Beggars

[papayahed]

What do you guys do when there is a beggar on the street? Do you give them money? do you not? Do you buy them a sandwich?

And for the religious, doesn't it say somewhere that you never know when it's an angel in disguise? What do you do?

[papayahed]

A couple weeks ago I was heading towards Dallas. There was a couple at a gas station with backpacks and a sign that said "Homeless, trying to get to Tyler, Please Help". Now I was going in the opposite direction so I was good. Had I been going in their direction I still probably wouldn't have given them a lift, but I would have felt a slight twinge of guilt.

[Sancho]

When somebody on the street asks me for money I’ll generally make a snap judgment that goes something like this: Is this person panhandling by choice or out of necessity?

I almost always fork over a few pesos if I’m in a tough town. On the other hand, if I’m in a place like Portland or San Diego and an able-bodied twenty-something with a guitar and a backpack asks me for money, I’ll usually hang on to my dough (unless of course he can play The Yellow Rose of Texas and sing it – with feeling)

A year or so ago I had a guy ask me for money as I going into a McDonalds in NYC. I brushed him off, but then as I was ordering my meal inside and the girl behind the counter said, “Anything else, sir?” I said, “Oh yeah, gimme a Happy Meal and a Coke, take-away.”

I gave it to the guy out front and said, “Hey man, I got you some stuff.” I half expected him to throw it in my face, but he said thanks and dug right in.

[Bluehound]

My dad was a busker, he was famous in our hometown as The One Man Band , as a kind of salute to his memory I usually give buskers a bit of change if they look like they are making an effort (you do get some pretty rubbish ones).

However I tend to avoid out and out beggars as some of our local ones can be intimidating and rude, but occasionally I buy the big issue.
Anyway most of the time I am out with just the "plastic" so I genuinely can't "spare a bit of change, love ? "

Once when I was visiting London I saw an old man rooting through the litter bins and drinking a bit of left over orange juice, it nearly broke my heart to be honest. I thought about him all the rest of that trip and felt so bad for just walking past when my friend who was with me ushered me on.
There but for the grace of God and all that.

[Paulclem]

There was a guy sat next to our bus stop today - forties, not scruffy, but perhaps drunk. I didn't give him anything because I thought it would just go down his neck.

Recently I saw a posting on our local police twitter, (yeah I'm an up to date guy now), showing a picture of a beggar who had been fined/ jailed for aggressive begging in a nearby city. This bloke was a complete pain, and had been done in our city for the same, and had moved elsewhere to do it, where he had also come up against the law. I think he's got mental health problems - it certainly seemed that way the times I've seen him - but giving him money certainly wasn't the solution. He's been at it at least 6 or 7 years. In the current state of things it's pretty insoluble. It said he'd been done for drug and alcohol abuse too. There doesn't seem to be any system for dealing with a bloke like him.

On the other hand I've been to India where kids beg on the street. What do you do? They were probably run by gangs anyway. We used to give them sweets.

[JuniperWoolf]

I saw my first begger when I was fifteen on a student exchange trip to Toronto, it was a lot of our's first begger. He was standing outside of the CN tower, uber dirty, long hair and beard, cardboard sign, the whole shebang. Most of us had only seen them in movies, it was a bit of a culture shock. Some of us couldn't wrap our heads around it. "Why don't they have jobs? What if they get sick? Why doesn't the city take care of them?" I move around a lot nowadays and have seen a lot of beggers since turning eighteen, whether I give them money or not depends on whether I have any on me and if I feel like it.

[Paulclem]

I saw my first begger when I was fifteen on a student exchange trip to Toronto, it was a lot of our's first begger. He was standing outside of the CN tower, uber dirty, long hair and beard, cardboard sign, the whole shebang. Most of us had only seen them in movies, it was a bit of a culture shock. Some of us couldn't wrap our heads around it. "Why don't they have jobs? What if they get sick? Why doesn't the city take care of them?" I move around a lot nowadays and have seen a lot of beggers since turning eighteen, whether I give them money or not depends on whether I have any on me and if I feel like it.

I hadn't eally seen any until my first trip abroad. At that time in the UK - early 90's, you'd only see the tramps - those who travelled from place to place, or an occasional mad person. You didn't tend to get them in the small cities I used to frequent, though no doubt there were plenty in the larger ones.

They became more prevalent in cities during the 90s in the UK. Oddly enough they seemed to grow in number during the boom years up to 2008.

The local authority has adopted a no begging policy for the city, on the grounds that there are agencies who will deal with them, and the social security net. I know that the local agencies get together during very bad weather to, between them, provide extra beds, but there are always a few addicts and drunks. Fewer now though. The no begging rule seems to generally work. So long as it is backed by some kind of provision or opportunity, then perhaps it's a good thing.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I don't because I'm disabled, as weird as that sounds. And not because it's a "I'm disabled and I've done something with my life so I don't feel obligated" mindset, it's actually because I'd just find it an odd situation for me, someone obviously in a not-so-great situation (not financially, but otherwise) giving money to them. Maybe they'd feel weird, too. I don't know. I just don't bother with it.

[tonywalt]

To be honest it's shocks me, as it's not a familiar site here. I believe there are substance abuse issues behind the majority of these cases and homeless shelters do not tolerate substance and alcohol. No easy answer there, but there should be an answer:

I think by focusing on treatment for drug and alcohol abuse in a robust manner rather than the criminality of possession would solve 70% of the problem.

More importantly, on a community level, it would be encouraging to see the same Energy that the churches put into opposing gay marriage and other social issues, instead put into helping other people(granted even the self inflicted ones). They are so organized in these social/family value effort(s) - it would have great positive impact on the problem. Plus given local problems are best handled locally - it is the best fit in terms of solution.

On a personal level, I tend to offer to buy food. I can appreciate how one can get lost in the shuffle and make bad choices in terms of behaviour and direction.

Then again, I can see if I did come from a big city my sensitivity would be dulled. I hope that never happens on so many levels.

[Delta40]

I usually buy the big issue and it also depends on my frame of mind. When I see the same people over and over again, I'm not inclined to help them.

[MystyrMystyry]

There was a time when I'd flip them a coin, but then I saw an investigative television report and discovered that most of the local ones were making more begging than I earnt busking.

