Sperm Banks

[cacian]

egg donation or surrogacy?

Would you consider any of this?
Transgeder pregnancy is another topic that could included here.
In all intent and purposes I consider adoptions a bestest options since there are thousands of children without homes for example.
Please and see this from a child point of view.

[billl]

Would you?

[cacian]

Hi Billl I am a lady and so a sperm donation is impossible :p
but egg donations or surrogacy is a definite no no.
I could and would not do it.
The reason is that I feel misplacing children in this way is not a good idea.
In the same that I feel women turned men and getting pregnant is not a good idea either because it is extremely distressing and confusing for a child.

[billl]

Whoa, the OP really changed a lot (via edit)! Very specific, and I'm not sure the title is a perfect match anymore.

[cacian]

Whoa, the OP really changed a lot (via edit)! Very specific, and I'm not sure the title is a perfect match anymore.

Haha I guess it is all part of the same idea and that is to donate or procreate under a different identity.
Does that make sense?:p

[billl]

I guess we'll just see where it goes!

[Delta40]

I understand adoption is confusing for a child. Why not ban that?

[cacian]

I understand adoption is confusing for a child. Why not ban that?

Hi Delta. How is adoption confusing?
Adoption is a different procedure. Sperm and egg donation is a totally different ball game.
In this case I would rather adopt then donate.

[Lokasenna]

Haha I guess it is all part of the same idea and that is to donate or procreate under a different identity.
Does that make sense?:p

Not really, no. They're completely different issues.

Also, whilst transgender pregnancies are possible, they are extremely rare.

As for your question, 'Would you?'. Would I what? I'm not transgender, so there's no way I could get pregnant. Would I donate sperm? Possibly, but only if donor anonymity could be guarenteed - somthing that is a rather tricky point in British law. Do I have views on surrogate parents? Yes - they're absolutely fine.

[Delta40]

Hi Delta. How is adoption confusing?
Adoption is a different procedure. Sperm and egg donation is a totally different ball game.
In this case I would rather adopt then donate.

My point is that adoption, sperm donation or transgender birthing all may cause emotional confusion in a child for different reasons.

Have you considered that we're less interested in how these technologies affect children so much as we are in how they might help people bear children, trusting that such candidates would rear them in a loving, supportive environment?

[cacian]

QUOTE=Lokasenna;1168790]Not really, no. They're completely different issues.

Also, whilst transgender pregnancies are possible, they are extremely rare.

Transgender pregnancies are on the increase.


As for your question, 'Would you?'. Would I what? I'm not transgender, so there's no way I could get pregnant. Would I donate sperm? Possibly, but only if donor anonymity could be guarenteed - somthing that is a rather tricky point in British law.

Anonimity for you but what about the child? Does the child has not right in knowing who his real father is?
What if through many donations one brother and one sister eventually meet but because they do not know who they are might well get together as a couple. This happened before and will happen again.
Would you feel responsible for donating sperms without prior knowledge to those who will suffer as a result.

Do I have views on surrogate parents? Yes - they're absolutely fine.
They are fine sure. I am trying to view through the eyes of the child.

It is fine to facilitate pregnancies but are children's feelings and emotions are taken into account?
I do realise this is an adult world run by adults and all decisions are striclty adult matter and therefore anything else a childor anything else does not count.
I sometimes feel that perhaps this laxed attitude is too overseen not well thoughout and can well have a resonating effect on others around us.
It is just an opinion that I feel must be addressed.


[QUOTE=Delta40;1168797]My point is that adoption, sperm donation or transgender birthing all may cause emotional confusion in a child for different reasons.
Adotpion is necessary because a child has just lost his/her parents. By right of passage it is our duty to ensure that the child gets given a new home with loving parents.
In this very case the child is already emtionally adjusted because his/her awarness of his parental backround is established. This will eventually give the child the emotional and physical support to adapt with the new environment
It is in the nature of humans to fight back and readjust again.
This is because a child born to 'real' parents establishes a bond, a legacy in itself. The emotional strength is through knowing who our real parents are which is crucial to our wellbeing for later on in life.
A child born to transgender for example canbe confusing because nature says born to women only but a child born to a woman/man is different from the popular norms and can well be traumatic.
I am guessing children born to tramsgenders might encouter emotional confusions difficulties within a school environment for example is one. The majority of the children are from 'normal' birth ie woman and and the minority is not may cause confusion. Bullying is just around the corner waiting to errupt.
I am solely trying to put myself in a child shoes. Whilst we adults are able to take what we think are the right decisions it might well be the wrong one the child themselves. The effect on the way we decide to bring them to this world is not without consequneces if we decide to take a different route from that of how nauture intended.

