Destiny V Faith

[cacian]

There is a fine line between these two concepts.
Is one right to assume that one is destined to have faith?

[usman.khawar]

There is a fine line between these two concepts.
Is one right to assume that one is destined to have faith?

Everything is destined except faith.

[cacian]

Everything is destined except faith.

Faith is complicated especially if it is changeable.
One can have faith one minute and the next becomes untrustworthy of it.
How does one keep the faith without loosing sight of it?

[Paulclem]

Everything is destined except faith.

That depends upon who you ask.

[cacian]

That depends upon who you ask.

Ok.
Does the depedence to do with age preferences taste or personality?
Is it a cultural thing?

[Dreamsqueen]

faith isnt culture, faith isnot changeable, it is something so strong and cant be easily removed or changed, or it will not be called faith.

[cacian]

faith isnt culture, faith isnot changeable, it is something so strong and cant be easily removed or changed, or it will not be called faith.

Hi Dreamsqueen and thank you for posting.
I go with the expression to 'lose faith'.
I guess it depends on the type of faith one is talking about.
I am thinking someone who become an unbeliever for example.
One who loses faith in god, however much, the concept of God does not go away and so faith is in that sense never impacts on going anywhere but be.
Losing faith with people is a different ball game. Once you lose trust with someone it is very hard to get that faith back. trust/faith is never the same again
That is a different kind of faith the one to do with people that is.

[balthasar1990]

Destiny is the soft destination. What i mean by that is that, while it does exist, it can be changed. If you do good deed, work hard, the destiny will be molded in accordance with your actions. Faith is when you try to do the best that you can and hope that Allah makes it sufficient for your success.

To simple do nothing, and to term that as 'Whatever happens happens, i have faith'....is absolutely wrong and misleading. Such is not called faith. The only time i believe faith is termed in that context is when you have done all you could possibly do to better yourself, and what isn't in your control, you leave upto Allah, and have faith. Never lose hope.

[cafolini]

Destiny is the soft destination. What i mean by that is that, while it does exist, it can be changed. If you do good deed, work hard, the destiny will be molded in accordance with your actions. Faith is when you try to do the best that you can and hope that Allah makes it sufficient for your success.

To simple do nothing, and to term that as 'Whatever happens happens, i have faith'....is absolutely wrong and misleading. Such is not called faith. The only time i believe faith is termed in that context is when you have done all you could possibly do to better yourself, and what isn't in your control, you leave upto Allah, and have faith. Never lose hope.

Luther disagreed with you rotundly. No work or amount of work can actually cause God to reward you with a good destiny. You can only get that by grace. And that's how protestantism won regarding salvation.
Prayer and faith in the grace of God is your only choice.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

There is a fine line between these two concepts.
Is one right to assume that one is destined to have faith?

No. Destiny and faith are two completely different things. This question makes no sense.

[Dreamsqueen]

Hi Dreamsqueen and thank you for posting.
I go with the expression to 'lose faith'.
I guess it depends on the type of faith is talking about.
I am thinking someone for example who become an unbeliever for example.
One who loses faith in god however much the concept of God does not go away and so faith is in that sense never impacts on going anywhere but be.
Losing faith with people is a different ball game. Once you lose trust with someone it is very hard to get that fait back. trust/faith is never the same again
That is a different kind of faith the one to do with people that is.

I agree with you that faith is something and trust is something else, and yes, once you lose your trust in someone, it is appreximately impossible to retain it again
but in my personal belief, faith in God, whatever happens, it will remain so strong, even if i experience things so terrible
yet, I tell you, I am of the type that never gets their trust again in people who failed them once

[Bonsai Ent]

There's often an assumption that faith is a single cohesive idea (an idea that probably has it's origins in the New Atheist discourse that assumes its criticism of western Christianity is universally applicable), but faith is understand differently in many religions, and some don't even have the concept.

In Buddhism, faith is a conviction backed up by experience, knowledge and reason.

[usman.khawar]

Faith is complicated especially if it is changeable.
One can have faith one minute and the next becomes untrustworthy of it.
How does one keep the faith without loosing sight of it?

