The Amount of Porn on the Internet

[cacian]

I was just thinking someone the other day drew my attention to the fact that they just needed to type 'naked women' on google search engine and picutres of nude women came up. In other words one does not need to access special sites to look at porn or nudity.
It is that easy to access indecent imaged especially for children on spend most of their time using internet gadgets.

a) A search engine such as google should take responsibility for its content since children are also use google to look up stuff.
b) The internet will be so swamped with nudity and indecent material every second we log on to the point where people will eventually give up the computer all together. Either that or clean up the internet.

[Volya]

Yes, yes, and we already are.

[MystyrMystyry]

Of course it could be argued that the success of the internet was built on the rudity, just like the success of photography, home movies -> phones with cameras and video capability etc

Before the technology? There were paintings and sculptures of nakeds, and even rudist colonies. All sorts of stuff you wouldn't even be aware of were it not for the internet.

Children make up about 2 percent of the population, the proper place is for them to play out in the sun.

'But they need the internet for school and entertainment!'

You can install filters so that rude access is denied ;)

[cacian]

Of course it could be argued that the success of the internet was built on the rudity, just like the success of photography, home movies -> phones with cameras and video capability etc

Before the technology? There were paintings and sculptures of nakeds, and even rudist colonies. All sorts of stuff you wouldn't even be aware of were it not for the internet.

Children make up about 2 percent of the population, the proper place is for them to play out in the sun.

'But they need the internet for school and entertainment!'

You can install filters so that rude access is denied ;)

Alas if it was only down to filters we'll be laughing.
Prostituion of another kind is on the rise inclduing children using the net as a way of passing time and selling their body image because there is nothing else to do.
It is the modern age mentality where by 'one can one does' because the possibilities are endless as far technology is concerned.
Filtering mentalities is a different kind of game.

A computer is great if used sensibly. A person is not when sensibity is lost.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Google is a search engine. It doesn't actually publish the material you search for. It can set up filters, and it does in some ways (like any time you start to type something obscene the suggested searches will stop). It's a tool for people to search for whatever they want. Parents should be the ones to monitor their children's usage of the internet, not Google.

How would you "clean up the internet," anyway? Just go around and delete websites deemed innapropriate? Who is/can make that judgement call? Where is the line drawn? Who has the right to impose their moral judgements on the rest of the world? You, cacian? If that's the case, going by what you've said before, everything that isn't happy and uplifting should be deleted lest our souls are corrupted by anything you see as negative.

{edit}

[Delta40]

I think parental supervision is obviously the key but what does that mean in 2012 when parents themselves can't be dragged away from the computer to put a home cooked meal on the table?

[Charles Darnay]

Parental control doesn't mean hovering over a child, it's a matter of education. You will never control everything your child looks at - and you shouldn't anyway. If you have some reservation about looking at porn, doesn't mean your child has to. In fact, demonizing it and claiming it is unnatural leads to more problems than it prevents.

Of course, the Internet is a trove of obscene things (Offended, anyone?) and there are plenty of filters to prevent your child from looking at certain materials, but taking time to discuss the stuff with your child is far more valuable than blocking it outright.

[tonywalt]

Google is a search engine. It doesn't actually publish the material you search for. It can set up filters, and it does in some ways (like any time you start to type something obscene the suggested searches will stop). It's a tool for people to search for whatever they want. Parents should be the ones to monitor their children's usage of the internet, not Google.

How would you "clean up the internet," anyway? Just go around and delete websites deemed innapropriate? Who is/can make that judgement call? Where is the line drawn? Who has the right to impose their moral judgements on the rest of the world? You, cacian? If that's the case, going by what you've said before, everything that isn't happy and uplifting should be deleted lest our souls are corrupted by anything you see as negative.

{edit}

Well there is always the North Korean or Saudi Models to choose from - lovely:eek2:

[cacian]

Well there is always the North Korean or Saudi Models to choose from - lovely:eek2:

Is beauty down to nationalities these days?

[tonywalt]

Is beauty down to nationalities these days?

lol - I meant the internet blocking systems. (I'm sure there are many nice looking Norht Korean women out there....)

[Volya]

Filters and programs that block porn sites don't work, kids will always be able to find a way around them, and they find it pretty easy too.

[Alexander III]

The more important question; what is wrong with porn?

[Volya]

Some people (me included) find it immoral. Mostly due to the fact that I guess some people view it as kinda similar to prostitution.

[Emil Miller]

lol - (I'm sure there are many nice looking Norht Korean women out there....)

There sure are.

[Alexander III]

Some people (me included) find it immoral. Mostly due to the fact that I guess some people view it as kinda similar to prostitution.

Some people like me use it to masturbate. You're a schoolboy, i'll be damned if you don't frig? Well the curse of some is that they reach an age when their members grown numb to imagination and require something more real to rise.

Besides much like prostitution pornography is voluntary; surely a society dictating to women what they can and cannot do with their bodies is reminiscent of an old patriarchal and hypocritical society which seeks to control the bodies of women, as they are perceived to be the property of husbands and fathers rather than free-thinking individuals. Do you somehow think that women are too stupid to make such decisions for themselves, or that they are to weak the protect their virtue and thus require government and society to protect it for them. Or would the legalization of prostitution and the subsequent demise of sex-slavery, pimping, and lack of safety be immoral to your eyes?

[cacian]

The more important question; what is wrong with porn?

Nothing wrong with porn as such.
It is how affect some more then others to others that is perhaps wrong.
Some watch porn for pleasure, some get addicted to it and others use it to learn from and put into practice themselves and use via the internet.
I think mixing pleasure and reality can be quite messy at times.

[jajdude]

Yep, lots of porn out there. I think some "clean" video sites like youtube have plenty of material too that isn't called porn but can still arouse and do the job for many viewers.

[Volya]

Some people like me use it to masturbate. You're a schoolboy, i'll be damned if you don't frig? Well the curse of some is that they reach an age when their members grown numb to imagination and require something more real to rise.

Besides much like prostitution pornography is voluntary; surely a society dictating to women what they can and cannot do with their bodies is reminiscent of an old patriarchal and hypocritical society which seeks to control the bodies of women, as they are perceived to be the property of husbands and fathers rather than free-thinking individuals. Do you somehow think that women are too stupid to make such decisions for themselves, or that they are to weak the protect their virtue and thus require government and society to protect it for them. Or would the legalization of prostitution and the subsequent demise of sex-slavery, pimping, and lack of safety be immoral to your eyes?

Sure, prostitution is 'voluntary'. But given the choice I'm sure most women would rather be in a different business. I would support the legalization of it simply because it would ultimately protect women more, although I would still be opposed to the business.
And I don't 'frig' (that's a new word xD ) anymore.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

lol - I meant the internet blocking systems. (I'm sure there are many nice looking Norht Korean women out there....)
I read this and though, "I'm sure Emil is going to chime in." And he did. :lol:

Some people (me included) find it immoral. Mostly due to the fact that I guess some people view it as kinda similar to prostitution.
I don't see anything wrong with prostitution or porn. There are undoubtedly many that get into it for the wrong reasons, but there are also many because they're free with their bodies and enjoy sex (and know how to do it well).



Besides much like prostitution pornography is voluntary; surely a society dictating to women what they can and cannot do with their bodies is reminiscent of an old patriarchal and hypocritical society which seeks to control the bodies of women, as they are perceived to be the property of husbands and fathers rather than free-thinking individuals. Do you somehow think that women are too stupid to make such decisions for themselves, or that they are to weak the protect their virtue and thus require government and society to protect it for them. Or would the legalization of prostitution and the subsequent demise of sex-slavery, pimping, and lack of safety be immoral to your eyes?
Agree with everything here.


