-Lamentations: Tense and on Edge

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_44b-TheThreeKingdomssm.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=44b-TheThreeKingdomssm.jpg)
-The Three Kingdoms

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_51-TheNightengaleisApproachingsm.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=51-TheNightengaleisApproachingsm.jpg)
-The Nightingale Approaching

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_102BachSuite7GhostSonata.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=102BachSuite7GhostSonata.jpg)
-Ghost Sonata

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_106-WinterMeditationsuponaThemebyJSBachThomasMoresm.jp g (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=106-WinterMeditationsuponaThemebyJSBachThomasMoresm.jp g)
-Winter Meditations on a Theme by Thomas More

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_117-BachSuiteApoetUnhinged.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=117-BachSuiteApoetUnhinged.jpg)
-A Poet Unhinged

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_125-JSBachSuiteThePoetryofPerfumedLetters.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=125-JSBachSuiteThePoetryofPerfumedLetters.jpg)
-The Poetry of Perfumed Letters

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_135-JSBachSuite-bellelettres.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=135-JSBachSuite-bellelettres.jpg)
-Belle lettres

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_150-BachSuite-TherewasaCrookedMansm.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=150-BachSuite-TherewasaCrookedMansm.jpg)
-There Was a Crooked Man

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_162-AncientGardens.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=162-AncientGardens.jpg)
-Ancient Gardens

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_167-TerzaRimaI.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=167-TerzaRimaI.jpg)
-Terza Rima

I'll post two of my newer figurative paintings that I have posted on line before:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8224/8326911659_7f75963476_m.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8224/8326911659_7f75963476_b.jpg)
-Tyger, Tyger

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8082/8326926565_84e2e84835_m.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8082/8326926565_84e2e84835_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8327971690_82b944e02c_m.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8327971690_82b944e02c_b.jpg)
-Noli me tangere

The second image is to give some concept of scale. My figurative paintings are 80"x44" and are constructed of mixed media (pastel, acrylic, pencil, and gold-leaf on paper). My major influences include Japanese Ukiyo-e prints and screen painting, Indian sculpture, Persian, Arabic, and Medieval European illuminated manuscript paintings, Byzantine mosaics, early Italian Renaissance painting, Ingres, Klimt, Bonnard, Matisse, Beckmann, Francis Bacon, and recently... popular culture, posters, etc...

As for my awards, I have a couple "Best of Show" one "Best Painting" another "Best 3-D Work" for a ceramic piece, and a couple others. They are all pretty much as meaningless as most any award outside of being a little pat on the back. Nearly every group exhibition that involves some form of competition (as opposed to a commercial gallery) includes some sort of awards. I have acted as a juror on a couple of occasions for a University Art Exhibition and I have been a curator and director of an art gallery of my own for several years. I know just how much subjectivity and even politics are involved in awards. I had one award stripped by a juror who felt that because I hadn't signed the front of the painting, I must have been ashamed of it. I simply never sign the front of my works. Neither do many other artists. I entered a major museum competition and was rejected because the curators were more interested in smaller works. A number of my friends were rejected because the curators were interested in focusing on younger artists. Such stipulations are fine... but often exhibition organizers will not tell you that realism or abstraction or older artists or whatever really have no chance of being shown... because they want to collect your money... your entry fee... regardless. Honestly, the best award is to have someone who likes your work enough to actually buy it... but even this is no measure of merit. Obviously there are more people likely to purchase something like this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_3flores1982pastelsobrep.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=3flores1982pastelsobrep.jpg)

than something like this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Clue3-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Clue3-1.jpg)

(Both, by the way, are by quite talented and well-respected artists.

miyako73

12-30-2012, 07:55 PM

I like Noli Me Tangere. I like how the woman holds the man's hands as if she prevents him to grope her, and how the man's hands look indifferent as if he's not interested to touch her. Indeed, "touch me not." Are you Asian, St. Lukes? Formalists will love this particular painting. It has the colors, mosaic, sharpness of figurative lines, use of gold found in Eastern Christian iconography. It can be Adam and Eve or two haloed virgins-- again, "touch me not."

Cioran

12-30-2012, 07:57 PM

Nice work! Love the collages. The figurative work seems quite original. Thanks for sharing thee, stlukesguild.

stlukesguild

12-30-2012, 08:10 PM

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_511099631.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=511099631.jpg)Liu Chenyang

I recently stumbled upon the work of a young and promising Chinese painter, Liu Chenyang. Liu was born in 1984 in the Henan Province, China. She studied in the Third Painting Studio of Oil Painting Department of Guangxi Arts Institute and is currently undertaking postgraduate studies in the Oil Painting department of Guangxi Arts Institute. Her work has been exhibited frequently in China and abroad, and she has begun to earn a solid following and sells at rather impressive prices.

Liu's work is clearly rooted in Western Modernism. Her employment of flat areas of bright color recalls Gauguin, while her bold gestural outlines suggest Edvard Munch, Egon Schiele... as well as the Chinese tradition of calligraphy.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_2632319233_f3df0e2ea4_o.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=2632319233_f3df0e2ea4_o.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_2633210838_785aa5c78d_o.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=2633210838_785aa5c78d_o.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_2727713224_615cfc8591_o.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=2727713224_615cfc8591_o.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5573868577_c9bce95ee5_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5573868577_c9bce95ee5_b.jpg)

She has an aversion to the imagery rooted in popular culture and the use of neon, DayGlow, and florescent colors popular with the current crop of Chinese Neo-Pop/Pop Surrealists. Her subject matter is rooted in personal and intimate experience and memory with a special focus on the experience of women/girls in their intimate moments.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_3628630999_c9e4844341_o.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=3628630999_c9e4844341_o.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_4537164367_814af155b4_o.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=4537164367_814af155b4_o.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5004571500_3e3f22fa63_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5004571500_3e3f22fa63_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5078001602_e8f5bc28d5_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5078001602_e8f5bc28d5_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5129936779_679601cd64_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5129936779_679601cd64_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5163869208_3dfa3a1d53_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5163869208_3dfa3a1d53_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5314656042_5764d3a5cc_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5314656042_5764d3a5cc_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5315241606_29ecd265a7_b1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5315241606_29ecd265a7_b1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5741569137_eee176e69f_z.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5741569137_eee176e69f_z.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5757531551_778c1bea45_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5757531551_778c1bea45_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5793823080_1588bde53e_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5793823080_1588bde53e_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_6004347715_2e1f09098c_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=6004347715_2e1f09098c_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_6085227544_ce27c8be0b_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=6085227544_ce27c8be0b_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_6424446687_fb2095f5fc_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=6424446687_fb2095f5fc_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5330140770_ee18ed00f8_o.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5330140770_ee18ed00f8_o.jpg)

I find her portraits and self-portraits particularly effective. She can be quite bold in these works in her handling of paint without the need for too much consideration for complex composition. She can also employ some rather audacious and surprising color combinations. Liu is also quite good at capturing a definite facial expression, personality, and mood with rather limited means.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9041341-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9041341-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9041383-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9041383-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9041461-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9041461-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9041759-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9041759-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9043190-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9043190-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9043199-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9043199-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9043235-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9043235-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9645283-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9645283-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9645370-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9645370-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9653150-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9653150-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_147453-9889136-7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=147453-9889136-7.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_7597737658_08a4dd2b1c_b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=7597737658_08a4dd2b1c_b.jpg)

Her more recent work has grown in scale and often employs multiple figures... and animals. The best of these maintain her ability to convey a mood, atmosphere, gesture, and even personality with simple means or a limit degree of "realistic" detail.

Liu Chenyang is certainly an artist to watch.

ftil

12-30-2012, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by stlukesguild

As for my awards, I have a couple "Best of Show" one "Best Painting" another "Best 3-D Work" for a ceramic piece, and a couple others. They are all pretty much as meaningless as most any award outside of being a little pat on the back. Nearly every group exhibition that involves some form of competition (as opposed to a commercial gallery) includes some sort of awards. I have acted as a juror on a couple of occasions for a University Art Exhibition and I have been a curator and director of an art gallery of my own for several years. I know just how much subjectivity and even politics are involved in awards. I had one award stripped by a juror who felt that because I hadn't signed the front of the painting, I must have been ashamed of it. I simply never sign the front of my works. Neither do many other artists. I entered a major museum competition and was rejected because the curators were more interested in smaller works. A number of my friends were rejected because the curators were interested in focusing on younger artists. Such stipulations are fine... but often exhibition organizers will not tell you that realism or abstraction or older artists or whatever really have no chance of being shown... because they want to collect your money... your entry fee... regardless. Honestly, the best award is to have someone who likes your work enough to actually buy it... but even this is no measure of merit. Obviously there are more people likely to purchase something like this:

Well, I do understand that there may be politics involved in awards. I don’t think that subjectivity plays a big role. After all, if an artist get the award for excellence there is no that much subjectivity but there are criteria according to which paintings are evaluated. The same is when you get academic award for excellence, you don’t get because of politics but because of evident academic achievement. :lol:

To be honest, I don’t understand your harsh criticism of D. Gerhartz. I wish I have a chance to hear his opinion of your paintings…....it would be fair. He not only have an impressive list of awards but also number of paintings .

Thank you for showing your art…..I prefer Gerhartz’s and Coombs’ art that is full of feelings. ;)

miyako73

12-30-2012, 09:22 PM

ftil

12-30-2012, 10:27 PM

miyako73

12-30-2012, 10:29 PM

backread i put the name of the photographer. it's a photographic image. David Nebreda

miyako73

12-30-2012, 10:33 PM

I don't know what you meant by craftsman. Sotheby's and Christie's certainly consider Amorsolo an artist, and so are the intelligent collectors.

ftil

12-30-2012, 10:48 PM

I don't know what you meant by craftsman. Sotheby's and Christie's certainly consider Amorsolo an artist, and so are the intelligent collectors.

Perhaps, it is not the best translation but what I mean that there are people who have little talent and their work is not that of having talent but a hard work.

miyako73

12-30-2012, 11:10 PM

Since you are into award/medal/prize, here's another one by a Filipino artist named Juan Luna, who won gold medal at Exposición Nacional de Bellas Artes in 1884 in Madrid (Picasso won honorable mention in 1897). He even lived in France and Spain for awhile, yet he was still ignored by art scholars. My point here is that there are non-western artists whose body of works are not included in Art History because well they are not Western-- in short, racism. So, Postcolonial theory, a workable theory for identity politics, is a need to rectify the inhumanity of the past.

8564

ftil

12-30-2012, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by miyako73
backread i put the name of the photographer. it's a photographic image. David Nebreda

Sorry, but I didn't notice where you put his name. Anyway, I didn't know him but I have found the photo you have posted.

Bachelor of Fine Arts. At the young age of 19 was diagnosed with schizophrenia . He lives shut up in a flat in Madrid with just two rooms where he has made all of his photographic work, without medication, without outside communication, no radio, newspapers, books or television. Vegetarian for 20 years, practice sexual abstinence, and subjected to severe fasts that you maintain a state of extreme thinness.

Their images came to blows the gallery Renos Xippas who dedicated an exhibition in his gallery of Paris , was where Léo Scheer discovered his work, impressed by his editor decided to become a force to disclose his work. He has published two photo books. Self-taught in photography, surprising for its wise use of the technique, mastery of light and chiaroscuro of his photographs, not manipulate the positivado even if you use the double exposure.

His work is almost unknown in Spain, in France has been promoted by people from the aforementioned category Léo Sheer , critical philosopher and one of the promoters of Canal + France, and has even been the subject of an article by Jean Baudrillard.

The only reference close to his work may be the artist Joel-Peter Witkin , although this looks to people outside their models or cadavers, not Nebreda, which bases all his work in his own person.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nebreda

And his work. He takes pictures of himself, after flagellation and self-harm.

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f10/david-nebreda-35499/

BTW, why did you put ftil quote behind the image you posted? :reddevil:

tumblr_lze1hzSVHW1r98944o1_500.jpg[QUOTE=ftil;1195323]

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?72093-The-Visual-Arts-Exploring-the-History-of-quot-Fine-Art-quot-and-Beyond/page13

miyako73

12-30-2012, 11:18 PM

what do you mean? I googled, saved the pic, and posted. I did not change anything. I did not quote your name. Go backread. Damn I want what you're having. You're seeing things.

ftil

12-30-2012, 11:26 PM

what do you mean? I googled, saved the pic, and posted. I did not change anything. I did not quote your name. Go backread. Damn I want what you're having. You're seeing things.

I have posted a link to your post. post # 186.

Enjoy LitNet........I don't have time for that. :lol:

miyako73

12-30-2012, 11:28 PM

LOL. I quoted your previous post which I accidentally moved or something and I inserted the image inside the quote.

-----------------------------------

This is not what I meant but it is a big subject and off topic.[/QUOTE]

It's not off topic. I'm responding to your myopic view about beauty. As I said, the most beautiful image to me is the image below because of its beautiful/meaningful narrative. As you have your own way of viewing things, I respect that. Do not impose your view. Do you want everyone to have the same view? That must be a one big boring world you have in mind.

tumblr_lze1hzSVHW1r98944o1_500.jpg[QUOTE=ftil;1195323]

-------------------------------

Got it now? No Occultism involved. Trust me.

stlukesguild

12-30-2012, 11:38 PM

Way before Gerhartz and Coombs were born, a famous painter in my country had already painted images like these, yet nobody really talks about him outside the country. Now that postcolonialism is currently loud a theory in humanities, scholars back home go back to his works for studies in aesthetics and identity. I can only hope foreign art scholars will begin to realize that developing countries too have impressive artworks, brilliant artists, and art histories.

The problem that many non-Western nations suffered from was not so much that Western artists/critics/art historians/art lovers etc... imposed their set standards upon the art of a culture that with different values and standards, but rather it has been that in a great many cases these non-Western cultures have developed a certain self-loathing... a rejection of the strengths of their own artistic achievements and a desire to mimic the style of Western art.

The critic, Robert Hughes, spoke of this as the "cultural cringe", in response to Australia's feelings of artistic inferiority to Europe and the United States. For a long time the US had this same cultural cringe with regard to European culture. Perhaps the difference was the manner in which the US developed its own cultural mythology.

I know little or nothing of the art of the Philippines, but I can use, by way of example, the art of Japan. The Japanese had a very ancient and rich art history. They produced some of the oldest-known ceramic sculpture. The Jomon and Haniwa works are especially fine:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_fukabachi.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=fukabachi.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_C0010484.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=C0010484.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_C0010502.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=C0010502.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Periodo_kofun_haniwa_cavallo_VI_sec_02.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Periodo_kofun_haniwa_cavallo_VI_sec_02.jpg )

While Japanese art owes much to the Chinese... they also broke free from the Chinese hold and developed their own unique artistic voice. Chinese ceramics, for example, tend to be highly polished and elegant:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_china_yingyangdish_l.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=china_yingyangdish_l.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_ming-vase.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=ming-vase.jpg)

There are elements that suggest Persian and Middle-eastern influence... and vis-versa. The Japanese, on the other hand, lacked access to the fine porcelain clay and so they were were forced to use the rougher stone-wear clays. Out of necessity... and in conjunction with their love of nature (and undoubtedly the nature-based native Shinto religion) Japanese ceramics evolved in a manner almost shockingly "modernist" with an embrace of apparent accidents, "crude" asymmetry etc...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_raku-1.gif (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=raku-1.gif)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_rakuwareteabowls.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=rakuwareteabowls.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_92-Raku-PICT4152.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=92-Raku-PICT4152.jpg)

The history of Japanese painting is equally rich. There are the most elegant calligraphic and almost minimal of paintings:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_4SagesofMtShang1-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=4SagesofMtShang1-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_4SagesofMtShang2-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=4SagesofMtShang2-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_h2_irmd_1-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=h2_irmd_1-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Hokusai_tanuki_tea_kettle.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Hokusai_tanuki_tea_kettle.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_KanoHogai2.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=KanoHogai2.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Yosai-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Yosai-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_HonamiKoetsuandTawarayaSotatsu.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=HonamiKoetsuandTawarayaSotatsu.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_2cherryblossoms_483x546-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=2cherryblossoms_483x546-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_3831085206_b637cc5b33_o.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=3831085206_b637cc5b33_o.jpg)

And there are works that are stunningly decorative and employ compositional ideas that were shockingly original to Western artists:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_3-2.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=3-2.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_10.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=10.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_11-3.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=11-3.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_16-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=16-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_17-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=17-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_28.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=28.jpg)

And then there's the entire tradition of Graphic Arts... print-making in Japan. The Ukiyo-e print-makers were essentially illustrators. They were seen as the "low brow" artists by court painters known for producing the equivalents of our postcards for tourists, posters of celebrities, illustrations for pulp novels and even pornography... and comic books. Yet these artists became among the most know and influential:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_401_women_02.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=401_women_02.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_utamaro_b_large.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=utamaro_b_large.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Utamaro-Okita-1790-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Utamaro-Okita-1790-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_yukyhoeos9.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=yukyhoeos9.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_hokusai.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=hokusai.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_2228-099_hokusai.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=2228-099_hokusai.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_100_views_edo_107-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=100_views_edo_107-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_harunobu001-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=harunobu001-1.jpg)

These artists had a profound influence upon Western artists ranging from Whistler to Degas, Mary Cassatt, Van Gogh, Matisse, etc... The Western artists, however, took the elements they admired... yet the work remained clearly of the Western tradition.