Have you considered that we're less interested in how these technologies affect children so much as we are in how they might help people bear children, trusting that such candidates would rear them in a loving, supportive environment?
I am aware that the urgency of getting pregnant and bearing children is more important that actually ensuring that children born differently from the norms would be emotionally well adjusted happy and fitted the environment we live in.
We all adhere to the norms and thrive in identifying ourselves with others but inflciting radical changes onto a child life by taking away the norms form them is avery challenging task.
I feel that sometimes decisions are taken because the needs to achieve something to content an adult desires and wishes, is more important then the children themsleves.

[Delta40]

Oh please. Real parents? That will explain why the hundreds upon hundreds of homes for unmarried mothers existed in britain won't it and why my mother was robbed of a child. Thanks. Now at least I know why I'm missing a brother....

[Lokasenna]

This is because a child born to real parents establishes a bond, a legacy in itself. The emotional strength is through knowing who our real parents are is crucial to our wellbeing for later on in life.
A child born to transgender for example is confusing because nature says born to women only but a child is born to a man can well be traumatic.

And with that comment, I'm exiting this conversation. For the record, I have a brother who is adopted, I have lesbian friends who have kids, I have male gay friends who want kids and I am sure will make excellent parents, I know 'real' parents who are making a terrible job of child-rearing, and my sister-in-law is currently considering the possibilty of a surrogate mother having her next child because she no longer can.

The world is not black-and-white, cacian. The sweeping statements you are inclined to make, in this thread and others, belong to the past. The world is moving on, and it's leaving you behind. And if you're not careful, you are going to upset and offend people. Please try to understand that.

[cacian]

Oh please. Real parents? That will explain why the hundreds upon hundreds of homes for unmarried mothers existed in britain won't it and why my mother was robbed of a child. Thanks. Now at least I know why I'm missing a brother....

Hi Delta I am sorry I did not mean to upset you.
I am not sure I understandwhat you mean about unmarried women?
I have had a baby boy cousin who was given up for adoption in my family myself because the society at the time did not allow for unmarried women to have children. It is harsh and unforgiving and very tragic. I feel this is totally unjustified and that societies need to change. Morality and marriages often stand as the barrier in certain societies as many children suffer as a result
I am not justifying this at all but I am trying to discuss children born outside their genetic bound, sorry I can't find the word, ie sperm/egg donated children. I know someone who does not know his father but he knows he is because of a sperm bank. He has many underlaying issues and one of them is not knowing who he really is.
He also worries about cross sibblings and not knowing they are.
My point was trying to put myself into the children place.
A situation where a child birth mother is the sister of his real mother (surrogacy in this case|) is I would imagine quite challenging for a little mind.
Or a child that does not know his real biological father is also challenging.
I am not trying to put the blame on anyone or say that is wrong or right but what I am trying to discuss it from the point of that child without upsetting anyone and If I have then I truly apologise in advance.
Airing things like this is important in order to inform and equip future parents and generations to come to make the right choices without feeling that one day might come where they would think differently about the decisions they took.
There is no harm in consdering both sides parents and children.

[DocHeart]

. Sperm [donation] is a totally different ball game.

Brilliant.

[cacian]

Brilliant.

Oh !!!:smilewinkgrin:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Please understand this is not an attack on anyone but only trying to see it from a child point of view.
So many . . . possibilities for insults . . . must resist . . .


