'She'

[zoolane]

'She'.

She feared of being on her alone.
My heart scream in turmoil.
I try to get her to open her heart to me.
A tiny drip plug it away passed her long lashes.

I do my best to understand.
She refuse to say.
Why is she so afraid?
She feared of being on her alone.

[E.A Rumfield]

She feared being on her own
My heart screams in turmoil.
I try to get her to open up to me
A tiny drip plug it away passed her long lashes.

I do my best to understand.
She refuses to say
Why is she so afraid?
She feared being alone

[zoolane]

Thank you E.A.

[Hawkman]

You had me thinking of H Rider Haggard's story of the same title.

Live and be well - H

[E.A Rumfield]

A tiny drip plug it away passed her long lashes.

I'm not sure what you meant by this line so I left it alone.

[Delta40]

While I like reading the grammatically correct version, I prefer your unique style Zoo because of the gemstones to be found there.

She feared of being on her alone.

This is vivid by itself. It's rather like an old hermit on his rock and says a whole lot more than:

She feared being on her own

So carry on Zoo. You're doing just fine.

[E.A Rumfield]

While I like reading the grammatically correct version, I prefer your unique style Zoo because of the gemstones to be found there.

She feared of being on her alone.

This is vivid by itself. It's rather like an old hermit on his rock and says a whole lot more than:

She feared being on her own

So carry on Zoo. You're doing just fine.

I don't know how you can say that. I've read some of his other poems and he could write good poetry if someone just made some minor corrections.


She feared of being on her alone.
You think this sounds prophetic when he is effectively saying
She feared being alone

We would be doing him no favor if we didn't advise him at ways of advancement. Doesn't mean I'm right or anyone else is, it is up to the writer to take the advice that sounds correct to him. We all can merely give our opinions. I feel you are just being nice and like I said that's no favor.

[miyako73]

I think Rumfield is right. In college, I saw several students who were advised to drop poetry and fiction classes because of their poor writing skills and basic English grammar. Before someone penniless strives to save for a cake, he needs to do it first for a cupcake. It is a disservice to an aspiring writer if we won't critique him out of pity. This forum is for literature not charity. I strongly advise that zoolane frequents English grammar forums, if he really wants to develop as a writer. Why swim in the ocean when you can't even tackle the swimming pool? My grammar and writing suck too; that's why I have been reading grammar and writing style bibles left and right before I dream of pursuing a novel or a short story collection.

[Haunted]

There is real pain in these words and the picture you painted is powerful. One can relate as the very young child, as we all have been there when we were at that tender age, and as the mother figure, her feelings and how tormented she must feel seeing her child suffers the fear of isolation.

Keep on doing what you do Zoo. I wouldn't take any English language advice from anyone who writes awkwardly, or is it Pidgin: "Before someone penniless strives to save for a cake, he needs to do it first for a cupcake." That would be a regression and you are above that.

[Delta40]

I have never pitied Zoo so don't get on the holy high horse of presumption about other members. When I feel like beating, thrashing and moulding a person with dyslexic characteristics into shape and insist that they fit into the norms of standard writing, I'll be on the same page but until then, I really enjoy her unique voice and Zoo is allowed the freedom of expression without judgment. Like anybody else, she can ask for help if she needs it.

[miyako73]

There is real pain in these words and the picture you painted is powerful. One can relate as the very young child, as we all have been there when we were at that tender age, and as the mother figure, her feelings and how tormented she must feel seeing her child suffers the fear of isolation.

Keep on doing what you do Zoo. I wouldn't take any English language advice from anyone who writes awkwardly, or is it Pidgin: "Before someone penniless strives to save for a cake, he needs to do it first for a cupcake." That would be a regression and you are above that.

"Before someone penniless strives to save for a cake, he needs to do it first for a cupcake."

Tell me the grammatically incorrect in that analogical statement. Educate me, so I'll learn.

When I started here, Hill was relentless on my grammar. Since then, I have tried to write and rewrite correctly. That's the positive thing I got from Hill's harsh criticisms. False praise does not help.

[billl]

If it were of great use, I'd fully support calls for a focus on zoo's grammar from other commenters on Litnet, and I expect she would too. And if it's actually of even a little bit of use, then maybe that sort of advice could be handed out without the side orders of "you gotta be cruel to be kind". But I'm pretty sure it's just a unique situation, and no one really means ill towards anyone else, at least in the first place.

