Does Brothers Grimm fairy tales teach us some purports about Life in its tales?

[krishna_lit]

I've read a National Geographic magazine article in my teenage which carried a cover story saying the importance of 'Brothers Grimm Fairy Tales' in the history of literature. It said that those tales have a lot to teach about life and well being to us all. I've started reading a volume of those tales and realized some very important things about goodness of life in those tales.

Here I'm giving the list of all the tales from the book. Please post the purports you realized if any from those classic tales. This is my research on the ancient folklore literature. Thank You so much.


[I thought of posting the complete list of tales, but it seemed a bit too long that people would be bored of scrolling it down, so I'm just posting a url that contained both the list and the tales themselves.]

Complete List: http://www.familymanagement.com/literacy/grimms/grimms-toc.html

[Charles Darnay]

Of course the Grimm's tales tend to be darker than the permutations that make it to us as wee ones, or to Disney films. As far as morals go, or life lessons: like all folklore, the initial stories were invented with some instructional purposes in mind. Such themes that come up often in these tales as "don't trust strangers" or the importance of family, or overcoming fear &c.

[JCamilo]

Grimm's versions are already modified for their purpose (for pedagogy, for germany, with burgouise mindset, etc)....

we have Red Hood, the mother is more adamant on her preucations, the hunters (the addult presence, also a form of police at the time), the happy ending (if compared to Perrault open and erotic end), changes the tale enough.

[kiki1982]

You are right that they teach about life, but the brothers Grimm, as JCamilo said, already changed the fairytales to make them more acceptable (or obvious) to their public. If you read older versions like Sleeping Beauty in its medieval Italian version, it's quite harsh, puberty. Get raped when you are innocently sleeping and only wake up (not smelling the coffee :p) when you've already got two babies. The Grimms take the focus away from puberty and sex to love. Typically romantic. :rolleyes:

I believe fairytales, loose from their version, speak rather in symbols and they are mostly about crucial phases in life or about life's issues (riches, beauty, etc.). There are a substancial amount of women spinning wool, for example. Even in the 19th century, that practice was going out of use and out of the general image in society, but it still remained a thing and activity firmly part of 'woman' because it had been one since Celtic times (there were even godesses) and thus, women spinning in fairytales are women who are making their lives (the thread). It's a kind of magic action.

You could probably find many more of these type characters.

There is a list somewhere of fairytales according to 'type' (i.e. girls lost in a wood, princesses locked up in towers, sleeping beauties, etc.), from all over the world. Proving of course that these type characters are a worldwide phenomenon and not a mere European one. Very intersting.

[ChicagoReader]

I'm currently in a class focused on the Brother's Grimm tales and yes, there are of course many lessons and morals to the tales. Two popular tale types are the Cinderella, which tends to involve abusive/jealous (step)mothers and sisters, with an absence of male roles; and Catskin, which involves the sexual desires of a (step) father toward his daughter. Some common themes are betrayal, justice, ability to follow rules, etc. In my opinion, while the tales are interesting in their historical context, they are quite boring to read, as they are intended for children. The morals and lessons are painfully obvious and repetition is used often to reiterate them. Also, many of the tales overlap, dealing with the same themes and morals.

[kiki1982]

The overlapping could be because the brothers Grimm set out to collect the folk-fairytales (Volksmärchen) from all over the German laguage area. So, logically, the one region would have had its Cinderella-like story and the other one too, with minor changes. Really small changes they included in footnotes (for example, I think I can recall a footnote that in another region so-and-so Red Riding Hood's woolf was not killed by the hunter, but chased away), but bigger ones like the Cinderella story with lentils, as opposed to the one with the frock in the tree and the blood in the shoe, as opposed to the one we know from Disney would have been recorded in three separate ones.

I agree that often things are repeated, although the number three seems to be a recurrent one in tales of all sorts. Of course, telling it to your children or grandchildren, would not make it as boring as reading it three times over in the very same wordings. Although most of the tales are not really long anyway.