Adotpion is necessary because a child has just lost his/her parents. By right of passage it is our duty to ensure that the child gets given a new home with loving parents.
In this very case the child is already emtionally adjusted because his/her awarness of his parental backround is established. This will eventually give the child the emotional and physical support to adapt with the new environment
It is in the nature of humans to fight back and readjust again.
This is because a child born to real parents establishes a bond, a legacy in itself. The emotional strength is through knowing who our real parents are is crucial to our wellbeing for later on in life.
A child born to transgender for example is confusing because nature says born to women only but a child is born to a man can well be traumatic.
I am guessing this same child would encouter emotional difficulties within a school environment for example. All other children born and have normal mothers but is the only one born to a woman/ man. Bullying is just around the corner waiting to errupt.
I am solely trying to put myself in a child shoes. Whilts we adults are able to take what we think as the right decisions it might well be the wrong one for the child we decide to bring into this world.

I already know that the urgency of getting pregnant and bearing children is more important that actually ensuring children are emotionally well adjusted happy and fitted the environment we live in.
We all adhere to the norms and thrive in identifying ourselves with others but inflciting radical changes onto a child life by taking away the norms form them is avery challenging task.
I feel that sometimes decisions are taken because the needs to achieve something to content an adult desires and wishes, is more important then the children themsleves.

And my "dumb things said on LitNet" list grows!

[Charles Darnay]

So many . . . possibilities for insults . . . must resist . . .


And my "dumb things said on LitNet" list grows!

To be fair, this one was doomed from the outset.

[cacian]

A conversation about children's wellfare is never doomed especially when it comes to talking about children whose biological fathers are sperm donors they have never met.
I guess it is the laissez faire that is truly doomed.

[Volya]

There is absolutely nothing wrong at all with sperm or egg donation, or any other methods of conception that involve surrogate mothers, etc.

[Charles Darnay]

A conversation about children's wellfare is never doomed especially when it comes to talking about children whose biological fathers are sperm donors they have never met.
I guess it is the lessez faire that is truly doomed.

A conversation of children's welfare in which you have distinguished between "real"and "unreal" parents is doomed. A conversation about children's welfare in which the only way for children to be "well" is to be born one particular way is doomed.

There are plenty of children who have never met their biological father, and while some go in search of him at some point, many have adoptive fathers who are fulfill that same role. What difference should it make if you are raised by parents who love you, and you raise you well, what should it matter if you came from their penis or vagina or by some other means?

If I found out today that my parents aren't my biological parents, I wouldn't give a ****. They have been so good to me, and I love them - and if there was some random couple who gave me up 24 years ago, well they are some random people and I hold as much regard for them as I do for anyone who I have never met.

Get it out of your head that there is some predetermination in us - that we are mentally stamped as soon as we are conceived....this is bull****.

[cacian]

[
QUOTE=Charles Darnay;1168859]A conversation of children's welfare in which you have distinguished between "real"and "unreal" parents is doomed. A conversation about children's welfare in which the only way for children to be "well" is to be born one particular way is doomed.

Please do read everything I wrote before reaching conclusions such as this.
I have outlined in few posts that the actual benefit of knowing who your parents are is crucial for our general well being. This is a natural thing to do have and know our parents. I guess 'real' is not the right word to use. I meant biological parents.
Of course not all of us are bestowed upon us the priviledge of knowing who our parents are but at least we have some king of idea because we have been told it in some way, the name or whatever.
Information no matter how little is crucial.
This is some comfort to us in many ways then none.
I also think that where there is a choice there is a will.
Sperm and egg donated children is not something nature dictates otherwise we will all be doing it.
I am merely thinking that messing with nature biolgogical reproduction is not without consequences.
Someone who grows not ever knowing who his/her biological parents quite distressing. The fact that being aware that one day he or she might cross with other sibblings and not even knowing is very strange position to be in.
Many sibblings cross each other this way and end up as a couple only to be told years later they are sibblings.
Couteracting an act such as sperm donation and knowing where one is in terms of his biological children is crucial to avoid situations such as the one I| mentioned.




There are plenty of children who have never met their biological father, and while some go in search of him at some point, many have adoptive fathers who are fulfill that same role. What difference should it make if you are raised by parents who love you, and you raise you well, what should it matter if you came from their penis or vagina or by some other means?

Well you said it they do go searching for their biological father. Why do you think that is?