I'm happy to read the poems the way they've been coming to us from zoolane. There has been an obvious growth, and the unique phrasings really do end up evoking something really original and human and surprising somehow--even if it is (to some degree, perhaps great or merely slight) occasionally accidental, I don't care. I'll be selfish for a second and say I'd prefer to read more of it rather than watch some amateur-hour attempts at grammar remediation at a distance, in the face of some sort of similar-to-dyslexia filter/challenge/surprise-machinery.

Again, though--I don't mean to point fingers or question intentions, because I just think it's maybe a unique situation going on here with zoolane and her poetic output on Litnet. (Frankly, I think E.A Rumfield has been pretty cool about it. Maybe a PM would be an idea for future grammar help, thus leaving the other rewarding elements of these poems the focus of the threads?)

[miyako73]

I remember this Asian girl (maybe from Taiwan) who used to post here. Many bashed her for her grammatical lapses. Isn't having English as a second language a factor too for critics to be lenient? Or is this a case of double standard?

I forgot. Bill also helped me with my grammar and my early short stories here, and I did not feel bad. I was so challenged that until now I have been trying my best to learn.

[DieterM]

For me as a non native speaker who doesn't even live in an English-speaking country, it has been a bit difficult in the beginning to read zoolane's poems. On the other hand, I've read Rimbaud's "Bateau ivre" and couldn't pretend back then that I understood his grammatically correct poem with my head. I thought I understood some things intuitively, without ever being sure I got the sense he intented me to get. So I always read zoolane's inputs twice, thrice, even more often. Not because I pity her (correct me, zoo, I always reckoned you were a girl - but then, I though Delta was a guy until she put me right :-)). But because, like Delta, I like her style. It is grammatically incorrect to say "She feared of being on her alone", alright. Yet, I agree with you again, Delta, it somehow appeals to me too. There's something more in that than "She was afraid of being on her own". I flinch with the missing third-person "s" in "My heart scream in turmoil", but only because in school I've been trained to flinch. You made 8 mistakes like that in an English exam back in Austria, you'd get a 5 (the same thing as a D? E? in the UK? help me on this one). I get your point, miyako; I assure you that grammar mistakes are sometimes the first thing I see. But, you understand?, because I've been trained and programmed to. And zoolane somehow helps me to untrain some of those reactions and reach a deeper sense of words and phrasing.

[billl]

I remember this Asian girl (maybe from Taiwan) who used to post here. Many bashed her for her grammatical lapses. Isn't having English as a second language a factor too for critics to be lenient? Or is this a case of double standard?

I just did an edit (added a bit towards the end), if my comment was part of what spurred this one. Anyhow, I think that NEW language study and learning is different in some ways than something like what appears to be a medical or language-processing condition of some sort. I mean, I'm not sure what the situation is, and I would hate to characterize it wrong, but others (including myself) have made the obvious attempts to provide advice with the grammar, and it maybe seems to have done some good now and then, but it really isn't the sort of thing that most of us face or are familiar with, I don't think. Helping someone from another linguistic background is different than helping someone for whom the help of a professional language therapist or whatever would be most useful in that regard.

If life were black and white, it'd be easy to hammer out the proper courses of behavior, but it isn't like that, and humans quickly end up looking at apples and oranges. Many second-language learners can make amazing strides without the aid of professional teachers, based almost solely on their talent for language, and so helping in that situation sometimes seems easy and straightforward (even though it often isn't for other second-language learners). But if the language in question is a first language, and the challenge is one that has been (perhaps?) a life-long one, well... I mean, I don't know, I'm just going on the impressions I've gotten, without ever probing too seriously for the real answers about the issue behind the particular case here, this is just my best guess and I might be completely wrong--but couldn't it be the case that it isn't a double-standard?


I forgot. Bill also helped me with my grammar and my early short stories here, and I did not feel bad. I was so challenged that until now I have been trying my best to learn.

My heart just melted a little...!

(And you're just naturally pretty good with languages.)

[miyako73]

To remind you all, I'm only supporting what Rumfield said. My last response to this: a quote from a poetry professor.

"Poets are not taken seriously because anyone who knows how to hold a pen calls himself a poet."

[E.A Rumfield]

Hey, I meant no harm.

[zoolane]

There is real pain in these words and the picture you painted is powerful. One can relate as the very young child, as we all have been there when we were at that tender age, and as the mother figure, her feelings and how tormented she must feel seeing her child suffers the fear of isolation.