By Gaining balance or try to keep closer towards balance through knowledge and cnosideration, one can add remembrance as well.

Yes faith is variable. it can be shifted from balance or totally out of balance means no faith. so its better to start from the base that is knowledge of faith. if the base is strong than faith will never be demolished.

Paul: The basic faith is concerning only with God no matter withwhom u ask. faith on angels, paradise, hell, prophets, hereafter etc come after this basic faith. may b you are talking about a lot of gods in hinduism, or three gods (one soul), the concept of trinity, in christianity etc i cant say anything about it.

[cacian]

There's often an assumption that faith is a single cohesive idea (an idea that probably has it's origins in the New Atheist discourse that assumes its criticism of western Christianity is universally applicable), but faith is understand differently in many religions, and some don't even have the concept.

In Buddhism, faith is a conviction backed up by experience, knowledge and reason.

Faith is nothing but a feeling to me.
It is extremely personal and one faith is never the same as another.
An idea is rather light to compare it with.

[cacian]

QUOTE=usman.khawar;1172821]By Gaining balance or try to keep closer towards balance through knowledge and cnosideration, one can add remembrance as well.
Isn't there such a thing as : 'I just know because I know'. Instinct. ?
knowledge is great but knowledge without the readiness for it is not so/


Yes faith is variable. it can be shifted from balance or totally out of balance means no faith. so its better to start from the base that is knowledge of faith. if the base is strong than faith will never be demolished.
I agree. I take faith as being a positive balance from the very start.
The word faith is a positive influence and outlook.
As oppose to outcry for example which has negative connotations to it.


Paul: The basic faith is concerning only with God no matter withwhom u ask. faith on angels, paradise, hell, prophets, hereafter etc come after this basic faith. may b you are talking about a lot of gods in hinduism, or three gods (one soul), the concept of trinity, in christianity etc i cant say anything about it.

Sorry I know this not form but may I add to this:
Faith is not quartely or monthly it is not a weight or a measurement that leads from A to Z. It is not a one way ticket either. It is a feeling and so it branches out here and there and everywhere.
Religions for demand that one has faith in God a higher being.
I ask myself this:
Does God have faith in mankind? after all one has to reciprocate in order for faith to unify.
It is a give and take and not one way deal.
Just like people. Trust is a give a take and so faith.

[Paulclem]

I was referring to destiny when I said it depends who you ask, for example Buddhism denies predestination, whereas a Muslim - please correct me if I'm wrong - may believe in destiny.

If you believe in fate or destiny, then this implies an absence of free will.

I think we need definitions:

Faith:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

Destiny:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/destiny

1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.
2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control: "Marriage and hanging go by destiny" (Robert Burton).
3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events: Destiny brought them together.

As Mutatis said, there isn't a fine line between the two concepts at all. They are very different.

Cacian - did you mean fate?

It doesn't mean that we can't discuss the ideas though.

[cacian]

I was referring to destiny when I said it depends who you ask, for example Buddhism denies predestination, whereas a Muslim - please correct me if I'm wrong - may believe in destiny.

If you believe in fate or destiny, then this implies an absence of free will.

I think we need definitions:

Faith:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

Destiny:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/destiny

1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.
2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control: "Marriage and hanging go by destiny" (Robert Burton).
3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events: Destiny brought them together.

As Mutatis said, there isn't a fine line between the two concepts at all. They are very different.

Cacian - did you mean fate?

It doesn't mean that we can't discuss the ideas though.

Hi Paulclem it might well be that I have meant fate.
I am now thinking to have faith is to believe in something.
To have a destiny is to have something laid out for you.
To believe one has a destiny is in a way saying that faith is destiny.

About free will how does it go against destiny?
Does that make sense.
We could also talk about fate as well.

[usman.khawar]

Isn't there such a thing as : 'I just know because I know'. Instinct. ?
knowledge is great but knowledge without the readiness for it is not so/


.

knowledge is gained by instincts.Through knowledge person reaches at the stage of intellect. an intellectual when focus on some point of his subject reaches at the stage of intution. what is ahead ? this is not your concern or question so leave it.