Now I keep my coins and one day I'll buy a new yacht with the savings.

[Sancho]

I’m an easy mark for kids.

I had to pay this little guy 20 or 30 Rupees before he’d let me pass. (That’s Mrs. Sancho to the left, almost out of the picture, grinning)
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/givemeadollar.jpg

Here are a couple of mini-buskers down in Buenos Aires. The second I snapped the photo the little girl was all over me. That snapshot cost me 5 Pesos. (That’s me in the ball cap in the window reflection)
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/pesosorelse.jpg

These two little sweethearts were hanging on the side of the cab in heavy traffic in Mumbai. They got about 50 Rupees out of El Sancho (and they almost got his camera too).
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/rupeeoryourlife.jpg

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Damn kids! Makes me think of that overrated movie Slumdog Millionaire.

P.S. You're wife looks like a looker, Sancho. :thumbsup:

[qimissung]

Yeah, you and Mrs. Sancho look like a handsome couple. although I always thought of you as a burly guy for some reason. :D

Sometimes I give. I actually haven't seen any beggars for awhile. I used to take a toll road to work and there was one guy there every day for most of that year. I gave him a dollar occasionally. My son, bless his heart, once threw a beggar some money from the school bus he was on. I'm not sure if that was the same year he got kicked off the bus for misbehaving. Kids.

I have a friend who keeps blankets in her car to give away, which I think is an awesome idea. I never think about that when I'm at Wal-Mart, but I think I'll pick up a couple in October, when the weather is about to change.

Last year when we had parties at the end of the school year, the teacher in the room next door had a lot of food left over after one, and she took the food down to a place where a lot of indigent people hung out. That was a cool idea, I thought.

[Darcy88]

It depends on how they ask and whether or not I have much money. When I have money I give generously to the right beggar. There is one guy in town who begs and who I've gotten to know and I often give him a few dollars. I have busked before and I will busk again, though only when I'm so poor I literally need the money. So when I have money I give it away because when I don't have any I often rely on the generosity of friends and, on the occasion that I busk, strangers.

[Annamariah]

I saw my first beggars a few years ago when the Romanians started coming to Finland. I never give them money. If they are so poor, how could they afford to travel all the way here? Also, the crime rate rose quite a lot once they started coming here. (Nowadays there are less of them than there used to be, since most Finns have stopped giving them money.)

[Buckthorn]

I never give to big issue sellers. I'm not sure why, I used to but stopped (I might have read an unfavourable article about them somewhere).
In the past when a beggar asked for money I would look ignore them (partly through being a student and having no money to give), but now I work it just depends on if I have money or not.
A few months ago I was walking through Liverpool and someone was asking for money, as normal I ignored them but something about him nagged at me - I think it was because he looked so hungry (and I had just been paid a few days earlier). After I had walked about 3 or 4 hundred yards I turned back and gave him £5.
I don't know if he spent it on food, drink or drugs, but I know that for at least one day he had the option of not going without food and in all honesty I did not miss the money.
Since then if I have some money to give I will do, I would like to think that if I ended up homeless that someone would do the same for me.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I will say this: there are a lot ore beggars around here the past couple of years than there were before. It used to be you never saw them. Now, depending on how much/where you travel, you see them everyday. There used to be one I. Particular that would stand at an intersection I use. One thing I've learned is they're not dumb, because he knew this intersection was mostly used by people coming home from St. Louis, so he knew they had jobs. It wasn't unusual to see people handing him money. I always wonder how much he made. I've heard stories of professional beggars. One guy in particular made 30-40 thousand dollars a year begging outside sporting events. Not a bad haul.

[tonywalt]

I saw my first beggars a few years ago when the Romanians started coming to Finland. I never give them money. If they are so poor, how could they afford to travel all the way here? Also, the crime rate rose quite a lot once they started coming here. (Nowadays there are less of them than there used to be, since most Finns have stopped giving them money.)

I do see more and more "Romanians and Bulgarians" in Helsinki (most or all are gypsies-from my eyes), but opposing my earlier statement these types are professional beggars and thieves who pass it on from generation to generation. I have no time for them.

[Emil Miller]

I do see more and more "Romanians and Bulgarians" in Helsinki (most or all are gypsies-from my eyes), but opposing my earlier statement these types are professional beggars and thieves who pass it on from generation to generation. I have no time for them.

They are also present in London where some years ago, they managed to lift £1000 from one of my accounts. The bank immediately repaid the difference but as far as I'm concerned they should be hunted down and disposed of.

[Darcy88]

Unless a beggar comes off aggressively I am always nice. I am usually too broke to help them but I do what I can when I can. People who hate beggars need to go read some enlightened literature and learn the sublime beauty and simple necessity of compassion.

[Helga]

There are no beggars on the ice. I saw one for the first time though when I was 12 and in Hamburg Germany. it was a guy around 18 with a really skinny rottweiler. I kinda felt sorry for the dog but my aunt who was with me dragged me along. I didn't get it then but now I think it's because he was on drugs.

But like I said no beggars on the ice but a lot of homeless drunks though but even they are on some sort of welfare so they don't bother much.

[Darcy88]

You see, I know why I will never have to beg. I have never begged, been starving, close to being malnourished, milked my parents and friends of every scrap of food or cup of coffee they could spare and never begged. But anyway. I will never have to beg for one simple reason - I look like a movie star and I come of as incredibly charming, which means all I have to do is find a rich heiress to get hitched to. Every young woman has a rebellion streak in her. A rich young heiress, encountering an impoverished model-like poet like me, will surely be unable to pass up the chance to live out the grand Tristan-und-Isolde-esque romance that awaits.

[Buh4Bee]

Darcy- you're a gem. You should move to Hollywood, it's the perfect place for you. If you can't find the heiress, you can find work playing a beggar in a movie.

[Delta40]

I've never seen children begging in the metro area but it could be different in the outback towns and that would be heartbreaking for me and change my viewpoint.

[Darcy88]

Darcy- you're a gem. You should move to Hollywood, it's the perfect place for you. If you can't find the heiress, you can find work playing a beggar in a movie.