Keep on doing what you do Zoo. I wouldn't take any English language advice from anyone who writes awkwardly, or is it Pidgin: "Before someone penniless strives to save for a cake, he needs to do it first for a cupcake." That would be a regression and you are above that.

Thank you Haunted, you are right is mother worrying about her daughter who twelve, she always had self esteem issues but it seem to slowly get worse. So waiting call back from her school.


You had me thinking of H Rider Haggard's story of the same title.

Live and be well - H


A tiny drip plug it away passed her long lashes.

I'm not sure what you meant by this line so I left it alone.

Thank you Hawk for reading the poem.


EA the line mention is about went child crying 'tiny drip' tear.


While I like reading the grammatically correct version, I prefer your unique style Zoo because of the gemstones to be found there.

She feared of being on her alone.

This is vivid by itself. It's rather like an old hermit on his rock and says a whole lot more than:

She feared being on her own

So carry on Zoo. You're doing just fine.

Thank you Delta and for honest with me.


I don't know how you can say that. I've read some of his other poems and he could write good poetry if someone just made some minor corrections.


She feared of being on her alone.
You think this sounds prophetic when he is effectively saying
She feared being alone

We would be doing him no favor if we didn't advise him at ways of advancement. Doesn't mean I'm right or anyone else is, it is up to the writer to take the advice that sounds correct to him. We all can merely give our opinions. I feel you are just being nice and like I said that's no favor.

First I am mother so woman, as grammar I have tried in recent years by doing refresh courses, quite few times and also back college to retake English GCSE I will never get hang of grammar because it does not stay in my memory banks and if like previous I get so caution about grammar, I will forget why started writing it first place.


If it were of great use, I'd fully support calls for a focus on zoo's grammar from other commenters on Litnet, and I expect she would too. And if it's actually of even a little bit of use, then maybe that sort of advice could be handed out without the side orders of "you gotta be cruel to be kind". But I'm pretty sure it's just a unique situation, and no one really means ill towards anyone else, at least in the first place.

I'm happy to read the poems the way they've been coming to us from zoolane. There has been an obvious growth, and the unique phrasings really do end up evoking something really original and human and surprising somehow--even if it is (to some degree, perhaps great or merely slight) occasionally accidental, I don't care. I'll be selfish for a second and say I'd prefer to read more of it rather than watch some amateur-hour attempts at grammar remediation at a distance, in the face of some sort of similar-to-dyslexia filter/challenge/surprise-machinery.

Again, though--I don't mean to point fingers or question intentions, because I just think it's maybe a unique situation going on here with zoolane and her poetic output on Litnet. (Frankly, I think E.A Rumfield has been pretty cool about it. Maybe a PM would be an idea for future grammar help, thus leaving the other rewarding elements of these poems the focus of the threads?)

Thank you Bill for reading and comment.


For me as a non native speaker who doesn't even live in an English-speaking country, it has been a bit difficult in the beginning to read zoolane's poems. On the other hand, I've read Rimbaud's "Bateau ivre" and couldn't pretend back then that I understood his grammatically correct poem with my head. I thought I understood some things intuitively, without ever being sure I got the sense he intented me to get. So I always read zoolane's inputs twice, thrice, even more often. Not because I pity her (correct me, zoo, I always reckoned you were a girl - but then, I though Delta was a guy until she put me right :-)). But because, like Delta, I like her style. It is grammatically incorrect to say "She feared of being on her alone", alright. Yet, I agree with you again, Delta, it somehow appeals to me too. There's something more in that than "She was afraid of being on her own". I flinch with the missing third-person "s" in "My heart scream in turmoil", but only because in school I've been trained to flinch. You made 8 mistakes like that in an English exam back in Austria, you'd get a 5 (the same thing as a D? E? in the UK? help me on this one). I get your point, miyako; I assure you that grammar mistakes are sometimes the first thing I see. But, you understand?, because I've been trained and programmed to. And zoolane somehow helps me to untrain some of those reactions and reach a deeper sense of words and phrasing.

Thank you DieterM, I am girl and your words are kind. I am glad help you to grow as person and as writer.


To remind you all, I'm only supporting what Rumfield said. My last response to this: a quote from a poetry professor.

"Poets are not taken seriously because anyone who knows how to hold a pen calls himself a poet."

Grammar is and always will be be downfall.

I do not writing poetry or other stuff thing for grammar, I writing because it help me to filter my emotion and feeling about things as happened in everyday.

