the importance of choice or the art of chosing?

[cacian]

This is a thread inspired from the classic being boring.
I thought long and hard about why when I look back at school and university and why I found the books I was given to read very boring.
I came to the conclusion that it was because I had no choice.
It does boil down to not being given a choice over a reason.
The other thing is I take reading as a pleasure and not as a detailed lesson on why or how a book is written. There are other things I can think of I would rather discuss or talk about.
My reasoning is that if I am able to make my own choices about becoming a writer or a poet I also have a choice over what I chose to read.
This is my decision and this is how I function.
The other issue is that I think it is up to me to decide whether a book is classic or not or worthy or not. I should be able to make these decisions on my own because it helps my personality my character develop and allows me to learn about decision making.
Decision making is important if I am to succeed as a person. Since I have many other decisions that I will need to take as one delves into the real world. I take it a book isn't and so the quicker I lift my head up and out the pages of books and the quicker I am to stand up to reality.

So if I chose a book then I should be able to chose anything else after that. I have to start somewhere.

The questions are:
a) Should one betold what to read? In other should I be told what to do?
and
b)Are books for studying or for reading only? Enjoyment is priority since life is a challenge.

There can only be one answer or one way of looking at a book and that is to read it not be challenged by it.
Living with someone is a challenge reading a book should not be.

[Charles Darnay]

There can only be one answer or one way of looking at a book. There no two ways about it.

No, no, no.

In order to not get into a tirade about your lack of ability to understand a diverse universe, I will stick to the perspective of a modern English teacher (ironically, this my procrastination from marking).

The study of English literature is centred around reading, analyzing, reflecting, and writing about books. In order for students to do this, they must be exposed to books. Now many classes do have a culminating activity in which they choose their own book)s) - but the for the sake of running a class, all students must be reading the same book - or at most, there can be two groups reading two different books - but this becomes problematic.

The books chosen are not done so because they are the teacher's favourite books, or because they are classics. Books are chosen based on their function to demonstrate strong writing, explicit themes, well-developed characters, and (we hope) a story that students will engage with. This is why Shakespeare is chosen more often than any other playwright - not because he is a Classic, but because his works are easy to engage with.

Think of it this way: unless you come from a family of readers, school is the primary place to cultivate the habit of, and potentially love of, reading. Having choice is great, but you have to know how to make that choice - you have to be exposed to different elements of books before you can make a choice. It is the same reason that wine tours have tastings - to give you a sample of what it out there so you can make a choice of which you prefer, instead of sticking to one thing, because it is what you know.

And no - there is no just one way of looking at books - books are as varied as the people reading them.

[cacian]

Many students and I have been one once do not all engage with the books chosen for them.
As a student one must be encouraged to find their own books amongst the thousands of books available. Being able to find something that is appropriate to one's mind is important. It teaches one about finding about the literature that interests them the most and encourages differences in thinking.
Chosing a book for a student is a kind of intellectual lazyness because it teaches reliance on others above us who are more read then we are. Reading the same books and learning about the same books teaches sameness of thinking and elaborating with literature. A book is a piece of information a literary reference that should reinforce likes and dislikes for example.
I should be able to pick up a book and say I don't like because and another and say I like this because. A book is not about the content only it is about how one sees what one reads.
To spend hours and on ends analsying a book I do not like does not tell me anything about my choices of reading and writing. It encourages disinterest and carelessness and can put one off one in engaging in taking the literay world.
Reading is as much about the amount of books we have read as well as the amount we have not read.The ones we do not want to read hold as much value as those we chose to read.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Seriously, cacian, when will you realize just because you see things a certain way doesn't mean others do, or should? One of my biggest pet peeves is someone who overvalues their own opinions--the classic example being the person who doesn't like a book, therefore it's a bad book. You go beyond this and extend it to everything. Everyone should read a book like you do, think about art the way you do, etc. And then, to add on to that, the ways you think people should think are often so bizarre as to not even be considerable. It's tiresome.