By the late 19th century, however, Japanese art began to absorb many influence of Western art... and often this was not for the better:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_300px-Kuroda_Maiko.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=300px-Kuroda_Maiko.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_20110201-Pacific-Asia-Museum-Rakusai-Meiji-Woman-Fan.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=20110201-Pacific-Asia-Museum-Rakusai-Meiji-Woman-Fan.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_fa20120126a2a.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=fa20120126a2a.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_hara.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=hara.jpg)

As the artists strove to paint like Western artists, they largely lost any sense of personal voice rooted in their native traditions. It was only after WWII that Japanese Art developed its own Modern and yet uniquely native voice:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Dog98.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Dog98.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_1991.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=1991.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_M91_21_2-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=M91_21_2-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_uka.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=uka.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_tumblr_lmbpdxqZGf1qzu6nxo1_1280.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=tumblr_lmbpdxqZGf1qzu6nxo1_1280.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_hp-s04.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=hp-s04.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_hp-s02.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=hp-s02.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_36762.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=36762.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_EssenceofWaterII-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=EssenceofWaterII-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_cold-front.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=cold-front.jpg)

ftil

12-30-2012, 11:40 PM

Have you noticed that when you quote somebody the name is on the top of the post not in the middle of the post?
If you use quote bottom there are no numbers behind the name.

Anyway, you are on ignore from now. :lol:....... I don’t want this thread to be closed.

miyako73

12-30-2012, 11:52 PM

Let me explain to you ftil. So petty.

Originally my post looked like this:

tumblr_lze1hzSVHW1r98944o1_500.jpg
This is not what I meant but it is a big subject and off topic.

It's not off topic. I'm responding to your myopic view about beauty. As I said, the most beautiful image to me is the image below because of its beautiful/meaningful narrative. As you have your own way of viewing things, I respect that. Do not impose your view. Do you want everyone to have the same view? That must be a one big boring world you have in mind.

I wanted the image to be after my post. When I moved the image, I accidentally dragged "([QUOTE=ftil;1195323])"; Thus:

It's not off topic. I'm responding to your myopic view about beauty. As I said, the most beautiful image to me is the image below because of its beautiful/meaningful narrative. As you have your own way of viewing things, I respect that. Do not impose your view. Do you want everyone to have the same view? That must be a one big boring world you have in mind.

tumblr_lze1hzSVHW1r98944o1_500.jpg[QUOTE=ftil;1195323])

Got it now?

stlukesguild

12-31-2012, 12:07 AM

My point here is that there are non-western artists whose body of works are not included in Art History because well they are not Western-- in short, racism.

Undoubtedly racism exists... and was part of what led past generations to ignore the achievements of artists of other cultures... but to suggest that because an artist who was Black or Female or Gay or non-Western was ignored and is still ignored because of sexism or racism or any other such bias is making something of a leap. For every Black or Female or non-Western artist whose work has been ignored, there are just as many... if not far more... Western Male artists who have largely disappeared or been ignored.

Who decides which artists make it into the so-called "canon" of art history? This is a process that continues to evolve over the course of time and is the result of the opinions of those who have invested most into art: art dealers, art collectors, art historians, academics and professionals of all walks, and then obviously the well-informed art audience and the subsequent artists. For better of worse art often follows money and power because it is here that the artist will find patronage, support, and promotion of his or her work. We are constantly "discovering" ignored masters. 150 years ago Vermeer was largely ignored, today he is a towering figure of art history. Vilhelm Hammerschoi and Anders Zorn... both masterful painters... were only recently "rediscovered". Japanese Art has benefited from Japan's history... their trade with the West, their military and economic power have resulted in their art being the subject of study and exploration by the West. Chinese art becomes increasingly important as China becomes a military/economic power to be reckoned with.

The reality is that every culture pushes their own culture/history/artistic vision. You cannot blame the United States of Europe for not taking Filipino or Ecuadorian or Sudanese art seriously. The French promote their tradition... and those traditions they deem relevant to their development. The same is true of the English, the Italians, the Germans, the Americans, and the Filipinos.

JCamilo

12-31-2012, 12:13 AM

Not really. If you recite in the proper order facing west at the exactly time, you can quote in the midle. :.

Anyway, you are on ignore from now. :lol:....... I don’t want this thread to be closed.

The owls are not what they seem

Have you noticed that when you quote somebody the name is on the top of the post not in the middle of the post?
If you use quote bottom there are no numbers behind the name.

stlukesguild

12-31-2012, 12:27 AM

Thank you for showing your art…..I prefer Gerhartz’s and Coombs’ art that is full of feelings.

There is no art that is full of feelings. A work of art is an inanimate object. The feelings are in the viewer. A work of art may inspire feelings in the viewers, but ultimately you bring these to the work. I have a response to Coombs and Gerhartz as well. I find the work overly sentimental, unrealistic, and cliche. The paintings are technically very well executed, but they strike me as pastiches of works by artists that I find far more original and far better. Artists in the same painterly tradition, including Boldini, Charles Chaplin, Anders Zorn, Watterhouse, Ingres, Girodet, Fragonard, Gainsborough, Anton Raphael Mengs, Winslow Homer, John Singer Sargent, Sorolla, Berthe Morisot, Edgar Degas, Frank Duveneck, Manet, William Merritt Chase, etc... to say nothing of Rubens, Rembrandt, Titian, Velazquez and Raphael were all far more original, far more innovative, and far better painters all around. You can't honestly express surprise if an artist you like paints in a manner that is little more than a pastiche of Impressionism or Cubism if others are likely to compare these artists to Monet and Degas or Braque and Picasso and feel that the pastiche comes up lacking. I admitted as much in connection with the artist Catherine Able, whose work I posted earlier... and admitted that it was a pastiche of Art Deco, Cubism, Tamara Lempicka, etc... While I like her work... I don't imagine that it is in any way in the same category as Lempicka... let alone Picasso and Braque.

ftil

12-31-2012, 12:29 AM

Not really. If you recite in the proper order facing west at the exactly time, you can quote in the midle. :.

The owls are not what they seem

Why don't you offer miyako73 your company? :lol:

I remember that a member posted Beksinski art on the forum. I didn't know his paintings and I don't regret.

Zdzisław Beksiński was a renowned Polish painter, photographer, and sculptor. Beksiński was born in the town of Sanok, in southern Poland. After studying architecture in Kraków, Beksiński had no formal training as an artist. His paintings were mainly created using oil paint on hardboard panels which he personally prepared, although he also experimented with acrylic paints. The 1980s marked a transitory period for Beksiński. During this time, his works became more popular in France due to the endeavors of Piotr Dmochowski, and he achieved significant popularity in Western Europe, the United States and Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zdzis%C5%82aw_Beksi%C5%84ski

His paintings.
http://art.vniz.net/en/beksinski/

Beksiński claimed, "I wish to paint in such a manner as if I were photographing dreams".

I reminds me about Henry Fuseli's The Nightmare and S. Freud.

When Max Eastman visited Sigmund Freud's apartment at Berggasse 19,Vienna, Austria, in 1926, he noticed a print of John Henry Fuseli's (1741-1825) The Nightmare hanging on the wall next to Rembrandt vanRijn's The Anatomy Lesson.

Henry Fuseli, The Nightmare

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_Henry_Fuseli_-_The_Nightmare.JPG

Sigmund Freud was also fascinated with demonology.

Sigmund Freud calls the Praestigiis Daemonum one of the ten most significant books of all time.
http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/weyer.htm

De praestigiis daemonum is a book by demonologist Johann Weyer, also known as Wierus, first published in Basel in 1563. The book also contains a famous appendix also circulated independently as the Pseudomonarchia daemonum, a listing of the names and titles of infernal spirits, and the powers alleged to be wielded by each of them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_praestigiis_daemonum

miyako73

12-31-2012, 12:29 AM

@St. Luke

We have traditions in sculptural and textile arts. But the West looks at them as exotic and too ethnic; thus, they are called handicrafts. Our painting history can be traced back in 1800's or even earlier when the Spanish painters came and put up art schools in the Islands. I don't think your "cultural cringe" is applicable as far as the painting history of the Philippines is concerned.

Earliest painting/drawing/illustration works in my country:

8566

8568

8567

8569

8570

ftil

12-31-2012, 12:57 AM

miyako73

12-31-2012, 12:59 AM

Also, one modernist Filipino Painter named Manansala did impressive works in the 50's to 60's he called Transparent Cubism, which was original, yet you can't find his name in art history books:

8571

8572

8573

8574

8575

stlukesguild

12-31-2012, 01:05 AM

We have traditions in sculptural and textile arts. But the West looks at them as exotic and too ethnic...

Actually, that's a bias within the West as well. There are great debates concerning the divide between the so-called "fine arts" and the "applied" or "decorative arts". William Morris and the Arts and Crafts Movement, the Pre-Rapahelites, and the Bauhaus all challenged this notion... but it became re-entrenched under Clement Greenberg and other Modernist critics that used terms such as "narrative", "illustrative" and "decorative" as insults... the idea being that such works of art were less "pure".

One of my favorite living artists, Robert Kushner...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_469894.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=469894.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_artwork_images_138_536404_robert-kushner.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=artwork_images_138_536404_robert-kushner.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_artwork_images_291_469897_robert-kushner.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=artwork_images_291_469897_robert-kushner.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_exhibitimgashx.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=exhibitimgashx.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_exhibitimgashx2.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=exhibitimgashx2.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_kushner-everest.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=kushner-everest.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_ORANGEDAHLIA2000.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=ORANGEDAHLIA2000.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_RK00-01f.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=RK00-01f.jpg)

...was part of the so-called "Pattern Art" movement that embraced pattern and decorative art rooted in tapestries and other decorative art forms including textile arts. Kushner traveled through the Middle-East and Japan and was struck by the absence of such a divide between applied/decorative art and "fine art". There are more than a few Western critics/historians/artists who are exploring art forms and genre once dismissed as minor in comparison with painting, sculpture, and architecture.

stlukesguild

12-31-2012, 01:12 AM

You are entitled to have your opinion about paintings, so I am.

The statement that a painting is an inanimate object and has no feelings is not an opinion, but a fact... unless you have some bizarre interpretation of the terns fact and opinion... or unless you can show how a painting has feeling.

A painting can inspire feelings... but these feelings are in the audience not in the painting. Fact.

The feelings inspired by a work of art vary between people because of the fact that the audience brings their own feelings to bear. Fact.

miyako73

12-31-2012, 01:17 AM

St Lukes is correct. A painting is an inanimate stimulus that can stir emotions. If you see a laughing image of a person in a canvas, it's just an image of a person with an open mouth and a distorted face. Does the painting feel happy? Nope. Is it a painting about happiness? Not necessarily. Does it make you happy? That's the question only you can answer. Even paintings which have figures that giggle make me sad. See, it is its viewer who gives emotion to a painting.

Okay, poker game is over. I lost.

ftil

12-31-2012, 01:31 AM

The statement that a painting is an inanimate object and has no feelings is not an opinion, but a fact...

This is just your opinion not a fact. :lol:

unless you have some bizarre interpretation of the terns fact and opinion... or unless you can show how a painting has feeling.

LOL! Well, if you don’t pick up feelings from the paintings, I am not going to explain it to you. Nobody would. As I said, you have to feel the feelings to understand what I am talking about. If you are interested to learn, I may give you some books to read so that you may understand it and evaluate your level of emotional awareness. Otherwise, I don’t want to waste your and my time. It starts with cognitive knowledge but it is the beginning and until you experience it, you wouldn’t have a clue what I am taking about. ;)

I have forgotten to ask you which of your paintings you presented was awarded.

miyako73

12-31-2012, 01:36 AM

My god, ftil! Do you know the meanings of "inanimate" and "object"? I seldom agree with St. Lukes; I think you don't know what you're talking about.

JCamilo

12-31-2012, 01:44 AM

She actually knows, she said "you have to feel" and "until you experience" and not "the painting feels" or "the painting has experience", but her desire to pull Stlukes leg is too much to admit one single agreement with him. And no cognitive theory will help out, as the majority of cognitive models focus too much on the individual. This is funny :D

miyako73

12-31-2012, 01:52 AM

Thanks, JC. You got that one. I did not continue to read after she said inanimate object having no feelings is not a fact. Inconsistency problem again. Damn! inconsistency.

ftil

12-31-2012, 01:53 AM

My god, ftil! Do you know the meanings of "inanimate" and "object"? I seldom agree with St. Lukes; I think you don't know what you're talking about.

LOL! I was just curious if you were going to do what Cioran did, knowing that he was on my ignore list but for 14 pages responded to my posts.

I guess I can expect another 14 pages..... Forums are..... delightfully entertaining. :lol:

You have made my day.

My gift for you.

Rene Magritte, Le Modele Rouge

http://store.myartmatch.com/enlarge/89442/

Originally posted by JCamilo

She actually knows, she said "you have to feel" and "until you experience" and not "the painting feels" or "the painting has experience", but her desire to pull Stlukes leg is too much to admit one single agreement with him. And no cognitive theory will help out, as the majority of cognitive models focus too much on the individual. This is funny

You didn't understand what I said. I am not going to repeat it.........you already has a company. :lol:

miyako73

12-31-2012, 01:56 AM

LOL! I was just curious if you were going to do what Cioran did, knowing that he was on my ignore list but for 14 pages responded to my posts.

I guess I can expect another 14 pages..... Forums are..... delightfully entertaining. :lol:

You have made my day.

My gift for you.

Rene Magritte, Le Modele Rouge

http://store.myartmatch.com/enlarge/89442/

Didn't you just respond to my post? I thought I was on ignore. C'mon. I know you can't resist.

mortalterror

12-31-2012, 03:26 AM

Stluke, I bet you'd probably like Tadashi Nakayama. He does a mix of modern and traditional Persian styles.

ftil

12-31-2012, 05:06 AM

I didn't know Tadashi Nakayama.

Nakayama begins each print by drawing the design on ordinary paper. After the design is completed, it is painted with watercolors an he may add gold and silver to help him visualize the final work. Next, Nakayama transfers each color of the design onto separate sheets of tracing paper. For example, every section of the print which will be magenta is traced onto a separate sheet of paper, every section which will be cadmium yellow is traced onto another sheet, etc....

When all of the areas of color have been transferred onto sheets of tracing paper, the next step is to transfer the image to the woodblocks, again using one block for each of the different areas of color. Nakayama craves his blocks using chisels, awls, knives and other tools. Upon completion of the carving, he begins the printing of trial proofs. During this process, he determines the order in which the colors and the leaf gold and silver will be printed. Determining the order of colors is influenced by the shadings of color he wishes to create and it also depends to some extent on where the colors are located in the composition. For example, when certain colors are printed over others, a certain grain or striation might occur which Nakayama does not want in his print. Experience has taught him the general order of the application of colors and the optimum time for the printing of 24 carat leaf gold and silver. Nakayama's goal might be to achieve the clearest printing possible or it might be to create a kaleidoscope of brilliance by overlapping colors.

Because Nakayama's prints are very complicated, they are very time-consuming and he is able to complete only one or two prints each year. He is the sole creator of his work and until very recent years, he did all of the work of each print. He drew the basic design, traced the colors onto the blocks, carved the blocks, printed the trial proofs and final edition. At this time, he receives some assistance in the carving of blocks and in printing. However, all stages of carving and printing are done under his supervision. He controls every stage of his creativity.
http://www.hendricksartcollection.com/nakayama.html

http://www.hendricksartcollection.com/nak30.html

http://castlefinearts.com/search_results_detail.php?searchByArtist=&searchArchives=56&pageno=3&pn=&rpp=

http://www.azumagallery.com/exhibitions/estate.show_06.2011/rasic/large/4-Tadashi%20Nakayama%20Blue%20Afternoon%20Running%20 Horses.jpg

http://www.azumagallery.com/exhibitions/estate.show_06.2011/rasic/large/9-Tadashi%20Nakayama%20Butterfly%20Wind.jpg

http://www.azumagallery.com/exhibitions/estate.show_06.2011/rasic/large/2-Tadashi%20Nakayama%20Running%20Horses.jpg

Cioran

12-31-2012, 01:36 PM

What a shame that someone as brilliant and generous with his time as stlukesguild comes here and gives everyone, for free, an art education, and yet the thread is persistently mucked up by a couple of plonkers. Even more a shame that moderation is loose enough here to permit that to happen.

After this post, I'll make thumbnails for the works I post.