[cacian]

I am not so sure whether tales teach me much about well being and life. I believe it is within us to detect what is dangerous and what isn't.
Humans are equipped well enough to know where not to go.
However I fell fairy tales such as the grimm brothers only set out to use what we already now as predatory danger to write tales about it and get a reaction from their readers.
It plays on the scarce element to write stories and not the other way to sway us from danger.
A bit like horror films. The gorriet the better because humans have tendencies to want to experiment with the unusual to want to scare themselves but with the added security of their living room. Why? I have no idea.
I think the Brothers Grimm tales exploit the notion of fear that is within us and take it one step further into the ether of the unknown. Provocation of fear does not satisfy wisdom or moral lessons but distort a reality that otherwise is remedied with rationality and reasoning.
Tales such as these I feel shrowd the intellect with doubts and irrationality and stops the inner reflective sense from reacting swiftly and naturally.
Tales such as this I see as a deterent to our instinctive healthy development.
I want to read about stuff that are happy to digest in orde to empower me more with reasonable assurances that life is not a bad wolf waiting to jump on a being and at a random pace.

[JasmineJNR]

I suspect they do.

There's probably a lot on there in the underlying theme.

But need to analyze each one to say exactly what. A job for some masters/phd student.

[skyrise]

There's a really good discussion here http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00h8t18 which may answer your question.

[Jackson Richardson]

I spent some time in my youth with a Rudolf Steiner community. They were very big on Grimm's fairy stories and regarded them as full of ancient wisdom which was to be clarified in Steiner's own esoteric ideas (ie, the town musicans of Bremen represent the four part of a human being, the physical body (the donkey), the etheric body, the astral body and the ego (the cockerell). I must say I have my doubts.)

Jungian analysis is very keen on the archetypes found in Grimm and Robert Bly makes one of the stories, Iron John, the basis of his study of masculinity.

[Ana Ramos]

I remember Grimms brothers Fairy Tales by Disney's movies, but I had never read all the stories. When I compared Disney's movies with real tales, I found a lot of differences. Grimms tales are darker and sad, and some authors believe that these stories were made to scare young people instead of entertaining them. However, I enjoy reading and recommend a lot this collection.

[Dreamwoven]

This link is of interest: http://www.rhymes.org.uk. It gives some ideas of what lay behind some of them.

Here is an example - http://www.rhymes.org.uk/who_killed_****_robin.htm. There are many more.

Some are clearly written the way they are because of censorship. That is, the rhymes are about people who had a mythical status, like Robin Hood, in the above example. Others are about illnesses like plague, other about step-parents and their step-children.

Jonathan B. mentions Rudolph Steiner, and I agree, as we have lived in Steiner communities.

All in all a fascinating thread, pity I found it so late, its a couple of years old.

[luhsun]

In the movie Shrek, Cinderella was described as sushi-loving by the Magic Mirror on the Wall to Lord Farquard. Could anyone please explain the sushi connection?

[JCamilo]

Can be just a random joke, albeit the chinese "cinderella", has a fish helping the girl, no?

[AuntShecky]

Some decades ago the Austrian psychologist Bruno Bettleheim came out with "The Uses of Enchantment" in which he espoused exploiting fairy tales for their symbolic value, thus contributing to the emotional development of children. To me, that theory is all wet, mainly because literature should not be forced to "earn its keep." Ol' Bruno was already on my s-list for his wacko opinions about autism. "Refrigerator Mothers" --my foot!

[Dreamwoven]

I remember Grimms brothers Fairy Tales by Disney's movies, but I had never read all the stories. When I compared Disney's movies with real tales, I found a lot of differences. Grimms tales are darker and sad, and some authors believe that these stories were made to scare young people instead of entertaining them. However, I enjoy reading and recommend a lot this collection.

Yes, that is the difference between Disney and Grimm. Disney is entertainment for small children but that is not the aim of Grimm.

See "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella"

[JCamilo]

Grimms works where meant for children too, mostly students, it was an educational project. They changed a lot of stuff from original source as well, adapting to their educational use but also the the notion of german/burgoise identidy. And not everything was darker than Disney, for example, Snow White of Disney is much darker, with the introduction of the ugly witch and black magic and a much more tragic death (in Grimms the queen death is a bit comical, she faints in the wedding) or sleeping beauty - Malificient is considerable darker than the old grump faery in original version. Of course, she is nothing near the other villain (the prince mothers), but that whole story was removed, since it really seems to be one of those oral mixing of stories.