And I don't 'frig' (that's a new word xD ) anymore.
You must have a very generous partner. If you don't, I don't understand you.


With all this talk about women in porn and prostitution, I can't help but point out that men are involved in both, too. There are male porn performers (who're objectified and used just as much as the women) and male prostitutes.

[Alexander III]

And I don't 'frig' (that's a new word xD ) anymore.

Bull to the sh1it. No 15 year old does not masturbate. No normal and healthy 15 year old at least.




You must have a very generous partner. If you don't, I don't understand you.



Complete and utter fallacy. There is no man, regardless of relationship who does not masturbate. Simply put, a woman cannot satisfy the sexual needs of any young man, and thus he on several occasions needs to tend to himself.

[Volya]

Call bull**** if you want, but I haven't wanked for months, nor do I have a girlfriend.
Is it really that hard for you guys to believe?

And like I said, I wouldn't have a problem with prostitution or porn if I knew that everyone doing it was doing it out of choice. But they're not.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Call bull**** if you want, but I haven't wanked for months, nor do I have a girlfriend.
Is it really that hard for you guys to believe?
Yeah, kind of. You gotta be pent up.

[stlukesguild]

I was just thinking someone the other day drew my attention to the fact that they just needed to type 'naked women' on google search engine and picutres of nude women came up. In other words one does not need to access special sites to look at porn or nudity.
It is that easy to access indecent imaged especially for children on spend most of their time using internet gadgets.

a) A search engine such as google should take responsibility for its content since children are also use google to look up stuff.
b) The internet will be so swamped with nudity and indecent material every second we log on to the point where people will eventually give up the computer all together. Either that or clean up the internet.

It has been noted on more than one occasion that the 3 leading uses of the latest technologies... at least in the field of communication/information dissemination have always been 1. The Military 2. Art 3. Pornography. One need only look to the history of print technologies, photography, film, video, the internet, social networks, texting, etc... Pornography and the Sex Industry in general is a huge industry in financial terms. If you have only just realized how easy it is to find porn on the internet, you seriously must have been living a sheltered life for the last 20 years.

I agree that the ease of access to pornographic material on the internet can be a problem when considering children. I don't believe for one minute that it is the responsibility of search engines such as Google to monitor... and what?... censor our access to information? How? That is a parent's responsibility. A parent can easily employ search filters, programs that record every site visited, and restrict access to the computer through passwords, etc... They should also take the time to have a serious discussion with their child about sex and what is or is not appropriate viewing for a child at a given age.

The internet is already swamped with nudity... however most sites, such as LitNet... can easily control what they deem appropriate or inappropriate without fear that the second you log on you'll be accosted with boobs in your face...


Not that such would likely offend me...:ihih:

[Volya]

Yeah, kind of. You gotta be pent up.

Heh, as it happens I feel better now than when I did do it.

[OrphanPip]

Well the porn industry is a nasty industry, now more than ever. Personally, as someone on this site who has some connection to the porn industry, in that I know a few people who worked in it and even a couple that still do (mostly behind the scenes on the online marketing side). The porn industry is not the happy, fun place it likes to present itself as. Saying it is like prostitution is a bit of an understatement, it pretty much is prostitution, and most of the porn stars, except for a few big names, are working as prostitutes off camera to supplement their income.

Edit: Just as an aside, I think the rise of web 2.0 sites has perhaps done something to combat some level of the exploitative nature, in that at least people have the ability to be "primary producers" instead of being under the thumb of studios or producers that control them with drugs and force them to whore at private parties.

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Please do not discuss each other but the topic at hand.

Personal/inflammatory posts have been and will be removed without further notice.

~

[Clopin]

The more important question; what is wrong with porn?

Nothing, of course.


Some people (me included) find it immoral. Mostly due to the fact that I guess some people view it as kinda similar to prostitution.

Immoral? That's a laugh. Pro tip... don't ever discuss whether things are moral or immoral. It always comes off as completely retarded, a piss poor argument; and generally what is seen as moral, when forced on people does society harm.


Nothing wrong with porn as such.
It is how affect some more then others to others that is perhaps wrong.
Some watch porn for pleasure, some get addicted to it and others use it to learn from and put into practice themselves and use via the internet.
I think mixing pleasure and reality can be quite messy at times.

Fatty junk foods affect plenty of people and their children. Do you want these regulated as well? There's a point where the government and the state/other entities will be unable to hold your hand and force you to make the right decisions. Yes there are obese people, yes there are pornography addicts, neither needs to be regulated (beyond criminal offenses like child pornography).


Sure, prostitution is 'voluntary'. But given the choice I'm sure most women would rather be in a different business. I would support the legalization of it simply because it would ultimately protect women more, although I would still be opposed to the business.
And I don't 'frig' (that's a new word xD ) anymore.

Given the choice I would rather be the heir to a fortune or a millionaire advertising executive. I'm sure that a lot of call girls or prostitutes are relatively happy with their career choices and I am sure that others live in squalor and suffer abuses daily (you can thank the over regulation of prostitution for this by the way, and not the act itself).

Volya, you're a kid. I don't think you're stupid but you need to stop getting so indignant whenever someone has a more realistic view of things than you do.

[LaMaga]

I'm reluctant to post on such a heady topic being that I'm a new member, however, I felt the need to speak up, if I may. Excuse any mistakes I still consider English to be my second language.
To compare the accessibility of unhealthy food with the addiction our nation has with pornography and the psychological affects it has not only on the individual, but also on our society as a whole is, with all due respect, one of the most ignorant defenses to porn I have ever heard. Same goes with comparing porn to regular television. Sure, television is evil, and the media is worthless. I myself gave up TV nearly 4 years ago. Meaning no cable whatsoever, but are you telling me that you rather then allow your child watch porn than Disney's Hannah Montana? I honestly doubt that, so I think before we vehemently defend our causes at all cost we should speak seriously.
I speak from experience. I have seen first-hand the effects the sex industry has had on men and women, especially women. I was a prostitute for over 6 years. I was also an exotic dancer before that. I myself never participated in porn films (although I desperately needed the money) because at the time I had a young son, and also a father who was addicted to porn, and I never wanted either of them to ever see me in that situation. I worked in DC, PA (Philly), NYC, NJ, GA, OH, NC, to name a few. I worked for agencies such as Apres Vous, as well as for Logan on 63rd and Lex. if anyone remembers "The Red Room". Back in the day I also worked at peepland on 42nd street back when 42nd street was still the red light district.. So I have seen all different aspects of of the sex industry and have met so many, many women (and men), some of who are still my close dear friends of mine. Many of them succumbed to porn films, and let me tell you, it wasn't something they were proud of. All these girls were deeply damaged. Making a porn movie may look like fun to you from the outside, but actually behind the scenes they are souls who are suffering deeply. No women dreams of growing up and making porn movies unless she has mental problems or absolutely financially has to. Every single girl I knew who made a movie had some sort of screwed up past, that making movies screwed up even more. I know a girl who became a meth addict because she felt like garbage after she started making porn films. She was totally exploited after the film-makers found out about her addiction and most of them never paid her, she now lives from motel to motel and her youth is totally gone. Trust me when I tell you, I know so many working girls, and not one girl who has participated in a film is a happy person without issues of abuse, rape, drug addiction or self esteem issues.
I am not a religious person. I am not expressing myself from a religious pov whatsoever. I'm just giving you the facts of what really happens. I can guarantee you that 99.9% of all "porn stars" have been prostitutes, and take it from me, being a prostitute is nothing to be proud of. Tv may have glamorized being an "exotic dancer", but again, that's just tv. You don't realize the loneliness the shame that comes and haunts you at the end of the night, or when you wake up in the morning, not being able to be honest with people about what you do for a living. i got so tired of lying all the time. Having to hide my costume bag so no one would see it in my car or in my home, especially my son. I'm just giving you a small example of how it affects the women, because I'm not a writer, and i couldn't possibly put into words what I saw in these womens faces and how their lives changed. Some of us were lucky, but it's a scar that is imprinted in you for life. Don't get me started on how porn affects marriages and relationships, not only with wives and girlfriends but also with sons, daughters and careers. I am not saying that porn should be outlawed. No way am I saying that, because that would just be ridiculous, but please, i beg you to please not make light of it, and not to normalize it because it's not normal. You're not in it. It's not your body you're selling. Sure, no one forced me, but I myself grew up in an abusive home, and extremely poor and after I had my son i felt I had no choice. Either that or welfare for life. So before you think about what your own porn needs are remember from someone who lived it firsthand that you're getting pleasure of out of a lot of misery, and tell me, no matter how you cut it it is not good. Again, I don't think porn should be illegal. We should have the freedom to choose what we want to do with our free time, but just because we enjoy, or are addicted to something doesn't mean there's nothing deeply wrong with it in so many ways,and sometimes we have to sacrifice of ourselves, to make the world a better place. I guess you could say that's what prostitutes do when they sell their bodies, they're are sacrificing of themselves to make it better for someone else. Trust me on this. I never met one girl, ever who told me, "I do this because I love to ****". It's a lie. I used to tell clients I did it because I loved to ****, but i was lying all the time. I just said it to get further ahead, to make more money, more tips.

