I Can't Believe I'm Bringing Up This Topic--Again!

[AuntShecky]

The topic, of course, is the one that brought me all manner of trouble on the LitNet and yet here I am, the proverbial glutton for punishment, bringing it up again:

What is the most approprate way to respond to a post in the General Writing, Personal Poetry, and Short Story Sharing forums?

When a fellow LitNutter posts his or her own piece of writing, it is assumed that the poster would like "feedback" on that particular piece, not necessarily "props" or praise. In fact, I believe one of the site's rules states that when a member posts his work, he or she should be aware that other members may weigh in with criticism, even though it may not always fulfill the original
poster's expectations. In other words, if you can't stand the heat, it's probably best that you steer clear of the kitchen. If your work --or certain aspects of your work-- are good, we'll tell you so! But!--If all you expect is praise, you might not necessarily get it.

Another sort of "rule"-- though it's implied and not written-- is that if you ask others for "feedback," then you should be willing to offer reciprocal feedback to others. That's only fair. To use another cliché-- what's good for the gander is good for the goosess. You have
to dish it out AND take it.

When the criticism is "constructive" -- which doesn't mean praise but rather suggestions on how to improve the original writing -- then that response I think is a valid one. It also can be a "learning experience" for both parties, as well as the LitNet community at large. By that I mean, the responder doesn't summarily rip the work apart but offers reasons for the criticism. The best responses come not from a mean-spirited stance but from a spirit of generosity.

Always the focus should be on the work itself, not an ad hominem attack on the individual poster (or vice versa, when the OP doesn't like the response and thus attacks the critic!)

So--why am I bringing this topic up-- again? It's just that-- foolishly or not--whenever I respond to a post, I really try (at least) to make an effort to do the best job I can and write the best possible response, merely because that's the way I would want someone to approach my work. As a result, I find that I give these replies a lot of attention and time (time perhaps better spent on my own work,such as it is. Lord knows it could use it!) Sometimes--not all the time, don't get your dander up!--I believe that I spend more time writing the response than the original poster spent creating the work.

It's so disappointing and disheartening. then. to put so much effort into the responses only to have the original poster (a) ignore it completely or (b) respond with a flippant, sarcastic comment or (c) dismiss my effort by saying something like "Oh, I was just foolin' around with this. I'm not a serious writer, etc. Yadda-yadda-yadda." I never want to go out of my way to hurt a fellow LitNutter, but on the other hand, I never know how a person is going take my criticism. That's the chance I have to take (just as the original poster takes a chance putting his or her work up to begin with.)

But-- what's really gratifying is when the LitNutter takes my responses seriously and accepts them in the spirit with which they are offered. Some of them actually say "Thank You." (You know who you are!:Angel_anim:) Getting that kind of response (to a response) restoreth my faith.

Thanks for letting me rant!

Auntie

PS
"Show--don't tell."

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

What's even more disheartening is that there are senior members here who disregard any criticism whatsoever. I don't know why some of them just aren't banned from those certain forums.

[MANICHAEAN]

Well put Aunty.
I’m not sure if it’s more difficult to comment on someone else’s work, than to receive.
Genuine praise is easy; both giving and receiving.
Incoming criticism is not too bad. You have to ask yourself honestly “Is it valid?” even “helpful?” Then deal with it.
I have difficulty though in phrasing criticism of someone’s work. Where is the line between being blunt and getting your perceptions across? It helps if you are dealing with a complete ***, then you can sock em between the eyes. But there are some sensitive souls out there, some very young, and I baulk at what might come across as bullying.
M.

[AuntShecky]

I have difficulty though in phrasing criticism of someone’s work. Where is the line between being blunt and getting your perceptions across? It helps if you are dealing with a complete ***, then you can sock em between the eyes. But there are some sensitive souls out there, some very young, and I baulk at what might come across as bullying.
M.

That's exactly what I attempted to say, Manichaean (except you expressed
it in a much better way!) Also, please count yourself among the "angelic" LitNutters who accept criticism graciously.
(Incidentally, happy belated birthday!)

[zoolane]

I love this post, I do not always comment because I do not know how said what I want to. I do a lot readied in background. I total agree with what Aunty and Man.

[SilentMute]

I agree that a person, when submitting their work, has to know how to take criticism gracefully...and accept that not everyone will like their work.

On the other hand, I have thought at times that some of the critics I have read in the past (this is not recent) have been more than harsh.