Robert Coombs' painting, "Almost Sundown," is, like all his works that I have seen online, nothing more than visual cliche. I'm sure he knows it. As I mentioned, he's a talented painter, which talent most shows up in his loose, free, impressionistic backgrounds, but obviously he is also a businessman who wants to make money off his art. No garret for him. And that's fine. But the rest of us can become visually educated enough to understand why paintings like this just don't sufficiently nourish the mind or the heart. They are Reader's Digest Art. If you want Shakespeare, or Dostoevsky, or even Feminist Post-Colonial Marxism, you'll have to set your sights higher.

It's worth pursuing for a moment the literary analogy. If you are a reader and a writer and someone came along and wrote nothing but simple little stories in simple language with a formulaic plot, one-dimensional characters, simple, predictable resolutions and cheap, easy sentimentality, would that be enough for you? I should hope not.

Compositionally, "Almost Sundown" is as basic and unchallenging as it can be: foreground, background. No visual challenge. Everything is on the surface. Easy.

The girl's attitude and bearing, her expression, the way she twines her hair, is all formulaic. It's idealized and pedantic. Trite. The artists uses (mostly) local color to render her flesh and garments, though he becomes freer and less constricted in the background.

I suppose the highlight of the painting is intended to be the way the sunlight plays off her hair. And it's well done. The problem is, stuff like this has been done countless times, and better. See: the Impressionists. This is what we want from art? The play of sunlight on hair? It's fine to have that. But is that all we want?

Looking at the work, we might think: is this made at sunrise or sunset? At least that might give us something to think about. We might imagine something different about the girl's attitude and bearing, the thoughts running through her mind, if the work were made in the morning, rather than in the evening. Maybe, maybe not. But at least it would give us something to think about,

But, no. The artist is determined to give us nothing to think about or ponder. We are offered no challenges. He has helpfully titled the work "Almost Sundown," so we aren't even allowed to reflect on the time of day depicted in the work.

Verdict: Yawn. It's wallpaper.

Here's a 1921 work by Edward Hopper. It's called Night Shadows.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CRBK_oJYQOo/SwNnZd7ioJI/AAAAAAAAAzE/E5E8PTOGEMw/s1600/Night_Shadows_1921.jpg

Even the name sings of poetry, without giving away the meaning of the work.

Compositionally, the work is daring and unconventional, the exact opposite of Coombs's soporific compositional cliches. It's a striking view from above, not too often seen in fine arts in general, though a staple of graphic novels.

The inky, enigmatic shadow, that bold velvet-black line, cutting diagonally from left to right, intersects with, and provides a jarring counterpoint to, the gracefully curving expanse of the spacious white sidewalk. By itself that design is interesting to look at, even if nothing else were in the work.

What's it a shadow of? No doubt of a streetlight. That is the source of the illumination. But as the shadow crawls up the side of the building, it becomes immense, face-like, vaguely threatening. It looms.

Who is the man, and where is he going at this late hour? What is the storefront? We don't know. He seems to be walking at a brisk gait, and we sense that if we waited another moment, he might break out into a trot -- even into a run. Is he on some sinister mission? Or perhaps he is being pursued, and feeling threatened, in this lonely, street-lighted concrete island of the New York City night. We don't know. We are not given this information but left to ponder it.

So much of Hopper's work is like this: enigmatic, full of isolation, asperity, foreboding and solitude. It's spooky. It reminds us that the big city, for all its hustle and bustle, its swarming mobs, is at bottom a foreboding and lonely place, a place of anomie and alienation. We're faces in the crowd. Desolation. Loneliness and death. With no solution to the riddle of why we are here or where we go, if anywhere, when we die.

These are not the cheap, easy, facile emotions that Coombs trades in, but dark and disturbing emotions that are important precisely because they are authentic and we all must confront them whether we wish to or not. With an astonishing economy of means, and no recourse to color, Hopper has vividly evoked existentialism.

The line work and cross-hatching by itself is expressive, and so damned interesting to look at. It is reminiscent of Rembrandt. The sharp light/dark patterns hold one's attention and prefigure Noir film of the 1940s, still two decades in the future when Hopper made this.

Earlier I mentioned local color, and expressiveness in the visual arts. As I recall, someone took issue with my naming "expressiveness" as vital to the visual arts. I've no idea why. What is visual art, if not expression? Perhaps one could contend that some of the more extreme abstractions and simplifications of certain minimalist art are void of expression, or intended to be so, but I don't think so. Mondrian's Broadway Boogie-Woogie is one of the most expressive works I've ever encountered. Here it is:

http://uploads2.wikipaintings.org/images/piet-mondrian/broadway-boogie-woogie-1943.jpg

As to local color, what happens when the artist abandons it? Remember, local color is an attempt to reproduce as faithfully as possible the colors in the subject of the painting, the colors before one's very eyes.

Let's look at another work with the world "night' in it. It is the Night Cafe, by Vincent Van Gogh. In it, Van Gogh abandoned local color.

http://www.3cushion.com/Pics/Art%20Works/Van%20Gogh%20Night%20Cafe.jpg

Of this painting, Van Gogh wrote to his brother Theo: "I have tried to express the terrible passions of humanity by means of red and green."

The terrible passions of humanity by means of red and green! Not only is there expression in art, as someone earlier took issue with, but it may be done -- somehow! -- by means of red and green!

But how?

Red and green are complementary colors,

What does that mean?

Well, now we are into color theory. Color doesn't care whether you are a post-colonialist feminist Marxist, a Libertarian, a devotee of George Romney or whether your subscribe to Readers' Digest. It doesn't care about the "fiscal cliff" or anything else.

In the painter's color wheel, there are three primary colors: red, yellow and blue. These are the linchpins of the subtractive color wheel. In the additive color wheel, such as is used in Photoshop, the three primaries are red, green and blue, and in printing cyan, magenta and yellow.

Primary colors are colors that contain no trace of any color but themselves. That is why they are primary. They reflect the fact that the human eye is trichromatic.

Each of the primary colors has a secondary color that is its opposite and complement. In the case of red, that color is green: which is a 50/50 mixture of the two other primaries, yellow and blue. The complement of the primary yellow is violet: a 50/50 mixture of the primaries red and blue. And the complement of the primary blue is orange, a 50/50 mixture of the two other primaries red and yellow.

It is a curious fact about the way that the human mind is wired that these complementary colors reinforce each other. Red set against green brings out redness and greenness most powerfully. Yellow against violent brings out yellowness and violetness most powerfully. Blue against orange brings out blueness and orangeness most powerfully. This phenomenon is called complementary contrast.

Google Joseph Albers for more on this.

Van Gogh's painting isn't the best expression of the violent Red/Green complementary contrast, since the green of the pool-table felt is not set directly against the blood red of the walls, although the green of the ceiling does meet the red of the walls. And the painting of course contains a lot of yellow.

The main point, though, is that by abandoning local color -- for surely the cafe did not look just like this -- Van Gogh has gained powerful expressiveness. His expression is less subtle than that of Hopper, but along the same lines: He has painted a place, he wrote, where one can go mad.

By simple means of bold color and powerful three-point perspective, the artist has used paint by itself to pry open the door to the oubliette of the human psyche, down which he himself would ultimately plunge.

From such simplicity does the visual arts draw upon immense resources, with searing and soaring results.

More later.

stlukesguild

12-31-2012, 05:43 PM

I actually don't like Mondrian much... and I hate Broadway Boogie Woogie. I had a college painting professor, somewhat of an Expressionist (as I was as the time) once give us a lecture on Mondrian's composition. During the lecture, I asked, "Do you REALLY like Mondrian? REALLY?" He stopped and thought for a moment, and then replied, "Well...... I really don't like Broadway Boogie Woogie. No... That's not right... I really don't like Mondrian.":lol:

I actually like some of Mondrian's earlier works... largely because they have something of a more human touch to them. That's what I like about Sean Scully. He found a way to marry two opposite strains of abstraction: Hard-Edged Geometric Abstraction/Minimalism and Abstract Expressionism/Gesture Painting:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_8.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=8.jpg)

I suspect my aversion to the strain of geometric Abstraction has to do with the fact that I was inundated with such as a student. A good many of my teachers were former students of Joseph Albers. The head of the painting department at my school was one of the leading figures of the Op Art movement: Julian Stanczak:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_1985-Mystical-Seven-site.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=1985-Mystical-Seven-site.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_aprilinparis.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=aprilinparis.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Bathing-in-Red_lg.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Bathing-in-Red_lg.jpg)

There's a certain irony to the fact that in spite of my proclaimed aversion, geometry and pattern have become so central to my work.

*****

Hopper on the other hand, is brilliant. He is an example of the difference between the master craftsman and the master artist. I was able to see Hopper's Retrospective at the National Gallery a few years back. While his watercolor paintings are quite fluid and convey some of the sense of virtuosity that you find in Winslow Homer and even John Singer Sargent, his oil paintings have a certain rudimentary crudeness. I never find myself impressed by his handling of paint... let alone his drawing... which can be lumpen at times. In spite of this, the results are quite brilliant. He plays this geometry, which so well conveys a stark modern American urban landscape, against the color and isolated figures which so well convey a sense of atmosphere. Here are a few of my favorites:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_HopperE2RoominNY2z.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=HopperE2RoominNY2z.jpg)
-A Room in New York

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_d0097331_4ab084c04f32b.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=d0097331_4ab084c04f32b.jpg)
-Night Windows

Hopper spent some formative years in Paris and had studied the great Impressionists and Post-Impressionists. His paintings build upon the manner in which Degas, Vuiilard, and Bonnard set the viewer up as voyeurs to intimate domestic dramas. In A Room in New York we view a domestic scene through the window as if through the lens of a camera out on the balcony. The faceless man sits reading the evening paper while his faceless wife turns away and absent-mindedly plunks a few keys on the piano. They are separated by the table and the door... yet the red chair enveloping the man and the woman's red dress suggests an undercurrent of passion... unrequited desire.

In Night Windows, Hopper takes the voyeuristic view even further. We look across the street through the windows of a neighboring apartment. We are offered but a few suggestive details. The warm summer breeze blows the curtains outward. We see the edge of the bed (draped in red) and a woman clothed only in a rose (red) towel bends over (perhaps drying her hair) offering us a view of her shapely bottom. To the right, a lamp with a red shade casts forth a crimson light like those of the Red Light District in Amsterdam. Like Jimmy Stewart playing the voyeur in Rear Window, we are led into drawing all sorts of conclusions... making up narratives... many of a rather erotic nature.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_hopperoffice-night.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=hopperoffice-night.jpg)
-Office at Night

In Office at Night we are presented with a scene of a male office worker and his secretary working late into the night. The hard simplified forms presents a setting where everything is proper and business-like... but there is something unsettling about the greenish light... which is rather hellish as in Van Gogh's Night Cafe... if not as extreme. The man and the woman are framed and brought together by the light on the wall. He looks as if he is trying all he can to remain professional... unaware of the gaze his secretary makes in his direction and her voluptuous body that is barely kept contained by her tight business attire. The curved arms of the chair behind her almost reach out to caress her full buttocks... as perhaps the man desires. The entire setting conveys the sort of understated sexual tension one finds in film noir... like a scene from The Maltese Falcon or Double Indemnity.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_hopper16.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=hopper16.jpg)
-Summertime

Hopper can create a dramatic mood from the simplest of means: a curtail blowing in the wind as a lovely red-haired woman in a clinging and semi-transparent white dress steps out of a stark white building into the blinding light of the summer sun which casts raking shadows on the walls.

I fully realized the limitations of Clement Greenberg's theories when it came to his comments on Edward Hopper. Greenberg was unable to wholly dismiss Hopper in spite of the fact that his paintings challenged all of his theories about abstraction, narrative, American provincialism, etc... He recognized the genius of the work... but was unable to admit that perhaps Hopper just might be a great painter. The best he could offer was to suggest that Hopper represented some debased strain of literature.

Another artist who recognized the genius of Hopper was Alfred Hitchcock. The way Hopper stages his scenes, the unexpected points of view, the single figure isolated against the modern city landscape, the psycho-sexual dramas, the sexual undercurrents in a society that was ever very proper... all of these had an immense impact on Hitchcock. And who could fail to recognize this as the very model for Norman Bates' house?

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_HouseByTheRailroad.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=HouseByTheRailroad.jpg)

Cioran

12-31-2012, 09:44 PM

Sorry, I'm sort of on the go so I have not had time to read and consider all of your latest post, but ... you HATE Broadway Boogie-Woogie?

:eek6:

Doh!

It may be that you have to live in New York City, as I do, to get it.

Anyway, keep up the good work, and don't let the plonkers get you down! ;)

Great stuff on Hopper, stlukesguild. Thanks.

miyako73

01-01-2013, 05:03 PM

How's Cioran today? Can you explain why you like Broadway Boogie Woogie? I know I'm not on ignore. Be honest to yourself.

St Luke, can you comment on my reading of your Noli Me Tangere? Like my formalist analysis of your work's title. Thanks.

Gilliatt Gurgle

01-01-2013, 05:26 PM

...Up until about 5 years ago I was working mostly in collage related to books and reading. A few examples:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_106-WinterMeditationsuponaThemebyJSBachThomasMoresm.jp g (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view¤t=106-WinterMeditationsuponaThemebyJSBachThomasMoresm.jp g)
-Winter Meditations on a Theme by Thomas More

...I'll post two of my newer figurative paintings that I have posted on line before:

...The second image is to give some concept of scale. My figurative paintings are 80"x44" and are constructed of mixed media (pastel, acrylic, pencil, and gold-leaf on paper). My major influences include Japanese Ukiyo-e prints and screen painting, Indian sculpture, Persian, Arabic, and Medieval European illuminated manuscript paintings, Byzantine mosaics, early Italian Renaissance painting, Ingres, Klimt, Bonnard, Matisse, Beckmann, Francis Bacon, and recently... popular culture, posters, etc...

Thanks for sharing examples of your work. A couple years back you shared Temptation on the Let out the artist thread (posts 473 and 476) along with a blog entry. Temptation is very similar to Tyger, Tyger and Noli me tangere, are they part of a more extensive series on a theme?
I’m drawn more to your collage works, with the use of old envelopes, inclusion of postage stamps, the overall geometrical composition and proportions are pleasing, “comfortable”. They appeal to my architectural eye.

Happy New Year in art

I took a moment to see what 2013 has to offer as it pertains to upcoming local museum exhibits.
One exhibit that I already had my sights on from last year, is the “Bernini Sculpting in Clay” coming to the Kimbell Art Museum in Fort Worth this February.

The Bernini exhibit is an absolute must for me. I was fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to see many of his sculptures in the flesh when visiting Rome on two occasions. The exhibit will feature 49 of his clay and terracotta study models as well as several of his drawings.

https://www.kimbellart.org/exhibition/bernini-sculpting-clay

Fountain of the Four Rivers at Piazza Novona (1988):

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/th_1820820-R02-187.jpg (http://s963.beta.photobucket.com/user/tabuka1/media/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/1820820-R02-187.jpg.html)

^Note: the lion at the bottom of the tree just above the water, now look at the museum link above and the photo of Bernini’s clay study for the lion. Btw that is St. Agnes church in background left.

In addition to the Bernini exhibit, the Kimbell will also host “Wari: Lords of the Ancient Andes” and “The Age of Picasso and Matisse: Modern Masters from The Art Institute of Chicago”

https://www.kimbellart.org/exhibition/wari-lords-ancient-andes

https://www.kimbellart.org/exhibition/age-picasso-and-matisse-modern-masters-art-institute-chicago

Speaking of the Kimbell, the museum expansion is slated to open late 2013. The expansion is designed by Italian architect Renzo Piano.

The Dallas Museum of Art is still showing “Posters of Paris: Toulouse-Lautrec and His Contemporaries.” See St. Lukes posting earlier on this thread (Post no. 6)
The exhibit ends January 20th, so I better hurry.

http://www.dallasmuseumofart.org/View/CurrentExhibitions/dma_442782

Heading back to Fort Worth, I skimmed through the Amon Carter Museum of American Art website to see what’s cooking for 2013. I discovered the artist Romare Bearden and his upcoming exhibit with a literary connection; “A Black Odyssey”.

http://www.cartermuseum.org/exhibitions/romare-bearden-a-black-odyssey

I’m interested in seeing this one.

Sorry to bury your questions miyako73.....St. Lukes?, Cioran?...

.

Scheherazade

01-01-2013, 06:38 PM

~

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Off-topic and/or inflammatory posts will be removed without further notice.

~

miyako73

01-01-2013, 08:12 PM

Cioran and St. Luke, do you find "Broadway Boogie Woogie" better, more beautiful, more briliant than this painting "Avenida Manila" that won a medal in Biennale Internazionale dell’ Arte Contemporonea Florence. The painting is a depiction of a street in Manila. I want to learn from you guys how you compare paintings with almost the same subject.