But God/Faith is found little ahead from instincts. He cannot be captured by given 5 instincts. Remember if you really want to find the God! God is not the by product of worldy researches, It has to be the top priority of your intellectual curosity.

[Sydneysider]

I have no belief in destiny and see "faith" as a tool used for manipulation. I view the world as more random.

There are two certainties my mother taught me, death and taxes. Seems about right to me.

[Volya]

I think that we do all have a 'destiny'. We might not know what it is, we might never know what it is. But it's there, though you could not fulfill it.

[cafolini]

I think that we do all have a 'destiny'. We might not know what it is, we might never know what it is. But it's there, though you could not fulfill it.

Sometimes the best commedians are completely unaware of being one. What you are saying here is that you do not know where you'll end up tomorrow but you will be there even though you cannot predict it. Not too bad for a 15-year-old.

[cacian]

[QUOTE=Sydneysider;1173320]I have no belief in destiny and see "faith" as a tool used for manipulation. I view the world as more random.
Do you mean people are random.


There are two certainties my mother taught me, death and taxes. Seems about right to me.

That goes without saying. Death is a rite of passage and fact. I guess it is there as a prevention otherwise one would ran away forever. Where would there be?
Taxes evaders money are a state of mind and created to deter the living out of someone. An act of vivification but without the substance.


I think that we do all have a 'destiny'. We might not know what it is, we might never know what it is. But it's there, though you could not fulfill it.
Destiny in one's hand or one makes their bed and lay on it.
I think there is some truth in that.
Life is laid rigidely and so one can have a guess what life is about.
That is destiny.
Routine is another. I mean it is not as if one is going to turn into a superman tomorrow right? It is not going to happen so it is clear from the outset that man is just mant plain and simple. That is another destiny. Man will remain as he is now. He is not going to grow into a tree or turn into a Gulliver or an Alice in Wonderland.
He is not going to meet his, as Darwin suggested his evolutionay ancestor and have a party.
He is going to stick to his looks because he likes his mirrors that with the hope that Hulk might never pop out to scare the daylight out of him. I think man is predestined to try and make sense of himself. That is as far man would go.



Sometimes the best commedians are completely unaware of being one. What you are saying here is that you do not know where you'll end up tomorrow but you will be there even though you cannot predict it. Not too bad for a 15-year-old.

How does a comedian who is a comedian not know they are one?

[Sydneysider]

Hi Cacian.
The uncertainty principle is something I think is a good guide to how the universe works. This applies also to humans, being as they are part of the universe. People can and do surprise with actions, words, illness etc. There are patterns within nature, but random events occur within patterns.

As for death and taxes? I suppose I await death and pay tax for the privilege. :-)

[cacian]

Hi Cacian.
The uncertainty principle is something I think is a good guide to how the universe works.

Hi Sydneysider
I have tried to get into the uncertainty principle but I cannot make head or tail of it. As always theories and principle are never to the point and so I find my mind wondering of somewhere else a bit more certain.
Would you mind elaborating in your own words, not google haha, what you mean by this principle.
As far as I have gone with this, is I that I have looked at it linguistically.
A principle is a positive generative word as oppose a degenerative/negative.
It means something that we adhere to not by right but by logical reasoning.
Uncertainty means not certain.
From a linguistic point of view to the together cancel each other.
Itis a bit like saying black and white. Two opposites cancel each other.


This applies also to humans, being as they are part of the universe. People can and do surprise with actions, words, illness etc. There are patterns within nature, but random events occur within patterns.
People do things because they can. That has already been established. One can see it all around. We have outpassed ourselves and gone no else has ever dared before.
I do think the word surprises no longer fit.
About patterns:
What patterns are in nature and what is a random event?
Do you mean to say that nature is random as well as patternede?
Sorry I do not understand.