[cacian]

Am I detecting a sense of snobbery in this thread or is it the other thread that is the influence?
Either way there is snobbery in the air.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Are you you serious? Do you know what a snob is? A cornerstone of snobbery is overvaluing one's own opinion--i.e., thinking everyone should think exactly the way you do . . . which is EXACTLY what you do, cacian. I can recognize my faults. I realize my opinion isn't infallible. Just because I think a certain way or dislike a certain thing doesn't mean everyone else should. Get it? I seriously don't think you do, as me and other posters have wasted so much time trying to explain this to you.

[cacian]

Overvaluating an opinion is very different from telling how it is.
It is possible to suggests new ways without being told that one is wrong or right.
The point of this thread is to discuss new ways of going about literature reading and analyzing books.
I am not suggesting you do anything. I am not here to convince you or you me I am here to discuss something I think I feel is important openly and honestly . I am merely trying to outline my views and explore other new venues of going about learning.
A snob is someone who rejects anything new that is trying to be added to something that has already been established as the it.
A snob is someone who rebuffs anything that sounds different because a snob does not like changes to an already established systems of ideas.
You need not to explain to me because I understand what you are saying. I am in the system I have gone through it and I am questioning it now.
I think anyone would see this is the point of academia and intellectualism and that is to question the relevancy of what is being given to us as a matter of fact.
I am speculating about the state of academia today and I think it deserves to be put to question like anything in life for the sake of progress.

[qimissung]

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your comments.

If you are not ready to accept the fact that your opinions might be questioned by the others,

please refrain from posting in public forums.

Posts containing such remarks and off-topic posts will be removed without further notice.

[qimissung]

Many students and I have been one once do not all engage with the books chosen for them.
As a student one must be encouraged to find their own books amongst the thousands of books available. Being able to find something that is appropriate to one's mind is important. It teaches one about finding about the literature that interests them the most and encourages differences in thinking.
Chosing a book for a student is a kind of intellectual lazyness because it teaches reliance on others above us who are more read then we are. Reading the same books and learning about the same books teaches sameness of thinking and elaborating with literature. A book is a piece of information a literary reference that should reinforce likes and dislikes for example.
I should be able to pick up a book and say I don't like because and another and say I like this because. A book is not about the content only it is about how one sees what one reads.
To spend hours and on ends analsying a book I do not like does not tell me anything about my choices of reading and writing. It encourages disinterest and carelessness and can put one off one in engaging in taking the literay world.
Reading is as much about the amount of books we have read as well as the amount we have not read.The ones we do not want to read hold as much value as those we chose to read.

This still says more about you than it does the education system, Cacian. Then don't go to school. Don't grow your brain. There, done.

Because growing WILL NOT happen without change, challenge, difficulty and yes, even pain. Think about learning physics, philosophy, or another language. You can choose not to challenge yourself. If you have a job, certainly at the end of the day you want to read for pleasure, you desire escapist literature. That is a choice, nothing wrong with it. But you will not become a mature reader by doing so.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

It is possible to suggests new ways without being told that one is wrong or right.
The point of this thread is to discuss new ways of going about literature reading and analyzing books.
I am not suggesting you do anything. I am not here to convince you. . . .

Then you need to learn to better present your ideas, because you have a habit of using absolutes, i.e.:


There can only be one answer or one way of looking at a book and that is to read it not be challenged by it.
Living with someone is a challenge reading a book should not be.

As to not being able to like a book you haven't chosen to read, this isn't unusual . . . if you're still in high school. I don't know how someone can go into the field of literature and have that kind of mindset. I LOVE being made to read stuff I've never read or would otherwise not read. I may not like some of it, but I've discovered so much I wouldn't have because a teacher told me to read it. The Lais of Marie de France and The Golden Legend are just two examples, both of which I would never have read before being assigned them this semester.

As to some particulars:


Many students and I have been one once do not all engage with the books chosen for them.

Of course you're not going to connect with every book. Why would you think you would?


As a student one must be encouraged to find their own books amongst the thousands of books available.