I have encountered two types of critics in my life. The helpful ones give constructive criticism. However, there is a small group--unfortunately--who are often frustrated writers themselves...and they, I think, delight in hurting people. Since their intent is to injure, I believe a person should disregard their comments.

Another thing is that any potential critic has to keep in mind is that just because you like or dislike something, it doesn't mean everyone is going to feel that way. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[hillwalker]

Another new member has picked up her skirts and departed because she found the restrained criticisms levelled at her infantile poetry too hard to take.

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71557

There's a simple solution - set up a separate 'room' in the Writing Forum for members who do not welcome critiques but still wish to showcase their work. New members with no experience of sharing their work in public and obtaining feedback could be encouraged to begin here then after perhaps reaching 50 posts they would qualify to post work elsewhere if they so desire.

H

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, I think some people need some harsh criticism from time to time to wake them up. That poem you linked hill, for example, was just terrible . . . nothing redeeming about it. Your restraint was admirable. And the advice was good from people--read more poetry before she writes, because she obviously has no idea what she's doing. If she's just goofing off, okay, but if she's looking to pursue writing in any kind of serious way, a wake up call was needed.

I also think positive criticism can be even more damaging when it just isn't warranted. There's a lot of that on here--people automatically saying something is good because a friendship has formed, and some people just say anything is good. A poster told Rosanna that her poem was good (and, surprise surprise, Rosanna locked onto that comment as if it was validating) and I frankly think it's cruel to give someone a false sense of achievement. It just sets them up to be torn down even harder later.

[rosana]

Another new member has picked up her skirts and departed because she found the restrained criticisms levelled at her infantile poetry too hard to take.

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71557

There's a simple solution - set up a separate 'room' in the Writing Forum for members who do not welcome critiques but still wish to showcase their work. New members with no experience of sharing their work in public and obtaining feedback could be encouraged to begin here then after perhaps reaching 50 posts they would qualify to post work elsewhere if they so desire.

H

you have said something sacred and i wished that every author had been asked to try to classify their poetry according to themes such as erotic or juvenile etc and whatever was in it this way i wouldnt have had open so many that werent the ones i expected for example suspension by cacian who was the person who said my poem was cool

[billl]

rosana, I saw your poem, and I instantly realized it was the work of someone beginning to write poetry. (EDIT: I just noticed in the other thread that English isn't your primary language.) Sorry I didn't comment or offer advice or praise, etc. I'm surprised that some people might have thought you were more experienced or needed some "tough talk" or whatever at this point. I can understand that some people might be motivated by that sort of thing or humiliation or whatever, and after a certain point, maybe a bracing dose of cold assessment might be a good thing for many cases. But generally speaking it isn't the best way to begin a teacher-student relationship, right?

[hillwalker]

rosana, I saw your poem, and I instantly realized it was the work of someone beginning to write poetry. (EDIT: I just noticed in the other thread that English isn't your primary language.) Sorry I didn't comment or offer advice or praise, etc. I'm surprised that some people might have thought you were more experienced or needed some "tough talk" or whatever at this point.

The 'tough talk' was basically - don't use rhyme if you're starting off. And read lots more poetry before trying to write some.
If that friendly advice is too painful to swallow for some because it bursts their bubble then they should try another site where they'll get tons of ingratiating flattery. Trust me. I've seen them, and the standard of writing on there would put a six-year-old to shame.

H

[billl]

The 'tough talk' was basically - don't use rhyme if you're starting off. And read lots more poetry before trying to write some.
If that friendly advice is too painful to swallow for some because it bursts their bubble then they should try another site where they'll get tons of ingratiating flattery. Trust me. I've seen them, and the standard of writing on there would put a six-year-old to shame.

H

That sort of site wouldn't be a good place for improvement, though.

[SilentMute]

hillwalker, out of curiosity, what are you basing good poetry on?

This poem, for instance. I took it for a jingle poem, which is often meant to be humorous. That style of poetry has different standards than other types of poetry. I'm very fond of jingle poem writing myself--and I hardly ever expect people to compare it to something that Robert Frost or whoever is considered to be a good poet.

A good critic knows the different types of poetry and basis it on the standards that the poem falls into. Same thing with any other type of writing. You have different criteria for different genres. What is good in dramatic works is not what you are looking for in horror or sci-fi.

Now, of course, there are literary snobs that believe only certain types of writing is "true" writing, and I'm sure there are people who believe the same thing about poetry. Okay...well...I doubt there is any point in arguing with such people. As far as I'm concerned, writing is worth while when 1) the author enjoys it and 2) someone out in the big wide world enjoys it. I, myself, enjoyed Rosana's poem. No, you can't compare it to Lord Byron, but it had its own merits.