8577

stlukesguild

01-13-2013, 12:18 AM

As most here probably know, I am an incurable bibliophile... nay, a biblio-maniac. I am writing these words from an office den that by most definitions is a decent small library. I am surrounded by several thousand books... at last count at least 3500. The book shelves are full. Books are stacked on top of these reaching to the ceiling. Books teeter and tower on the desk, on the tables, on top of the computer, and on the floor, turning the room into a labyrinth of the written word that J.L. Borges would surely understand. I became hooked on reading and books from a young age... and it was through books that I was first truly introduced to art.

The first book that I remember reading and wholly enjoying was Dr. Seuss' classic, Green Eggs and Ham. I have little doubt that I was as enthralled by the visual imagery as I was by the text:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Green-eggs-and-ham.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Green-eggs-and-ham.jpg)

Not long after, my brother received Dr. Seuss The Sleep Book for his birthday... a gift that taught me the meaning of "envy". The visual imagery of this book was even more fantastic... surreal, even (although I did not then know the term):

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_7161396578_1c62801efc.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=7161396578_1c62801efc.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_SL_Sleep_Book_017f.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=SL_Sleep_Book_017f.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_drseuss-sleepbook_ipad2_screen2large.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=drseuss-sleepbook_ipad2_screen2large.jpg)

When I first stumbled upon Salvador Dali not too many years later, I could not help but recognize a similarity of visual language. This painting in particular, entitled Sleep, struck me as quite "Seussian" with the head balanced on stilts...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Dali-8.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Dali-8.jpg)

... an apt image of the tenuous nature of sleep and dreams.

Other books that ranked among my favorites due primarily to the art included Maurice Sendak's Where the Wild Things Are:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Where-the-Wild-Things-Are.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Where-the-Wild-Things-Are.jpg)

A good many years later I found that I was just as enthralled with Sendak's unique visual magic and fantasy when I attended his production of Mozart's Magic Flute:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_003067.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=003067.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_il_fullxfull287472811.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=il_fullxfull287472811.jpg)

as well as his contributions to Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_nmbc02.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=nmbc02.jpg)

Both Seuss and Sendak inspired me and fueled me with a love of the fantastic. I am still far more enamored of the fantastic and the fabulous than I am of the realistic... in literature and art.

I was lucky enough to have inherited several older books from my grandparents that were illustrated with engravings or lithographs. Among these, I remember Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking-glass...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_121.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=121.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_tumblr_mdcknfoije1qzd7qpo1_1280.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=tumblr_mdcknfoije1qzd7qpo1_1280.jpg)

Mother Goose...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_gemsfrommothergo00newy_0001.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=gemsfrommothergo00newy_0001.jpg)

the whole Wizard of Oz cycle...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Denslow-Oz-ch5-2.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Denslow-Oz-ch5-2.jpg)

Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_aa_twain_huckfinn_1_e.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=aa_twain_huckfinn_1_e.jpg)

the tales of Edgar Allan Poe...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_AtaZiRDCEAA4XOV.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=AtaZiRDCEAA4XOV.jpg)

and the collected works of Shakespeare:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_AMidsummerNightsDream_OldPrint_100.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=AMidsummerNightsDream_OldPrint_100.jpg)

I didn't get around to reading Shakespeare until later... the texts proved far too dense for me at the time... but the engraved illustrations were incredibly atmospheric and highly seductive. I still remember the image of Richard III's hired goons killing his young nephews as they slept.

As I approached adolescence, my tastes in illustration shifted toward comic books. I followed any number of comic book superheroes: Batman, Spiderman, Superman, Captain America, the Fantastic Four, etc...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_superman-flying.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=superman-flying.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_superman-vs-zod2.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=superman-vs-zod2.jpg)

I didn't know it at the time, but comic books had roots in some truly "serious" art. The graphic elements of the imagery, the page layouts, the shifting point of view and scale... even the narratives laden with superheroes undertaking impossible deeds, monsters, ghouls, ghosts, epic battles... all of these and more could be found in Japanese Ukiyo-e prints dating back to the 18th and 19th century.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_K2620.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=K2620.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_actorspan.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=actorspan.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Kuniyoshi02.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Kuniyoshi02.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Kuniyoshi-Defy.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Kuniyoshi-Defy.jpg)

Even if I had known about "serious art"... "fine art"... at the time, I doubt I would have been the least interested. This was a period dominated by Modernist abstraction. In actuality, the greatest draftsmen of the age were employed in illustration and comic books. Where the Baroque had Caravaggio and Rubens and Van Dyck painting grandiose oil paintings of Christian and Greco-Roman heroes and saints... the mid-20th century had Batman, Superman, and Wonder-Woman... drawn with all the Baroque love of the muscular body seen in dramatic action and from breathtaking points of view.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_batman-and-catwoman-beyond-700x545.png (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=batman-and-catwoman-beyond-700x545.png)

Speaking of Wonder Woman... comic books also offered the adolescent boy, such as myself, the first real sexual fantasies... in the form of hot, scantily-clad women:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_31books_600.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=31books_600.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_1525465-vampi01_cov_campbell_super.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=1525465-vampi01_cov_campbell_super.jpg)

Along with the comic books of superheroes, I was also reading those that featured fantastic tales of aliens, monsters, ghouls, ghosts, and the like:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_sstrangetales-097.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=sstrangetales-097.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_sstrangetales-099.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=sstrangetales-099.jpg)

And then there were the more "underground" satirical comics ala MAD, Cracked, and Plop! These accompanied my first nascent adolescent steps toward teenage rebellion:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_HappyGems-TmX-126039.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=HappyGems-TmX-126039.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Madhk1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Madhk1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_plop_03_a_1974_02_wolverton_cv.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=plop_03_a_1974_02_wolverton_cv.jpg)

It was around this time that I discovered and became obsessed with my first real "fine artist", Salvador Dali. Dali was introduced to me by a young, female art teacher, just out of art school. He was like an unadulterated drug:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_boiled_beans.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=boiled_beans.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_cannibal.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=cannibal.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_dali_persistence_of_memory1931.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=dali_persistence_of_memory1931.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_narciss.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=narciss.jpg)

The guy could paint with the facility of any realist... but didn't waste his time on such boring crap. Instead he painted dream-like images of melting watches, ant invasions, elephants on stilts and giraffes on fire... bodies morphing into strange monsters and devouring themselves, bizarre illusions... and all the strange sexual imagery... Here was an artist any teenage boy could love.

I ran out and bought my first art book on Dali... and it was a magnificent and incredibly expensive book. At $100 it was a luxury item for me at the time... but worth every bit. The pages were gilt in gold leaf, the cover was also laden with gold and embossed, and the book weighed a ton... illustrated with the finest quality reproductions. I gloated over and gorged myself on that book... until I virtually knew every painting... intimately.

My obsession with Dali lasted perhaps a year... at least until I discovered Heironymus Bosch...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8234/8379101368_9f9231654f_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8234/8379101368_9f9231654f_b.jpg)

If Dali was like an unadulterated drug... he was marijuana... where Bosch was pure crack cocaine or heroin. Nothing in Dali prepared me for this 15th century madman. To this day I would name the Garden of Earthly Delights as one of the ten... if not 5 greatest paintings ever. Dali's surreal imagery came from his private dreams and fantasies. Bosch' nightmares came from reality. He recognized that reality was as surreal, fantastic, absurd, and nightmarish as any fantasy or dream. I can think of no other painting that has so kept me enthralled... looking ever closer at all those unimaginable details... all the little dirty deeds...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8094/8379100752_3801e4a400_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8094/8379100752_3801e4a400_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8470/8378023671_604356bc29_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8470/8378023671_604356bc29_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8493/8378023443_827785b9f8_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8493/8378023443_827785b9f8_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8357/8379100360_9637aba9c8_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8357/8379100360_9637aba9c8_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8211/8378023265_41647808c5_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8211/8378023265_41647808c5_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8055/8378022835_6af73660b2_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8055/8378022835_6af73660b2_b.jpg)

The symbolism is such in Bosch, that one could write entire volumes on just the Garden of Earthly Delights... and indeed, more than a few art historians have done just that.

And where the "Garden" leaves off, The Temptation of St. Anthony picks up:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_TemptationofStAnthony1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=TemptationofStAnthony1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_tempt-l.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=tempt-l.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_tempt-c.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=tempt-c.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_tempt-r.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=tempt-r.jpg)

More than a few viewers have noted that Bosch' paintings suggest an almost frenzied LSD inspired vision... so it shouldn't come as a surprise that there may indeed be a link. St. Anthony, due to the tales of his visions, was considered the patron saint of the affliction known as "St. Anthony's Fire" or ergot poisoning caused by fungal infections of rye and other cereals which is then ingested. The symptoms include gangrene as a result of vasoconstriction induced by the ergotamine-ergocristine alkaloids of the fungus leading to poor circulation, loss of peripheral sensation, edema and ultimately the death (gangrene) and loss of affected tissues, painful seizures and spasms, diarrhea, itching, headaches, nausea and vomiting. The mental effects including mania or psychosis including LSD-like hallucinations.

ftil

01-13-2013, 03:27 AM

Originally posted by stlukesguild

Bosch' nightmares came from reality. He recognized that reality was as surreal, fantastic, absurd, and nightmarish as any fantasy or dream. I can think of no other painting that has so kept me enthralled... looking ever closer at all those unimaginable details... all the little dirty deeds...

I could not say that Bosch kept me “enthralled”. I have learned about Bosch by…… an accident as I searched books about Gnosticism. I have found Wilhelm Fraenger’s The Millenium of Hieronymus Bosch. I haven’t finished reading his book as Fraenger didn’t provide specific references so that I could verify the sources. His book didn’t even have bibliography.....perhaps, the publisher has forgotten. :D

I have found in Wikipedia about Fraenger.

Wilhelm Fraenger (5 June 1890 in Erlangen – 19 February 1964 in Potsdam) was a German art historian.
Fraenger was a specialist in the epoch of the German Peasants' War and of the mysticism of the Late Middle Ages. He wrote important studies of Jerg Ratgeb, Matthias Grünewald and Hieronymus Bosch. His work on Bosch was very influential in its day and considered Bosch under the aspect of occultism, seeing Bosch as an artist guided by an esoteric mysticism. He maintained friendships with numerous artists and intellectuals, some stretching decades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Fraenger

Occult (from the Latin word occultus "clandestine, hidden, secret) is "knowledge of the hidden" …bibliography or specific references, therefore, must be hidden. :lol:

Pierre Menard

01-13-2013, 03:50 AM

Great post, StLukes. Interesting reading.

The last little bit reminded me of how I really need to go out and see more paintings in person. It truly changes the way you experience visual art.

stlukesguild

01-13-2013, 12:27 PM

Wilhelm Fraenger was more than a bit of a whacko... although his book on Bosch provided the first real look at his work in depth. I still have a copy myself. The Garden of Earthly Delights by the writer, Peter S. Beagle was far more useful. Beagle offered far more solid interpretations of Bosch' works based on the writings of mainstream art historians as well as his own observations and conclusions as an art lover and a writer. The book presents Bosch is a manner accessible to the non-art historian. The best book on Bosch available at present appears to be that by Larry Silver which is built more on solid research without the desire to prove some personal theory, which marred Fraenger's book. Fraenger assumed that the "heretical" details mocking the clergy proved that Bosch must have been a member of some heretical cult into the occult... but in all reality, Bosch's mockery of the clergy and the aristocracy are no different from that of Chaucer or many other artists and writers. Bosch had the added advantage that he did not need to sell his paintings. He had married one of the richest women in the county which provided him a degree of independence that left him free to paint as he wished.

SLG- I might note... that up to this point I had never been to an art museum nor seen a real painting of merit in reality. While I may have known that many paintings were far larger than they appeared in reproduction in books, having only seen them in this manner had a profound impact upon my perceptions of painting.

PM-The last little bit reminded me of how I really need to go out and see more paintings in person. It truly changes the way you experience visual art.

Yes... at this point, even though I knew that many of the paintings by the old masters that I was just then exploring were quite sizable... the dimensions were printed right there in the books... my actual experience... what I was seeing... was limited to book-scaled reproductions. As a result, all of my efforts at painting at the time might be termed as miniatures. I have little doubt that William Blake's work was marked by the fact that most of the artists he knew and admired he only knew through mechanical reproductions: engravings.

JCamilo

01-13-2013, 01:00 PM

Vampirella... so strange they started to try to make her history as if she is not just an impossible walking swimsuit. Frank Frazetta art in black white was the best thing for cheap horror stuff.

ftil

01-13-2013, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by stlukesguild

Wilhelm Fraenger was more than a bit of a whacko... although his book on Bosch provided the first real look at his work in depth. I still have a copy myself. The Garden of Earthly Delights by the writer, Peter S. Beagle was far more useful. Beagle offered far more solid interpretations of Bosch' works based on the writings of mainstream art historians as well as his own observations and conclusions as an art lover and a writer. The book presents Bosch is a manner accessible to the non-art historian. The best book on Bosch available at present appears to be that by Larry Silver which is built more on solid research without the desire to prove some personal theory, which marred Fraenger's book. Fraenger assumed that the "heretical" details mocking the clergy proved that Bosch must have been a member of some heretical cult into the occult... but in all reality, Bosch's mockery of the clergy and the aristocracy are no different from that of Chaucer or many other artists and writers. Bosch had the added advantage that he did not need to sell his paintings. He had married one of the richest women in the county which provided him a degree of independence that left him free to paint as he wished.

Well, I would say that Bosch was a whacko. Therefore, you may be right that Wilhelm Fraenger was a whacko too……. for choosing to write about Bosch. :lol:

Second, I don't understand how you can say that Fraenger "provided the first real look at his work in depth". It is a work of pseudo scholar who didn't provide specific references and bibliography.
I wouldn’t waste my time to read others interpretations of his art. As I said, it was by an accident that I discovered his paintings.

Paulclem

01-13-2013, 02:36 PM

It is interesting, St Lukes, that, separated as we are by thousands of miles and from similar but different cultures, that we share a good number of pictorial influences. I don't mean to suggest I'm an artist, or even cultured, but I recognise many of those references you made from my own childhood.

Dr Suess books were coveted in my first class - we had The Cat in the Hat - and the kids would rush to be the first to get that book. It was the same with Green Eggs and Ham later. Mother Goose, Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer were all there, and I really loved the marvel comics and read them over and over when I could afford them. Mad was there too, but I always went for the X-Men or Dr Strange. I came across Bosch and, in my teens, a friend introduced me to Dali, though I have to say I had barely an artistic or appreciative bone in my body at that time.

Interesting post.

stlukesguild

01-13-2013, 03:06 PM

Around the time of my discovery of Bosch I began to make something of a systematic exploration of art history on my own. Today this would have been so much more easy with access to the internet, Wikipedia, and literally millions of works of art available in reproductions on-line. Back then I relied on the small library in the small town in which I lived, as well as those in the towns immediately surrounding. Newsweek had published this great series on the major museums around the world: the Louvre, the National Gallery London, the Hermitage, the Prado, the Uffizi, the Met, etc... These presented the artists by nationality and chronologically. I also began to pick up monographs on artist who really caught my attention.

Being so floored by Bosch, I began to look around for something similar and I rapidly stumbled on Pieter Bruegel (Brueghel) the Elder. Brueghel began his career as something of an heir to Bosch. This was especially true of his engravings which employed similar themes and imagery:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Pieter_Bruegel_the_Elder_-_Big_Fishes_Eat_Little_Fishes_-_WGA3537.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Pieter_Bruegel_the_Elder_-_Big_Fishes_Eat_Little_Fishes_-_WGA3537.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Pieter_Bruegel_the_Elder-_The_Seven_Deadly_Sins_or_the_Seven_Vices_-_Gluttony.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Pieter_Bruegel_the_Elder-_The_Seven_Deadly_Sins_or_the_Seven_Vices_-_Gluttony.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_tumblr_mdp3reSJKG1rpvjjio1_1280.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=tumblr_mdp3reSJKG1rpvjjio1_1280.jpg)

Like Bosch, Brueghel presented landscapes that were teeming with tiny figures... often engaged in all sorts of dirty deed... all laden in symbolism and allegory. The meaning of Big Fish Eat Smaller Fish is not too difficult to discern but prints such as Christ in Limbo (the Harrowing of Hell) and Gluttony from the series on The Seven Deadly Vices are full of bizarre Bosch-like details that leave the viewer puzzling for hours.