Maybe in public school, but once you're in college, and if you're a reader, you shouldn't be "encouraged" by your instructors to seek out and read books. You should already be doing that. The instructor is there to teach you about whatever subject the class is on. If that means reading a few books you don't "engage" with, so be it, that's part of the process.


Being able to find something that is appropriate to one's mind is important.

And how will you ever grow intellectually if you decide to never deviate from what you deem "appropriate"?

It teaches one about finding about the literature that interests them the most and encourages differences in thinking.

How does only finding books you engage with, find appropriate, and ultimately enjoy encourage a difference in thinking? It does the exact opposite.


Choosing a book for a student is a kind of intellectual lazyness because it teaches reliance on others above us who are more read then we are.

Wow. Just wow. I can't even begin to understand this. All I know is that I'm glad that my professor, an expert in medieval, decided to assign me the texts I should read (two of which I mentioned above) rather than saying, "Okay, even though you're here to learn from me, rather than me choosing books and assigning them and building material around them (because that's lazy), I want you to go out and choose whatever text you want and do what you want with it." Boy, that class sure would be enlightening!


Reading the same books and learning about the same books teaches sameness of thinking and elaborating with literature.

Well, first, I think you used a wrong word there or something--I don't know what "elaborating with literature" means. As to the first part, how would being assigned books YOU'VE NEVER READ be learning about the same books? If anything, staying in your comfort zone (which is what you're simultaneously encouraging and discouraging) would be reading the same books.


A book is a piece of information a literary reference that should reinforce likes and dislikes for example.

So, a book should just reinforce what you already think, huh? Is that what you're really saying?


I should be able to pick up a book and say I don't like because and another and say I like this because. A book is not about the content only it is about how one sees what one reads.

No.


To spend hours and on ends analsying a book I do not like does not tell me anything about my choices of reading and writing. It encourages disinterest and carelessness and can put one off one in engaging in taking the literay world.

You're almost on to something here. Analyzing a book you don't like is completely different from just not reading it, though.


Reading is as much about the amount of books we have read as well as the amount we have not read.The ones we do not want to read hold as much value as those we chose to read.

This may be one of the weirdest statements I've ever read.


Overvaluating an opinion is very different from telling how it is.

Which is what you do.


It is possible to suggests new ways without being told that one is wrong or right.

Yet you do that, too.


The point of this thread is to discuss new ways of going about literature reading and analyzing books.

Really, because it reads to me your justifications for rejecting anything new and challenging.


I am not suggesting you do anything.

:lol:


I am not here to convince you or you me

:lol:


I am merely trying to outline my views and explore other new venues of going about learning.

That's great! The only problem is all you've done so far as reject the best venue of learning about new things--being "made to."


A snob is someone who rejects anything new that is trying to be added to something that has already been established as the it.

Yes . . . you do realize the irony here, right? You are the person who's been advocating only reading literature within one's comfort zones, and only reading literature that reinforced likes and dislikes.


A snob is someone who rebuffs anything that sounds different because a snob does not like changes to an already established systems of ideas.

Or someone who rejects an old way of doing things.


I look forward you your response to all of this, since you want to exchange ideas and all that.

[tonywalt]

Living with someone is a challenge

I have finally agreed with Cacian!

[Revolte]

I love old things. :(

I just do. I'm really into the steam-punk deal too. It's just so pretty, and so dark and so perfect for everything.

Woa odd, did not realize that I was into it that much.

Okay I'm sleepy...

I love studying, more then I love reading. It can take me months to read a book I love. But I will go crazy if I'm not actively learning something. Even when it doesn't matter, like in video games. The more information the better. But I can live without knowing just who Lincoln is gonna kill first, for a little while.


I don't think my answer qualifies, but I'm running on it anyway. Poor thing :/

[cacian]

I have finally agreed with Cacian!

LOL
It is true that love is a challenge because living it is the challenge. It should not be but it is.
I imagine a life where and when all else is a challenge we can turn to a book and it is easy such a pleasure to be had that all our challenges becomes things of the past just because we are able to just forget it all through the act of picking a book let alone reading it.