[Dreamwoven]

JCamilo,
Thats very interesting, much more complex than I realised.

[JCamilo]

I am not defending Disney or attacking (I think he has his merits and flaws) or the kind of morality he defended, but the strength of faery tales and most oral stories is that you can undress then and put a new clothe very easily, they still have "enchantment" even when adapted to the different morality, be it the americans in XX century, the germans in XIX century, french aristocracy in the XVII century, etc. For example the best red riding hood i saw was Guimarães Rosa's version. And she is green, there is no wolf and it is all about aging and dying.

[Dreamwoven]

JCamilo
I am not defending Disney or attacking

I didn't think you were. Both Grimm and Disney were reflecting the anxiety we feel about common shared problems of relationships. These may change shape down the centuries but the form they take can be the source of common angst. The ugly duckling can be about the runt of the litter who is mobbed but who turns out to be a beautiful swan. Step-parents may find it hard to love the child of their partner from an earlier relationship. This has not changed much down the centuries only its form has. Dying in childbirth or men dying from a heart attack may have gone down, perhaps a lot, but re-marrying may have increased to the extent that both partners bring into the new relationship a comparable situation to the one before.

[JCamilo]

Oh, I know you didn't thougth I was defending him :)

Well, some of those evil step-mothers were actually mothers, in Snow White for example, the Grimms found version with both 'options", they went for stepmother a bit due the fact they didn't want to promote the rift between children and their mothers. But overall, it was quite usual to have "new mothers", since, as you said less childbirth death, with included less death of the mother. At any rate, the stepmother conflict is a bit a reflex of hereditary conflict. Who will keep the names, proprieties, etc. Works well in Cinderella because since the greek cinderella, it tells a tale of social/economic raising. The funny thing is that the a few renascensse version, which is the one that introduces the stepmother and family, She does not hate them, even finding husbands in the court for her "sisters".

[Dreamwoven]

I see you are well-read on this topic, and yes, indeed, there are many variants of the same basic story. I didn't know the pre-rennaissance one but it makes sense.

Some 25 years ago I read a book about the lady who kisses a frog and in so doing frees him from the spell that had made him ugly by turning the frog back into the prince

(I don't suppose you have the reference to that book, I can't find either the author's name or the book, just the newer Disney version). The point about this was that another theme in fairy tales is that of nasty little boys who are made of snips and snails and puppy dog tails (as against girls being made of sugar and spice and all things nice: see Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Are_Little_Boys_Made_Of%3F). This is a boy who grows up and through being kissed by a girl changes his interests and becomes a prince charming.

No doubt there are many variants of this, too. Fairy tales and the meanings they embody is a fascinating subject.

[JCamilo]

Yes, the frog prince and other magical transformations such as Beauty and the best may also work out as a moral lesson to arranged marriages (all men be beasts but they can be "changed" depending how well the girl behaves - the girl with the frog is pushed to her boundaries by the frog and is having to take him with her due to a vow, beauty has to accept her father's deal with Beast and make herself confortable at her new home) as the new husband could be a 'thing'. Sort like Eros and Psyche story, how the sisters manage to make Psyche curious about the real identidy of her husband.

[Dreamwoven]

Thats an interesting variant of the theme I had in mind. Even in Sweden we still have immigrants who arrange marriages for their sons and daughters. The most vulnerable are the daughters, as they are usually very young. There was a tragic case of an "honour murder" in Sweden in 2002: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Sweden. It caused a lot of fury in Sweden at the time. But arranged marriages still go on.

[JCamilo]

Well, it is cultural in Islamic countries and India (I know there is a variation of how much the woman has a saying or how much the family has, also not so strange in China, Japan, I dare say our western blind dates, etc. are a variation of this) and think will last because nobody found the formula of perfect marriage (and I cannot condem the notion in countries where family still something more important than individuals). But I am sure takes on marriages have other "twists", like Blue Beard formula (In a class once they raised the question if Blue Beard would kill or not his wife if she wasnt curious, I suggested he would just build another "motivation", so there was no charming prince under the beard), some variations a woman is married and finds her husband is the devil, and of course, Scheherazade imposing her wedding to"break" the psychosis on Sharyar mind. In some stories, weddings are the ending of all and in others it is just the start of the problems.