Brueghel also produced a number of paintings that following in the fantastic tradition of Bosch. Among my favorites are The Fall of the Rebel Angels:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_rebel-angels.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=rebel-angels.jpg)

As the Rebel Angels are driven from heaven by those Angels loyal to God, they already have begun to metamorphose into strange creatures... amphibians, fish, one toad-like creature that opens his own belly to reveal his guts and eggs... and another fallen angel... the most beautiful... perhaps Lucifer himself... is blessed with the lovely wings of a butterfly. As with the "Hell" panel of Bosch's Garden of Earthly Delights the viewer can virtually hear the cacophonous noise of this scene as the battle is accompanied by yelling, howling, horns blaring and bleating, the drone of a hurdy-gurdy, and the pluck of various stringed instruments. Of course Bosch takes this even further, transforming the instruments that in earthly life were the source of profane and lurid music, into the very means of torture for sinners in his hellish orchestra.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8515/8378029937_aef57e921e_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8515/8378029937_aef57e921e_b.jpg)

Another favorite painting by Brueghel in the tradition of Bosch is the painting entitled Dulle Griet (or "Mad Meg"). The painting portrays a tale from Flemish folklore of a woman so driven by desire for riches that she leads an army of women in a raid on hell itself. The painting is an obvious comment on the sin of avarice.

Perhaps the greatest of Brueghel's paintings in the realm of Bosch-inspired fantasy is the harrowing Triumph of Death. In this painting, death is unrelenting and unforgiving. He shows no mercy and no concern for age, wealth, or rank. Women, children, kings, knights, Popes, court jesters, musicians, mothers, lovers... death comes for all... and all are ferried away to the scorched landscape of the dead.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_death-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=death-1.jpg)

Brueghel, however, worked with a broader range than Bosch. He was no mere follower of Bosch. Along with Bosch, he established the tradition of Netherlandish landscape painting with his God's eye view of the natural world. Brueghel's landscapes exhibit an acute observation of the details of the real world that is astounding. These were clearly the result of endless life studies... some of which have survived.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_ancient_beekeeping_bruegel.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=ancient_beekeeping_bruegel.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_tumblr_mdp3v2eay51rpvjjio1_1280.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=tumblr_mdp3v2eay51rpvjjio1_1280.jpg)

Brueghel's study of beekeepers presents an almost "surreal" image... wholly rooted in reality. In spite of the fact that the Netherlandish painters lacked the formal understanding of anatomy, physiology, and perspective that the Italian masters such as Michelangelo, Raphael, Leonardo, etc... displayed, Brueghel still exhibits an unprecedented grasp of foreshortening, the body seen in a broad array of poses... at work and at play... and the illusion of receding space as conveyed through scale and aerial perspective.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_BRUEGEL_Pieter_the_Elder_Gloomy_Day.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=BRUEGEL_Pieter_the_Elder_Gloomy_Day.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_BRUEGEL_Pieter_the_Elder_The_Harvesters.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=BRUEGEL_Pieter_the_Elder_The_Harvesters.jp g)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_hunters-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=hunters-1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_haymaking-1565.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=haymaking-1565.jpg)

Nor has any artist surpassed Brueghel in his ability to capture not only the details of the landscape... but the sense of atmosphere and color. The teal-pewter-gray sky and the black figures isolated against the stark white snow in Hunters in the Snow perfectly conveys the frozen atmosphere of February. In the painting The Harvesters/August one can literally feel the heavy oppressive humid atmosphere that has led a number of the farm-workers to collapse with exhaustion. In Haymaking/July(?) we are presented with a glorious summer day. I have always thought it appears more like June than July. The weather is not yet too hot as conveyed by the cool colors, the clothing, and the attitudes of the laborers. While hay is gathered in the fields, girls haul baskets of fruit... berries and cherries... off to market.

Peter Paul Rubens, who would become the greatest Flemish painter, and the artist perhaps most instrumental in the development of the genre of the landscape... especially in France and England... was a great admirer of Brueghel. Indeed, he owned several of Brueghel's paintings and was a close friend and co-worker with Brueghel's son, Jan. Rubens made a study after the three farm girls in Brueghel's Haymaking (which unfortunately I cannot find online)...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_14july.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=14july.jpg)

... and other elements of Brueghel's landscapes pop up again and again in the later artist's work:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_rubens01.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=rubens01.jpg)

One of my absolute favorite paintings by Brueghel is the so-called Netherlandish Proverbs:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_proverbs.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=proverbs.jpg)

At first glance, the painting is a realistic view of the comings and goings in a small Netherlandish village... although some of the things being carried out appear a bit strange. Nearly every last detail in the painting, however, is a literal representation of then-commonly-known proverbs: "He has an eel by the tail" (Akin to our "tiger by the tail". "She holds fire in one hand and water in the other" (She blows hot and cold). "One must crawl to make one's way through the world." "He has the world balanced on the tip of his thumb" (In the palm of his hand). "he runs his head against a brick wall." "Their so close they s*** from out of the same hole." The meanings of many of these proverbs are still recognizable today.

One of the most intriguing of Brueghel's paintings was his last, Magpie on the Gallows:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_BRUEGEL_Pieter_the_Elder_Magpie_On_The_Gallow.j pg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=BRUEGEL_Pieter_the_Elder_Magpie_On_The_Gal low.jpg)

Gallows were a common site in the war-torn Netherlands as they struggled against oppressive Spanish rule. But here we have the gallows in the most beautiful... even idyllic of landscapes. Beneath it peasants dance joyfully. Clearly the painting suggest the co-existence of life and death. Like Poussin's painting "Et in Arcadia ego"... even in paradise we shall find death...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_les_bergers_darcadie_ii.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=les_bergers_darcadie_ii.jpg)

The fact that Brueghel left this one painting to his wife in his will has led others to surmise that the image of the magpie (a symbol of gossip) on the gallows was something of a warning to his wife against excessive loose talk after he was gone.

ftil

01-13-2013, 03:23 PM

St. Luke,
I am curious where you found that Brueghel was inspired by Bosch’s paintings. Did Brueghel say that Bosch was his inspiration?

stlukesguild

01-13-2013, 03:49 PM

Well, I would say that Bosch was a whacko. Therefore, you may be right that Wilhelm Fraenger was a whacko too……. for choosing to write about Bosch.

Bosch is acknowledged as one of the greatest artists of the Renaissance and one of the key figures in the development of the Northern Renaissance. I don't see how electing to study and write about him could be deemed "whacko"... except by yourself.

Second, I don't understand how you can say that Fraenger "provided the first real look at his work in depth". It is a work of pseudo scholar who didn't provide specific references and bibliography.

Yes, Fraenger's book... or rather the common English translation doesn't include a separate bibliography according to modern/contemporary formal academic standards. However, the book includes an appendix of some 100+ pages with hundreds of citations and there are hundreds more citations throughout the text itself. Obviously, you have not read or even come across a complete copy of Fraenger's Heironymus Bosch.

I probably should not have termed Fraenger as a whacko. He is far from being a pseudo-scholar. He has far more legitimate claim to being a respected scholar of art history than either you or I. Fraenger began his studies of Art History at Studied at the University of Heidelberg in 1915. He was awarded a major prize by the university for his essay on 17th century art theory, and earned his Doctorate from Heidelberg in Art History in 1917. He dis further studies in France, Holland, and Switzerland and was appointed Library Director of Schlossbibliothek in Mannheim. Fraenger founded a group of academics opposed to certain aspects of "elitism" in the study of the arts, and in support of Progressive ideas in education. In 1927 Fraenger was forced out of power by Nazis due to his progressive views. The nazi's took an even more hostile view of his book of the German painter, Matthias Grünewald. After the war, Fraenger became active in politics and education, and was later appointed appointed director for the Center for German Folk Studies (Institut für deutsche Volkskunde), part of the German Academy of Sciences. His books on Bosch and Grünewald remain important Art Historical texts.

Fraenger's studies on Bosch are incredibly well-researched. Fraenger constructed an explanation of the artist's work based on his theory that Bosch belonged to a heretical group, the Adamites in 's-Hertogenbosch, which practiced many of the rites depicted in Bosch's paintings. The theory remained controversial and unaccepted by other Bosch scholars, including Charles de Tolnay.

I wouldn’t waste my time to read others interpretations of his art. As I said, it was by an accident that I discovered his paintings.

Yes... it's much easier to make up your own interpretations based on a complete lack of knowledge of the artist, his biography, the culture/society in which he worked, his artistic predecessors and sources of inspiration.

ftil

01-13-2013, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by stlukesguild
Yes, Fraenger's book... or rather the common English translation doesn't include a separate bibliography according to modern/contemporary formal academic standards. However, the book includes an appendix of some 100+ pages with hundreds of citations and there are hundreds more citations throughout the text itself. Obviously, you have not read or even come across a complete copy of Fraenger's Heironymus Bosch.

There are citations but there is no specific references so that the reader can’t verify the sources.
Perhaps, you don’t have a problem about that but I do.
Too many pseudo scholars and pseudo scientists of my liking. :brow:

Fraenger's studies on Bosch are incredibly well-researched.

Too bad that he didn’t learned how to provide specific references.

Yes... it's much easier to make up your own interpretations based on a complete lack of knowledge of the artist, his biography, the culture/society in which he worked, his artistic predecessors and sources of inspiration.

Well, I haven’t finished Fraenger’s book. Again, it is a pseudo scholar work. If it wasn’t, he would provide specific references. Sorry, but I don’t consider pseudo work as a source of knowledge. :lol:

stlukesguild

01-13-2013, 04:37 PM

I am curious where you found that Brueghel was inspired by Bosch’s paintings. Did Brueghel say that Bosch was his inspiration?

Brueghel's works clearly follow in the fantastic tradition of Heironymus Bosch... especially early on. Bosch was already dead by the time Brueghel had become a mature artist, but his work remained highly popular and there were any number of copies and forgeries:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8368/8378027303_923ccd333c_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8368/8378027303_923ccd333c_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8088/8378027151_e4eab2db6e_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8088/8378027151_e4eab2db6e_z.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8335/8378116221_6a3c1e7995_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8335/8378116221_6a3c1e7995_b.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_the-concert-in-the-egg-1480.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=the-concert-in-the-egg-1480.jpg)

Demand for Bosch-like paintings and prints continued well into the 16th century. Hieronymus Co ck, the great Flemish printer and publisher fed this demand with prints after Bosch and in the manner of Bosch. Brueghel was among the many artists who provided images for Co ck, and his print Big Fish Eat Little Fish

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Pieter_Bruegel_the_Elder_-_Big_Fishes_Eat_Little_Fishes_-_WGA3537-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Pieter_Bruegel_the_Elder_-_Big_Fishes_Eat_Little_Fishes_-_WGA3537-1.jpg)

...was actually published attributed to Bosch... no doubt in hope for a larger audience.

It doesn't call for a great leap of imagination to recognize that as Brueghel knew Bosch' work, provided prints for the same publisher who was promoting works after Bosch or in the style of Bosch, allowed for one of his first prints for this same publisher to be printed attributed to Bosch... then it is just quite probable that images such as this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_11-4.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=11-4.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_bruegel17.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=bruegel17.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_bruegel18.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=bruegel18.jpg)

... were inspired (at least in part) by the artist's exposure to Bosch's work... Brueghel almost certainly knew of Bosch' Garden of Earthly Delights (which remained in the Netherlands until 1566) either through the original, or through one of the dozens of known copies.

stlukesguild

01-13-2013, 04:44 PM

There are citations but there is no specific references so that the reader can’t verify the sources.

How specific do you need? My copy of Fraenger's book lists hundred of texts which Fraenger cites by title, author, date, and page. How much more do you need to verify? You're not a scholar nor an art historian.

Perhaps, you don’t have a problem about that but I do.
Too many pseudo scholars and pseudo scientists of my liking.

Starting with that face in the mirror?

Fraenger's studies on Bosch are incredibly well-researched.

Too bad that he didn’t learned how to provide specific references.

Again... what do you want? A hand-written copy of the artist's autobiography?

ftil

01-13-2013, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by stlukesguild

Brueghel's works clearly follow in the fantastic tradition of Heironymus Bosch... especially early on. Bosch was already dead by the time Brueghel had become a mature artist, but his work remained highly popular and there were any number of copies and forgeries:

I asked a question about Brueghel because Fraenger mentioned that the person who ordered the The Garden of Earthly Delights was unknown. He also talked about the secrecy about that painting. So, I was wondering how Brueghel could see it…unless he had the same sponsor. Or perhaps, Fraenger wasn’t that wrong. :lol:

How specific do you need? My copy of Fraenger's book lists hundred of texts which Fraenger cites by title, author, date, and page. How much more do you need to verify? You're not a scholar nor an art historian.

Well, you have a different copy that I had then. There was only the name of the author. No the title of the book , no page, no year, no bibliography. How would you call that? :brow:

I am really curious and I may look at university library, if I can find a copy you have.

ftil

01-13-2013, 06:01 PM

I have checked in both university libraries and both have a copy of The Millennium of Hieronymus Bosch. Interestingly enough both copies were published by Chicago, University of Chicago Press [1951].
The copy I have read was also published by Chicago, University of Chicago Press [1951]
Very intriguing, I will definitely check it out how did it happened that my copy didn’t have neither specific references nor bibliography.

stlukesguild

01-13-2013, 07:52 PM

I asked a question about Brueghel because Fraenger mentioned that the person who ordered the The Garden of Earthly Delights was unknown.

The provenance of many older paintings is unknown. In the case of The Garden of Earthly Delights, art historians have not even been in agreement as to the approximate date of the painting. Proposed dates range from 1460-1504. Wikipedia gives a solid general overview of the history of the painting:

Charles de Tolnay's suggests that the triptych was ordered by Engelbrecht II of Nassau, in or shortly after 1481, when he attended the Chapter of the Order of the Golden Fleece in 's-Hertogenbosch. The Garden was first documented in 1517, one year after the artist's death, when Antonio de Beatis, a canon from Molfetta, Italy, described the work as part of the decoration in the town palace of the Counts of the House of Nassau in Brussels. The palace was a high-profile location, a house often visited by heads of state and leading court figures. The prominence of the painting has led some to conclude that the work was commissioned, and not "solely … a flight of the imagination".

It is probable that the patron of the work was Engelbrecht II of Nassau, who died in 1504, or his successor Henry III of Nassau-Breda, the Stadtholder or governor of several of the Habsburg provinces in the Low Countries. De Beatis wrote in his travel journal that "there are some panels on which bizarre things have been painted. They represent seas, skies, woods, meadows, and many other things, such as people crawling out of a shell, others that bring forth birds, men and women, white and blacks doing all sorts of different activities and poses.

Because the triptych was publicly displayed in the palace of the House of Nassau, it was visible to many, and Bosch's reputation and fame quickly spread across Europe. The work’s popularity can be measured by the numerous surviving copies—in oil, engraving and tapestry—commissioned by wealthy patrons, as well as by the number of forgeries in circulation after his death.

stlukesguild

01-13-2013, 08:04 PM

For those interested, Google Earth includes a feature that allows you to explore The Garden of Earthly Delights and other paintings in the Prado (and I assume other museums) in the most incredible detail:

http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2009/01/explore-masterpieces-of-prado-museum-up.html

ftil

01-13-2013, 08:44 PM

[COLOR="#B22222"]

It is probable that the patron of the work was Engelbrecht II of Nassau, who died in 1504, or his successor Henry III of Nassau-Breda, the Stadtholder or governor of several of the Habsburg provinces in the Low Countries. De Beatis wrote in his travel journal that "there are some panels on which bizarre things have been painted. They represent seas, skies, woods, meadows, and many other things, such as people crawling out of a shell, others that bring forth birds, men and women, white and blacks doing all sorts of different activities and poses.

Well, we will never know. Fraenger has changed his mind after publishing his book and claimed that the triptych was commissioned by the grand master Jacob van Almaengien, a Jew baptized in Hertogenbosch in 1946 in the presence of Philip the Fair, duke of Burgundy.

But Bosch got too much of my attention. :lol:

ftil

01-14-2013, 06:19 AM

St.Luke, I must say it again that your posts are a great source of inspiration.

I did some research about Karen King, a professor of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School.

Karen L. King has been cracking the codes of early Christianity for more than 20 years. Two of her recent books on religious figures have been particularly controversial. The Gospel of Mary of Magdala: Jesus and the First Woman Apostle “portrays Mary Magdalene as an important apostle after the resurrection,” King explains. Her other book, What is Gnosticism?, targets a more academic audience.

King deals with many of the same ideas as Da Vinci Code. But she brushes aside comparisons between herself and the novel’s fictional Harvard symbologist, Robert Langdon. The scholar and self-described feminist says the closest field to Langdon’s nonexistent field of symbology would be semiology, a field unrepresented at Harvard.
http://www.thecrimson.harvard.edu/article/2004/2/12/ruffling-religious-feathers-long-before-dan/

Anyway, I didn’t know that by Karen King unveiled a small, torn papyrus that has eight incomplete lines of Coptic script. King, who received the fragment from an unnamed private collector, says it is a fourth-century CE codex. Nothing is known about the circumstances of its discovery except that it may have been excavated from an area in Upper Egypt.

Is a scrap of papyrus suggesting that Jesus had a wife authentic?