also, there is nothing wrong with the word "morality". Morality is what helps the world we live in a place we can tolerate, a place that is safe. Just like it's immoral to kill a person, well there are many different shades of morality, and it never has to do anything with religion, it has to do with what we all believe in our hearts is right and wrong.

I hope I have not offended anyone with my post. I only hope to open up a more honest dialogue that will help everyone not only understand but think how they can contribute to a better understanding of what porn really means.

[Clopin]

Plenty of people have hard lives.

"the addiction our nation has with pornography and the psychological affects it has not only on the individual, but also on our society as a whole"

What?

[OrphanPip]

I'm largely in agreement with LaMaga, her account agrees with what I've heard from female porn stars first hand. A girl I know started in the industry because she was a 16 year old living on the street, her first scene ended with her having to go to a hospital for vaginal and anal tearing.

I don't think that pornography or prostitution are intrinsically wrong, but the power dynamics that are at play in our society renders these professions exploitative. I am not comfortable with people taking advantage of the vulnerable in these ways. On the other hand, I have encountered one escort (through a women's studies institute in Montreal) who did defend her choice. However, it is important to recognize that these people who at least do not feel degraded by the profession seem to be in the minority.

I have no issue with celebrating erotica, but it becomes problematic when it becomes so heavily commercialized and human beings are reduced to commodities without agency. This October there will be a conference on 1960s erotica in Montreal, and Carolee Scheemann will be the guest star. There are ways for pornography to be produced without the baggage of exploitation. And the increasing freedom of the internet provides ways for people to produce and share erotic films, pictures, stories and other art simply for the sake of the pleasure of it.

[Clopin]

I'm largely in agreement with LaMaga, her account agrees with what I've heard from female porn stars first hand. A girl I know started in the industry because she was a 16 year old living on the street, her first scene ended with her having to go to a hospital for vaginal and anal tearing.

I don't think that pornography or prostitution are intrinsically wrong, but the power dynamics that are at play in our society renders these professions exploitative. I am not comfortable with people taking advantage of the vulnerable in these ways. On the other hand, I have encountered one escort (through a women's studies institute in Montreal) who did defend her choice. However, it is important to recognize that these people who at least do not feel degraded by the profession seem to be in the minority.

I have no issue with celebrating erotica, but it becomes problematic when it becomes so heavily commercialized and human beings are reduced to commodities without agency. This October there will be a conference on 1960s erotica in Montreal, and Carolee Scheemann will be the guest star. There are ways for pornography to be produced without the baggage of exploitation. And the increasing freedom of the internet provides ways for people to produce and share erotic films, pictures, stories and other art simply for the sake of the pleasure of it.

http://jezebel.com/5412733/for-me-pornography-is-performing-sasha-grey-on-sex-work-communication

It's beside the point that some sex workers are exploited or some women involved in porn are unhappy with their decisions.

Oh by the way posting that link wasn't really an attempt to discredit what either of you are saying, just a reminder that pornography and the sex industry is not intrinsically harmful or even necessarily degrading to the women/men involved. However i'ts clear that the reality of the situation is more complex of course.

[LaMaga]

Jezebel magazine..? It's not a publication I'd be quoting from for reliable sources and studies on sexual behavior and the sex industry.
I'm sorry but I really can't respect that article. It's like asking a Jewish person to trust something from a Nazi manual.

[Charles Darnay]

Not......quite

Yes exploitation exists, but the porn industry is not by any means the only one. We should hope for employee fair treatment in any case, there is no need to demonize one outlet

[OrphanPip]

Yes exploitation exists, but the porn industry is not by any means the only one. We should hope for employee fair treatment in any case, there is no need to demonize one outlet

It is one though where it is rampant. The primary consumer doesn't seem to care much about exploiting prostitutes or porn stars.

[LaMaga]

It is one though where it is rampant. The primary consumer doesn't seem to care much about exploiting prostitutes or porn stars. Exactly. It's so self serving, and nothing makes them believe otherwise. It's really one of the most selfish attitudes to have against something that is so obviously socially harmful just to defend their own personal wants.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I'm reluctant to post on such a heady topic being that I'm a new member, however, I felt the need to speak up, if I may. Excuse any mistakes I still consider English to be my second language.
To compare the accessibility of unhealthy food with the addiction our nation has with pornography and the psychological affects it has not only on the individual, but also on our society as a whole is, with all due respect, one of the most ignorant defenses to porn I have ever heard. Same goes with comparing porn to regular television. Sure, television is evil, and the media is worthless. I myself gave up TV nearly 4 years ago. Meaning no cable whatsoever, but are you telling me that you rather then allow your child watch porn than Disney's Hannah Montana? I honestly doubt that, so I think before we vehemently defend our causes at all cost we should speak seriously.
I speak from experience. I have seen first-hand the effects the sex industry has had on men and women, especially women. I was a prostitute for over 6 years. I was also an exotic dancer before that. I myself never participated in porn films (although I desperately needed the money) because at the time I had a young son, and also a father who was addicted to porn, and I never wanted either of them to ever see me in that situation. I worked in DC, PA (Philly), NYC, NJ, GA, OH, NC, to name a few. I worked for agencies such as Apres Vous, as well as for Logan on 63rd and Lex. if anyone remembers "The Red Room". Back in the day I also worked at peepland on 42nd street back when 42nd street was still the red light district.. So I have seen all different aspects of of the sex industry and have met so many, many women (and men), some of who are still my close dear friends of mine. Many of them succumbed to porn films, and let me tell you, it wasn't something they were proud of. All these girls were deeply damaged. Making a porn movie may look like fun to you from the outside, but actually behind the scenes they are souls who are suffering deeply. No women dreams of growing up and making porn movies unless she has mental problems or absolutely financially has to. Every single girl I knew who made a movie had some sort of screwed up past, that making movies screwed up even more. I know a girl who became a meth addict because she felt like garbage after she started making porn films. She was totally exploited after the film-makers found out about her addiction and most of them never paid her, she now lives from motel to motel and her youth is totally gone. Trust me when I tell you, I know so many working girls, and not one girl who has participated in a film is a happy person without issues of abuse, rape, drug addiction or self esteem issues.
I am not a religious person. I am not expressing myself from a religious pov whatsoever. I'm just giving you the facts of what really happens. I can guarantee you that 99.9% of all "porn stars" have been prostitutes, and take it from me, being a prostitute is nothing to be proud of. Tv may have glamorized being an "exotic dancer", but again, that's just tv. You don't realize the loneliness the shame that comes and haunts you at the end of the night, or when you wake up in the morning, not being able to be honest with people about what you do for a living. i got so tired of lying all the time. Having to hide my costume bag so no one would see it in my car or in my home, especially my son. I'm just giving you a small example of how it affects the women, because I'm not a writer, and i couldn't possibly put into words what I saw in these womens faces and how their lives changed. Some of us were lucky, but it's a scar that is imprinted in you for life. Don't get me started on how porn affects marriages and relationships, not only with wives and girlfriends but also with sons, daughters and careers. I am not saying that porn should be outlawed. No way am I saying that, because that would just be ridiculous, but please, i beg you to please not make light of it, and not to normalize it because it's not normal. You're not in it. It's not your body you're selling. Sure, no one forced me, but I myself grew up in an abusive home, and extremely poor and after I had my son i felt I had no choice. Either that or welfare for life. So before you think about what your own porn needs are remember from someone who lived it firsthand that you're getting pleasure of out of a lot of misery, and tell me, no matter how you cut it it is not good. Again, I don't think porn should be illegal. We should have the freedom to choose what we want to do with our free time, but just because we enjoy, or are addicted to something doesn't mean there's nothing deeply wrong with it in so many ways,and sometimes we have to sacrifice of ourselves, to make the world a better place. I guess you could say that's what prostitutes do when they sell their bodies, they're are sacrificing of themselves to make it better for someone else. Trust me on this. I never met one girl, ever who told me, "I do this because I love to ****". It's a lie. I used to tell clients I did it because I loved to ****, but i was lying all the time. I just said it to get further ahead, to make more money, more tips.