[hillwalker]

Zoo has been a member of LitNet for a couple of years now and she has shown that determination and dedication are as important as language skills. I'm sure she'll not mind me saying that her first postings - mostly prose - were pretty dreadful and almost impossible to make sense of. But everything she wrote came from the heart and was a genuine attempt to express herself rather than impress her readers.

She recently took a college course in English Language and passed - something she would probably have never considered doing had she not received some of our support on here. She has also started writing poetry - more difficult in some ways but more forgiving where grammatical structure is concerned.

Ok, the reader has to make allowances for some of the expressions she uses. The same way the reader fills the gaps in so much poetry.

miyako - I agree that it would be to any writer's advantage that they learn the basics of grammar and spelling if they are to be fully accepted as a writer and I can see why you think perhaps double standards are at work here. But we don't all have to fit into the same pigeon-hole to be considered 'good' writers. There are poets who write in the vernacular - Scots, West Indian, Cajun or whatever - and we don't criticise their language as long as the sense of the poem comes through and it makes the experience worthwhile. Zoo's 'chosen' vernacular is Dyslexia. Does that make her poetry any less effective or engaging than anyone else's? In my opinion - no. The chances of her ever getting published are diminished, but we read her poetry because it speaks from the heart and the effort to decipher the words is worth all the effort.

EA - I know you meant no harm, and you're coming to this situation with a fresh pair of eyes. I'm always reluctant to 'rewrite' anything for anyone regardless of how helpful it might be perceived. When we do that it's no longer the OP's work. Sometimes flaws are glaring and distracting - and when we point them out the writer insists they were intentional in order to save face. In Zoo's case she has the dignity to take all advice and criticism with good grace. But you know, every beautiful thing usually has a single flaw that makes it transcend the mediocre.

H

[cacian]

To remind you all, I'm only supporting what Rumfield said. My last response to this: a quote from a poetry professor.

"Poets are not taken seriously because anyone who knows how to hold a pen calls himself a poet."

Hi miyako may I add something to this without being offensiv.
Poets are people first and foremost and people do hold a pen from the word go because they go to school a majority of their life that tells them they have to.
Is it anyone's fault to expect less or more from someoene whose whole life depends on the pen?
It is easy to point the finger and not so easy to let the pen down.
My view is that let's not take ourselves to seriously in case someone doea drops the pen and is never able to pick it up again.


'She'.

She feared of being on her alone.
My heart scream in turmoil.
I try to get her to open her heart to me.
A tiny drip plug it away passed her long lashes.

I do my best to understand.
She refuse to say.
Why is she so afraid?
She feared of being on her alone.

I love this it is perfect and a joy to read.

[zoolane]

Thank you for your feedback Cacian.

And H I am not offending about anything you wrote about me or writing because all true.Yes I am writing was horrific when I join but learn gain confidence and guild from you all.

[miyako73]

The thought that dyslexics cannot advance in writing is just condescending.

Philip Schultz published "My Dyslexia."

http://thesop.org/story/opinion/2008/06/20/dyslexia-and-me-a-writers-personal-view-of-his-own-dyslexia.php

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-dyslexic-writer-journalist-coping-dyslexia-8002038.html

[hillwalker]

The thought that dyslexics cannot advance in writing is just condescending.

Have you posted this in response to a misreading of my latest post? Otherwise it seems a rather ill-timed observation to make.

If anyone's writing has 'advanced' during the last 18 months on this forum it is Zoolane's - partly through constructive critiques and partly through encouragement.

A comment like 'This forum is for literature not charity' shows poor judgement and a lack of respect for the OP and those of us who enjoy her work.

H

[zoolane]

The thought that dyslexics cannot advance in writing is just condescending.

Philip Schultz published "My Dyslexia."

http://thesop.org/story/opinion/2008/06/20/dyslexia-and-me-a-writers-personal-view-of-his-own-dyslexia.php

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-dyslexic-writer-journalist-coping-dyslexia-8002038.html

Thank you the links, I readied both and very interest.

[E.A Rumfield]

EA - I know you meant no harm, and you're coming to this situation with a fresh pair of eyes. I'm always reluctant to 'rewrite' anything for anyone regardless of how helpful it might be perceived. When we do that it's no longer the OP's work. Sometimes flaws are glaring and distracting - and when we point them out the writer insists they were intentional in order to save face. In Zoo's case she has the dignity to take all advice and criticism with good grace. But you know, every beautiful thing usually has a single flaw that makes it transcend the mediocre.