Believe me, I have thought of going to Hollywood many, many times. But I think I prefer the writing life. I would not want to put up with the constant scrutiny that actors receive. That industry is so much about image. I am not about image. I am real, too real for Hollywood. I would rather live poor and keep my privacy and integrity than dance for the cameras and look down on my humble roots. I don't like cameras. I am very good in front of a camera, I have actually done a lot of acting practice, but just the camera itself, the intrusion it presents, turns me off of that industry.

Furthermore, I am very family-centric. I want above all to HAVE A FAMILY and take care of the family members I presently have. That might seem easier with an actor's salary, but the constant harassment celebrities receive can drive a person quite literally mad.

I am already respected in my circle as a poet. I think the poet lifestyle is better and easier on the family.

[Shea]

What do you guys do when there is a beggar on the street? Do you give them money? do you not? Do you buy them a sandwich?

And for the religious, doesn't it say somewhere that you never know when it's an angel in disguise? What do you do?

The verse you’re thinking of is Hebrews 13:2 "Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it."

This thread is really interesting to me because this is a sub-plot to my book.

When my hubby and I were on our honeymoon in Plymouth, a man approached us trying to sell beaded necklaces out of his backpack. We didn’t have enough cash at the time to buy one. So instead, he asked us for some spare change so he could get a cup of coffee. My first impulse was to buy him the coffee and a meal ourselves with our card (there was a shop not 20 feet away), but my hubby was already digging into his pocket for some coins. He gave him about a dollar and I thought, “Eh, we would have given him cash to buy a necklace anyway.” We were on our way back to our car and decided to stop in first at a convenience store for snacks. Apparently, we had given the man just enough to add to whatever else he had, because after we'd gathered our snacks and were going up to the counter to pay, there he was, buying beer!

So after that experience, no, I never give money unless it’s in the form of a gift card. I usually carry snack bars (especially now because my dining out options are incredibly limited), and I’ll offer them out. If I have the time, I’ll run through a drive-thru and get them an entire “super-sized” meal.

Once a panhandler, who had a sign saying “Hungry”, turned away in disgust when I offered him a pastry (untouched) that I’d picked up at a coffee shop. I really want to believe that his attitude was because he was a diabetic or celiac and couldn’t eat it, or even that it was because it was merely wrapped in cellophane and he feared malicious intent on my part. But that was the only time that happened. Most of the time, the panhandlers seem grateful for my food offerings.

[Delta40]

Yeah but if I was a beggar and it was the 10th pastry of the day being offered, I'd get pretty nauseated too....which brings us to the ultimate question:

CAN BEGGARS BE CHOOSERS or are we just looking for some grateful reward for ourselves?

[tonywalt]

Yeah but if I was a beggar and it was the 10th pastry of the day being offered, I'd get pretty nauseated too....which brings us to the ultimate question:

CAN BEGGARS BE CHOOSERS or are we just looking for some grateful reward for ourselves?

Well beggers too can strive for a balanced diet. Simply solved my standing outside different kinds of restaurants, bars, and bistros.

I normally opt to stand outside the Ritz Carlton beach bar - they make a killer dirty martini and excellent lumpfish caviar on Waters Biscuits.

[tonywalt]

They are also present in London where some years ago, they managed to lift £1000 from one of my accounts. The bank immediately repaid the difference but as far as I'm concerned they should be hunted down and disposed of.

Yea, one of the litter (Freudian slip) ones snatched my girlfriends bracklet off her arm, and when i chased him (which was the point of the distraction) the bigger one tried to take her purse. It was a helluva calamity. The other Roma stood around and watched. I think they enjoyed my rather loud dissertation on their culture.

[Sancho]

Yea, one of the litter (Freudian slip) ones snatched my girlfriends bracklet off her arm, and when i chased him (which was the point of the distraction) the bigger one tried to take her purse. It was a helluva calamity. The other Roma stood around and watched. I think they enjoyed my rather loud dissertation on their culture.

Well, I’d certainly draw a distinction between a mugger and a beggar, or for that matter a larcenist (or even a gypsy). Additionally, I’ve never been all that squeamish about giving a wino some spare change and knowing that he’ll probably spend it on a bottle of Mad Dog. I think the depths of his addiction has taken away his ability to choose and I doubt rehab is truly an option for him. Therefore, I go back to my original post in this thread – the snap judgment I make when somebody on the street asks me for money: Is this person out here by choice or necessity? Maybe my pocket change will take away (even temporarily) a little pain in that person’s life.

[Annamariah]

I do see more and more "Romanians and Bulgarians" in Helsinki (most or all are gypsies-from my eyes), but opposing my earlier statement these types are professional beggars and thieves who pass it on from generation to generation. I have no time for them.

You're in Helsinki?

Yeah, they are Romanian and Bulgarian gypsies who come here, and there is some organized crime involved.

[tonywalt]

You're in Helsinki?

Yeah, they are Romanian and Bulgarian gypsies who come here, and there is some organized crime involved.

I go there on business. There was a whole pack of them on Mannerheimintie and Aleksanterinkatu.

[Paulclem]

I’m an easy mark for kids.

I had to pay this little guy 20 or 30 Rupees before he’d let me pass. (That’s Mrs. Sancho to the left, almost out of the picture, grinning)
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/givemeadollar.jpg

Here are a couple of mini-buskers down in Buenos Aires. The second I snapped the photo the little girl was all over me. That snapshot cost me 5 Pesos. (That’s me in the ball cap in the window reflection)
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/pesosorelse.jpg

These two little sweethearts were hanging on the side of the cab in heavy traffic in Mumbai. They got about 50 Rupees out of El Sancho (and they almost got his camera too).
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/rupeeoryourlife.jpg

When were you in Mumbai Sancho?

I was there in 1990-91, and the whole lack of social care had a big effect on me. I think the origins of this seem to lie in attitudes - perhaps formed by caste. You could see it outside the Taj Mahal hotel, (the one attacked by the terrorists last year), where there would be a family with little kids living on the pavement whilst rich Indians passed them by without a glance as they went into the hotel.

No social care - lack of provision even for children, and you end up with child beggars who are probably being run by gangs in the tourist areas. Disgraceful then and now considering the economic might that India is developing. It makes you wonder how long they can sustain such a discriminatory system.