As for death and taxes? I suppose I await death and pay tax for the privilege. :-)
I see. I take it the other way around.
I only await for myself everything else can chose whatever.
I wonder if death awaits for anyone?
Maybe it likes to think it can have a break from too many unecessary dying people.

[Sydneysider]

Hi mate.

Just got in from a nice meal with good wine. Unsure if I can do your questions justice.

The uncertainty principle proved than under the exact same conditions variations can and do occur.

As for humans choosing their path? Random events interfere beyond an individual's own control. Car accidents, illness, running into old friends on the street. We simply lack the capacity to fully control of the world in which we live. Tsunamis, volcanos etc. Could the elder Pliny fix the situation after Vesuvius erupted? Of course not.

As far as I can tell from observation, human beings are simply animals trying to survive within the chaos that is the universe. Human beings, to their credit do a very fine job. To a point. Even our great success may one day destroy life as we know it. Is the destruction of the atmosphere, the vacuum created among fish stocks something we have controlled? Or was it chaos removing control from human grasp? It is illogical to wipe out food stocks. Did humans intend this outcome or did it get out of control?

As for waiting for death? I don't do this, sitting in a chair counting the minutes until unable to count again. I go about my life and do what little I can to improve the world.

:-)

[Volya]

Sometimes the best commedians are completely unaware of being one. What you are saying here is that you do not know where you'll end up tomorrow but you will be there even though you cannot predict it. Not too bad for a 15-year-old.

..that's not what I meant xD

I mean that we all have a 'destiny' - something that we have to do, or a place we have to be. There is only one. However, whether or not we follow our destiny is down to the person themselves.

[cafolini]

..that's not what I meant xD

I mean that we all have a 'destiny' - something that we have to do, or a place we have to be. There is only one. However, whether or not we follow our destiny is down to the person themselves.

It's getting better. Now you can avoid your destiny if you do not follow it. Five more years and you'll be as good as I am. Do you know that yesterday I ended up at my friend's party, thus causing my destiny to happen backward?
:party:

[Sydneysider]

..that's not what I meant xD

I mean that we all have a 'destiny' - something that we have to do, or a place we have to be. There is only one. However, whether or not we follow our destiny is down to the person themselves.


Hi Volya.

If humans had a destiny to follow, where would an individual find it? After all, we are not given specific instructions at birth.

What often happens is that children are indoctrinated into one of many "systems". The system itself based on nothing more than an idea somebody had one day. Ultimately this is a societal group forcing its will upon an individual child who is powerless.

So can the outcome of an idea that someone else chose truly be called "destiny"?

[Volya]

You have misinterpreted what I was saying xD Just because we have a destiny it doesn't mean it WILL happen.

[Sydneysider]

Hi Volya.
Get used to people misinterpreting your meaning. It is a lifelong journey of misunderstanding. :-)

Funnily "misunderstanding" is at the core of one's life. You see, in a way, you make my point. There is no clear definition of destiny. Let alone an individual's personal destiny.

I do not claim to know anything. Happily I grew up alone and so was not subjected to any ideal or system that claimed to represent or be truth. Truth? WTF is truth? So all I have is questions. Well I have been asking questions for over 40 years and you know what, the only decent answers I heard related to physicality. For example, "this is how you aim a rifle" or manipulate a drumstick. When it came to questions of truth or destiny or whatever, there has never been a definitive answer.

So what is destiny? In a random universe with meteors flying around randomly, and animals being killed and people getting sick and lunatics in cinemas armed with guns...there doesn't seem to be any destiny at play at all. Because destiny implies order. And as I mentioned, the uncertainty principle disproved order.

[cacian]

..that's not what I meant xD

I mean that we all have a 'destiny' - something that we have to do, or a place we have to be. There is only one. However, whether or not we follow our destiny is down to the person themselves.