Scholars on Wednesday questioned the much-publicized discovery by a Harvard scholar that a 4th century fragment of papyrus provided the first evidence that some early Christians believed Jesus was married.

And experts in the illicit antiquities trade also wondered about the motive of the fragment's anonymous owner, noting that the document's value has likely increased amid the publicity of the still-unproven find.

Karen King, a professor of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School, announced the finding Tuesday at an international congress on Coptic studies in Rome. The text, written in Coptic and probably translated from a 2nd century Greek text, contains a dialogue in which Jesus refers to "my wife," whom he identifies as Mary.

King's paper, and the front-page attention it received in some U.S. newspapers that got advance word about it, was a hot topic of conversation Wednesday at the conference.

Christian tradition has long held that Jesus was unmarried, although there is no reliable historical evidence to support that, King said. Any evidence pointing to whether Jesus was married or had a female disciple could have ripple effects in current debates over the role of women in the church.

Stephen Emmel, a professor of Coptology at the University of Muenster who was on the international advisory panel that reviewed the 2006 discovery of the Gospel of Judas, said the text accurately quotes Jesus as saying "my wife." But he questioned whether the document was authentic.

"There's something about this fragment in its appearance and also in the grammar of the Coptic that strikes me as being not completely convincing somehow," he said in an interview on the sidelines of the conference.

Another participant at the congress, Alin Suciu, a papyrologist at the University of Hamburg, was more blunt.
"I would say it's a forgery. The script doesn't look authentic" when compared to other samples of Coptic papyrus script dated to the 4th century, he said.

King acknowledged Wednesday that questions remain about the fragment, and she welcomed the feedback from her colleagues. She said she planned to subject the document to ink tests to determine if the chemical components match those used in antiquity.

"We still have some work to do, testing the ink and so on and so forth, but what is exciting about this fragment is that it's the first case we have of Christians claiming that Jesus had a wife," she said.

She stressed that the text, assuming it's authentic, doesn't provide any historical evidence that Jesus was actually married, only that some two centuries after he died, some early Christians believed he had a wife.

Wolf-Peter Funk, a noted Coptic linguist, said there was no way to evaluate the significance of the fragment because it has no context. It's a partial text and tiny, measuring 4 centimeters by 8 centimeters (1.5 inches by 3 inches), about the size of a small cellphone.

"There are thousands of scraps of papyrus where you find crazy things," said Funk, co-director of a project editing the Nag Hammadi Coptic library at Laval University in Quebec. "It can be anything."
He, too, doubted the authenticity, saying the form of the fragment was "suspicious."

Ancient papyrus fragments have been frequently cut up by unscrupulous antiquities dealers seeking to make more money.

An anonymous collector brought King the fragment in December 2011, seeking her help in translating and understanding it. In March, she brought it to two papyrologists who determined it was very likely authentic.

On Tuesday, Harvard Divinity School announced the finding to great fanfare and said King's paper would be published in January's Harvard Theological Review. Harvard said the fragment most likely came from Egypt, and that its earliest documentation is from the early 1980s indicating that a now-deceased professor in Germany thought it evidence of a possible marriage of Jesus.

Some archaeologists were quick to question Harvard's ethics, noting that the fragment has no known provenance, or history of where it's been, and that its current owner may have a financial interest in the publicity being generated about it.

King has said the owner wants to sell his collection to Harvard.

"There are all sorts of really dodgy things about this," said David Gill, professor of archaeological heritage at University Campus Suffolk and author of the Looting Matters blog, which closely follows the illicit trade in antiquities. "This looks to me as if any sensible, responsible academic would keep their distance from it."

He cited the ongoing debate in academia over publishing articles about possibly dubiously obtained antiquities, thus potentially fueling the illicit market.

The Archaeological Institute of America, for example, won't publish articles in its journal announcing the discovery of antiquities without a proven provenance that were acquired after a UNESCO convention fighting the illicit trade went into effect in 1973.

Similarly, many American museums have adopted policies to no longer acquire antiquities without a provenance, after being slapped with successful efforts by countries like Italy to reclaim looted treasures.

Archaeologists also complain that the looting of antiquities removes them from their historical context, depriving scholars of a wealth of information.

However, AnneMarie Luijendijk, the Princeton University expert whom King consulted to authenticate the papyrus, said the fragment fit all the rules and criteria established by the International Association of Papyrologists. She noted that papyrus fragments frequently don't have a provenance, simply because so many were removed from Egypt before such issues were of concern.

She acknowledged the dilemma about buying such antiquities but said refraining from publishing articles about them is another matter.

"You wouldn't let an important new text go to waste," she said.

Hany Sadak, the director general of the Coptic Museum in Cairo, said the fragment's existence was unknown to Egypt's antiquities authorities until news articles this week.

"I personally think, as a researcher, that the paper is not authentic because it was, if it had been in Egypt before, we would have known of it and we would have heard of it before it left Egypt," he said.
http://www.necn.com/09/19/12/Harvard-claim-of-Jesus-Wife-papyrus-scru/landing_nation.html?&apID=6b879ccfd69840feafc473d237b15a45

A gospel or gospel-fragment might be regarded as “fake” whether its author belongs to the ancient or
the modern world. In both cases, the aim would be to persuade as many readers as possible to take the
new text seriously – as a window onto unknown aspects of Jesus’ life, or how it was perceived by his
later followers. In her thorough and helpful analysis of the text that is coming to be known as the
Gospel of Jesus’ Wife (GJW), Karen King rightly points out that new items of information about the
historical Jesus are not to be expected from it.

It can though provide valuable insights into early Christian debates about sexuality and gender. At least, it can do so if it is “genuine”, genuinely old. King admits to initial scepticism, but is now convinced that this papyrus fragment derives from a fourth century copy of a second century text.

I shall argue here that scepticism is exactly the right attitude. The text has been constructed out of small pieces – words or phrases – culled from the Coptic Gospel of Thomas (GTh), especially Sayings 30, 45, 101 and 114, and set in new contexts. This is most probably the compositional procedure of a modern author who is not a native speaker of Coptic.
http://markgoodacre.org/Watson.pdf

The bottom line is that there are a number of uncertainties about this text—its date, the text itself, its relationship to other texts of the period, and of course its authenticity. All these issues are—and should be—a matter of debate. At least two great Coptic scholars, Luijendijk of Princeton and Bagnell of NYU, regard the text as authentic, dating to the fourth century. So there are two sides (at least) to the authenticity debate.

What is wrong, however, is for the Harvard Theological Review to suspend publication because of the dispute about authenticity. Dispute is the life of scholarship. It is to be welcomed, not fled from. When a professor at the Harvard Divinity School, backed up by two experts from Princeton and NYU who declare the text to be authentic, presents the case—and tentatively at that—that should be enough for HTR to publish King’s article, not to cowardly suspend its decision to publish. Instead, HTR has cringed because there will now be a dispute as to authenticity. This is shameful.

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/is-the-harvard-theological-review-a-coward-or-did-dr-karen-king-do-something-wrong/

I have to do more study about Gnosticism…..but not from Karen King’s books. That’s for sure. :lol:

stlukesguild

01-15-2013, 11:24 PM

Michelangelo Buonarotti:

When I first really started looking at Michelangelo Buonarotti's work, the restoration on the Sistine frescoes had not yet been completed, and so all the available photographs in books were of darkened, soot covered paintings. Such had Michelangelo been known, at least as a painter, for generations... centuries, even. The artist was put forth as a dark, brooding figure... a sort of Romantic hero... who had painted muscular superhuman images of mankind that were weighed down... leaden... and as lost in the shadows as the faces in Rembrandt.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8466/8384379363_6df33b45ef_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8466/8384379363_6df33b45ef.jpg)

It was thus only to be expected that the brilliance, clarity, and glowing colors that were revealed by the restoration of Michelangelo's frescoes would result in surprise... shock... even outrage. This was furthered by the bleached out appearance of the first photographs due to the use of excessive lighting. As a result of the darkened state of the frescoes, the Vatican had installed increasingly powerful lighting to view the paintings. A documentary of the actual restoration process, however, revealed just how careful the restorers were. In corner areas of the frescoes that would barely be seen the restorers would try applications of the cleaning solution for various periods of time analyzing the refuse removed until the slightest sign of paint pigment appeared establishing the time need to clean a given area. At the end of each hour, all the refuse removed from was analyzed for any possible paint pigment. Even the chief critic of the restoration, Professor James Beck, from Columbia, was forced to acknowledge that notion added by Michelangelo's hand was being removed during the process. He changed his criticism to concern for exposure of the frescoes to modern air and its pollutants. The restorers countered that allowing the frescoes to linger beneath layer upon layer of wax, soot, dirt, and varnish was likely even more damaging to the paintings.

The change in appearance of the Sistine paintings was truly amazing:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8225/8384379407_ed3c929fa5_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8225/8384379407_ed3c929fa5_b.jpg)

I worked as a research assistant for an art historian specializing in the Italian Renaissance, and she made it clear that the results of the restoration were most certainly to be expected and in line with the usual emphasis of Italian Renaissance painting (clarity of form, even lighting, strong contours, and clean bright colors) as could be seen in examples of Michelangelo's own work... such as the Doni Tondo:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8353/8385487672_7827d2bfe9_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8353/8385487672_7827d2bfe9_b.jpg)

I was immediately awed by the drawing in Michelangelo's paintings... and even more so by the drawings themselves:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8077/8385500874_336dd25eab_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8077/8385500874_336dd25eab_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8355/8384417439_22d7dbc6e4_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8355/8384417439_22d7dbc6e4_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8191/8385500824_aab8c4dd81_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8191/8385500824_aab8c4dd81_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8094/8385500770_735e528a0b_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8094/8385500770_735e528a0b_z.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8366/8384417325_724c01619d_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8366/8384417325_724c01619d_z.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8223/8385500700_2c995ccbd8_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8223/8385500700_2c995ccbd8_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8385500790_ccd83f39ef_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8385500790_ccd83f39ef_z.jpg)

Michelangelo's drawings were no mere "life drawings". A quote by Degas in Paul Valery's Degas Dance Drawing states: "Drawing is not about what you see, but rather what you can make others see." Michelangelo's drawings illuminated this idea to me well before I could have put it into words. His mastery of touch... the manner in which he knows just where to emphasize a line... or to understate something... allows the viewer to almost grasp... feel the sculptural form of the body in his or her mind's eye. As brilliant as the Sistine frescoes revealed themselves as being following the restoration, early on I recognized that the artist truly was a sculptor. Nothing mattered but the sculptural forms of the human body. The backgrounds in most of the paintings were negligible... often little more than architectural settings akin to those that might frame a work of sculpture. And if Michelangelo wasn't a sculptor... then he was a choreographer... organizing the beautiful and expressive movements of the human body as it twists and turns across the span of the Sistine Ceiling.

I cannot not look enough at Michelangelo's sculpture... the Drunken Bacchus...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8495/8385566152_8fa4dff99f_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8495/8385566152_8fa4dff99f_b.jpg)

the Pietà...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_00PkQ1-47609584.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=00PkQ1-47609584.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_michelangelo-71.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=michelangelo-71.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Michelslide5.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Michelslide5.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Michelslide6.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Michelslide6.jpg)

the Risen Christ...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_139490581fawglTpzRomeMar11585.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=139490581fawglTpzRomeMar11585.jpg)

the David...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8325/8384492875_d912bafe31_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8325/8384492875_d912bafe31_b.jpg)

the Medici Tomb figures...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8511/8384492949_743a92433a_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8511/8384492949_743a92433a_z.jpg)

the "slaves"... struggling to free themselves from the earth... from this "too too sullied flesh"...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8385593112_d9073e6394_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8385593112_d9073e6394_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8465/8384509407_bece8b009b_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8465/8384509407_bece8b009b_z.jpg)

Surely these leaden earthly beings... struggling to be free... to become as gods... virtually sum up the whole of Michelangelo's oeuvre.

And provide the visual language later employed by Rodin...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8512/8385593164_2fdb179930_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8512/8385593164_2fdb179930_z.jpg)

And then there is the Rondanini Pietà... rapidly reworked in Michelangelo's last days... and then left unfinished...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8362/8385593188_f89ba485a5_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8362/8385593188_f89ba485a5_b.jpg)

The elongated figures recall the attenuated saints on the Gothic cathedrals and the electric spirituality of El Greco... while the manner in which these figures cut through the air in an arc suggests something as far removed as the Modernism of Brancusi:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_brancusi_marblebird.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=brancusi_marblebird.jpg)

As much as I love Michelangelo's drawings and sculpture... it is ultimately the Sistine that continually speaks the most to me.

The narrative paintings on the Sistine ceiling began timidly as the artist was confronted by the vast, cavernous space and his own lack of interest in landscape or background. But soon Michelangelo grew increasingly adventurous... employing simple, bold, audacious designs:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8385652950_5852cd5f3c_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8385652950_5852cd5f3c_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8492/8384569013_61abbbd548_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8492/8384569013_61abbbd548_b.jpg)

One element that the artist begins to utilize is a multiplicity of scenes within a single frame... Adam and Eve reaching for the forbidden fruit... and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden are seen in the same image. In The Creation of the Sun and the Moon (Light and Dark)...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8474/8385676618_5c6c1e68f1_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8474/8385676618_5c6c1e68f1_b.jpg)

God swoops in toward us from the right... like a great grey-bearded Old Testament superhero... his minions blinded by his grandeur... and then he's gone... exit stage left... offering us a fleeting view of his backside.

The designs of the narrative scenes and the grouping of the figures are stunning... but at times the single figures... saints and sibyls and Old Testament prophets and "ignudi" are even more grand... their forms expanding and bursting forth from their architectural frames:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_sibyl.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=sibyl.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_20100608125919Sistine_jonah.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=20100608125919Sistine_jonah.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Isaiah-Michelangelo.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Isaiah-Michelangelo.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_14116-zechariah-michelangelo-buonarroti.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=14116-zechariah-michelangelo-buonarroti.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Ezekiel.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Ezekiel.jpg)

Perhaps the most dazzling... certainly the most beautiful... figure on the ceiling of the Sistine is the rightfully famous Libyan Sibyl:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_libyan2-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=libyan2-1.jpg)

Where Michelangelo infused a sense of movement and the passing of time within a narrative image such as The Creation of the Sun and Moon, the artist here succeeds at achieving the same within a single figure... in a manner that is almost Proto-Cubist... and yet appears wholly realistic and natural. The Sibyl is caught in the act of setting aside her reading (or prophetic writings... as evidenced by the quill in the ink jar) and stepping forth from her seat. Her big toe faces us directly as she begins to step forth. Her right leg is in profile... the foot delicately arched. Her beautiful and muscular back ("she" was modeled upon a male nude... see above) is turned to us. The pose as a whole would be virtually impossible... and yet the combination of details suggesting differing points of view... combined with the swooping curve of her glowing orange/peach/yellow robes creates the sense of the figure turning in space.

No lesson from Michelangelo was greater than this... the recognition of the value in understanding the anatomy of the human body to such an extent that one might distort this for expressive purposes... without losing a sense of "naturalism". This is something I later recognized in Titian... Rubens... and Ingres.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8087/8384570353_6bfef83829_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8087/8384570353_6bfef83829_b.jpg)

The Last Judgment, once again, brought to light the superhuman... almost superhero-like aspects of his work. Where the Sistine ceiling employed an incredible array of poses, the artist was now free from the constraints of gravity... and figures flew through the air, twirled, twisted, and summer-salted like some great aerial, acrobatic dance:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8371/8385652812_1643428627_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8371/8385652812_1643428627_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8511/8385652970_910bf562f2_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8511/8385652970_910bf562f2_b.jpg)

One element of all of the Sistine paintings that was rarely touched upon by art historians... at least at the undergrad level... was the undeniable sexuality of these images. I have long found an incredible sense of irony to the fact that the paintings decorating the private chapel of the Popes in the very heart of Christendom, exuded such eroticism... and eroticism of a homosexual nature at that.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8507/8384569125_48b84b0823_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8507/8384569125_48b84b0823_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8326/8385652848_98c3a1cba6_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8326/8385652848_98c3a1cba6_b.jpg)

More than a few Cardinals and Bishops expressed discomfort with the paintings... especially with such details as King Minos penis lunched on by a serpent of hell and the one sinner dragged to his damnation by his scrotum brutally grabbed by a demon. The painter El Greco was so outraged that he offered to paint over the whole of Michelangelo's work and offer something truly worthy of the Holy Church. Luckily, no one took him up on his offer... and his lack of respect for "El Divino" (The Divine One) led to threats by Italian artists causing him to flee to Spain.

One can only imagine how completely outrageous The Last Judgment must have originally been... when all the figures... even Christ and Mary were nude. Of course Michelangelo's defense was wholly logical: surely those rising from the dead would not be clothed? The moronic attempts of Jeff Koons and Damien Hirst to shock the middle-class art viewers are mere child's play in comparison. Unfortunately... to quiet conservative factions within the Church, the more blatant or "obscene" elements of nudity were covered up by draperies added by Michelangelo's follower, Daniele da Volterra, who subsequently became known as the "braghettone" or "britches maker".