also, there is nothing wrong with the word "morality". Morality is what helps the world we live in a place we can tolerate, a place that is safe. Just like it's immoral to kill a person, well there are many different shades of morality, and it never has to do anything with religion, it has to do with what we all believe in our hearts is right and wrong.

I hope I have not offended anyone with my post. I only hope to open up a more honest dialogue that will help everyone not only understand but think how they can contribute to a better understanding of what porn really means.

This is a very compelling argument indeed . . . but, looking at it from a rhetorical perspective, some things really hurt your credibility, imo. Such as:

"Television is evil, and the media is worthless." Really? How is television evil? Because some people watch it too much? And the media as a whole is worthless? Sure, the media is messed up, but it still serves a valuable service (especially when one decides not to look at the 24 hours news networks). I know these aren't directly connected to your arguments about the sex industry, but I call in to question the judgement of anyone who throws out blanket statements like these as if they were universally agreed upon.

I can't help but question your motivations in condemning the whole of the sex industry. Does it take advantage of women? Yes. Even most women in the industry? I'm still betting yes. But 99.9%? Come on. Not only is that a clear exaggeration, there's no possible way you could know that for a fact.

It seems most of your condemnation on the industry lies in your perceptions--what you saw on women's faces, how they acted like they were fine but they really weren't (how do you know they weren't actually fine?), and all these emotionally charged words . . . loneliness, shame, etc. It's all just so subjective.

I've heard arguments from both sides (as in women arguing for both sides who were in the industry) that have been just as compelling.

I'm also curious, what constitutes and addiction to porn? I'd say I watch it an average of 5 nights a week, maybe a half hour a time. Am I addicted?

I also think it's easy to generalize the viewers of porn. I don't watch it because I like seeing women objectified. I watch it because I want to be aroused and am too lazy to use my imagination. I hate porn where the woman is abused or is clearly not enjoying it. And, yes, I know many of them are acting, but I highly doubt all of them are, or else the industry is filled with potential Oscar winners.

[stlukesguild]

To compare the accessibility of unhealthy food with the addiction our nation has with pornography and the psychological affects it has not only on the individual, but also on our society as a whole is, with all due respect, one of the most ignorant defenses to porn I have ever heard.

Actually, I think the analogy is quite sound in that what was being suggested is that we have access to many things in our society that taken in excess or abused can endanger us. The further point being to raise the question as to whether or not we need or want the government acting as our "Mommy" and legislating controls on how much adults consume of legal commodities such as food... or pornography.

...are you telling me that you rather then allow your child watch porn than Disney's Hannah Montana?

You're just setting up a false dichotomy here. The question isn't whether pornography isn't whether pornography or TV or excessive eating of "junk food" is worse for minors. Most adults understand that there are things that we may enjoy as adults that should be restricted to minors... including not only pornography, but also alcohol, and exposure to excessive violence and profanity.

I speak from experience. I have seen first-hand the effects the sex industry has had on men and women, especially women.

No women dreams of growing up and making porn movies unless she has mental problems or absolutely financially has to. Every single girl I knew who made a movie had some sort of screwed up past...

While I sympathize... personal anecdotes aren't exactly likely to change the whole of ingrained human behavior. Nor is the fact that a given profession is degrading. I would suspect that their are degrading aspects to a great many forms of employment. Again... what are you calling for? Censorship? Who do we give this power to... and where do we draw the line as to what is or is not "pornographic"?

I am not saying that porn should be outlawed. No way am I saying that, because that would just be ridiculous, but please, i beg you to please not make light of it, and not to normalize it because it's not normal.

I don't know how to define "normal" but I would suspect that lust and Scopophilia... Voyeurism... or the erotic pleasure derived from looking... looking at naked bodies (or partially clothed) or photographs, or films, etc... is actually quite "normal" among a huge majority of the population.

Again, I don't think porn should be illegal. We should have the freedom to choose what we want to do with our free time, but just because we enjoy, or are addicted to something doesn't mean there's nothing deeply wrong with it in so many ways,and sometimes we have to sacrifice of ourselves, to make the world a better place.

You seem to be calling upon the audience of pornography to place some high moral concept above their own desires... and I doubt that such is likely to occur. Look at us as a consumer culture. We want our cheap clothes, and cheap toys and cheap electronics and cheap food... and even if we are aware of the consequences of of excessive desires: the sweat shops in Asia and the millions malnourished while we guzzle another "Big Gulp" and slobber down a double cheeseburger... we are not likely to place our altruism above our own desires.

...also, there is nothing wrong with the word "morality". Morality is what helps the world we live in a place we can tolerate, a place that is safe. Just like it's immoral to kill a person, well there are many different shades of morality, and it never has to do anything with religion, it has to do with what we all believe in our hearts is right and wrong.

But the reality is that human desire ever trumps morality.

OrpanPip- The primary consumer doesn't seem to care much about exploiting prostitutes or porn stars.

LaMaga- Exactly. It's so self serving, and nothing makes them believe otherwise. It's really one of the most selfish attitudes to have against something that is so obviously socially harmful just to defend their own personal wants.

The consumer... humanity... is selfish. We all deal with the consequences of this reality.

[Charles Darnay]

Exactly. It's so self serving, and nothing makes them believe otherwise. It's really one of the most selfish attitudes to have against something that is so obviously socially harmful just to defend their own personal wants.

Again, you can apply this to such a wide array. And I don't think porn (particularly porn in North America, for I'm pretty sure that is what has been under discussion here) is more rampant than other exploited areas

Take sweatshops as the obvious example. Or any company that exploits workers by paying the most minimal wages possible. Much of what we consume comes from such a scenario. Very few people would be exempt from your classification of selfishness in the face of socially harmful situations.