Destiny is not about a must it is a way.
There is no free fall or free for all all where I just lead myself astray and see where it leads me.
we depend on others and everything and that is partly destiny.
Decisions are taken and resolution are made in order to complete that destiny.
Abstaining from doing something is called a choice.
Makig mistakes is part of that destiny but picking up one sefl up and moving on is completing that destiny.
There is not getting away from the fact that we are to follow a route,good or bad or both, hopefully for the better, from when we are born until death it part.
There is no mysteries about it.
Life is a destiny and I feel lucky to be part of it.
I could not have existed if it was not for both destiny myself and life.

[cafolini]

Hi Volya.

If humans had a destiny to follow, where would an individual find it? After all, we are not given specific instructions at birth.

What often happens is that children are indoctrinated into one of many "systems". The system itself based on nothing more than an idea somebody had one day. Ultimately this is a societal group forcing its will upon an individual child who is powerless.

So can the outcome of an idea that someone else chose truly be called "destiny"?

Only comically.
:leaving:

[cacian]

Hi mate.

Just got in from a nice meal with good wine. Unsure if I can do your questions justice.

The uncertainty principle proved than under the exact same conditions variations can and do occur.

I need an example.
Two different things can occur under the same condition. Do you mean in rain and shine in the summer?
Sun and rain are two different things but they occur in the summer.


As for humans choosing their path? Random events interfere beyond an individual's own control. Car accidents, illness, running into old friends on the street. We simply lack the capacity to fully control of the world in which we live. Tsunamis, volcanos etc. Could the elder Pliny fix the situation after Vesuvius erupted? Of course not.
It is true to a certain extent but one can preditct what might go wrong and so prepare for better adjustement for it.
I think it is not about control but about awarness of what may go wrong and ensure it does not happen.
Vesivius did not explode because it felt like it. It had a reason.


As far as I can tell from observation, human beings are simply animals trying to survive within the chaos that is the universe. Human beings, to their credit do a very fine job. To a point. Even our great success may one day destroy life as we know it.

I see people as people. Animals belong in the wilderness.
I think people are chaotics.
Life will not stop or disappear under a rubble but what might happen is people destroying themselves instead. If humans ever get wipped off this earth , just like the dinosaurs, it would not be because of a meteor blasting off from the heavens but it would be because people did itto themselves.
That is a possible tragedy not to be sniffed out.


Is the destruction of the atmosphere, the vacuum created among fish stocks something we have controlled? Or was it chaos removing control from human grasp? It is illogical to wipe out food stocks. Did humans intend this outcome or did it get out of control?

This is how I see chaos. Chaos is what people do as a result of not thinking ahead.
This is chaos anything else is harmony because nature will always adjust.
See the volcano Vesivius it did not stop from being a volcano and did not disappear.
What it did is explode yes but only to take people's lives.
Does Vesivisius still stand?
Yes it does. That is nature for you. It is strong and readjustable.
Men destroy themselves but what they wont do is destroy nature earth and life.
They may burn fields and pollute the skies but nature always finds a way to cleanse itself because that is what nature does best. Readjust
You have got to love nature for that. :wink5:

As for waiting for death? I don't do this, sitting in a chair counting the minutes until unable to count again. I go about my life and do what little I can to improve the world.

:-)
Yes I would leave counting for the accountants.
I think life is worth taking a look at at least it won't take life away from you.
An accoutant does.

[Sydneysider]

Hi Cacian.

I am sorry to say I do not comprehend you. I cannot answer. However I will try.

As for the uncertainty principle, it is heavily documented and easy to research. The most simplistic answer has been given already.

Humans differing from animals?? Is that what you mean? If so, human beings are mamals. Just like whales and tigers.

please forgive my misunderstanding. I fail to see how what you said removes humans from chaos.

[Sydneysider]

Also: I have lived in the wilderness. Yes I lived by myself in the Australian bush.

Was I a different being while in the bush to that who lived in the city? Not in my experience. I was threatened by far stronger animals, namely sharks crocodiles and feral pigs. These creatures had no regard for my vision of my worth on this planet. To the shark and crocodile I was simply a meal. To the pig I was encroaching upon their territory. Of course this idea is ego based. Maybe the pig just thought I stank. And indeed I did.

[Volya]

cacian: I'm sure you've been told this many times, but humans are no different to animals.