[Emil Miller]

I was in Munich when I heard of the overthrow and summary execution of Ceausescu and his wife by firing squad. Another scumbag dealt with was my immediately reaction but, given the subsequent sequence of events whereby begging and thievery have become commonplace in various European countries as result of the influx of Romanians, I feel a lot more sympathy for the Romanian dictator than I did at the time.

[Paulclem]

I was in Munich when I heard of the overthrow and summary execution of Ceausescu and his wife by firing squad. Another scumbag dealt with was my immediately reaction but, given the subsequent sequence of events whereby begging and thievery have become commonplace in various European countries as result of the influx of Romanians, I feel a lot more sympathy for the Romanian dictator than I did at the time.

Funnily enough we were on our way to India, via a number of European countries and Turkey, when he fell. We were on a train on our way from Belgrade to Thessaloniki. We were in the end carriage, and we saw three young blokes climb onto the train between. They seemed ok, and one of them spoke good English. he said that they were escaping from Romania after working for Ceaucescu's regime. They just disappeared under the train when we crossed the border and the new guard checked all the tickets. We got off in Thessaloniki with them, and met them a couple of times. Later, one of them wrote to us saying they had found work on fishing boats. We were pleased for them.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I do see more and more "Romanians and Bulgarians" in Helsinki (most or all are gypsies-from my eyes), but opposing my earlier statement these types are professional beggars and thieves who pass it on from generation to generation. I have no time for them.


They are also present in London where some years ago, they managed to lift £1000 from one of my accounts. The bank immediately repaid the difference but as far as I'm concerned they should be hunted down and disposed of.

Bloomin heck. There are a few Slovak gypsies (?) in Sheffield at the moment and without being prejudiced, and by all accounts, all they want to do is just steal everything in sight, no matter what it is. This is true in the schools, supermarkets etc and believe it or not there were two little kids on the tennis courts the other day trying to steal one of my balls! "Is that my ball? Yes it is give it me back. Shoo" was the response, but they generally are becoming a bit of a pain. I hope we don't get any more of them. I'm sure it is just the vast majority ruining it for the minority though as they can't all be that bad???


As for giving in general - not often to beggars but sometimes, probably rarely if truth be told. 50/50 for buskers if they are good and I'm not in a hurry, just loose change - I don't consider buskers beggars at all. Big Issue sellers, not any more because they are always shouting and it gets on my nerves. I would be more willing to buy one if they shut up for a minute. Besides, it has been said that there are very few if any genuine homeless people here but I don't know if that is true or not.


I had to pay this little guy 20 or 30 Rupees before he’d let me pass. (That’s Mrs. Sancho to the left, almost out of the picture, grinning)

See I would find that really annoying. I don't know how much 20/30 Rupees is, but if someone blocked my way I would not be happy.

[Buh4Bee]

Sorry to break the flow, I'm just going to answer the questions in the OP.

Where I live now there are almost no homeless or beggars, because I live in such an isolated area. In the bigger surrounding cities, you may see a few, but they are not aggressive. They usually just sit there on the side of the sidewalk with a cardboard sign. In most cases I just walk by, but if I have food I will give it to them. I have bought homeless people food in the past, because I may talk to them and ask them if they are hungry. Some homeless just want money, so I tell them I don't have cash only a debit card. I learned all this from my sister-in-law, who is a minister in the States. She always says, don't give money, instead give food or water.

[Buh4Bee]

Furthermore, I am very family-centric. I want above all to HAVE A FAMILY and take care of the family members I presently have. That might seem easier with an actor's salary, but the constant harassment celebrities receive can drive a person quite literally mad.

I am already respected in my circle as a poet. I think the poet lifestyle is better and easier on the family.

:thumbs_up

[Brielle92]

I live in Beirut and there are TONS of beggars in some areas. If they're kids, I buy them a sandwich, so they don't give the money to their parents.

My friend educates children who can't afford school and there's this one beggar girl who I know she teaches. The girl is always at my favourite coffee shop. Once I saw her there and she sat down with me and asked to call my friend so I let her call her and bought her a milkshake. The staff said "you actually let her use your phone? It was so sad...

[Brielle92]

Also there's a song by Arctic Monkeys called Plastic Tramp, about a fake beggar. The lyrics are pretty good but harsh. Unfortunately it's the truth though...

[Sancho]

When were you in Mumbai Sancho?

I was there in 1990-91, and the whole lack of social care had a big effect on me. I think the origins of this seem to lie in attitudes - perhaps formed by caste. You could see it outside the Taj Mahal hotel, (the one attacked by the terrorists last year), where there would be a family with little kids living on the pavement whilst rich Indians passed them by without a glance as they went into the hotel.

No social care - lack of provision even for children, and you end up with child beggars who are probably being run by gangs in the tourist areas. Disgraceful then and now considering the economic might that India is developing. It makes you wonder how long they can sustain such a discriminatory system.

That trip was Dec/Jan, '07/'08.

I'd been there several times with my job and my señora wanted to go. Oddly enough, we both found ourselves with time off during the holidays, so we did a last-minute, shoot-from-the-hip visit to India.

In Mumbai, she and I stayed at a Sheraton in a pleasant neighborhood in town. It was a low-key area, the people were friendly, the food was good and inexpensive, and there was a gorgeous Hindu Temple near by.

One day we went down to the Taj (that's were I'd stayed earlier with my job) and over to the Oberoi to do the tourist thing. I agree with you - the begging down there is industrial-strength, and we suspected the kids were working for the man.

So anyway, we were standing out there by that big Gateway edifice and a little girl comes up to La Señora Sancho. Hollywood couldn't have come up with a better beggar. She was about belly-button high, skinny, darkly complected, barefooted, had rats-nest hair, and was wearing a dirty yellow dress. She didn't want me to take her picture, so I didn't. This is where it's important to know that my wife comes from a long line of cops and has a cynical streak a mile long. Here's the conversation between the two of them as best as I can recall:

Girl (with hands out, palms up): Money for milk, madam?
La Señora Sancho (with hands on hips and slightly bent at the waist): Where's your mother!?
G: Mother sick. Mother with baby, madam.
LSS: Where's your father?
G: Father dead. Please, madam, money for milk. Milk for baby.
LSS: Why aren't you in school?
G: No money for school, madam.
LSS: Do you have any brothers or sisters?
G: No, madam. Only me. And mother. And baby. Please, madam, money for milk.

