question of class

[cacian]

What class would you say you are?
higher lower or middle?

I would say I am middle class because I am educated to middle to a higher level not that it matters haha.
Although I would much prefer to say I am in a class of my own. It is more fun.
I could always push myself up a bit to get to upper with a little help from my studies. Classes are changeable and anyone can reach the top it is just question of will.

What say you?

[Volya]

Classes are not as changeable as you may think, nor is it based on how educated you are.
I'm generally considered to be upper-middle class.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Upper working class/lower middle I suppose.

[OrphanPip]

Studies suggest that most people who identify as middle class are often much poorer than the actual middle class. Depends on what one thinks are the usual luxuries of a middle class lifestyle.

I grew up in an inner-city working class environment, which tends to be wealthier than a rural working class. My mother was an accountant but stopped working before I was born, my father was a plumber. As homeowners they could maybe be considered on the edge between working and lower-middle. I went to crummy public schools in a bad neighbourhood, where I was much wealthier than most of my classmates. I then went to a private Catholic college before going on to university. My own work history would probably be in the lower-middle range, as lab work isn't quite blue collar. Back to school as a graduate student, my income is certainly not middle class, but there are lifestyle factors that would prevent me from saying a grad student qualifies as working class. I prefer to think of myself as a pariah on a fancier form of welfare.

[tonywalt]

Would anyone here who is North American or UK based admit to being from the upper class or even upper middle?-there is an odd stigma to it that seeped in after WWII.

I'd say from observation that alot of onliters from the developing world/middle east are from the upper middle class if not upper class. But still not cool to say it.

I would say in the Caribbean and Latin America class is determined by a mixture of family name(old money)-hugely important, new money(noticably they marry old money-Especially the girls) and a silent strong and fully deniable pigmentocracy.

[Volya]

Would anyone here who is North American or UK based admit to being from the upper class or even upper middle?-there is an odd stigma to it that seeped in after WWII.

I'd say from observation that alot of onliters from the developing world/middle east are from the upper middle class if not upper class. But still not cool to say it.

I would say in the Caribbean and Latin America class is determined by a mixture of family name(old money)-hugely important, new money(noticably they marry old money-Especially the girls) and a silent strong and fully deniable pigmentocracy.

I'm from the UK.

[lilimarlene]

I'm from North America and I have no problem saying that my family is upper middle class.

[Volya]

I have been called a snob, posh, and the like in the past. However the people who call me that generally don't know me, they just see me on the street and associate my school uniform with posh.

[Emil Miller]

I have been called a snob, posh, and the like in the past. However the people who call me that generally don't know me, they just see me on the street and associate my school uniform with posh.

Would you care to say which school you attend ?

[Volya]

It's not really famous xD But it is a grammar school (one of the best in the UK according to the statistics), and there are very strict uniform regulations...
Also, even if I were to not wear the uniform, I daresay they would find some way or another to insult me, such is the tragedy with today's youth...

[cacian]

Classes are not as changeable as you may think, nor is it based on how educated you are.
I'm generally considered to be upper-middle class.

How do you mean you are considered?
Is it how others view you or is it the way you view yourself?
My answers for examplel was in accordance with how I view myself. That is the most important thing I do not really busy myself with what others think. ;)

[Volya]

How do you mean you are considered?
Is it how others view you or is it the way you view yourself?
My answers for examplel was in accordance with how I view myself. That is the most important thing I do not really busy myself with what others think. ;)

Both. My close friends joke about me being rich, posh, etc, but they know I'm nothing like that (that, being a stereotypical snobbish rich kid) really :)

[cacian]

I'm from North America and I have no problem saying that my family is upper middle class.

Why should anyone feel they must hide who they are.
I think one cannot run away for long.
Would you say you find it easier to mix with other people from different classes? Or is it strictly UMC??

[Volya]

Why should anyone feel they must hide who they are.
I think one cannot run away for long.
Would you say you find it easier to mix with other people from different classes? Or is it strictly UMC??

I have mixed with people from most classes and gotten along fine Although I would say that it is difficult for me to mix with the teenagers of the chav/hooligan culture of Britain, since they usually have an irrational dislike of me to begin with. I also refuse to mix with rich, posh, uppity types.