I am not defending the pron industry per se: I personally don't give a crap about porn, or prostitutes from a consumer standpoint. But certain unfortunate exploitation (which I agree are harmful and should be looked at in its own right) does not need to demonize an in of itself legitimate business.

[JuniperWoolf]

It would work best if there were strong legal systems in place to protect sex workers, and heavy regulation for corporations which produce pornography or run brothels &c. Also, social programs to help sex workers who go down a dark path are necessary. That's the best way to go about it in my opinion, making it illegal is obviously stupid but to allow the sex trade to operate with complete freedom is even more stupid. We're talking about a market which literally deals in the physical bodies of human beings, it's operation must be rigerously controlled.

[LaMaga]

I sort of knew this was going to go this way. This is what a lot of men do ALL the time when the subject is brought up. They try to find holes in your story. They question every detail of every argument you try to make on the subject. It's such a sophist attitude. That's exactly what it is. It's very pathetic and desperate. I have gone through this same exact thing countless times when I try to explain how harmful porn can be in general for our society.. Am i talking about any one person? no. I'm talking about the effects it has on society. I am using my own experience and the arrogance to still question it and then dismiss it is the struggle women in this business are faced with everyday. It is so extremely selfish and self-serving.

I'm scratching my head as to how you don't know what the definition of "addiction" is.



Addictions can include, but are not limited to, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, exercise abuse, pornography and gambling. Classic hallmarks of addiction include: impaired control over substances/behavior, preoccupation with substance/behavior, continued use despite consequences, and denial.[3] Habits and patterns associated with addiction are typically characterized by immediate gratification (short-term reward), coupled with delayed deleterious effects (long-term costs).[4] Physiological dependence occurs when the body has to adjust to the substance by incorporating the substance into its 'normal' functioning.[5] This state creates the conditions of tolerance and withdrawal. Tolerance is the process by which the body continually adapts to the substance and requires increasingly larger amounts to achieve the original effects. Withdrawal refers to physical and psychological symptoms people experience when reducing or discontinuing a substance the body had become dependent on. Symptoms of withdrawal generally include but are not limited to anxiety, irritability, intense cravings for the substance, nausea, hallucinations, headaches, cold sweats, and tremors.


Addiction is not about how often you perform an act, but the inability to function without it. 5 nights a week. Oh my goodness. It amazes me that people don't think that that's not addiction or dependency, because I won't use the word "normal" since porn has sadly become mainstream. However, if 75% of our population became drug addicts, I still wouldn't call that "normal", it's just mainstream.


Many men make no effort whatsoever to explore porn addiction or dependency. They simply don't want to know. It's just too scary for them. If they admitted it to themselves they would have to face the fact that something about them is shameful and embarrassing. they hide it like children. I mean if there's nothing wrong with it, why hide it from people? why sneak it. Only when men's relationships are threatened (when they're found out) is when they seek help.

Again, I'm not saying porn shouldn't exist. I'm addressing the question about "addiction". Would you ever admit to yourself that you're an addict of porn? no. Why? because an addict never believes that what he's doing wrong is a problem.


Again, you can apply this to such a wide array. And I don't think porn (particularly porn in North America, for I'm pretty sure that is what has been under discussion here) is more rampant than other exploited areas

Take sweatshops as the obvious example. Or any company that exploits workers by paying the most minimal wages possible. Much of what we consume comes from such a scenario. Very few people would be exempt from your classification of selfishness in the face of socially harmful situations.

I am not defending the pron industry per se: I personally don't give a crap about porn, or prostitutes from a consumer standpoint. But certain unfortunate exploitation (which I agree are harmful and should be looked at in its own right) does not need to demonize an in of itself legitimate business.

But two wrongs don't make a right. We are all trying to eliminate many forms of exploitation. If I know that K-mart uses sweatshops, I don't know about you, but I would personally boycott them. I wouldn't knowingly continue to use their product after knowing they exploit employees.

legitimate business? I guess sweatshops are legitimate businesses too simply because they exist?

[stlukesguild]

They would be if there were strong legal systems in place to protect them, and heavy regulation for corporations which produce pornography or run brothels &c. Also, social programs to help sex workers who go down a dark path are necessary. That's the best way to go about it in my opinion, making it illegal is obviously stupid but to allow the sex trade to operate with complete freedom is even more stupid. We're talking about a market which literally deals in the physical bodies of human beings, it's operation must be rigerously controlled.

OK... I gotta go have a beer. This is like the second time in as many weeks I have found myself in full agreement with Juniper... so there obviously must be something wrong here.:shocked:

[JuniperWoolf]

Addiction is not about how often you perform an act, but the inability to function without it. 5 nights a week. Oh my goodness. It amazes me that people don't think that that's not addiction or dependency, because I won't use the word "normal" since porn has sadly become mainstream. However, if 75% of our population became drug addicts, I still wouldn't call that "normal", it's just mainstream.


Many men make no effort whatsoever to explore porn addiction or dependency. They simply don't want to know. It's just too scary for them. If they admitted it to themselves they would have to face the fact that something about them is shameful and embarrassing. they hide it like children. I mean if there's nothing wrong with it, why hide it from people? why sneak it. Only when men's relationships are threatened (when they're found out) is when they seek help.

Again, I'm not saying porn shouldn't exist. I'm addressing the question about "addiction". Would you ever admit to yourself that you're an addict of porn? no. Why? because an addict never believes that what he's doing wrong is a problem.

Addiction must be uncontrollably compulsive, and must affect your life negatively. It could only be argued that it's an "addiction" if you spend an excessive amount of time with pornography, to the point where you neglect everything else and your life suffers. The key is that it makes your life worse and you do it anyway, even though it hurts you in some way. Watching porn or reading an erotic book for a half hour before bed every night is hardly an addiction.

I don't know where you're from, but being "found out" isn't really a thing here. It's expected that nearly everone masturbates, and that the majority of them use erotic material to do so. I've never met anyone who wasn't cool with the fact that their partner masturbates.


OK... I gotta go have a beer. This is like the second time in as many weeks I have found myself in full agreement with Juniper... so there obviously must be something wrong here.:shocked:

Haha, you could always switch sides, be totally anti-porn. :D

[LaMaga]

The discussion in this thread right here is a perfect example of how males aggressively dominate and defend this topic to the death. No matter how unreasonable or ridiculous some of the comparisons. Notice how they grasp to compare the sex industry to anything they can to justify it. It's like clock work. It has already been compared with food, sweatshops, and television. They can never just argue the topic on it's own. You just have to walk away and feel sorry for this disgusting attitude. Like I said, I'm not religious at all, but when you bring up this topic in a room full of men it's like demons rising from the gates of hell, grasping for shreds of justification. I really wish you could see how you all seem. It's scary, hopeless, and sad.
I wish more people would stand up to this forceful attitude more often and steady.


Addiction must be uncontrollably compulsive, and must affect your life negatively. It could only be argued that it's an "addiction" if you spend an excessive amount of time with pornography, to the point where you neglect everything else and your life suffers. The key is that it makes your life worse.

And I don't know where you're from, but being "found out" isn't really a thing here. It's expected that nearly everone masturbates, and that the majority of them use erotic material to do so. I've never met anyone who wasn't cool with the fact that their partner masturbates.



Haha, you could always switch sides, be totally anti-porn. :D So you're redefining the definition of the word "addiction"? that's rich.

We're not talking about masturbation. Don't try to do that. We're talking specifically about the affects that porn has on society, and then we began discussing the definition of personal addiction.

[OrphanPip]

The consumer... humanity... is selfish. We all deal with the consequences of this reality.

Well that's just a platitude, stlukes. It hardly addresses the need for the actual realization in the public conscience that the industry is indeed exploitative and harmful in a number of ways.