H

You can say that something is only beautiful because it is flawed. Like a woman with a nose that is a little too big is more attractive than a woman with perfect proportions.

Zoo I'm sorry I assumed you were a male. That is a common mistake of indifference. Keep doing what you are doing poetry is a great form of expression.

[zoolane]

Thank you E.A.

[qimissung]

Wow, that was a really fascinating discussion. I love your poem, Zoolane. I have to fall down on the side of those who read it and find it powerful and beautiful, even though it is not written in a grammatically pure form.

I've taught English as a Second Language for a number of years (and yes, I know Zoolane has dyslexia), and I always encouraged my students to write and found their writing beautiful in unexpected ways, just as I do Zoolane's.

I know that a lot of the critiquing that goes on here focuses on grammar. I've never been really interested in grammar. I recognize it's importance, but there are other aspects to writing that are just as important and that defy teaching or correcting.

I think your teachers were a little harsh, Miyako. I'm glad the people here seemed to guide you gently toward improving your English, but I hope that you never discourage anyone, least of all yourself, because of grammar.

[miyako73]

I'm not discouraging zoolane to write. I think she can write good poetry if she improves her grammar. I also don't think a dyslexic person cannot advance in writing. There are many brilliant dyslexic writers and journalists who can disprove the thinking in this thread that it's okay for zoolane not to improve or develop--in grammar or anything else. Telling zoolane to be contented of what she has written so far or that her works are brilliant as they are is not doing her a favor. So, I don't find Rumfield's effort to help her as insulting or bad.

[qimissung]

It was not my intention to indicate that you were discouraging Zoolane, nor that I thought she could not improve. I do, however, think that you have little understanding of learning disorders.

[Haunted]

I've taught English as a Second Language for a number of years (and yes, I know Zoolane has dyslexia), and I always encouraged my students to write and found their writing beautiful in unexpected ways, just as I do Zoolane's.

I've never been really interested in grammar. I recognize it's importance, but there are other aspects to writing that are just as important and that defy teaching or correcting.

Well said Qim. Grammar is really just a tool, it doesn't make good writing in itself. The notion that good grammar = good writing, is misguided. I was a writer in the creative industry and I know first hand they didn't hire us because of our mastery of grammar. They don't give a sh-t. There are copyeditors and proofreaders to fix our grammar and spelling. When they look for writers, they look for thinkers. That would be the "other aspects to writing" you were talking about.

In poetry writing, there is a lot of leeway with grammar. Poetry is a creative product, just like singing. One would expect a singer to have a perfect singing voice and clear articulation. But look at Bob Dylan, no one can understand a word of what he was singing. Yet the world embraced him. Rod Stewart made a name for himself with his so imperfect raspy voice for a singer, but that made him crazy sexy. Likewise, off keyed grammar became Zoo. Do we have much difficulty in understanding her? No.

There is a key element in writing, and that's the writer's voice. Grammar doesn't set you apart, your voice does. Zoo has her own voice, a very unique voice, dyslexic and distinct. Even if she writes anonymously, as soon as you read her work, you know it's from her. That is powerful. I'd take a distinct voice and highly recognizable style any day, than writing in perfect grammar and sounding like everyone else.

[qimissung]

Also well said, Haunted!

[crusoe]

Hi Zoo, YOUR way of writing is unique. Leave grammar to the ones who write grammar.
If you start thinking about form,grammar bla bla bla, you'll end up doing Zilch.
(EM of course wanted to help and that's cool)

[zoolane]

Thank you gimissung, haunted and crusoe.

Mikyo I understand about used grammar, but things is I do not understand the purpose. I can edit my writing or someone else can and I can tell you now that I will not see a different. Special in poems.

[Bar22do]

"she feared being on her alone" is beautifully said, makes it special! There are so many comments that I will never be able to read them, so I'll limit myself to your poem - which I love!

[zoolane]

Thank you Bar.

[Lumiere]

A tiny drip plug it away passed her long lashes

I love this line!

Because of your unique relationship with language, this line makes me think not only of a tear down a face, but of plumbing and metal, and rust and water, and ashes along with lashes, because of your use of "passed".

I find your poetry so interesting and full of spike, because the way you say things does not fit into the pattern in which I'm used to reading things. So, I read old words like I am NOT used to them, like they are alive and moving around. I LOVE THIS!