[cacian]

Both. My close friends joke about me being rich, posh, etc, but they know I'm nothing like that (that, being a stereotypical snobbish rich kid) really :)

Do you fing it easy to mix with other classes?
Usually classes in England tend to flock together which makes it difficult for different classes to understand each others.

[cacian]

I have mixed with people from most classes and gotten along fine Although I would say that it is difficult for me to mix with the teenagers of the chav/hooligan culture of Britain, since they usually have an irrational dislike of me to begin with. I also refuse to mix with rich, posh, uppity types.

I can understand the chavvies they can be brash plust they don't even get one between them let alone with other classes.
What is wrong with the uppity type are talkign the Harry Prince type?

[Emil Miller]

It's not really famous xD But it is a grammar school (one of the best in the UK according to the statistics), and there are very strict uniform regulations...
Also, even if I were to not wear the uniform, I daresay they would find some way or another to insult me, such is the tragedy with today's youth...


It sounds like Tiffin School for Boys or possibly Kingston Grammar but, in any case, you should bear your insults lightly because, in the long run, you are more likely to be better educated than those make them and that will give you a greater opportunity to succeed at what you decide to do.

[Volya]

cacian: When I say rich, uppity, I mean those of the upper-classes who believe they are better than others, simply because of their wealth.


It sounds like Tiffin School for Boys or possibly Kingston Grammar but, in any case, you should bear your insults lightly because, in the long run, you are more likely to be better educated than those make them and that will give you a greater opportunity to succeed at what you decide to do.

Neither of those, and yes, that is what I do :) I am very difficult to insult.

[tonywalt]

I'm from North America and I have no problem saying that my family is upper middle class.

I didn't know that. So your not a chav then?;)

[lilimarlene]

I didn't know that. So your not a chav then?;)

not even remotely close

[Shevek]

I'd say I'm middle-class right now, but my family background is more complex because my parents came from both upper- and lower-classes (my mother and father respectively). Being a Jew in Montreal, however, my mother had wealth but didn't exactly fit into the English-Canadian elite. And both parents dropped out of highschool and worked odd jobs their whole life until they started a business together.

Also, this is now a Commonwealth thread.

[JuniperWoolf]

There aren't really "classes" where I come from, at least not in such a way that we consider it a part of our identity. There are sociological catagories of "class" in Canada, but it's such a big place and lifestyle differs so much from one area to the next. Everyone where I'm from was basically on the same level, and we didn't think about "class" at all. We live in isolation and everyone makes good money if they work in the raw resources (oil, coal, or lumber), and almost everyone works in those industries. Almost everyone in town had a lot of money, trucks, boats, RVs, expensive clothes, ect.

I don't know, I guess money doesn't mean as much to me because of all that. Sure everyone had boats, but no one was really happy because their jobs sucked *** (working thousands of feet under mountains in the dark for twelve hours/day shoveling coal into carts, working in a giant building with deafeningly loud machines processing logs, working on an outrageously dangerous and dirty oil rig for six months at a time). Right now as a university student, I'm definately lower class but if I had to, I could move back there to affluence and misery. I don't really like "stuff" so that's lucky - all I want is a room, an education, and financial equilibrium. Financial equilibrium is very important to me, I refuse to get loans because I don't want to be in debt to anyone ever, so I need to work hard enough at an actual job that my income is greater than my expenses. I have a list of six potentially fulfilling things I could do with my life after I graduate, and all of them are pretty low-paying compared to what the guys back home make. My brother's rigger friends are eighteen and making six figures/year.

Also, apparently most people in the Western world think they're middle class, and the majority of them actually aren't. Source: some German sociologist at the U of A.

[JBI]

When you are young, they judge you based on your parents income, when you are in China, they only look at who your parents are.

My parents were well off, but retired very early (my father around age 50). Despite being upper middle class or whatever, I was never given anything more than someone in the lower-middle class bracket - I grew up without any of the frivolous things, and even cheaped out on clothing until recently. My education was completely self-financed, but since my parents are retired, I qualify as a low-income family student, who had the vast majority of educational fees paid by the government. From there I raked in big cash in the terms of scholarships, but I have been working on and off since age 16.