[Volya]

Being able to find something that is appropriate to one's mind is important.......A book is a piece of information a literary reference that should reinforce likes and dislikes for example.........To spend hours and on ends analsying a book I do not like does not tell me anything about my choices of reading and writing..........Reading is as much about the amount of books we have read as well as the amount we have not read.The ones we do not want to read hold as much value as those we chose to read.

So we should only read books that are 'appropriate' to our minds? If when I was younger (even younger than I am now ^_^ ) I had only read books that reinforced my likes and dislikes, I would probably still be a homophobic, nationalistic idiot.
Also your statements seem to be somewhat contradictory. We should only read books that we agree with, but the ones we don't read have as much value as the ones we do?

[cacian]

So we should only read books that are 'appropriate' to our minds? If when I was younger (even younger than I am now ^_^ ) I had only read books that reinforced my likes and dislikes, I would probably still be a homophobic, nationalistic idiot.
Also your statements seem to be somewhat contradictory. We should only read books that we agree with, but the ones we don't read have as much value as the ones we do?

Hi Volya I think I did not express it right.
What I mean by likes and dislikes is this: The choice of book should tell me something about my likes and dislikes in the sense that if say I do not like Sons and Lovers but I do prefer One flew over the cuckoo nest then this tells me something about my preferences.
Going to a library and chosing something I like the look of tells me something about my preferences again.
A book for me does not teach about liking people or disliking them. I already know the kind of people I get on with and the ones I don't.
A book reinforces an ideology but never starts it especially when it comes to human instinct. It is already inherent in us to take fear dislike and attraction and so a book can only magnify that.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I sure am glad I spent all that time giving you a thought out reply, cacian. I guess I learned my lesson.

[cacian]

I sure am glad I spent all that time giving you a thought out reply, cacian. I guess I learned my lesson.

Dear Mutatis my laptop have been stolen so I am struggling to type with a very tiny keyboard hence why I have not entirely replied.
I am aware of what you have posted and I have read it all.
I will go and have another go at replying to your posts I won't promise I will reply all as a small keyboard is really uncomfortable to type with.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, I apologize for that snide comment, then.

[cacian]

Then you need to learn to better present your ideas, because you have a habit of using absolutes, i.e.:


Very true I have many habits and one of them is trying to communicate in English all the time. It is harder for me then it is for you.

As to not being able to like a book you haven't chosen to read, this isn't unusual . . . if you're still in high school. I don't know how someone can go into the field of literature and have that kind of mindset. I LOVE being made to read stuff I've never read or would otherwise not read. I may not like some of it, but I've discovered so much I wouldn't have because a teacher told me to read it. The Lais of Marie de France and The Golden Legend are just two examples, both of which I would never have read before being assigned them this semester.

As to some particulars:

Well I like reading and I also like choosing. The idea is to find a balance between what I want to read and why.
There is an element of being recommended books yes and I think it to be great but I was saying is that I would enjoy a book more if I was not forced to read it and then see it their way. Recommendations are always a bonus but then to be then told and inquired about how and why what I read was some kind of a learning process is tiresome. I wish to read to enjoy and absorb and not been questioned over it all the time.



Of course you're not going to connect with every book. Why would you think you would?


That is the whole point. Why read a book that I do not connect with? What is it am I trying to achieve? I read because I like to understand by myself. I enjoy understanding a book by own initiative. Independent reading is healthy for the intellect because it teaches independent thinking. Reading for the sake of reading teaches me to read without understanding. I only want to read because I wish to understand. It is a bit like shopping. I only buy what I want to eat wear or consume. Reading is exactly the same. It is a practicality not a theory.

Maybe in public school, but once you're in college, and if you're a reader, you shouldn't be "encouraged" by your instructors to seek out and read books. You should already be doing that. The instructor is there to teach you about whatever subject the class is on. If that means reading a few books you don't "engage" with, so be it, that's part of the process.
Learning for me is not about what others instruct me to do. Learning is about propositions ideologies and decision making. I learn through thinking processes and only can truly engage when I understand what it is I am trying to achieve through what I am LEARNING. I need to understand why I must learn maths physics and sciences. How are these subjects going to link to what I am going to be doing when I leave school. I must understand why must learn the timetables.
How are they going to help me get up everyday and talk to people and be myself. what is the point of me learning to add a thousand number with a billion ones if I am never going to use them in real life. I must cross reference with learning something and link it to real life.
And how will you ever grow intellectually if you decide to never deviate from what you deem "appropriate"?