What I am concerned about, though, is that we seem to have a bunch of people on LitNet that are not native speakers of English. If they are trying to write poems and stories to practice their English, harsh criticism could be more detrimental than helpful. I'm trying to learn Spanish, and I always know how painful it is when I feel like I've failed to communicate what I wanted to say. I once wrote what I thought was a humorous story in Spanish, and half the people that read it were rather rude...and not really helpful in their comments on how to improve the story.

But what the heck happened to you, hillwalker, man? What originally impressed me with you was how you could say things so nicely. I'm beginning to think you've been replaced by an evil twin.:sad:

[Volya]

I think if somebody cannot take any criticism towards their work, they should not post it here to begin with. Even if somebody is being exceptionally critical towards your work, there is no reason to get upset.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

hillwalker, out of curiosity, what are you basing good poetry on?

This poem, for instance. I took it for a jingle poem, which is often meant to be humorous. That style of poetry has different standards than other types of poetry. I'm very fond of jingle poem writing myself--and I hardly ever expect people to compare it to something that Robert Frost or whoever is considered to be a good poet.

A good critic knows the different types of poetry and basis it on the standards that the poem falls into. Same thing with any other type of writing. You have different criteria for different genres. What is good in dramatic works is not what you are looking for in horror or sci-fi.

Now, of course, there are literary snobs that believe only certain types of writing is "true" writing, and I'm sure there are people who believe the same thing about poetry. Okay...well...I doubt there is any point in arguing with such people. As far as I'm concerned, writing is worth while when 1) the author enjoys it and 2) someone out in the big wide world enjoys it. I, myself, enjoyed Rosana's poem. No, you can't compare it to Lord Byron, but it had its own merits.

What I am concerned about, though, is that we seem to have a bunch of people on LitNet that are not native speakers of English. If they are trying to write poems and stories to practice their English, harsh criticism could be more detrimental than helpful. I'm trying to learn Spanish, and I always know how painful it is when I feel like I've failed to communicate what I wanted to say. I once wrote what I thought was a humorous story in Spanish, and half the people that read it were rather rude...and not really helpful in their comments on how to improve the story.

But what the heck happened to you, hillwalker, man? What originally impressed me with you was how you could say things so nicely. I'm beginning to think you've been replaced by an evil twin.:sad:

Why would someone even try writing poetry in a language they don't even have a good grasp of? I'd think one would want to get their expository skills polished before moving on to poetry, which requires complete understanding of a language.

And I've been around since hill first joined, and I don't think he's changed a bit. He could be harsh then and he could be harsh now, and it's usually warranted . . . and, ironically, he wasn't even being harsh in the criticism of what's-her-name's poem that so many people are giving him flack over.

[SilentMute]

I guess what my objection is literary snobbism.

When I was very young, I developed a love of reading and writing because I was exposed to so many different styles in both. At that time, I was taught that art expressed the whole spectrum of human emotions. There was your serious stuff, but it also expressed the silly and light-hearted. These were not considered inferior.

In high school and particularly college, that all started to change. Suddenly, I encountered literary fascism. The only good literature comes from these authors and this time period. Literature is only "real" literature when it expresses pain, unrequited love that results in self-mutilation and/or suicide, sexual deviation that would be considered criminal if forensic science had existed at the time, or it is about nature. Anything else that didn't fall into these categories was considered stupid. Literature and creative writing classes were the same in this philosophy.

Well, let me tell you, it really destroyed my appreciation for both writing and reading. It used to be painful to go to class. The stories were not bad in of themselves, but I got sick and tired of reading about pain and misery day after day. When I had a chance to choose my own topic, my literature teachers would say comment on how trite my tastes were. Yes, I chose light-hearted stuff because I was already being assigned the heavy stuff. I fail to see why it is any less meaningful because it is light.

Yes, a person shouldn't post if they can't take criticism. I agree. However, is that really the only problem we have here? Take one of the comments to this poem--it was considered infantile because it was like "a silly nursery rhyme." Well, what we aren't able to appreciate nursery rhymes? I like nursery rhymes. I think they express the common annoyances of daily life quite well. But what--am I not allowed to post in the poetry section if I choose to do something like a nursery rhyme?

Oh, and now you have to use to use perfect grammar and have a good command of English to post poetry, according to Mr. Mutatis-Mutandis. And yes, I'd say hill has changed. When I first met him, he was quite tactful, and he was certainly more open-minded. He knew how to give constructive criticism which was helpful, which he seems to have lost.