Well this back-and-forth went on for a while and, impressively, the little girl had an answer for everything. She was quick. And so, Mrs Sancho finally fished around in her purse and gave the girl several coins. And then we wandered along the embankment for a while. Twenty minutes later we're back at the gateway and we spotted the girl standing by an ice cream stand, eating a kolfi on a stick. Mrs Sancho marched right over there and demanded and explanation:

LSS (one hand on hip, one hand pointing at girl): You said you needed money for milk!
G (one hand out, one hand firmly gripping kolfi treat): Money for milk, madam?

But she knew the gig was up.

Later that same day we were over by the Victoria Train Station, which was were I snapped the photo of the little guy. I'm certain he was not working for the man. He was self employed - half-pint entrepreneur. And he had brass. We'd've brought him home with us if we could've gotten away with it. A kid with tenacity like that would be on the fast track to a fortune 500 corporate board room in the States.

Speaking of tenacity, I agree with you Paul, the caste system has a tenacious hold on the mindset over there. I won't defend it. But I will say this: while it's tragic that there's little opportunity for upward mobility there, there's also a weird sort of piece of mind. (Weird to western minds anyway) The poor people there don't have the angst of poor people in the west, who see wealth all around them and know they have somehow failed to achieve it. For many Indians, a caste is a state of being, and hence, I don't think the upper castes look down upon the lower castes in the same way the western upper classes look down on the lower classes. In the USA anyway we see poor people as failures. There must be something wrong with them. Probably they're too lazy or stupid to make a decent living. Whereas in India, those people are poor because that's just the way it is.

Here's another thing that shocked me about India: they don't pickpocket over there. The first few times I went there, I was in my anti-pickpocket mode - walking everywhere fast, pretending I knew where I was going, with my wallet in my front pocket, and my hand on my wallet, just like I do in Paris or Madrid. Finally some British dude in a bar told me, "You know, mate, they don't pickpocket here." I said, "No kidding."

Who'd'a thunk it?

[Emil Miller]

The problem of beggars has existed since time immemorial but its present increase is, in my view, connected to globalisation. The enormous disparity in wealth between those who have used the new technology to massively increase their wealth and the rest was bound to result in a situation where the world's conurbations are increasingly blighted by those at the bottom of the scale who resort to begging. Of course, there are some beneficiaries of globalisation, such as Bill Gates, who have philanthropically donated large sums to worthy causes but it's small scale compared to the huge wealth that is increasingly being concentrated in fewer hands than perhaps at any time in history.

[cacian]

I thought chugger when I saw beggar.
They are kind of same but different at the same time.

[TurquoiseSunset]

In South Africa we have A LOT of homeless people and beggars (poor people in general for that matter). They are everywhere. Actually I'm sitting here giggling to myself at all the 'shocked' posts...you should see my neighbourhood on trash day. It shouldn't be so funny, but the contrast in our experiences...I can't help but laugh.

I encounter the most beggars at home* actually. They knock on the door asking for food, clothes, money or work (once off jobs, not permanent employment).
Food – my mom freezes left overs in empty 2 litre ice cream tubs, so when they’re full and someone asks for food, she’ll put the frozen block in a plastic bag for the beggars to take home and heat up. But then you get people who get cocky…one guy asked for frozen raw chicken pieces because he had people coming over for the weekend. Some people have asked for canned food, as in, that’s all they are willing to take. Lulz…so beggars can be choosers, people, but they really shouldn’t be. My parents’ house got a lot of traffic at one point and one day my mom was threatened by this one guy when she said she didn’t have anything to give. He was beating on the door until my mom called the police and they put him in the back of the van (because he sassed the officers). We had people begging at the door four times a day, so I told my mom that she has to pick her three or four favourites (I know) and only give to them (we only have so much food to give anyway), otherwise it’s just too dangerous and she’s home alone during the day. We also give them old clothes when they come round and we’ve cleaned out the closets or what have you.

Clothes – like I said, usually we give our old clothes to the food regulars, but sometimes we have people asking for clothes specifically, so we’ll give if we have. And then of course you get ones who ask for specific type of shoes or clothing items: “I want work boots…size 8”. Oh yes, of course sir, kindly wait here while I go see if we have something in your size. Seriously, some people think there is an endless supply of food and clothes. I know why they think that, but it’s still annoying sometimes. I don’t expect someone to grovel or anything, but not even my family walks into my house demanding I hand over certain items.

Work – some people ask to wash the car or do some gardening. We don’t take people because we have garden services etc.
Money – we usually don’t give money, but every now and then we give to people who ask for shelter admittance or paraffin, or something like that. This post is going to get out of hand though if I tell all my ‘money’ stories too: you get the scammers and crazies who come round to tell you the exact same looooooong sob story about whatever, every time. They NEVER get money. I’ve also heard a lot of stories where people decline giving money but offer to make food and then as the beggars are walking away, while the home owners are looking through the window, they can see the beggars throwing the food away.

As for other kinds of beggars…
I never give anyone a lift. EVER. It’s just plain dangerous. You stop for a woman and her baby and next thing you know people are jumping out of bushes jacking your car. True story, and many more where that came from.

If there’s a beggar in front of a super market or a fast food place I’ll buy something from them to eat. They always take the food when they’re there.
I hardly ever see buskers, when I do I don’t mind giving.

As for people who are, very obviously, drinkers. Most of the time I give them money too (when I don’t have food with me or there’s no shop nearby). Once the money leaves my hand it’s theirs to do with it as they please. Wine and beer have calories too… And what if they actually did want to buy food? I live in a town outside of Cape Town, and even though I see homeless kids here too, in the city there’s obviously a lot more, but I see many of them walking around with empty chips packets inhaling glue fumes. I give them money sometimes, sometimes I don’t, but then what if they really want something to eat? And then some of the kids are ordered by their parents to give them the money, so the parents can buy glue or alcohol or whatever. Beggars who look like meth addicts only ever get food from me though.