[cacian]

cacian: I'm sure you've been told this many times, but humans are no different to animals.

Hi Volya yes I keep being told that.
I have my own idea what a human is. I happen to be one myself.
I decided it is nothing to do with an animal.
I am happy with my decision as you are happy with yours.
Is that ok?

[cacian]

[QUOTE=Sydneysider;1173712]Hi Cacian.

I am sorry to say I do not comprehend you. I cannot answer. However I will try.

Sorry Sydney what is it you do not comprehend? the whole thing? haha.:p
Sorry about this.
My fault. I think differently and sometimes the words do not spell out properly for me. It is hard when English is my second language.
I will see if I can go over it again.
I have rewritten the above post. See if it makes a bit more sense now.


As for the uncertainty principle, it is heavily documented and easy to research. The most simplistic answer has been given already.

I think I asked earlier about one simple example to give me an idea of what undcertainty principle is.
I have looked it up I do not seem to be able to get any.


Humans differing from animals?? Is that what you mean? If so, human beings are mamals. Just like whales and tigers.
I know you will not agree with me but I do not see humans as the same as animals. That is a choice I make.


please forgive my misunderstanding. I fail to see how what you said removes humans from chaos.
Will come back to this.

[Volya]

Is that ok?

Not really, but I doubt anything I say will make a difference to your delusional mind.

[cacian]

Not really, but I doubt anything I say will make a difference to your delusional mind.

Well one must decide for themselves about anything they come across with.
If Science is not a the bible then I am no mamal then the mamal itself.
I think differently from I cannot help it. I appreciate people taking time and effort in filling up books with research and giving view points as facts for me to learn and alook at. I hear what they are saying but at the end of the day I will only take from it what my mind tells me.
This means that I am able to think beyond the box. I do not settle for any book let alone science. I never settle in fact and I enjoy it this way.
I prefer not to argue about my own decisions with regards to yours because I enjoy chatting to you and like reading what you post.

[Sydneysider]

Sorry guys. I was really tired. Many rehearsals led to a huge weekend.

My original point stands though. I am just an animal. Ex girlfriends can verify. :-)

[cacian]

Sorry guys. I was really tired. Many rehearsals led to a huge weekend.

My original point stands though. I am just an animal. Ex girlfriends can verify. :-)

Verify that you are the same as animal?
How?

[Volya]

cacian: We. Are. Animals. There is a scientific, biological definition of an animal. We fit into that definition. We are carbon-based life forms. So are animals. We respire. So do animals. We need to eat and drink to live. So do animals. We communicate. So do animals.

There is no difference between a 'animal' and a human. We are one and the same. In fact, we are so closely related to some animals, that the idea of putting us into the 'pan' family (branch, family, genus? I'm not sure of the correct terminology). We should really be called 'pan sapien'.

[cafolini]

cacian: We. Are. Animals. There is a scientific, biological definition of an animal. We fit into that definition. We are carbon-based life forms. So are animals. We respire. So do animals. We need to eat and drink to live. So do animals. We communicate. So do animals.

There is no difference between a 'animal' and a human. We are one and the same. In fact, we are so closely related to some animals, that the idea of putting us into the 'pan' family (branch, family, genus? I'm not sure of the correct terminology). We should really be called 'pan sapien'.

Well, you can't exaggerate. We are not one and the same. It is true that we are not different in being able to think, or having conscience. But we are very different in the far more complicated and far more complex machine. If history could start again, and we put several couples of different species on earth, history would repeat in many ways. We would dominate because as a result of what we are, we could not avoid it.

[Volya]

We ARE the same cafolini. Humans are animals. I never said we were the same as other species.

[cacian]

Well, you can't exaggerate. We are not one and the same. It is true that we are not different in being able to think, or having conscience. But we are very different in the far more complicated and far more complex machine. If history could start again, and we put several couples of different species on earth, history would repeat in many ways. We would dominate because as a result of what we are, we could not avoid it.

Do animals think and are conscious in the same way that a human does?