If I found out today that my parents aren't my biological parents, I wouldn't give a ****. They have been so good to me, and I love them - and if there was some random couple who gave me up 24 years ago, well they are some random people and I hold as much regard for them as I do for anyone who I have never met.

Get it out of your head that there is some predetermination in us - that we are mentally stamped as soon as we are conceived....this is bull****.
Yes well I have never met my father but I know who he is but because I have been told when I was younger. Now that made a difference albeit small.
Minor things such as this count hence this whole discussion about sperm/egg donations.

[Volya]

How is a biological parent any better than a non-biological one, if they both fulfill the job of caring for you?

[cacian]

How is a biological parent any better than a non-biological one, if they both fulfill the job of caring for you?

No one is better then other. Both people can make perfectly happy children the only difference is that the first one has decided to give up on knowing who his children are by giving up his 'sperm' and the other has chosen to take over the responsibility of getting to bring these children up by giving them a second father.
In terms of surrogacy it is a rather new concept that is for me rather too complicated.
On a one hand why surrogate when one can adopt and the other I cannot imagine how a child would react knowing that his biological mum is a friend or a sister or a stranger to the mum who wanted him/her at the first place but could not.
I mean this is territory and one does not how the children are will be affected long terms.
But then again that is one choice I would not take because I would adopt instead.

[Charles Darnay]

Cons of adoption:

It can be very expensive

It is mired in bureaucratic red tape

You will not always know the preexisting inherited genetic conditions, unlike a surrogate, where you usually know more about the biological parent.

I also think you should reconsider your emphasis on nature. If humans followed the rules of nature when it came to birth, infant mortality (and mother mortality) would be as high today as it was half a century ago. Do you support hospital births? Painkillers to help the mother? Testing done before birth to ensure that the baby is healthy? How is surrogate (an advanced technology designed to helped those who are unable to give birth) any different?

[cacian]

Cons of adoption:

It can be very expensive

It is mired in bureaucratic red tape

You will not always know the preexisting inherited genetic conditions, unlike a surrogate, where you usually know more about the biological parent.

I also think you should reconsider your emphasis on nature. If humans followed the rules of nature when it came to birth, infant mortality (and mother mortality) would be as high today as it was half a century ago. Do you support hospital births? Painkillers to help the mother? Testing done before birth to ensure that the baby is healthy? How is surrogate (an advanced technology designed to helped those who are unable to give birth) any different?

Surrogacy is complicated in the sense the child bearer ends up giving the child straight after birth.
I do know that parting from a child of your own is quite traumatic but having to do it as a favour for someone else is rather strange. I could not bear a child then give it up straigt away. There are feelings involved for both the child and the mother. Whether we like on it surrogacy or not the child is taken away from the mother who bore it. I find extremely distressing something I would not want to think about.

[OrphanPip]

As a serious aside, some states in Australia have banned surrogate pregnancy. Most of the bans just prohibit paid surrogacy, on the justification that it is exploitative. Although, some have even banned altruistic surrogacy for gay couples and single parents. Surrogacy is banned under any circumstance in Tasmania for some reason.

[cacian]

As a serious aside, some states in Australia have banned surrogate pregnancy. Most of the bans just prohibit paid surrogacy, on the justification that it is exploitative. Although, some have even banned altruistic surrogacy for gay couples and single parents. Surrogacy is banned under any circumstance in Tasmania for some reason.

Banned is a bit extreme because surrogacy gets on somebody else territory like outside the country. Interesting they banned on the ground of 'benefit' and not because of the parent-child wellfare.

Altruistic is also an interesting word.

Altruisim is contrasted with egoism and comes to mean a kind of a doctrine a religious duty towards the goods of others.
This is an interesting paragraph


Much debate exists as to whether true altruism is possible. Some argue that no act of sharing, helping or sacrificing can be described as truly altruistic, as the actor may receive an intrinsic reward in the form of personal gratification. The validity of this argument is subjective, depending on whether intrinsic rewards qualify as 'benefits'
And this is a nice painting to accompany it called:

Belisaire demandant l'aumone Jacques-Louis David
or
Giving alms to the poor is often considered an altruistic action in many cultures and religions

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Belisaire_demandant_l%27aumone_Jacques-Louis_David.jpg/684px-Belisaire_demandant_l%27aumone_Jacques-Louis_David.jpg

[Volya]

Banned is a bit extreme because it is quite easily outside the countrie. Interesting they banned on the ground of benefit and not because of the parent child benefit.