Then you get the traffic light beggars. Again, usually I’ll give. Some people don’t give to beggars who look too well-dressed, but what happens if I lose my job and have to go begging on the streets? My clothes will be clean (in the beginning), I have all my teeth and my hair is professionally dyed and cut… :/

I always try to have coins and ten rand notes with me, because we have ‘car guards’ here, so I usually have something to give and then I also keep some coins in the car’s ashtray. I know some people think I’m a sucker and I give too freely (when it’s comes to tips and car guards too), but I have so much. I’m not rich or anything, but compared to some of these people I might as well be the bloody Queen of England. And really, if I give away a few Rand a day it’s not going to bankrupt me. I might have to eat out less or something, poor poor me. I’ll probably eat out anyway and just put it on my credit card and pay it off next month. Such a hard life I have.

Many years ago, when I was a first year in university, or there abouts, I went into a shop…I got three fashion magazines, sweets, and ice-cream for me and my brother. It cost me a lot of money. But there I was standing in the queue to pay, with a couple, who were obviously poor, standing in front of me unpacking their basket: small packet of coffee, small packet of flour, some rice, 1 litre of milk, you get the picture. I felt awful. I was spending twice the amount they were and I was buying crap, essentially, with pocket money!

I used to work at a co-op/hardware store for extra pocket money while I was studying. People would come in, sweat dripping off them, because they had to walk kilometres on a hot summer’s day (sometimes really old people) to get their gas canisters filled. Then when they have to pay and I say, “R39.50 please” and I can see their faces fall, because they only brought R37 because they didn’t know the price of the gas went up. Some of them looked like I had just informed them of a death in the family. I always paid the extra. How can I send them home when I got paid R120 for half of Saturday, for pressing a few buttons?

I drive by people going through trash cans every day. In fact, when I sit in my lounge and I look out my sliding doors, past my teeny gravel garden onto the park behind my place, I will see a few homeless or poor people walk by during the day and go through the trash can that’s there. It’s winter here now. Most mornings I see homeless people walking around with soaked through clothes and blankets, or sitting in parks with their clothes laid out on the grass in the cold morning sun hoping for them to dry. When I lie in my bed at night and the rain is coming down hard and I imagine them having to curl up in a doorway on the street somewhere... When it’s snowing and I get dressed in front of my fan heater…

When I see things like that all the time (or think about it) how can I not give when I have something to give?


Well beggers too can strive for a balanced diet. Simply solved my standing outside different kinds of restaurants, bars, and bistros.

I normally opt to stand outside the Ritz Carlton beach bar - they make a killer dirty martini and excellent lumpfish caviar on Waters Biscuits.

Good idea for that end-of-the-month cash shortage. ;)



*I say home, but I mean my parents’ house, not really mine. I live in a closed complex.

PS: Sorry for the big post.

[Paulclem]

The situation is very different in Europe. There are fewer beggars here, but they are not in the same situation as the ones you describe. They are most often, but not exclusively, men, and many clearly have drug and alcohol problems, and/or mental health problems too. There are agencies to help them which it sounds as though there aren't in your country - ours will be entitled to benefits of some kind.

[TurquoiseSunset]

The situation is very different in Europe. There are fewer beggars here, but they are not in the same situation as the ones you describe. They are most often, but not exclusively, men, and many clearly have drug and alcohol problems, and/or mental health problems too. There are agencies to help them which it sounds as though there aren't in your country - ours will be entitled to benefits of some kind.

Yip, I got that from the other posts, but that's also why I decided to make such a long post about what it's like in my country. It's so different.

Honestly, I don't know if there are any agencies like that in South Africa, but if there are, my not knowing of them just shows that it's not a prevalent thing.

It's a sad situation, the amount of poor people we have. That's why I feel South Africans who have are obligated to give or do what they can. We might have a lot of people living below the bread line, but we also have a decent amount of people who are financially able to help, if only a little.

It would also help if our government managed itself and the country's financial matters better, but I'd rather not go into politics ;)

[Paulclem]

Yip, I got that from the other posts, but that's also why I decided to make such a long post about what it's like in my country. It's so different.

Honestly, I don't know if there are any agencies like that in South Africa, but if there are, my not knowing of them just shows that it's not a prevalent thing.

It's a sad situation, the amount of poor people we have. That's why I feel South Africans who have are obligated to give or do what they can. We might have a lot of people living below the bread line, but we also have a decent amount of people who are financially able to help, if only a little.

It would also help if our government managed itself and the country's financial matters better, but I'd rather not go into politics ;)

Yes - we're lucky with the welfare state.

[Paulclem]

I was thinking this morning, as I walked through town, about this discussion. I wondered can you disassociate your giving to beggars from the consequences of their misuse of the money? I don't mean it as a criticism, but wondered whether the act of giving is tainted if it is used for drugs or alcohol. Also, is ignorence a defence? I think the use if money may be something we don't as citizens think about enough. For exanple if giving is tainted, even in ignorence about its use, what about the use of money with unethical companies such as Nestle who exploit child labour?

[Scheherazade]

I was thinking this morning, as I walked through town, about this discussion. I wondered can you disassociate your giving to beggars from the consequences of their misuse of the money? I don't mean it as a criticism, but wondered whether the act of giving is tainted if it is used for drugs or alcohol. Also, is ignorence a defence? I think the use if money may be something we don't as citizens think about enough. For exanple if giving is tainted, even in ignorence about its use, what about the use of money with unethical companies such as Nestle who exploit child labour?This makes me wonder if charity is charitable when it is conditional. Do the conditions attached make it less worthy or more effective?

[Shalot]

I am tired of the beggers. In the past few months, I've been approached more times than I have in the past few years. It's getting worse. The first couple of times, it didn't really bother me, but the woman who approached me with a piece of paper in her hand and asked if I was local before she asked me for money really pissed me off.

She had a backpack on, and was carrying a piece of paper and she held it up when she asked, "Are you from around here?"