Oh... and here is a great interactive site for viewing the Sistine:

http://blogs.utexas.edu/utsoa-deepfocus/2011/01/360-degree-views-of-the-sistine-chapel/

mona amon

01-16-2013, 01:27 AM

God swoops in toward us from the right... like a great grey-bearded Old Testament superhero... his minions blinded by his grandeur... and then he's gone... exit stage left... offering us a fleeting view of his backside. - StLukes

I just cannot help thinking of this picture every time I read Exodus 33:23 "And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts:" :D

ftil

01-16-2013, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by stlukesguild

Undoubtedly, ftil will find some way to turn the discussion of whatever artist I explore into a discussion of Gnosticism, the Occult, and Giordano Bruno's De vinculis in genere. Funny how she doesn't post for weeks... and then the second I add a new post to this thread... Should I feel flattered... or "stalked?"

Hehehe……you have a way to make me laugh. As I said, your posts inspire me. It is not my fault that it leads me to occult or Gnosticism. Blame yourself. :lol:

Second, I don’t respond, if I don’t feel inspired. Life is too short and the list of books I want to read is quite long.

Finally, the choice is yours whether you want to feel…… flattered or stalked. :wink5:

Don’t forget that it is only a forum. I personally don’t care about virtual reality….but I like to be inspired.

BTW, I have noticed that when you post nudity, you stop using Thumbnails. You have also changed to a larger image of Bosch's paintings. How I can't be tempted to talk about Bruno then. :ihih:

miyako73

01-16-2013, 03:41 AM

ftil

01-16-2013, 04:11 AM

I can't find the website with Sistine chapel. Too bad that I didn't save it. The viewer could see any detail in paintings.

A few other websites.

http://triggerpit.com/2010/11/21/sistine-chapel-incredible-christian-art-walk-through/

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/rome-sistine-chapel-photos/

Corona

01-16-2013, 02:16 PM

I'm really intered in Michelangelo and I'm sure he has been the greatest master of the Reinassence in a time where the likes of Titian, Raffaello or Leonardo were around. His greatness was such that whereas he's still remembered as the central artist of the Rinascimental art and tought, in his later days he went even beyond that, anticipating the "horror vacui" of the Baroque-period, especially in his last sculptures. What a shame I didn't manage to see the Sistine Chapel, yet.

What do you guys think about Grunewald? I have recently been approaching to his paintings and I must say he's quite impressive.
8599

The way he works on symbols, the grotesque use of metaphors, the impressivness of the painting...

ftil

01-16-2013, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Corona
What do you guys think about Grunewald? I have recently been approaching to his paintings and I must say he's quite impressive.

Thanks for posting. I didn't know his art.

An intriguing painting of the Isenheim Altarpiece.

"Isenheim Altarpiece - Concert of Angels and Nativity"

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Grunewald_Isenheim2.jpg

And details. I am wondering who is the lady with a crown. :ihih:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mathis_Gothart_Gr%C3%BCnewald_038.jpg

God as Emperor?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mathis_Gothart_Gr%C3%BCnewald_039.jpg

Like Charles I, Founder of the Holy Roman Empire.

Albrecht Dürer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charlemagne-by-Durer.jpg

In the Bibliothèque Nationale de France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_Ier_le_Grand_ou_Charlemagne.jpg

The Resurrection

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Matthias_Gr%C3%BCnewald_-_The_Resurrection_(detail)_-_WGA10755.jpg

It reminds me about Michelangelo's Last Judgement

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/rome-sistine-chapel-photos/slides/last-judgment-christ-wga

A few details from Temptation of Saint Anthony

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Temptation_of_Saint_Anthony_%28Gr%C3%BCnewald%29%2 C_detail.jpg/800px-Temptation_of_Saint_Anthony_%28Gr%C3%BCnewald%29%2 C_detail.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Matthias_Gr%C3%BCnewald_-_The_Temptation_of_St_Anthony_(detail)_-_WGA10770.jpg

Cioran

01-16-2013, 03:53 PM

Unfortunately, the "Ignore" function does not work if one views the thread without logging in. :incazzato:

Great work, stlukesguild. Michelangelo, :nod: It seems that God, in reaching out to touch Adam, is inside a human brain.

For all your good work, you get ... an occultist stalker, and someone who knows nothing about art but views the whole world through the prism of feminist post-Marxism or some such BS, evidently surreally oblivious to the fact that viewing the world through her chosen ism-prism is as dumb as viewing it through the ism-prism of Old Dead White Men ... her antipathy to the latter no doubt inspiring her tantrum at my invocation of Shakespeare.

Anyway, good luck. I know a lot about art too, having both made it and written extensively about it. But post here?

No. This place has the usual Internet disease. Message boards attract anonymous abusers.

stlukesguild

01-16-2013, 04:39 PM

I'm sorry, St. Luke. Allow me to be real. I hate joining the parade without really enjoying the revelry. Considering all the artists that have influenced you, I expect better. Your artworks are not really that impressive. They are forgettable. Again, I apologize for my honesty.

Michelangelo is a virtually unrivaled figure in the history of painting... one of the top nominees for the title of "The Greatest Artist Ever" if we could confer such a title. I have absolutely no illusions of comparing my work with that of Michelangelo or any of the masters from art history that I have posted.

I'm sorry you find my work unimpressive and forgettable... but you negative opinion is not really something that I will likely lose sleep over.

What do you guys think about Grunewald? I have recently been approaching to his paintings and I must say he's quite impressive.

Matthias Grünewald is an incredible painter. The Eisenheim Altarpiece is an incredible work of early German Expressionism. There are many links between Grünewald's work and Bosch's painting of the Temptation of St. Anthony. Grünewald's painting was created for the Monastery of St. Anthony in Isenheim near Colmar, which specialized in hospital work. The Antonine monks of the monastery were noted for their care of plague sufferers as well as their treatment of skin diseases, such as ergotism. The image of the crucified Christ is pitted with open wounds and plague-like sores, his flesh grown gangrenous, showing patients that Jesus understood and shared their afflictions and their sufferings.

miyako73

01-16-2013, 04:55 PM

Yeah, A third-world painter named Roland Ventura sold the painting below for 1.1 million dollars at Sotheby's:

8603

Even before he went international, I had already followed his art exhibits. Not bad for someone dumb in arts ha? Now compare your works to his. I see more classical influences in his works than in yours that are supposedly influenced by European masters. Influenced my foot!

You boast like you're really a well-known artist. Sorry for bursting your fantasy bubble.

ftil

01-16-2013, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by stlukesguild
Matthias Grünewald is an incredible painter. The Eisenheim Altarpiece is an incredible work of early German Expressionism. There are many links between Grünewald's work and Bosch's painting of the Temptation of St. Anthony. Grünewald's painting was created for the Monastery of St. Anthony in Isenheim near Colmar, which specialized in hospital work. The Antonine monks of the monastery were noted for their care of plague sufferers as well as their treatment of skin diseases, such as ergotism. The image of the crucified Christ is pitted with open wounds and plague-like sores, his flesh grown gangrenous, showing patients that Jesus understood and shared their afflictions and their sufferings.

I agree but why did you say that it is a work of early Expressionism. I would never make that association. :confused5:

The image of the crucified Christ is pitted with open wounds and plague-like sores, his flesh grown gangrenous, showing patients that Jesus understood and shared their afflictions and their sufferings.

I would strongly argue that but I will keep for myself what I think. :lol:

BTW, you have acknowledged my humble presence here by noticing that I haven't been posting for weeks but you have forgotten to acknowledge a few members who have disappeared but have showed up immediately.......... as soon as I made a post. :ihih:

Corona

01-16-2013, 05:12 PM

Thanks to ftil for the links!
I agree on the parallel between Bosch and Grunewald, I'm quite interested in Bosch, as wells; the latter is unparalled when it comes to density of simbolism and majesty. I cannot think of many works denser than his trypthics, and I believe his artworks to be some of the most complex in the western art.
As I'm beginning to study Michelangelo's works I'm slowly finding out the magnitude of his greatness; one could argue there have been some painters on the same tier as him, some more suggestive, some other more human, but noone ever came close to him in epicness.

JCamilo

01-16-2013, 05:29 PM

Michelangelo is the guy. Even his poetry is good. The the Sistine may be "it". What justify all humankind.

Now, it is funny you talk about Michelangelo and that you liked comic books, because I cannot imagine something more legitimate to claim his influence than the godlike representations of humans that build Superman, Batman, etc. And like the Sistine, they have strong narrative elements usuing visual arts. A bit like medieval imaginery in churches was meant to complement the oral intervation of the priests (or maybe, to be the completed by it), since most people could not read, but could follow the stories with the images.

Sistine has everything, from any point of view, the artist, the history of creation, the theme, the easter eggs spreads by the never conformist michelangelo, the multiple meanings, the political power, the latter history... and most people will think only about adam and god, not imagining it basically rebuilds the creation of the entire universe.

First time i was teaching in class, when i show a slide of Sistine for the first time, a lighting bolt just strucks. So, Micheangelo is the only rational argument for God.

Corona

01-16-2013, 05:56 PM

Yeah, I've not been within his poetry a lot, but from what I've read I can confirm he was pretty much a great artist in every artistic field, not to mention he's my favourite sculptor, after Bernini. As for the Sistine I've not experienced a sightseeing to it so I can't tell HOW MUCH it's epic: everyone said it's a whole different experience from everything else.
I can tell Raffaello Sanzio's vision may be preferable as it still seems even "purer" but my opinion is that appreciating his style is more difficult for modern viewers: I'm not to generalize neither I want to simplify the concept of beauty, but I guess that we're not accostumed to traditional beauty, we need to "refine" our tastes to fully get some artists. That, of course, can be said about every great artist worth the time!
In Michelangelo's case, however, it's easier as he was "epic" in every sense: we can both feel the anxiety for deity, the greatness of human nature and foresee the despair, the angst of nothingness, the perfection of the body and the decay of the meat, like in his Last Judgment, one of the monumental pieces of art.

Paulclem

01-16-2013, 06:23 PM

First time i was teaching in class, when i show a slide of Sistine for the first time, a lighting bolt just strucks. So, Micheangelo is the only rational argument for God.

I bet that freaked you out a bit. :biggrin5:

stlukesguild

01-16-2013, 08:08 PM

Yeah, A third-world painter named Roland Ventura sold the painting below for 1.1 million dollars at Sotheby's:

Most intelligent individuals... especially those who model themselves as pseudo-Marxists... understand that money is no measure of artistic measure, otherwise J.K. Rowling would be the unchallenged greatest living writer. This little idiot painter, for example...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_art-artist-famous-smile-yue-minjun-008.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=art-artist-famous-smile-yue-minjun-008.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_china-art_672421n.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=china-art_672421n.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_yue_minjun.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=yue_minjun.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_YueMinjun_Kungfu_Lithograph_58Editions_2006-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=YueMinjun_Kungfu_Lithograph_58Editions_200 6-1.jpg)

... recently saw one of his paintings sell for $4.47 Million US.

Even before he went international, I had already followed his art exhibits. Not bad for someone dumb in arts ha? Now compare your works to his. I see more classical influences in his works than in yours that are supposedly influenced by European masters. Influenced my foot!

Not many "classical" references that I recognize... as if references were the measure of art. Almost all artists build upon earlier artists. It appears to me that Mr. Ventura is building far more on popular culture and American Pop Art... undoubtedly newly arrived in the third world 15 years after the fact:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8213/8387267749_51e9528c94_m.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8213/8387267749_51e9528c94_z.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8221/8387267609_e39e2f4024_m.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8221/8387267609_e39e2f4024_b.jpg)

Honestly, he doesn't do much of anything for me. He's not bad, but neither is he great. And he most certainly will not earn any serious place in the history of art. That you like him is neither here nor there. You have also expressed an admiration for crap art like this:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8370/8388371468_ac29cc8beb_m.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8370/8388371468_ac29cc8beb.jpg)

and mediocre twaddle such as this...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_5834_307004m.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=5834_307004m.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_c1369.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=c1369.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_c1389.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=c1389.jpg)

You boast like you're really a well-known artist. Sorry for bursting your fantasy bubble.

Where have I boasted? To suggest that I have been influenced by this or that artist is not to suggest that I see myself as a peer or equal... its not to make a value judgment at all. As I already stated, I have no illusions of comparing my work to Michelangelo or any of the artists I have posted... all of whom have clearly earned their places in art history.

Again, I'm sorry you don't like my work, but I'll try not to be too depressed over the fact.

ftil

01-16-2013, 08:29 PM

and mediocre twaddle such as this...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_c1369.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view¤t=c1369.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_c1389.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view¤t=c1389.jpg)

Oh, come on. You should get used to criticism. There always will be people who will criticize us……no matter what.

BTW, I didn’t know Fernando Amorsolo y Cueto. You may say “mediocre twaddle".

Fernando Amorsolo y Cueto (May 30, 1892 – April 24, 1972) is one of the most important artists in the history of painting in the Philippines.[1] Amorsolo was a portraitist and painter of rural Philippine landscapes. He is popularly known for his craftsmanship and mastery in the use of light. Born in Paco, Manila, he earned a degree from the Liceo de Manila Art School in 1909
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Amorsolo

I don’t want to sound sarcastic but you are not in Wikipedia that says that you are the most important in the history of American art. Get over it…….and keep posting. :wink5:

stlukesguild

01-16-2013, 08:36 PM

I agree but why did you say that it is a work of early Expressionism. I would never make that association.

Expressionism distorts forms and colors for expressive purposes. Romanesque and Gothic art, Rogier van der Weyden, Mannerism, Grünewald, etc... are generally seen as falling within the Expressionist strain... and all were influential upon later Expressionists whether we are speaking of Van Gogh, Edvard Munch, Egon Schiele, the German Expressionists of Die Brücke, Der Blaue Reiter, the Neue Sachlichkeit, or even other European Modernist "Expressionists" such as Georges Rouault, Chaim Soutine, and even Francis Bacon.

Many Modernists such as Emil Nolde...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_emil-nolde-crucifixion-1912.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=emil-nolde-crucifixion-1912.jpg)

and Max Beckmann...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8188/8387327755_59578d0ca6_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8188/8387327755_59578d0ca6_z.jpg)

... openly admitted to building upon Grünewald for the simple reason that his portrayal of the Crucifixion was among the most powerfully expressive of the element of suffering... something that many of the German artists of the early 20th century knew intimately as a result of their experiences in the trenches of WWI followed by the political chaos, instability, and grinding poverty following the war.

These same artists were also inspired by the raw... even crude images of Christ found in medieval wood carvings and altarpieces:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_1851.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=1851.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_11187306_p.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=11187306_p.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_PA110249-01.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=PA110249-01.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_pieta_sculpture_hi.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=pieta_sculpture_hi.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_tumblr_lpipy6b0jm1qcdz59o1_500.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=tumblr_lpipy6b0jm1qcdz59o1_500.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_tumblr_mgjrg1E5sl1qedpp2o1_500.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=tumblr_mgjrg1E5sl1qedpp2o1_500.jpg)

Gilliatt Gurgle

01-16-2013, 09:04 PM

Sorry, looks like I'm behind by a couple days.

I just cannot help thinking of this picture every time I read Exodus 33:23 "And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts:" :D

Michelangelo is the guy. Even his poetry is good. The the Sistine may be "it". What justify all humankind....

...First time i was teaching in class, when i show a slide of Sistine for the first time, a lighting bolt just strucks. So, Micheangelo is the only rational argument for God.

“Creation of the Sun and Moon”
The etymology of “mooning” begins with Michelangelo

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Paintings%20Drawings%20and%20Sculpture/th_SistineChapelEnvelope.jpg (http://s963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Paintings%20Drawings%20and%20Sculpture/?action=view&current=SistineChapelEnvelope.jpg)

^From my stamp collection; a special issue envelope I picked up in Rome, commemorating the restoration of the Sistine Chapel.

He also dabbled in Architecture. Examples of Michelangelo’s architectural contributions include Saint Peters Basilica, Laurentian Library, Capitoline Hill, Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, Medici Chapel

Piazza del Campidoglio and Palazzo del Senatore 1988:

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/th_1820820-R02-175.jpg (http://s963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/?action=view&current=1820820-R02-175.jpg)

Saint Peters Basillica (1988):

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/th_1820820-R02-172.jpg (http://s963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/?action=view&current=1820820-R02-172.jpg)

ftil

01-16-2013, 09:09 PM

Corona

01-16-2013, 09:39 PM

Yeah, El Greco was as relevant for expressionism as he was for the likes of Picasso.
I have to admit I've not been through El Greco's work a lot, so far, but what's really amazing about his artworks is that he was one of the first painters to represent spiritual "tension", to "make visible what's not visible".
So in a way an ideal comparison with the Expressionist painters is far from inadequate, if we obviously keep the context aside.

stlukesguild

01-16-2013, 10:12 PM

I know that expressionism distorts forms and colors but I would never compare Grunewald’s paintings with Expressionists as I looked at his paintings.