Altruistic is also an interesting word.

Altruisim is contrasted with egoism and comes to mean a kind of a doctrine a religious duty towards the goods of others.
This is an interesting paragraph


And this is a nice painting to accompany it called:

Belisaire demandant l'aumone Jacques-Louis David
or
Giving alms to the poor is often considered an altruistic action in many cultures and religions

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Belisaire_demandant_l%27aumone_Jacques-Louis_David.jpg/684px-Belisaire_demandant_l%27aumone_Jacques-Louis_David.jpg

I always thought altruism was doing something purely to help others, without being motivated by self-gain.

[cacian]

Volya yes you are actually right it is doing things for others without the benefit of anything but it is not easy to prove it is solely on the ground of helping others and nothing else. I call it volunteering if you like but then it is not entirely without benefit because what you do goes on your cv.
In some countries they give food to the poor or help someone in need by giving them money without expecting anything in return. It can be done I have seen it.

[Volya]

I think I'm an altruistic guy.

[cacian]

I think I'm an altruistic guy.

Do you?
And how old are you? Fifteen?

[Volya]

erm... yes?

[cacian]

erm... yes?

You are very mature for your age or at least you come across as that on this forum which is commendable.
What makes you think you are an altruistic guy? :)

[Volya]

Idk, I just do nice things for no reason... (maybe there are subconscious reasons, but I'm jjust not aware of them)

[cacian]

Fair enough I think it is part of our personality to want to do things to be of assistance to others because it is a nice thing to do and it is ultimately rewarding a kind of a nice feeling I guess.
It is better then being horrible or indifferent towards others because the less we pay attention to others the less we pay attention to ourselves.
Egoism is not the word but more neglectful towards ourselves when we switch off from people around us.

[paradoxical]

This thread just gets weirder and weirder.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

A conversation of children's welfare in which you have distinguished between "real"and "unreal" parents is doomed. A conversation about children's welfare in which the only way for children to be "well" is to be born one particular way is doomed.

There are plenty of children who have never met their biological father, and while some go in search of him at some point, many have adoptive fathers who are fulfill that same role. What difference should it make if you are raised by parents who love you, and you raise you well, what should it matter if you came from their penis or vagina or by some other means?

If I found out today that my parents aren't my biological parents, I wouldn't give a ****. They have been so good to me, and I love them - and if there was some random couple who gave me up 24 years ago, well they are some random people and I hold as much regard for them as I do for anyone who I have never met.

Get it out of your head that there is some predetermination in us - that we are mentally stamped as soon as we are conceived....this is bull****.

This.

[JuniperWoolf]

I don't think donating eggs and donating sperm should be seen in the same light, there's more to egg donation. In the weeks leading up to it the donor has to take quite a few hormone shots which screw with their body's natural processes, to cause the woman to produce more than one egg for extraction (we usually only produce one egg/month). During the procedure the donor has to be sedated, and then a doctor puts a needle-thing right up into the vagina which sucks the eggs right out of the ovary. There are physical risks that egg donors have to consider as well, I've heard of egg donors who are damaged during the procedure to the point of being unable to have children, and I think some donors have even died.

It's a bit different from jerking off into a cup, anyway.

[cacian]

I don't think donating eggs and donating sperm should be seen in the same light, there's more to egg donation. In the weeks leading up to it the donor has to take quite a few hormone shots which screw with their body's natural processes, to cause the woman to produce more than one egg for extraction (we usually only produce one egg/month). During the procedure the donor has to be sedated, and then a doctor puts a needle-thing right up into the vagina which sucks the eggs right out of the ovary. There are physical risks that egg donors have to consider as well, I've heard of egg donors who are damaged during the procedure to the point of being unable to have children, and I think some donors have even died.

It's a bit different from jerking off into a cup, anyway.

Wow I never knew that. Thank you for posting this Juniper.