My first thought was that she was lost and was looking for a specific place, and that the piece of paper she had in hand was a set of directions or something that she needed help with. So I was prepared to tell her whether or not I knew how to get where she was trying to go. But then she started to speak again, and she told me she had some kind of tumor in her head, and she suffered from seizures, and that she was 2 months pregnant, and then there were a few other ailments that she listed but by then I was ready to keep moving. If she had just stopped after tumor and seizures, I may have reached into my pocket for a wadded up dollar bill that I had. But she went on with her litany of ailments, and I decided she wasn't getting anything from me.

When she sensed that I was losing interest, she showed me the piece of paper which was an email print out listing some medications. Her story was that she went to the hospital where she was given the prescriptions and that she had then gone to Walgreens to get the prescription filled, and that Walgreens declined her card, and would not give her the needed medicine. So she needed me to give her money for her medicine. As she told her tale, I noticed her missing teeth, and the huge stain on the men's undershirt she was wearing and how she seemed so full of ****e. I told her I wasn't carrying cash and she promptly told me that there was an ATM around the corner, and we could go over together and I could get the $20 she needed. I said, "No I can't." and then she got real huffy, and said "Please???!!!" and I said no, and walked away, and she made some noise at me like I was being unreasonable.

Maybe she really did have all those issues, I don't know, but it didn't seem like it. Other beggers were happy with anything I could spare, but she wanted $20.00. That's a bit much. Why didn't she take that attitude with the hospital personnel who sent her on her way with a prescription she had no means of filling? Do they not advise about charity services? When I went to the dentist, the first thing they asked me before they did a thing was how was I going to pay for the parts that insurance didn't cover. They had a detailed breakdown of the charges for the services that I needed that they hadn't yet provided. So, is our hospital system that lousy that they would send her on her way without making sure that she could procure the needed medicine? I guess it must be. Or she's a liar. Or both A and B are correct.

A few days later I was walking downtown on my lunch break and I was approached by someone from Greenpeace who wanted donations and I would have been happy to do that, but they wanted my credit card number, right there down on the street. I called Greenpeace, and told them that I was approached by someone with a donation request, and she told me that yes, they had representatives canvasing the area, and she told me which city they were from, and it matched what the Greenpeace rep had told me, so it wasn't a hustle. But still, it irritated me just the same.

It's one thing to ask for spare change, or a dollar or something, but when they walk up to you on the street and want your credit card it changes things. I pull out the credit card on MY terms...

There are also homeless people who stand outside of where I work holding newspapers which cost $1. The newspapers are special publications related to homelessness. There is one man who always stations himself on a bench, and he will say "Have a Nice Day" to whoever walks past. I will buy his paper sometimes. There are a lot of homeless people selling newspapers. If it was just one or two people standing around outside, I would probably buy their papers regularly, but there are too many clustered in one area, and now when I see them I am uncomfortable. I'm sure they are not comfortable either though. There are some who just stand there and hold the papers up and I'm not really inclined to buy their papers. If I was homeless, that's probably what I would do. I wouldn't speak and therefore wouldn't sell any papers.

[Shalot]

Seriously, someone post here. If nothing else, just say that yes, beggars are asking a bit much when they ask you to go to the ATM to withdraw money from your account to fund their sob story. Seriously.

[Volya]

Yes, beggars are asking a bit much when they ask you to go to the ATM to withdraw money from your account to fund their sob story.

[Sancho]

Seriously, someone post here. If nothing else, just say that yes, beggars are asking a bit much when they ask you to go to the ATM to withdraw money from your account to fund their sob story. Seriously.

Oh yeah, that's way over the top behavior. Giving someone some pocket change and letting somebody follow you to a cash machine are in whole other categories. Warning flags ought to be going up all over the place if you've lost your free will and are starting to feel obligated. But then that's how begging works, isn't it? That's their shtick. Bonafide charities do it too.

Seems to me, beggars are good at bringing you in quickly. They have to. They only have a few seconds to make their case while you're walking by on the street, or sitting at a stoplight, or standing on the sidewalk looking at all the cool stuff in the window. They're also good at picking out their mark: out-of-towners, charity-minded folks, young guys who don't want to look like a schmuck in front of their girl. Anyway, opening lines are almost always designed to draw you out and let them in:

"Hey, where you from?"
Big smile, "Oh, I'm from a little town near Kenosha, Wisconsin. Where're you from, friend?"
- You might as well break out you're checkbook. Better, just cut to the chase:
"Sorry, man, I'm broke." and keep on walking.

"Hey, can I ask you question?"
"Why sure. Ask away. You got questions, I got answers."
-You might as well just give her your pin number. Better:
"You just did. What's your next question?" (now she's playing you're game)

"Hey, can you do me a favor?"
"Of course, Jesus always said..."
-You've probably got yourself a new roommate at this point. Better:
"Well now, that all depends on what it is that you want." (Sets you up to easily say, "Sorry. No can do, Todd."

Anyway, they're good at catching you off guard. Practice makes perfect. Just go out and have some fun - but try not to get yourself knifed.

[Jack of Hearts]

Why bother re-iterating what Emerson already articulated perfectly?

"There is a class of persons to whom by all spiritual affinity I am bought and sold; for them I will go to prison, if need be; but your miscellaneous popular charities; the education at college of fools; the building of meeting-houses to the vain end to which many now stand; alms to sots; and the thousandfold Relief Societies; — though I confess with shame I sometimes succumb and give the dollar, it is a wicked dollar which by and by I shall have the manhood to withhold."









J

[qimissung]

I have to disagree with Emerson, and say that I am more in agreement with TurquoiseSunset.

I found these statistics:


http://www.endhomelessness.org/pages/snapshot_of_homelessness

(yes, it is a charitable organization, but don't feel obligated to give :))

Homelessness and poverty are on the rise in the United States. I think each individual person will have to decide for themselves if they want to give money to the individual beggar in front of them. I think all of us are savvy enough at this point to know that there is a probability that the person, be it adult or child, who is asking is scamming us to a degree. Could it be said, Sancho, that that child was not in dire need? Even if she's working for the man? What kind of a life is that? I would hardly have begrudged her an ice cream cone for her trouble, even while recognizing that she probably gets a meal from somewhere. That's probably all she gets. What about a home, parents who can keep her off the streets, an education, a future? I think it's unlikely she has those or even the chance of any of them.