Many artists and art historians have made this connection.

El Greco is regarded as a precursor of Expressionism.

Yes... he is. And you'll note that I included the Mannerists and El Greco would fall under that category. On the other hand, El Greco probably didn't have a huge impact on artists outside of Spain & Picasso for the simple reason that the vast majority of his paintings are housed in Spain and somewhat inaccessible to artists in France or Germany and Spain wasn't much of a destination for artists from outside in the 19th or 20th centuries. Oddly enough, Manet did make a tour of Spain and was quite impressed with his work... as well as with that of Velazquez (which is more obvious).

I was able to see a large portion of El Greco's oeuvre as part of a retrospective shown at the Met some years back. The best paintings do indeed have a sense of a tormented spirituality. The worst paintings, however, have something of black velvet paintings about them. I loved his flickering brushwork... but was disappointed in his use of color. He was an even worst colorist than his teacher, Tintoretto.

While we're on Spain... we might point out that Goya was another precursor of Expressionism:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8475/8388631412_f79a582cbf_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8475/8388631412_f79a582cbf_b.jpg)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8323/8387543903_9b0f47f2ce_n.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8323/8387543903_9b0f47f2ce_b.jpg)

ftil

01-16-2013, 10:26 PM

Yeah, El Greco was as relevant for expressionism as he was for the likes of Picasso.
I have to admit I've not been through El Greco's work a lot, so far, but what's really amazing about his artworks is that he was one of the first painters to represent spiritual "tension", to "make visible what's not visible".

An interesting way to summarize his art. There is some anxiety but I don’t know the source of it.
There is also an interesting symbolism…..

miyako73

01-17-2013, 02:18 AM

Oh, St. Luke, I don't blame you. You're an art history reader not an art historian who engages in research. You called Fernando Amorsolo's works "mediocre twaddle"? Do you know what "twaddle" is? I thought you were an English language expert. Anyway, for your education, read this:

"The artist became a professor in his early 20’s and was already establishing himself in the art world. At the age of 25, he was already married to Salud Jorge and had a daughter, Virginia, when he caught the eye of one of the most influential figures in Filipino society. Amorsolo had designed the logo for Ginebra San Miguel, still in use in its original form today, depicting St. Michael vanquishing the devil. The owner of the beverage company, Don Enrique Zobel, a leading figure in the business community and an ardent patron of the arts, was so impressed by his work that he offered to send Amorsolo to the Academia de San Fernando in Madrid for further studies with a generous stipend for himself and his young family. The artist took the standard entrance exam at the Academia. To Amorsolo’s surprise, after evaluating his work, the school informed him that, based on the results, they would accept him not as a student but as a professor at the school."

http://www.fernandocamorsolo.com/

In case you don't know about Academia de San Fernando, that was the same art school Goya ran as its director and where Picasso and Dali went.

If you really read my post and understood it, you would not imply that I liked his works. Even though he was a national artist in my country, I find his works too bucolic and pastoral for my taste. I mentioned his works to show that he already mixed Realism and Impressionism way before Coombs did.

Amorsolo

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8217/8387989083_32c4a06e4b_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8219/8390585118_85dee38ecd_m.jpg

Coombs

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8502/8389081308_c8802cce36_m.jpg

Also, Sotheby's and Christie's know Amorsolo. I don't think they know about you and your works.

miyako73

01-17-2013, 04:11 AM

You're really funny, St. Luke. You chose Ventura's hyperrealist paintings infused with pop art images so you could dismiss him as an artist and insult our art history by saying pop art, an art movement that began in the mid 50's, came late in the Philippine art scene. Pleaseeeeeee.

Filipino artists who were educated in Britain and America went back to the Philippines and did pop art from 60's to 80's. Pop art in my country did not really start in the 60's.

If what Livingstone, de la Croix, and Tansey say about pop art are true, pop art had been made in my country way before Andy Warhol was born.

"In Pop art, material is sometimes visually removed from its known context, isolated, and/or combined with unrelated material."

"The concept of pop art refers not as much to the art itself as to the attitudes that led to it"

"Pop art is aimed to employ images of popular as opposed to elitist culture in art, emphasizing the banal or kitschy elements of any given culture, most often through the use of irony."

Yes, I used Wikipedia and these statements were bibliographically cited.

Livingstone, M., Pop Art: A Continuing History, New York: Harry N. Abrams, Inc., 1990
de la Croix, H.; Tansey, R., Gardner's Art Through the Ages, New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc., 1980.

In 1920's, Amorsolo already popularized this image:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8475/8389192806_359c0a1058_m.jpg

Warhol (1960's)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8081/8388132883_ddc99317d6_m.jpg

In 1930's, the formative years of Philippine cinema, movie billboards like these were already made:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8089/8389199510_04ab5039ab_m.jpg

In 1940's, comics magazines with popular covers were already mass-produced:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8187/8388120697_b9f1bcbd79_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8468/8388125907_c8ff30c566_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8188/8388126985_f5d5bcdfe2_m.jpg

In 1950's, Filipino pop artists painted the surplus jeeps of the Americans after the Second World War to be used as public transportation:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8335/8389227368_d9c8a156a9_m.jpg

Have I educated you enough?

Now let's go to the the works of Ventura that you excluded:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8236/8388054913_bcbbd7e057_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8515/8389143816_d534813514_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8098/8388055527_71b2674efa_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8222/8389144282_0b7574277b_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8073/8389144618_8f6bb6361a_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8215/8389144848_bd80e59b4a_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8470/8389148510_eb62f9dc6a_m.jpg

If you don't see classical influences like Michelangelo's David and Da Vinci's human anatomy and horses, you are blind. I also see Dada images in his works and Dali's influences too.

Now let me post the works of an artist who has been influenced by Michelangelo, Dali, Bosch, Rubens, Brueghel, and other BS:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8355/8388168101_13fa7cd66c_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8375/8389257352_e912dc7d17_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8515/8388168357_f48deee91e_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8329/8388168469_c219ce04a0_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8087/8389257698_29b6f05a1e_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8095/8389257832_875d93e5bc_m.jpg

Really? Maybe you're an art history professor. But a painter and painting professor? Really?

Pierre Menard

01-17-2013, 05:11 AM

Miyako, did it occur to you that you may be able to have a genuine conversation with Stlukes that leads to greater understanding of his influences if you weren't so petty, immature and more concerned with degrading his work than actually talking like a proper human being?

Also, you have an odd understanding of influence. Influence isn't just using elements of previous artists work in your work. Some influences influence you more in such a way as:
-These artists furthered my understanding of the medium
- These artists are the ones that made me take the medium seriously
- These artists inspired me to create my own works of art
- With a great love and understanding of certain art that has come before me, I can use that understanding to create something different, much in the same way that a Romanticist poet can be influenced by a Classicist, but uses their understanding of Classicism to more clearly define and push their own boundaries in new directions.

I'm sure not every single painter StLukes loves and is 'influenced' by has a clear visual 'influence' on his own work, but I'll go out on a limb and say that StLukes understanding and love for all the artists he's mentioned has, over his life, helped him achieve his own artistic vision, if you like (correct me if I'm wrong Stlukes).

Much in the same way that Walt Whitman influenced more than any other poet my love for poetry. But that doesn't mean if I became a poet I'd write like Walt Whitman, however, he'd still be a major influence.

Cut out the pettiness, it's ridiculous.

ftil

01-17-2013, 05:28 AM

While we're on Spain... we might point out that Goya was another precursor of Expressionism:

Since you have brought Goya......He had strange attraction to witches....

Witches Sabbath

http://www.franciscodegoya.net/Witches%27-Sabbath-large.html

Witches In The Air

http://www.franciscodegoya.net/Witches-In-The-Air-large.html

The Bewitched Man

http://www.franciscodegoya.net/The-Bewitched-Man-large.html

The Conjuration

http://www.franciscodegoya.net/The-Conjuration-large.html

Witches Sabbath, The Great He-Goat

http://www.franciscodegoya.net/The-Great-He-Goat-large.html

A special gift for you. :wink5:

Nude Maja

http://www.franciscodegoya.net/Nude-Maja-large.html

The complete works

http://www.franciscodegoya.net/the-complete-works.html

miyako73

01-17-2013, 05:29 AM

If St. Luke is honest, he'll tell you what he deleted. Didn't he say in one of his posts that these artists have influenced his works? You won't see it because it has been edited out.

If I did not see the disconnect, I would not have reacted.

Corona

01-17-2013, 06:03 AM

I agree with St.Luke about Goya: the anxiety in his works seems to anticipate some of the 20th century's artworks, especially considering his works are impenetrable so one can't just focus on symbols. You have posted his Coloussus: well, it's nearly impossible to give a single interpretation of the meaning. One could argue it's a prophecy of humanity being crushed, or a comment on humanity being small and defenseless(in another painting about the same theme we see a giant elevating far beyond a city)but the artist's point of view remains unknown.
This could be applied to all of his "Black Paintings": "El Perro"(The Dog) is maybe his most impervious work, being impossible to be deciphered, so "angst" is a possible approach to partially getting Goya's art.

8606

The anguish coming from Goya's last paintings comes from the fact these works seems illogical, not explainable by reason, and yet they all seem to focus on "disgusting" themes like Saturn devouring his sons, a witches' sabba, peasants fighting to death, a dog being buried by sand, etc. The fact is that we don't know what does Goya indicate as the source of suffering, of evil: every creature, a man as much as a dog has to suffer from an unknown source of evil, and the only thing Goya seems to focus on in his last paintings is the "low" nature of the human soul. It's a given a painting as his Saturn explores unexplored territories, the dark side of the human soul. Before that just some artists as Bosch or Brueghel had depicted the horror of the human soul, in the case concentring on a more religious matter, specifically on the decaying nature of sin. In Goya's last works even religion seems to be left outside of that.
Human souls is an undiscovered frightening abyss.

As for El Greco I guess the tension coming from his works is still a spiritual one, so that of spirits "extending" high.

ftil

01-17-2013, 06:28 AM

Corona

01-17-2013, 06:49 AM

That's an interesting and complicated matter!
I don't think there's a "necessary" approach to art; as art itself stands as impossible to be defined it's difficult estabilishing how one should generally approach art. From my point of view it's easier approaching a single artist, trying to estabilish his own poetics for how much we can understand an artist who lived centuries ago.
I think it's still different from a full "interpretation": I think an interpratation has not to be mistaken for a "study" of an artist's poetics.
It's a difficult topic since everything related to art cannot be universally defined, but I'd say it's not necessary interpretating a work, but it's still advantageous trying to "understand" an artist to fully appreciate his art. This should lead to a kind of equilibrium; whether it's true art speaks for itself one can still try to "decipher" the emotions a single artwork involves the viewer/listener/reader.
What I'm saying, to put it straight, is that "studying" and interpretating an artist doesn't necessarily ruin the purity of his art or the fruition, as long as one doesn't exaggerate on interpretation because, of course, it's still art you're viewing, not an essay! If one doesn't just focus on explainations I think studying an artist - his tecnhinque, the use of symbols, the possible meanings he wanted to give - could even help enjoying his art more.
I would definitely say it depends on both the viewer's point of view and method and on the single artist. Interpretating a painting a painting by Salvador Dalì or René Magritte would be partially missing the point, especially in the case of Magritte. In my humble opinion for an artist like Bosch it would be all but misleading trying to "decipher" his symbolism as the artist was probably trying to express something.
One just has not to exceed or it would reduce the pleasure of simply appreciating the work in itself.
Sometimes "interpretating" a work, especially when you're not an art historian, it's just explaining your own feelings giving them a proper "arrangement".

Once again, it's a very complicated topic!

ftil

01-17-2013, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Corona
Sometimes "interpretating" a work, especially when you're not an art historian, it's just explaining your own feelings giving them a proper "arrangement".

Of course, it is own opinion of a viewer. How it is different from the art historian? Take, for example, another field of mythology and religion. By the middle of the nineteenth century, mythology was dominated by a comparative mythology, an analysis of myth that takes place in libraries rather than in the field. What soon emerged were various approaches to the study of myth driven by new discoveries and theories within such emergent disciplines as anthropology, psychology, literary criticism, and the history of religions. So, another theory emerged that examined myths. In other words, the same myths but different interpretations. We may ask who is right or wrong. I may give another example, psychology, for instance. It started with Freud, followed by many different psychological theories that have been changing like weather. I can’t stand Freud but there are psychiatrists or psychologists who blindly follow it. Not only psychiatrists but also … art historians who are trying to use his fraudulent theory to explain art. When I have read analysis based on Freud, I was laughing, rolling on the floor.

Anyway, it is more complex than saying ‘you are not art historian” :wink5:

stlukesguild

01-17-2013, 07:36 PM

ftil

01-17-2013, 08:02 PM

I have feelings that we will see shortly the death of the thread……Gone with the wind

Vladimir Kush, Flown With the Wind

http://www.jacobgallery.com/art_gallery/limited_edition_prints/Vladimir_Kush/Vladimir_Kush-FLOWN_WITH_THE_WIND.htm

Or,

Vladimir Kush , Farewell Kiss

http://www.thefancy.com/things/293052641/Farewell-Kiss-by-Vladimir-Kush

I hope that I am wrong but the dynamic here is so bloody obvious. :biggrin5:
Sad, indeed.

miyako73

01-17-2013, 08:39 PM

The problem that miyako suffers from... well, beside that of occasionally forgetting to take her medication and certain personality issues... is what Robert Hughes termed the "cultural cringe." The "cultural cringe" is the realization that your culture is considered to be nothing more than a third-world culture which has never been taken seriously in the world of arts and literature... indeed is largely deemed as irrelevant. Like all inferiority complexes, there are those suffering from such who put forth a facade of bluster, bombast, and swaggering braggadocio that only serves to guard their sense of self esteem, feelings of inferiority... and fears that the judgments of others are true.

Art and art history is a dialog. Artists participate in this dialog on a local or regional level, a national level, and an international level. There are undoubtedly local and regional artists of great merit... who by purely formal judgments... based upon the work itself... are every bit as good as some of the biggest names in art. Unfortunately, they are not seen as part of the dialog. One can cry about the fact that such is unfair... and attempt to lay the blame on culture, nationality, race, gender, social class, etc... Ultimately, art is an elitist game. No culture owes it to another to take the "outsiders" efforts seriously or promote it over their native achievements. Earning a place within "the canon" is something that must be fought for. The Europeans... the Parisians... did not hand the title of "The Capital of the Art World" over to the Americans... to New York. It was seized. The art of Jackson Pollock, Willem deKooning, Robert Motherwell, Mark Rothko, etc... demanded attention and could not be ignored.

As it now stands, the Philippines have nothing of any real merit to add to the dialog of art history... just as Miyako has nothing of any worth whatsoever to add to this dialog... and so both will go on being rightfully ignored.

What a condescending twaddle! That is the right usage of the word.

How can I blame a person who has not read arts and transnationalism, arts and decolonization, and arts and postcolonialism where arts and artists from Asia are studied and written about by art historians and scholars from the West?

I already told you that your "cultural cringe" would never apply to the painting history of my country because the early development of Philippine painting was strongly connected to the visual arts of Spain and Europe.

Based on your view, I should celebrate because at least we have three different art histories studied in our schools: Western, Philippine, and Asian Art histories. It seems you have only studied one-- arts of the West. So limited, indeed.

Even though Filipino designers are big names now in contemporary furniture design, I do not limit my aesthetic appreciation on furniture. Even when Asian films win in prestigious festivals, I still watch good American, French, Italian movies.

Art is not a dialogue where the marginalized want to become part of the status quo. It is a cultural process that has a shared history. Just wait when Asian countries dominate; Orientalism will be redefined. A new lens will emerge.

As for me, I'll continue appreciating artists who deserve accolades like Kenneth Cobonpue (yes, he's from the "third-world"--I thought this was no longer used in development studies) who blurs the division between arts and design:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8237/8391233178_6134397a80_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8095/8391233274_695ca6bca6_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8227/8391233556_919d037b79_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8087/8391233370_d60fcc3d89_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8324/8390150831_3a270081fd_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8194/8391233660_0d9d985723_m.jpg

Now you will say Cobonpue is accepted in the West because his works are representatives of his culture and he has no "cultural cringe". Wrong. I hadn't seen furniture designs like those before I heard of his name. It just happens that designers are meticulous people. They define beauty inch by inch and their eyes for aesthetics are objective and both quantitative and qualitative.

This will give you a lesson: if fairness is the game, you'll be reading pages about a painter in Vietnam or a sculptor in Kenya. People like you want elitism in arts, so crappy artworks like yours will be considered because other better choices are shut out.

I still don't think you're a skilled, talented painter.