It is more than just tight regulation that is needed. There already is extremely tight regulation in the US, but not designed well. The amelioration of these conditions can't be won through law alone; it has to involve a cultural change in attitude where an awareness of the harm can actually reduce consumption too. Make it less glitzy and chic in the public eye at least.

[Charles Darnay]

Can we stop the whole "you have a penis therefore you're an insensitive ***" thing? It doesn't help your point. Males being exploited in the sex trade is a thing as well - but that's beside the point.

And what is wrong with analogies in rhetoric?

[JuniperWoolf]

The discussion in this thread right here is a perfect example of how males aggressively dominate and defend this topic to the death.

I'm female and your views on this subject don't reflect mine.

To be clear: you believe that pornography and prostitution is all bad and that it should be illegal, even if a system were in place which had strict regulation, in an effort to completely stamp the sex trade out of existance?

[stlukesguild]

I sort of knew this was going to go this way. This is what a lot of men do ALL the time when the subject is brought up. They try to find holes in your story. They question every detail of every argument you try to make on the subject. It's such a sophist attitude. That's exactly what it is. It's very pathetic and desperate. I have gone through this same exact thing countless times when I try to explain how harmful porn can be in general for our society.. Am i talking about any one person? no. I'm talking about the effects it has on society. I am using my own experience and the arrogance to still question it and then dismiss it is the struggle women in this business are faced with everyday. It is so extremely selfish and self-serving.

You are accusing the audience or the consumer of being selfish and self-serving with the notion that somehow this will shame them. Undoubtedly you are right. The audience... and the consumer is unquestionably selfish... but not likely to feel the least bit of shame or remorse... certainly no more than the consumer who purchases cheap clothes or computers or cell phones made in Asian and Latin-American sweat-shops or the consumer who orders that double cheese burger "Biggie sized" while millions go to sleep tonight without anything to eat.

Many men make no effort whatsoever to explore porn addiction or dependency. They simply don't want to know.

Why would they?

It's just too scary for them. If they admitted it to themselves they would have to face the fact that something about them is shameful and embarrassing. they hide it like children.

You are making a lot of assumptions, here... and moral judgments.

I mean if there's nothing wrong with it, why hide it from people? why sneak it.

Sexuality... or rather the open discussion of sexuality as whole has a certain taboo about it... especially in the US. There's almost something "schizophrenic" about a culture that is both sex obsessed... and yet attaches a level of shame of stigma to the same.

Again, I'm not saying porn shouldn't exist. I'm addressing the question about "addiction". Would you ever admit to yourself that you're an addict of porn? no. Why? because an addict never believes that what he's doing wrong is a problem.

Addiction to pornography would be defined as a behavioral addiction. Behavioral addictions are defined as behavioral addiction "a compulsion to repeatedly engage in an action until said action causes serious negative consequences to the person's physical, mental, social, and/or financial well-being, and a persistence in engaging in these activities in spite of such negative consequences."

For you to define others as "porn addicts" you would need to prove that their engagement and enjoyment of pornography is in fact causing serious negative consequences to the person's physical, mental, social, and/or financial well-being.

Haha, you could always switch sides, be totally anti-porn.:D

I'd have to start by rethinking my whole approach to my own art work... no more of these nude paintings. Perhaps I could paint apples, romantic sunsets, and cute babies... No... that ain't gonna work.:sick:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, Juniper is a woman, so this isn't totally male dominated.

This is a message board, LaMaga. When you write your ideas here, expect them to be challenged. If you don't want them challenged, go make a blog and turn the option for people to comment off.

You rant that we are the ones being aggressive and dominating here, yet you're the one making sweeping generalizations about each of us, while simultaneously being insulting (implying we're weak, insensitive, etc.).

I don't think I'm addicted to porn. As stlukes put it, it's not "causing serious negative consequences to my physical, mental, social, and/or financial well-being." The five nights a week thing is an average (and, honestly, I'm surprised you think it's a lot--I think it's quite normal for a single man). I'll go a week without watching. Sometimes I'll watch it twice a day (oh my god, I'm such a disgusting, insensitive pervert contributing to the downfall of humanity). You're also making a lot of assumptions, like I'm ashamed that I watch it. I'm not. My friends know I watch it--hell, we even discuss it sometimes. My family doesn't, but I honestly wouldn't care if they found out (I know, you're going to claim I'm in denial--believe what you will).

You obviously have a close connection to this topic, LaMaga, as it's clear you can't discuss it or even read contrary opinions on it without becoming immediately combattive. The fact is that you made faulty, illogical, and therefore unconvincing arguments. This board doesn't take well to preaching, so if your goal is to stand on a pedestal and wag your finger at us, I suggest doing it somewhere else.

[stlukesguild]

It is more than just tight regulation that is needed. There already is extremely tight regulation in the US, but not designed well. The amelioration of these conditions can't be won through law alone; it has to involve a cultural change in attitude where an awareness of the harm can actually reduce consumption too. Make it less glitzy and chic in the public eye at least.

Come on, Pip... Prostitution is not called the oldest profession for nothing... and pornography goes back how far? To the Greeks... the Egyptians... Cave paintings? How do you imagine we stigmatize or take the glitz out of sex? You're not calling for a change in culture but a change in the whole of human behavior.

[JuniperWoolf]

Okay. Another bad analogy: you know how some household products have "does not test on animals" labels on them? Is there anything like that in the porn world? Like, a "does not use forced crackhead prostitutes" stamp of guarantee, or a company which consistantly provides "humane" pornography? One way of causing a shift in cultural attitude would be to not say "porn is bad, don't watch it" (because that doesn't work), but rather to say "THIS porn is bad, try this one instead."

[stlukesguild]

Sort of like filtered cigarettes and lite beer?:shocked:

[OrphanPip]

Come on, Pip... Prostitution is not called the oldest profession for nothing... and pornography goes back how far? To the Greeks... the Egyptians... Cave paintings? How do you imagine we stigmatize or take the glitz out of sex? You're not calling for a change in culture but a change in the whole of human behavior.

I wouldn't underestimate the force of public perception, look at how quickly smoking has declined in a single decade. There is a problem when the predominant perception of the porn industry is one of glamour and fun, when in all honesty most of it is pretty ugly business.

I'm in no way under the impression that people will stop producing or watching porn. However, there are ways that the production can be improved and rendered less exploitative. As I mentioned before, it is possible to put the means of production actually in the hands of the actresses, which is increasingly possible due to web 2.0 sites and the relative inexpensive nature of film equipment these days.


Okay. Another bad analogy: you know how some household products have "does not test on animals" labels on them? Is there anything like that in the porn world? Like, a "does not use forced crackhead prostitutes" stamp of guarantee, or a company which consistantly provides "humane" pornography? One way of causing a shift in cultural attitude would be to not say "porn is bad, don't watch it" (because that doesn't work), but rather to say "THIS porn is bad, try this one instead."

You beat me to it. And it actually exists in the gay porn world where a lot of the major studio stuff has switched over to condoms only (which they advertise) because of the pressure from AIDS activist in the community.

[JuniperWoolf]

Sort of like filtered cigarettes and lite beer?

Well not really, the content would still be the same, the difference would be in the treatment of the employees.

[stlukesguild]

I think that in a way the question that Juniper raises... as far of "levels of pornography" leads us to the question of just how do we define pornography? Where do we draw the line? Is it all F*** films... or just those involving violence and degradation (and how do we define that?). Or do we include photographs? Is a Playboy Centerfold to be defined as pornography? If so... then what of a nude by one of the "old masters"?

[Clopin]

It took about three posts before Lamaga started crying "male privilege". Pathetic.