I come to China now and have two reactions. This is a polarized world here, so one half thinks I am a money god, and the other half thinks they themselves are money gods. They spend the whole time counting other people's money, but don't realize someone like me can count better than they. This culture is obsessed with showing off, but I know on an average of 3000RMB a month salary (420$ US or so), that Iphone everyone carries is merely an extravagant waste of money (they sell for about 800$ a pop here). So in a sense they judge me, and I have been met with admiration and will jealousy, and with snobbish response of people who think I cannot afford as many prostitutes as they, and therefore believe I have no face.

Still, one question sticks in my mind, how much is class determined by family background. My parents were successful, but I would never bring that up, let alone brag about it. In China people show off about who their dad or uncle is - it's kind of disgusting, in a sense, they are hammering a class-superiority complex around them - with the next Chairman set to be the son of a military general, whose personal wealth is estimated at over 250million USD, we can see where this culture ends up. I didn't even understand class as an hereditary idea until coming here.

In this country, the rich will not ever converse with the poor. They will never wish to speak to anyone not as rich as them, and could never be friends with anybody whose dad their father could not be friends with. In Canada, that would be the worst kind of disgusting, but here it is generally understood as being cultural. This world culture in a sense needs to be reexamined - it rarely means anything good, but just acts as an excuse for thinking you are better than someone, or justifying some backward mentality.

In terms of my friends, they come from all backgrounds. I have friends who are in the lowest income tier of Chinese society, and I have friends whose parents own yachts. The point is, going out to a pub here, with Chinese people who have money, is a showoff game of who can spend more on liquor and prostitutes, and to me, it is the biggest waste of money in the world. I don't want one hooker, let alone 5, and I am not buying old Chivas Regal to mix it with tea, it is an insult to the beverage.

[Clopin]

Lower class I suppose. My mom used to receive welfare and more than a few times when schools had fundraisers and what not we were the recipients. It was embarrassing.

[Alexander III]

I have always appreciated the little cultural differences. Like in America your social class is solely dependent upon wealth. If you have more than 20 million net worth you are upper class, doesn't matter who your father was. (the 20 million is just an approximation on my behalf, but you guys get what I mean)

While in some european countries, you could be a billionaire but "socially" a man of a noble family who has but a mere million to his name is of a higher class than you. Heck a man of noble tittle who is bankrupts is of higher social class than the billionaire. Unless one is of noble blood one cannot claim to be "upper-class." Of-course the amusing thing is that this rule is only really considered by the nobility, at least in Italy anyways. We still have balls, where only those of noble blood are invited, regardless of money. There was a small scandal a few years back when the son of a count had invited his girl-friend to one of these balls who was not of noble blood, and the count was politely asked to leave. It's the little things in life which make us happy.

[Clopin]

When you are young, they judge you based on your parents income, when you are in China, they only look at who your parents are.

My parents were well off, but retired very early (my father around age 50). Despite being upper middle class or whatever, I was never given anything more than someone in the lower-middle class bracket - I grew up without any of the frivolous things, and even cheaped out on clothing until recently. My education was completely self-financed, but since my parents are retired, I qualify as a low-income family student, who had the vast majority of educational fees paid by the government. From there I raked in big cash in the terms of scholarships, but I have been working on and off since age 16.

I come to China now and have two reactions. This is a polarized world here, so one half thinks I am a money god, and the other half thinks they themselves are money gods. They spend the whole time counting other people's money, but don't realize someone like me can count better than they. This culture is obsessed with showing off, but I know on an average of 3000RMB a month salary (420$ US or so), that Iphone everyone carries is merely an extravagant waste of money (they sell for about 800$ a pop here). So in a sense they judge me, and I have been met with admiration and will jealousy, and with snobbish response of people who think I cannot afford as many prostitutes as they, and therefore believe I have no face.

Still, one question sticks in my mind, how much is class determined by family background. My parents were successful, but I would never bring that up, let alone brag about it. In China people show off about who their dad or uncle is - it's kind of disgusting, in a sense, they are hammering a class-superiority complex around them - with the next Chairman set to be the son of a military general, whose personal wealth is estimated at over 250million USD, we can see where this culture ends up. I didn't even understand class as an hereditary idea until coming here.