That's one thing I cordially dislike about the United States, this attitude toward the poor. That they are poor because they are lazy. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have worked in an inner city school for many years. The reasons for poverty and the failure of schools to help their students climb out of said poverty are complex and not easily understood, not least by those running these schools and districts. It was painful to watch them do all the wrong things and blame all the wrong people.

Perhaps we could deepen the discussion by questioning the root causes of poverty in these various societies and what could be done to end it or at least lessen its effects.

The thing is, giving a dollar to a beggar says more about the character of the person who is giving it than it does to alleviate the problem of poverty. Even helping out at a soup kitchen doesn't really do anything to solve the problem. Each situation is going to be different and will possibly call for a different response. You are correct, Shalot, to be cautious about giving out your credit card number. I can think of no occasion when I would do that.

So give a dollar, or don't-if you choose to do so, you will have stopped for only the briefest moment any pain or hunger that person is feeling. It will not stop the cold, it will not stop the gnawing desire for a drug or a drink or the pain of a rotting tooth or frostbitten toes.

But if you want to give, it might make both of you feel better about the human condition, if only for a moment.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I am tired of the beggers. In the past few months, I've been approached more times than I have in the past few years. It's getting worse. The first couple of times, it didn't really bother me, but the woman who approached me with a piece of paper in her hand and asked if I was local before she asked me for money really pissed me off.

She had a backpack on, and was carrying a piece of paper and she held it up when she asked, "Are you from around here?"

My first thought was that she was lost and was looking for a specific place, and that the piece of paper she had in hand was a set of directions or something that she needed help with. So I was prepared to tell her whether or not I knew how to get where she was trying to go. But then she started to speak again, and she told me she had some kind of tumor in her head, and she suffered from seizures, and that she was 2 months pregnant, and then there were a few other ailments that she listed but by then I was ready to keep moving. If she had just stopped after tumor and seizures, I may have reached into my pocket for a wadded up dollar bill that I had. But she went on with her litany of ailments, and I decided she wasn't getting anything from me.

When she sensed that I was losing interest, she showed me the piece of paper which was an email print out listing some medications. Her story was that she went to the hospital where she was given the prescriptions and that she had then gone to Walgreens to get the prescription filled, and that Walgreens declined her card, and would not give her the needed medicine. So she needed me to give her money for her medicine. As she told her tale, I noticed her missing teeth, and the huge stain on the men's undershirt she was wearing and how she seemed so full of ****e. I told her I wasn't carrying cash and she promptly told me that there was an ATM around the corner, and we could go over together and I could get the $20 she needed. I said, "No I can't." and then she got real huffy, and said "Please???!!!" and I said no, and walked away, and she made some noise at me like I was being unreasonable.

Maybe she really did have all those issues, I don't know, but it didn't seem like it. Other beggers were happy with anything I could spare, but she wanted $20.00. That's a bit much. Why didn't she take that attitude with the hospital personnel who sent her on her way with a prescription she had no means of filling? Do they not advise about charity services? When I went to the dentist, the first thing they asked me before they did a thing was how was I going to pay for the parts that insurance didn't cover. They had a detailed breakdown of the charges for the services that I needed that they hadn't yet provided. So, is our hospital system that lousy that they would send her on her way without making sure that she could procure the needed medicine? I guess it must be. Or she's a liar. Or both A and B are correct.

A few days later I was walking downtown on my lunch break and I was approached by someone from Greenpeace who wanted donations and I would have been happy to do that, but they wanted my credit card number, right there down on the street. I called Greenpeace, and told them that I was approached by someone with a donation request, and she told me that yes, they had representatives canvasing the area, and she told me which city they were from, and it matched what the Greenpeace rep had told me, so it wasn't a hustle. But still, it irritated me just the same.

It's one thing to ask for spare change, or a dollar or something, but when they walk up to you on the street and want your credit card it changes things. I pull out the credit card on MY terms...

There are also homeless people who stand outside of where I work holding newspapers which cost $1. The newspapers are special publications related to homelessness. There is one man who always stations himself on a bench, and he will say "Have a Nice Day" to whoever walks past. I will buy his paper sometimes. There are a lot of homeless people selling newspapers. If it was just one or two people standing around outside, I would probably buy their papers regularly, but there are too many clustered in one area, and now when I see them I am uncomfortable. I'm sure they are not comfortable either though. There are some who just stand there and hold the papers up and I'm not really inclined to buy their papers. If I was homeless, that's probably what I would do. I wouldn't speak and therefore wouldn't sell any papers.


Seriously, someone post here. If nothing else, just say that yes, beggars are asking a bit much when they ask you to go to the ATM to withdraw money from your account to fund their sob story. Seriously.
:nopity:


Yes, beggars are asking a bit much when they ask you to go to the ATM to withdraw money from your account to fund their sob story.

:lol:

[Shevek]

...The thing is, giving a dollar to a beggar says more about the character of the person who is giving it than it does to alleviate the problem of poverty. Even helping out at a soup kitchen doesn't really do anything to solve the problem. Each situation is going to be different and will possibly call for a different response. You are correct, Shalot, to be cautious about giving out your credit card number. I can think of no occasion when I would do that...


I do think charities and voluntary organizations are underestimated, though. I've personally witnessed the substantial material aid, as well as counselling, that charities give to homeless people in my city who otherwise would have been long dead or, at least, much worse off. Charities nowadays don't simply give temporary handouts but help with overcoming addictions, finding jobs, providing a (relatively) safe place to stay and of course serving meals. Clearly charities aren't the solution to homelessness and poverty, but they are a lot more proactive than the state in providing concrete aid. I recognize many charities receive quite a bit of their funding from municipalities, but this is often scarce and from what I understand most organizations rely on donations. They also run on volunteer service -- administrators, while employees, get extraordinarily meagre salaries -- so "helping out" actually helps.

That said, I agree with your broader point that perceptions of poverty as individual moral failures do nothing to devise and carry out concrete solutions. What I find troubling is not just these perceptions, which are rampant in Canada as well, but the supererogatory attitude taken towards solving these issues. Peter Singer said in a famous essay, which I wholly agree with, that any society serious about tackling poverty cannot approach it as an option -- it requires a collective obligation. So I'll stress, once again, that charities aren't the solution given their private nature, although they are doing observable good.