[stlukesguild]

I wouldn't underestimate the force of public perception, look at how quickly smoking has declined in a single decade.

The primary difference with regard to smoking is that there was a clear danger to the consumer. I don't see this with pornography. Once medical science proved without a doubt the links between smoking and various illnesses, it opened the door to major litigation. While we have done much to curtail smoking among the native US population, we have no problem allowing the same cigarette industry to dump the things on China and India and Latin-America with no concerns about health or safety at all.

There is a problem when the predominant perception of the porn industry is one of glamour and fun, when in all honesty most of it is pretty ugly business.

I have no doubt that it is a sleazy and exploitative industry. I doubt whether the consumer really cares how the product is made any more than he cares how his or her cheap clothes and electronics are made.

I'm in no way under the impression that people will stop producing or watching porn. However, there are ways that the production can be improved and rendered less exploitative.

I fully agree, here... but we're talking about regulation again

As I mentioned before, it is possible to put the means of production actually in the hands of the actresses, which is increasingly possible due to web 2.0 sites and the relative inexpensive nature of film equipment these days.

I have little doubt that there are some instances of this occurring... but will it really eliminate the exploitative middle-man... the producer/money-man? As an artist I would love it if all the gallery directors in the US suddenly fell over dead and as an artist I could return to the era in which artists had a direct relationship with the patrons... rather than being at the mercy of the exploitative middle-men... but I doubt that will happen either.

You beat me to it. And it actually exists in the gay porn world where a lot of the major studio stuff has switched over to condoms only (which they advertise) because of the pressure from AIDS activist in the community.

And I know within the realm of hetero porno films there is something marketed as "female friendly" porno... which employs couples and avoids abusive and violent porn. But how do we deal with the fact that there will always be that audience... that consumer who wants "bareback" sex... or violent ****-ing?

[Clopin]

ha ha ha, I remember that during grades one through nine or so of public school we would routinely watch anti smoking videos and be subject to intense anti smoking campaigns. The result of that effort is that I've smoked all of six cigarettes in my entire life, despite my very liberal views on drug use in general and the fact that I've used practically every recreational drug available at one time or other.

That doesn't make any sense regarding porn though. Smoking isn't exactly a powerful natural urge, or even a means to escape reality.

[JuniperWoolf]

And I know within the realm of hetero porno films there is something marketed as "female friendly" porno... which employs couples and avoids abusive and violent porn. But how do we deal with the fact that there will always be that audience... that consumer who wants "bareback" sex... or violent ****-ing?

Well, it wouldn't be the way they **** that changes, you could still have depictions of dominance and submission, harcore, any sort of fetish, &c. The content of the films could be anything, that's not what's being examined - it's the workforce that's being looked into, the employees.

It'd be like how in order for a chicken farm to label it's eggs free-range, some independant organization (possably even government run, like in the UK) would come around and inspect everything, then be like "yep, that's free-range alright." The eggs get a label and people then like to buy eggs with that label, because although they're going to be eating eggs anyway because eggs are really good, now they eat eggs that cause less suffering. In this case, there would be someone inspecting for quality of life for the workforce, make sure they're not abused or addicted or sex slaves. If they're not, the film makers get a "does not depict crack-addicted sex slaves" label, which people would then buy - because watching porn is really good, but this way, you get to watch anything you could possibly desire and yet still know that you're promoting healthy, safe production. If people started buying "humane" porn then demand changes and the market itself would change. It would work for a company too, if many, many people started buying porn from Company A because they are known for their clean and humane methods of producing films, then other companies would change their methods so that people would buy their product.

[Volya]

If they managed to control prostitution and porn so that nobody involved was being abused or exploited, I would be okay with the business. As long as nobody is getting hurt, I don't care if they make it. I would still have no part it in myself, but I wouldn't mind other people doing it/watching it.

[Alexander III]

Okay. Another bad analogy: you know how some household products have "does not test on animals" labels on them? Is there anything like that in the porn world? Like, a "does not use forced crackhead prostitutes" stamp of guarantee, or a company which consistantly provides "humane" pornography? One way of causing a shift in cultural attitude would be to not say "porn is bad, don't watch it" (because that doesn't work), but rather to say "THIS porn is bad, try this one instead."

It's called a High Definition video quality.

[Alexander III]

It'd be like how in order for a chicken farm to label it's eggs free-range, some independant organization (possably even government run, like in the UK) would come around and inspect everything, then be like "yep, that's free-range alright." The eggs get a label and people then like to buy eggs with that label, because although they're going to be eating eggs anyway because eggs are really good, now they eat eggs that cause less suffering. In this case, there would be someone inspecting for quality of life for the workforce, make sure they're not abused or addicted or sex slaves. If they're not, the film makers get a "does not depict crack-addicted sex slaves" label, which people would then buy - because watching porn is really good, but this way, you get to watch anything you could possibly desire and yet still know that you're promoting healthy, safe production. If people started buying "humane" porn then demand changes and the market itself would change. It would work for a company too, if many, many people started buying porn from Company A because they are known for their clean and humane methods of producing films, then other companies would change their methods so that people would buy their product.

That won't work, if the humane porn requires payment while the inhumane one is free - guess who is gonna win?

[JBI]

I am in china and see what a disease censorship is. Clean up your children through education if you don't want them looking at porn. As it is, it probably would be healthier if they saw it anyway.

As for the industry itself, I bet the recent developments in the Internet have taken much of the sleaze out of it. Anyone with a camera can make a porno. There are many high paid actors, and many females in the highest ranks of production. Physical violence and violent sex are a niche for a specific consumer, whereas most people just want to see a hot couple **** I would imagine. Besides, Japan is the worlds largest porn producer, as well as the worlds largest Child pornography producer. If you want to clean porn up develop local industries that offer an alternative, as from my understanding Japanese pornographic tastes range from the strange to the down right sickening, with every disgusting thing in between. If the Americans haven't filmed it the Japanese have. And that isn't to say the female actors are not well paid, or better paid than their male counterparts.

The idea of the crack-dealer male porn director and the abused drug addict woman is only true on one level, and probably less and less true. I bet directors would look for a more reliable, less drug abusing actor when casting and investing money. There is no shortage of women trying to get involved in porn.

[Pierre Menard]

I sort of knew this was going to go this way. This is what a lot of men do ALL the time when the subject is brought up. They try to find holes in your story. They question every detail of every argument you try to make on the subject. It's such a sophist attitude. That's exactly what it is. It's very pathetic and desperate. I have gone through this same exact thing countless times when I try to explain how harmful porn can be in general for our society.. Am i talking about any one person? no. I'm talking about the effects it has on society. I am using my own experience and the arrogance to still question it and then dismiss it is the struggle women in this business are faced with everyday. It is so extremely selfish and self-serving.

I'm scratching my head as to how you don't know what the definition of "addiction" is.


I'm sorry, but this is bull****. Did it ever occur to you that maybe they just disagree with you? I mean, if you're going to sit back and paint any one that disagrees with you as selfish and self-serving, then why on earth are they going to bother listening to you? Maybe you need to start being open to what other people have to say before expecting other people to automatically lap up your spiel.

[Clopin]

I am in china and see what a disease censorship is. Clean up your children through education if you don't want them looking at porn. As it is, it probably would be healthier if they saw it anyway.

As for the industry itself, I bet the recent developments in the Internet have taken much of the sleaze out of it. Anyone with a camera can make a porno. There are many high paid actors, and many females in the highest ranks of production. Physical violence and violent sex are a niche for a specific consumer, whereas most people just want to see a hot couple **** I would imagine. Besides, Japan is the worlds largest porn producer, as well as the worlds largest Child pornography producer. If you want to clean porn up develop local industries that offer an alternative, as from my understanding Japanese pornographic tastes range from the strange to the down right sickening, with every disgusting thing in between. If the Americans haven't filmed it the Japanese have. And that isn't to say the female actors are not well paid, or better paid than their male counterparts.