How does only finding books you engage with, find appropriate, and ultimately enjoy encourage a difference in thinking? It does the exact opposite.
Well books I chose not to read should tell me something about me and my character the same with the books I read. They are an indication to my taste ideologies and likes. It is obvious to me why I would chose not read red riding hood say to my kid because I believe the story is not beneficial nor add intellectual values to a child apart from installing fears in them.

Will post more when I have a better computer to type from.

[cacian]

Well, I apologize for that snide comment, then.

Hey not at all. Will try again with a better keyboard hopefully I can get more words in LOL

[AuntShecky]

How would you know that you didn't like a book if you hadn't read it? Even if you had a bad experience with a book by a certain author, how do you know you wouldn't like some of his or her earlier (or later) works?

How many times have you read a book which starts off slowly, and just when you're about to throw it across the room, you turn the page and--voila! It starts getting good! Many good books start off that way; you just have to give them a chance.

As far as assigned reading goes, it would be a good idea, I think, to rely on the professors to point a student toward seminal works. How would you know that those books existed if you weren't informed--just browsing through the stacks of the library? (Nobody keeps you from doing that-- it's fun! But the point is, randomly chosen books should just be one part of your reading diet.)

Some great philosopher --I'd "Google" just who it was if I weren't afraid of getting bumped off-- said:


How do you know what you don't know?

[cacian]

how do you know what you don't know
well I don't know what I am not due. I cannot be be here or there and at the same time. I can only manage my reality the rest is superrelative.
A bit like destiny I am where I am wanted and when I am not then not knowing is bliss. The world goes on and so do I.
The idea is to go with where my knowledge takes me and is wanted. Everything else that is the unknown is discounted.
I follow my instinct if I don't meet up with Dante's epic proportionate stanzas then I am better of without it.
No books poetry or literature is going to reach me if I do not reach out to it and by my own accord. It is neither going to affect my judgement of myself people and what I am about. What is important is that I make a choice and stick by it. Life is people and people are all around outside pages of books. They are hard enough to deal with and so a book for me can wait until I am intellectually ready.
Let me acquaint myself with life before I acquaint myself with Dante and if and when I do and Dante is still an impossible task then I shall pursue my own tasks by making my own. In the meantime there are billion of easier dantes in each and one of us. If I wanted a challenge I would live with one and endeavour to reduce it to an eventual unchallenge.

[Charles Darnay]

well I don't know what I am not due. I am not here or there and at the same time. I can only manage my reality the rest is relative.
A bit like destiny I am where I am wanted and when I am not then not knowing is bliss. The world goes on and so do I.
The idea is to go with where my knowledge is wanted. Everything is discounted.
I follow my instinct if I don't meet up with Dante's epic proportionate stanzas then I am better of without it.
No books poetry or literature is going to reach me if I do not reach out to it and by my own accord. It is neither going to affect my judgement of myself people and what I am about. What is important is that I make a choice and stick by it. Life is people and people are all around outside pages of books. They are hard enough to deal with and so a book for me can wait until I am intellectually ready.
Let me acquaint myself with life before I acquaint myself with Dante and if when I do and Dante is still an impossible task then I shall pursue my own tasks by making my own. In the meantime there are billion of easier dantes in each and one of us. If I wanted a challenge I would live with one and endeavour to reduce it to an eventual unchallenge.

You know, I really like this post. It has no bearing on reality and parts of it make no sense - but I enjoy the idea of Dante journeying through me.

[AuntShecky]

The idea is to go with where my knowledge takes me

But think how much farther you could go with greater knowledge!


Everything else that is the unknown is discounted.

If everybody thought that way we'd still think we were living on a flat earth, that the sun and stars revolved around us, and pernicious diseases came from demons.