Good lord isn't China insane that way? I don't understand how the common people take it, if my mother worked twenty four hours a day in a penny brothel and I had to see some government employees daughter posting her perfume and designer clothing collections online I would snap, probably murderously.


I have always appreciated the little cultural differences. Like in America your social class is solely dependent upon wealth. If you have more than 20 million net worth you are upper class, doesn't matter who your father was. (the 20 million is just an approximation on my behalf, but you guys get what I mean)

While in some european countries, you could be a billionaire but "socially" a man of a noble family who has but a mere million to his name is of a higher class than you. Heck a man of noble tittle who is bankrupts is of higher social class than the billionaire. Unless one is of noble blood one cannot claim to be "upper-class." Of-course the amusing thing is that this rule is only really considered by the nobility, at least in Italy anyways. We still have balls, where only those of noble blood are invited, regardless of money. There was a small scandal a few years back when the son of a count had invited his girl-friend to one of these balls who was not of noble blood, and the count was politely asked to leave. It's the little things in life which make us happy.

At this point then class is a complete fabrication based on nothing.

[Alexander III]

At this point then class is a complete fabrication based on nothing.

As is virtually every construct of human society. Also on a more practical note, my name is super duper elegant in long form. That surely counts for something.


Good lord isn't China insane that way? I don't understand how the common people take it, if my mother worked twenty four hours a day in a penny brothel and I had to see some government employees daughter posting her perfume and designer clothing collections online I would snap, probably murderously.

As opposed to every other nation in the world where money is divided up equally based on solely hard work?

[Clopin]

As is virtually every construct of human society. Also on a more practical note, my name is super duper elegant in long form. That surely counts for something.

No, not really. Money is real and carries weight. If someone comes to me and says that they're high class I only have to look at their house, their car, the cut of their suit, and wife to see that they're the real deal. The idea of a family name entitling you to be a member of some sort of higher class works completely on the assumption that people go along with it, because unlike wealth, it's made up.


As opposed to every other nation in the world where money is divided up equally based on solely hard work?

My post implied nothing of the sort. You're a dunce.

Oh but you were right on the money in the dictator and 9/11 threads. Stick to politics when you post.

[JuniperWoolf]

Money is real and carries weight.

It's not though, it only has prescribed value. You could argue that ancestral lines are more "real" than money, the value of money is all in out collective minds.


If someone comes to me and says that they're high class I only have to look at their house, their car, the cut of their suit, and wife to see that they're the real deal.

You can't really tell someone's social status by looking at them, sometimes ugly people and women have money. Case in point:

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_277047-gina-rinehart-an-australian-mining-tycoon-has-leap-frogged-walmart-hei.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=277047-gina-rinehart-an-australian-mining-tycoon-has-leap-frogged-walmart-hei.jpg)

[Basil]

Case in point:

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_277047-gina-rinehart-an-australian-mining-tycoon-has-leap-frogged-walmart-hei.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=277047-gina-rinehart-an-australian-mining-tycoon-has-leap-frogged-walmart-hei.jpg)

What's her wife look like?

[Desolation]

My family falls below the poverty line.

[Volya]

Is there that strong a class system in third world countries, in the Middle-East, Africa, etc?

Is it true that India has probably the most well-defined class/caste system?

In the UK, I rarely meet anyone who makes their judgement based solely on class, or how much money their parents make. There is one guy at our school who's parents are pretty darn rich, and he flaunts it a lot. I never understand why in arguments, some people resort to 'Oh my daddy has more money than yours'...

[cacian]

Is there that strong a class system in third world countries, in the Middle-East, Africa, etc?

Is it true that India has probably the most well-defined class/caste system?

In the UK, I rarely meet anyone who makes their judgement based solely on class, or how much money their parents make. There is one guy at our school who's parents are pretty darn rich, and he flaunts it a lot. I never understand why in arguments, some people resort to 'Oh my daddy has more money than yours'...

I think in most underdeveloped world there is what you call the new arriviste or the nouveau rich. So instead of a class system you get the very rich then the very poor and somwhere in the middle the in betweeners if you like.
The very rich are rich because of money laundring or black market it is all kind doggy money if you like.
There is not concept of nobility or aristocracy meaning poeple with noble origins if you like.

[JuniperWoolf]

What's her wife look like?