The idea of the crack-dealer male porn director and the abused drug addict woman is only true on one level, and probably less and less true. I bet directors would look for a more reliable, less drug abusing actor when casting and investing money. There is no shortage of women trying to get involved in porn.

Did you read that one of the Chinese television networks censored Michelangelos David a little while ago when it appeared on TV in China?

[JBI]

Did you read that one of the Chinese television networks censored Michelangelos David a little while ago when it appeared on TV in China?

Yes, I read that. This country is run by idiots. Their idea of cultural education is a lesson on why they are the best country in the world. I just took a class where the teacher was instructing on how to indoctrinate foreigners with Chinese propaganda. I have seen it all, trust me, it is sickening.

As for censoring David, they are just a bunch of idiots with no taste. The average Chinese person's taste is assembled through price tags rather than actual aesthetics, so it is not uncommon to see the most hideously matched, designed and worn expensive Prada items on a ghoulish looking woman who has had too much work done on her face here. Chinese people only look at the brand when buying, so they are told it is Italy's most famous statue, but do not know why, and cannot appreciate it, hence why they censor it, even though the penis on David is hardly a realistic depiction of male genitalia.

[LaMaga]

It took about three posts before Lamaga started crying "male privilege". Pathetic.

And it took only one post for you to make the idiotic comparison between porn and unhealthy foods, which I think is even more pathetic because it's evident you're grasping for straws. I don't have the time to sit down and address each and every post being that I have 2 jobs, and would prefer not to waste the limited time I have arguing a topic that is so hopeless, among so many people who are clearly in denial. If and when i have the time I'd like to come back and address them all one by one, with an open mind. I'm not trying to be right, but you can bet your bottom dollar that there will always be a person who is salivating at the mouth, literally dripping fangs waiting to imply you're misandrist. It's just such an expected response. I can count at least 5 most common arguments men and women both offer to defend the exploitation of women in porn and prostitution. Just because you're a woman who agrees with porn doesn't make it any better. Some women have the idea that since they're a female they have a right to give it the pass, since THEY are ok with it, and no, it still doesn't make it ok. It's pathetic.
You know, if men and women both admitted to themselves and to others, hey, I know this exploits women, I know I'm getting pleasure out of someone else's suffering and possibly misery, but I just can't stop, won't stop because I need or want this, then it wouldn't be so bad

.... btw, it does occur to me that some people disagree with my pov, another calssic response often thrown into the topic of porn.. This is a "discussion" and I think it's obvious that not everyone is going to agree, so to say something stupid, like "Did it ever occur to you that people will disagree with you?" is half-witted.
I posted my story not for sympathy, but for insight, but some of the responses are so incredibly insensitive that it only serves to prove the kind of humans that would defend porn and incredibly stand behind it knowing what it really is all about. Isn't that why it's such a turn on? because of the exploitation of women, and mans need to dominate, or a woman's need to be dominated? Sex is not bad. I myself love sex. It's actually a beautiful thing, but sadly, many men today will never realize what true intimacy is like, because they are lazy and rather jerk off to porn. Many marriages and relationships will suffer because the spouse will choose porn over them. Yet this is something they will never admit it until it's too late, and it the relationship does indeed fail, they will defend their choice by saying such things as, it's my god given right, or I have a right to privacy, I have a right to hide things, I have a right to have my own "private space". The most bitter of men like Clopin, are the kind that you can almost bet has already lost valuable relationships due to this addiction, and that is the reason he is so embittered by women like me who don't really see the positive side of porn. He seems like the kind of person who had to fight with a gf or wife to defend his sickness and now venom comes out of him if someone so much as bring it up. I'm very familiar with that kind. It's classic response to someone who was once shamed because of it. Just remember, just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't make you the right one. I'm still shaking my head that he quoted Jezebel. You have to kind of laugh at the ignorance. I could almost tell his age by that alone. Never in our society, or anyone else's for that matter have people vehemently and openly defended something that is obviously harmful to other human beings out of pure selfishness. It's truly disheartening and disturbing.
I have to go now but I will try to respond to the other posts if I can.

[Alexander III]

3 general points:

1) I think most men will acknowledge that the majority of porn actors are severely damaged people and unfortunate creatures. Much like most men will acknowledge that half of everything made in their house was built by an abused and under-payed third world child, man or woman who lives in conditions which we would not deem fit for our beasts. I cannot speak on behalf of all men, but Personally I as a consumer of porn, prostitutes and a large amount of superfluous consumer good which sustain the economic backbone that western capitalism is founded upon; I, am ok with the fact that there are the privileged and the underprivileged. Some are born blessed by the gods and some cursed. That is the way of things. A lion cub is killed by a new pride leader and an African child dies of starvation while I have a four-course meal. A new tree sprouts and an ancient one is felled. Men cannot control the way of the world, merely accept it and appreciate the harmony of such things while they continue to pursue pleasure or wealth or whatever it is that stirs their little hearts.

2) Not to be cruel but, let us take me and you. I am a normal healthy 20 year old who has had various sexual experiences and is at ease with his sexual desires. You are an ex-prostitute, who seems to be pretty emotionally scarred from the experience. Between the two of us, who is more likely to have a healthy and rational relationship with sexual-desire. You accuse men of not feeling ashamed for their abnormality, can we agree that you may have developed a skewed sense of normal/abnormal after many years of working in a job where you seem to have been heavily emotionally abused to say the least. The same can be said for your concept of shame.

3) There are a lot of fvcked up men. I am intimately acquainted with several such specimens whose sexual desires are disturbing. But the majority of men are quite normal, they watch porn to masturbate because an orgasm is pleasing and relaxing to the mind and body. If a man prefers to watch porn than fvck his wife, the fault is neither the porn nor the man, let's face it, the woman has most likely let herself go and the man no longer finds her attractive. Most men have a perfectly normal sexual tendencies, and easy access to porn has unfortunately made many of the ugliest or irksome women redundant. I do not wish to speak for all men; but there are many of woman whom I have fvuked and in retrospect I wish I had just stayed at home watched some porn and jacked off instead of having gone to bed with said women.

[OrphanPip]

That won't work, if the humane porn requires payment while the inhumane one is free - guess who is gonna win?

In what way would the market forces be different? Anyway, the primary issue with implementing such efforts is the compartmentalization of porn marketing, everything is categorized for niche so everyone can avoid/find their various turn ons/offs.

Porn production is also becoming something that is increasingly outsourced to the Czech Republic and Brazil, where the content can be produced for even lower cost and with less regulatory problems. Major porn companies in the US were shut down by the FBI only a couple years ago over crack downs about age records. The government is quite capable of regulating the mainstream porn companies, and the companies themselves are obsessive about meeting legal standards in the US. If legislation was passed to improve working conditions it would do a lot. A change in taste in the market towards a more humane production would also motivate the industry to comply.

As to your three points, they are respectively asinine, condescending, and irrelevant.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

The amount of assumptions LaMaga can make in one post is quite astounding. She must be clairvoyant.

Frankly, LaMaga, the idea that you could discuss this subject with an open mind is laughable. People simply disputed your points. We didn't insult you or anything like that. And from that, we are addicted and pathetic, among any other number of pejoratively you've used.

Hopefully others will join me in disregarding anything you have to say until you can be at least polite.

(And, Alex, honestly, if you're trying to contribute to the dense of the sex industry, you're doing quite badly.)