What is wrong with writing stories and poems to improve your English? Now I understand why poor Zoolane is always saying, "I wish my English was good enough so I could participate." Zoolane speaks passably good English that she should be able to post. It is a shame if someone is on a social network and feel they can't post because they feel they can't write it well enough to please a bunch of a**holes.

[zoolane]

What is wrong with writing stories and poems to improve your English? Now I understand why poor Zoolane is always saying, "I wish my English was good enough so I could participate." Zoolane speaks passably good English that she should be able to post. It is a shame if someone is on a social network and feel they can't post because they feel they can't write it well enough to please a bunch of a**holes.

I do not mean to cause any offence to SilentMute but I know commented on this thread but does my name need to appear in very thread of this nature? I did get slightly angry not so long go and in round about way made my feelings know.

[AuntShecky]

Aaargh! See? Yer ol' auntie's gotten into trouble again!

I should have trusted my initial instincts NOT to post that question in the original post. Even though parts of that posting sounded like a rant, I mainly wanted some answers to the original question: What's the most appropriate way to write a critical response to a piece of creative writing by our fellow Litnetters? I never intended this thread to open up a can of worms squirming all over certain respectable Litnutters or a specific poem by an individual member.

So could someone please return to our regularly scheduled topic?

[zoolane]

To be honest and tact way, said that tact is sublet or blunt. It depends person who wrote how they see and they definitely of tact. Also writer has have thick skin and will to take what throw they way.

One man rubbish is other man treasure.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I guess what my objection is literary snobbism.

I won't deny there is snobbism o. This board. This is nothing new, at least within the last few years.

When I was very young, I developed a love of reading and writing because I was exposed to so many different styles in both. At that time, I was taught that art expressed the whole spectrum of human emotions. There was your serious stuff, but it also expressed the silly and light-hearted. These were not considered inferior.

In high school and particularly college, that all started to change. Suddenly, I encountered literary fascism. The only good literature comes from these authors and this time period. Literature is only "real" literature when it expresses pain, unrequited love that results in self-mutilation and/or suicide, sexual deviation that would be considered criminal if forensic science had existed at the time, or it is about nature. Anything else that didn't fall into these categories was considered stupid. Literature and creative writing classes were the same in this philosophy.

Well, let me tell you, it really destroyed my appreciation for both writing and reading. It used to be painful to go to class. The stories were not bad in of themselves, but I got sick and tired of reading about pain and misery day after day. When I had a chance to choose my own topic, my literature teachers would say comment on how trite my tastes were. Yes, I chose light-hearted stuff because I was already being assigned the heavy stuff. I fail to see why it is any less meaningful because it is light.

Are you suggesting that this is the case here, that only painful serious work is discussed, and if something else is it is ridiculed? I just want to make sure before I bother contradicting you.


Yes, a person shouldn't post if they can't take criticism. I agree. However, is that really the only problem we have here? Take one of the comments to this poem--it was considered infantile because it was like "a silly nursery rhyme." Well, what we aren't able to appreciate nursery rhymes? I like nursery rhymes. I think they express the common annoyances of daily life quite well. But what--am I not allowed to post in the poetry section if I choose to do something like a nursery rhyme?
Yes. Because all silly poetry here automatically gets riddled. Never mind Mystyrmystyry's work, who consistently receives praise, among others.


Oh, and now you have to use to use perfect grammar and have a good command of English to post poetry, according to Mr. Mutatis-Mutandis. And yes, I'd say hill has changed. When I first met him, he was quite tactful, and he was certainly more open-minded. He knew how to give constructive criticism which was helpful, which he seems to have lost.
You're purposefully misconstruing what I said. I never said one needs to have perfect grammar to post here. All I said is that if someone is still having a hard time with the basics of language, it might not be the best idea to jump right in to writing poetry, much less post it on a forums that gives feedback.

And if you really think hill doesn't offer constructive criticism anymore, you're wrong, plain and simple. Search his posts.

What is wrong with writing stories and poems to improve your English? Now I understand why poor Zoolane is always saying, "I wish my English was good enough so I could participate." Zoolane speaks passably good English that she should be able to post. It is a shame if someone is on a social network and feel they can't post because they feel they can't write it well enough to please a bunch of a**holes.
Look, if you're going to write crap and you don't want the criticism, don't post it here. Like others have said, post of somewhere else. Make a blog. If you're writing poetry to improve your language skills, great! Does that mean we should look past the flaws of the poem? No. I'm sorry if the forums are no longer a place where one can post something and get universal praise from all their buddies no matter how horrible it is (even though a lot of that still goes on). I'm sure there're are forums out there who will mollycoddle you and not be so "harsh" for fear of sparing one's delicate feelings.