Not bad, before he died:
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_dh_rinehart_20120201092238572145-420x0-1.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=dh_rinehart_20120201092238572145-420x0-1.jpg)

[prendrelemick]

Working Class, with a chip on the shoulder of course.

I seem to remember a brief time in the pre-Thatcher years when fraternisation between the classes was fairly common. The country was experimenting with liberal socialism and some of it must've rubbed off on to the sons and daughters of the Quality. However the drawbridge was soon pulled up.

[TurquoiseSunset]

I'm middle class, loosely based on money, education and occupation. It doesn't mean much of anything, but some people here still take status and class very seriously...the rest of us try to ignore them.

[Clopin]

It's not though, it only has prescribed value. You could argue that ancestral lines are more "real" than money, the value of money is all in out collective minds.



You can't really tell someone's social status by looking at them, sometimes ugly people and women have money. Case in point:

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_277047-gina-rinehart-an-australian-mining-tycoon-has-leap-frogged-walmart-hei.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=277047-gina-rinehart-an-australian-mining-tycoon-has-leap-frogged-walmart-hei.jpg)

No, the purpose of money is to represent precious metals which makes bartering easier than "I will trade you my bushel of oranges for your lamp". While nowadays most currency is fiat, and that isn't necessarily "real"; money essentially means lots o resources, or the capability to purchase them. Arguing that a noble title is more weighty than currency is pretty absurd.

And I meant that an ugly man with a lot of money/status will tend to have an attractive wife.

[Emil Miller]

And I meant that an ugly man with a lot of money/status will tend to have an attractive wife.

I know what you mean squire.


http://imageshack.us/a/img35/4199/imagesca3d9ok8.jpg

[Alexander III]

Arguing that a noble title is more weighty than currency is pretty absurd.


Of course it is, but not to the nobility. Equality is always unfair if you are loosing privileges rather than gaining them. If the 1/3 of the world which is living on less than a dollar a day suddenly rose up in rebellion and took everything you owned and split it equally, you would have a mere few dollars, but so would everyone else. That would be equality, to they who gained guaranteed food and fresh water everyday it would be just, to you who lost your house, your car, your television and internet and almost everything else except food and fresh water it would seem unfair.

[Emil Miller]

Working Class, with a chip on the shoulder of course.

I seem to remember a brief time in the pre-Thatcher years when fraternisation between the classes was fairly common. The country was experimenting with liberal socialism and some of it must've rubbed off on to the sons and daughters of the Quality. However the drawbridge was soon pulled up.

I don't remember that, unless you mean that the youth of different classes were going to the same pop concerts. I do remember Denis Thatcher reported as saying that something ought to be done about the reds in the BBC, but if the drawbridge was pulled up it was too late, the BBC was already in the castle.

[Paulclem]

My mum and dad were working class until my dad stopped working in the early 1980s and never went back. I used to think I was working class, but reflecting on this I suppose it makes me from the underclass.

I mixed with kids who were from the middle class in school, and i suppose it had the effect of giving me a middle class outlook in a working class/ underclass environment. It did mean that I couldn't participate in a lot of stuff that my mates did, but thankfully there was a lot of sport available.

I was always going to go to university, but I did do a lot of labouring jobs before and during my time as both a student and school teacher.

I'm now middle class due to my education. I'm a graduate with a postgraduate teaching certificate and two subject specific courses in Maths and Engish that qualify me to teach up to GCSE, though with my degree, I could teach A'level. I feel rooted in my working class background though, and I feel this gives me an advantage as a teacher with both adults and children. My colleagues are all middle class - one is an Oxford graduate - and I get on with them all very well, but I do feel able and confident enough to talk to anyone from any class. Part of that is experience, part is education, and part of it is the working class Yorkshire bolshy-ness that Mick was talking about.

I find class fascinating, particularly as it is enshrined in the language and accents in the UK. Anyone speaking to me would know I'm from Yorkshire - though I've been here for 21 years - and that would be whether we're talking about Tolstoy or beer, whippets and ferrets. It does also annoy me, as there are so many assumptions automatically made by people about others.