And I've actually praised Zoolane and cacian's poetry on several occasions, both of whom don't have the best grammar, albeit for different reasons.

And I'll say it again, because I don't ****ing get it--hill's ever so controversial post wasn't even that bad!

[Volya]

Well, what we aren't able to appreciate nursery rhymes? I like nursery rhymes. I think they express the common annoyances of daily life quite well. But what--am I not allowed to post in the poetry section if I choose to do something like a nursery rhyme?


Be it a nursery rhyme or a sonnet, good or bad, if you can't accept criticism then you shouldn't post it.

[billl]

Aaargh! See? Yer ol' auntie's gotten into trouble again!

I should have trusted my initial instincts NOT to post that question in the original post. Even though parts of that posting sounded like a rant, I mainly wanted some answers to the original question: What's the most appropriate way to write a critical response to a piece of creative writing by our fellow Litnetters? I never intended this thread to open up a can of worms squirming all over certain respectable Litnutters or a specific poem by an individual member.

So could someone please return to our regularly scheduled topic?

As a former teacher (and as someone who has used an internet forum for a while) I try to take into account the person who has written something here, and at what sort of stage they might be in what they're trying to do. If they are new, it's obviously more difficult to decide what would be the best course to take in offering criticism and encouragement, of course. If it's their first poem, for example, and it seems like an early attempt or whatever, I think it's possibly a good idea to not respond as if the poem were part of some onslaught of mediocrity that's been dragging the site down or whatever--even under cover of some display of the patience of a saint. There's a good chance it's just someone trying to write poetry, excited about sharing it, and--I mean, look what recently happened here. "Off with you to some place where people only praise you all the time, if you can't handle it!!!" as if it were a black and white matter, like people should be expecting no better than such options from their computer screens.

I think human beings can do better than demand some sort of rigidly defined code for critiquing what's obviously a variety of poets and aspiring poets showing up. And I think they can do better than to assume that my making such a suggestion would be an indication that I'm naively and robotically opposed to sobering and blunt appraisal.

[miyako73]

Grammar is required for a spanish-speaking puerto rican who wants to learn english poetry. Wow! I thought grammar is not important. I see skin color in this one.

[AuntShecky]

I thought grammar is not important.

Why would you think that? Grammar is important, at the very least when one is using language in order to communicate ideas effectively. It doesn't matter whether this is one's first language or one's fiftieth. And the amount of melantonin in a writer's epidermis makes no difference at all!

Now, miyako73, if you don't mind, please answer the question from the opening post in this thread: What is the most appropriate way to respond to a creative writing post?

[miyako73]

Auntie, several people in here said so. Browse and you'll find them.

I think we should follow your style. I love a fearless criticism that helps me improve my writing.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Grammar is required for a spanish-speaking puerto rican who wants to learn english poetry. Wow! I thought grammar is not important. I see skin color in this one.

I guess I'll indulge your trolling. What does skin color have to do with it?

[miyako73]

It's okay for a white dyslexic to be ungrammatical but not for a Puerto Rican whose primary language is Spanish.

My point is that their grammars should be considered in constructively critiquing their works, so they can advance in creative writing. There are brilliant writers in English who are dyslexic or Puerto Rican.

[Calidore]

It's okay for a white dyslexic to be ungrammatical but not for a Puerto Rican whose primary language is Spanish.

Granted, I'm speaking from a position of relative ignorance, but I think it's usually a lot easier to learn a language than to overcome a neurological disorder. And since every skin color, including white, has numerous languages, I'm not sure how that enters into it at all.

[miyako73]

Well, let's just listen to AuntShecky. Grammar is important if you want to write. Period. I agree with her.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

It's okay for a white dyslexic to be ungrammatical but not for a Puerto Rican whose primary language is Spanish.

My point is that their grammars should be considered in constructively critiquing their works, so they can advance in creative writing. There are brilliant writers in English who are dyslexic or Puerto Rican.

Here's the key difference: zoolane's poetry is actually good. I've said it several times--her dyslexia gives her poetry an unusual cadence that somehow works. A lot of it reminds me of e.e. cummings. Rosana's poem didn't work. Color, ethnicity, whatever, has nothing to do with it. I didn't even know zoolane was white, nor did I know Rosana was a second-language speaker until she admitted it.

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