[Clopin]

Of course it is, but not to the nobility. Equality is always unfair if you are loosing privileges rather than gaining them. If the 1/3 of the world which is living on less than a dollar a day suddenly rose up in rebellion and took everything you owned and split it equally, you would have a mere few dollars, but so would everyone else. That would be equality, to they who gained guaranteed food and fresh water everyday it would be just, to you who lost your house, your car, your television and internet and almost everything else except food and fresh water it would seem unfair.

I agree with you, but that has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Clearly anybody working a minimum wage job in a western country is comparatively blessed.

[cacian]

Working Class, with a chip on the shoulder of course.

I seem to remember a brief time in the pre-Thatcher years when fraternisation between the classes was fairly common. The country was experimenting with liberal socialism and some of it must've rubbed off on to the sons and daughters of the Quality. However the drawbridge was soon pulled up.

Hi prendrelemick I do not understand what you mean by
'fraternisation between the classes '?

[cacian]

No, the purpose of money is to represent precious metals which makes bartering easier than "I will trade you my bushel of oranges for your lamp". While nowadays most currency is fiat, and that isn't necessarily "real"; money essentially means lots o resources, or the capability to purchase them. Arguing that a noble title is more weighty than currency is pretty absurd.

It is and quite rightly should be, one cannot help royalty and nobility, but the with the current situtation where now one can buy titles nobility becomes as common as a commoner. Worse then communism.

And I meant that an ugly man with a lot of money/status will tend to have an attractive wife.
Money talks.;)
At the end of the day ugly or not some women go looking for it and of course old/ugly men oblige. It takes two to tango.

[prendrelemick]

Hi prendrelemick I do not understand what you mean by
'fraternisation between the classes '?

I remember finishing shoveling pig sh*t, then going to parties in houses with tree lined drives and a stable block. That was in a very rural situation though, the kind of place where Orwell said - you couldn't throw a brick without hitting the neice of a bishop.

[Clopin]

I agree with you, but that has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Clearly anybody working a minimum wage job in a western country is comparatively blessed.

Also "loosing" is not a word that fits in that sentence, and it isn't a typo either.

[Emil Miller]

I remember finishing shoveling pig sh*t, then going to parties in houses with tree lined drives and a stable block. That was in a very rural situation though, the kind of place where Orwell said - you couldn't throw a brick without hitting the neice of a bishop.

Back in those days I used to drink in a pub in Mayfair (a district reputed to have the highest rents in the world) and was the local of the wealthy occupants of the area. Some of them were quite friendly and one woman whom I occasionally spoke to told me that until they divorced she used to spend the summer cruising on her husband's yacht. She was a very well-dressed individual and I had no reason to disbelieve her but when someone asked if I would like to attend a party in celebration of the original May Fair, after which the district is named, I declined. It wasn't a question of class but simply a disinclination to become involved with people with whom I had nothing in common.

[prendrelemick]

I was 17, living away from home and never refused a party.

Thinking back, these people were not fantasticaly wealthy, (although they seemed it to me at the time) they were the "Hunting Set"mainly. That meant they had large houses and large Horses, but lived frugally. I remember one girl invited me for a weekend at her parents stately dump, to stop her family bullying her - she thought they would have to keep up appearances infront of the working class.

[cacian]

Back in those days I used to drink in a pub in Mayfair (a district reputed to have the highest rents in the world) and was the local of the wealthy occupants of the area. Some of them were quite friendly and one woman whom I occasionally spoke to told me that until they divorced she used to spend the summer cruising on her husband's yacht. She was a very well-dressed individual and I had no reason to disbelieve her but when someone asked if I would like to attend a party in celebration of the original May Fair, after which the district is named, I declined. It wasn't a question of class but simply a disinclination to become involved with people with whom I had nothing in common.

Interesting that you declined on the ground of something in common.
I think overseeing or prejudging things on the ground of commoness might a bit harsh.
If anything it would have given an insight into a different class which would have been interesting in itsel.
People are people after all money or not there are nice and not so nice people regardless.


I was 17, living away from home and never refused a party.

Thinking back, these people were not fantasticaly wealthy, (although they seemed it to me at the time) they were the "Hunting Set"mainly. That meant they had large houses and large Horses, but lived frugally. I remember one girl invited me for a weekend at her parents stately dump, to stop her family bullying her - she thought they would have to keep up appearances infront of the working class.

And did they?