The Concept of Geisha

[cacian]

Cultural or Immoral?

I still to this day find it difficult to comprehend the concept of a Geisha.
Is it right for anyone men or women to be made a sexual convenience and have assets education and intellect?
Is this a modern take on prostitution or abuse with the full concent of parents.

[stlukesguild]

Have you actually taken the time to read up on Geisha and find out just what a Geisha is and does? There is plenty of basic information available of Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geisha

I suspect you have some rather biased views of Geisha that have little to do with reality.

[cacian]

Have you actually taken the time to read up on Geisha and find out just what a Geisha is and does? There is plenty of basic information available of Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geisha

I suspect you have some rather biased views of Geisha that have little to do with reality.

That is an unfair statement. I know more about Geisha then you think.
Geisha and basic information are two very different things.
There is nothing basic about what the geisha does or it would not be.
Biased is not the word either.
I have read and seen many documents regarding the Geisha and there are more gruesome things about what goes behind geishas' closed doors neither google or anyone would ever tell you.
So going back to the original post my question still stand as it is.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

If you know so much about geishas, maybe you'd like to educate us?

[Alexander III]

There are many misconceptions over what a geisha truly is because of the tumultuous past of artisans, prostitutes, and pleasure quarters in Japan. “The world of the geisha, the "flower and willow" world, are very separate societies that are shrouded in mystery. The myths that have been created by outsiders about the environment and the lifestyle of the geisha world have, for the most part, been able to grow unchecked. And because it is a very private, elite world, most people would be uncomfortable speaking about it”.

Prostitution was legal in Japan until 1958, which is another reason that people may be misinformed about geishas not offering sex to customers. The two became especially confused after many of the professional prostitutes who catered to the occupying soldiers after World War II styled themselves as "geisha"; at a time when few true geisha were able to work, the counterfeit geisha usurped the meaning of the word in the eyes of many foreigners.



^^^

That is not me, I just copy pasted that off of wikipedia as It seemed like an appropriate passage for the OP to read.

[cacian]

If you know so much about geishas, maybe you'd like to educate us?

Haha I could do but I think I will wait a bit longer to see what others have to say first.
One thing however I must want to add is that there is a link between monks and Geishas.
I will leave it at that.

[stlukesguild]

Geisha... are traditional Japanese female entertainers who act as hostesses and whose skills include performing various Japanese arts such as classical music, dance and games.

The most literal translation of geisha into English would be "artist," "performing artist," or "artisan."

In the early stages of Japanese history, there were female entertainers: saburuko (serving girls) were mostly wandering girls whose families were displaced from struggles in the late 600s. Some of these saburuko girls sold sexual services, while others with a better education made a living by entertaining at high-class social gatherings. After the imperial court moved the capital to Heian-kyō (Kyoto) in 794 the conditions that would form Japanese Geisha culture began to emerge, as it became the home of a beauty-obsessed elite. Skilled female performers, such as Shirabyōshi dancers, thrived.

Traditional Japan embraced sexual delights (it is not a Shinto taboo) and men were not constrained to be faithful to their wives... For sexual enjoyment and romantic attachment, men did not go to their wives, but to courtesans. Walled-in pleasure quarters known as yūkaku (遊廓、遊郭?) were built in the 16th century, and in 1617 the shogunate designated "pleasure quarters", outside of which prostitution would be illegal, and within which "yūjo" ("play women") would be classified and licensed. The highest yūjo class was the Geisha's predecessor, called "Oiran", a combination of actress and prostitute, originally playing on stages set in the dry Kamo riverbed in Kyoto. They performed erotic dances and skits, and this new art was dubbed kabuku, meaning "to be wild and outrageous". The dances were called "kabuki," and this was the beginning of kabuki theater.

These pleasure quarters quickly became glamorous entertainment centers, offering more than sex. The highly accomplished courtesans of these districts entertained their clients by dancing, singing, and playing music. Some were renowned poets and calligraphers. Gradually, they all became specialized and the new profession, purely of entertainment, arose. It was near the turn of the eighteenth century that the first entertainers of the pleasure quarters, called geisha, appeared.

The geisha who worked within the pleasure quarters were essentially imprisoned and strictly forbidden to sell sex in order to protect the business of the Oiran.

World War II brought a huge decline in the geisha arts because most women had to go to factories or other places to work for Japan. The geisha name also lost some status during this time because prostitutes began referring to themselves as "geisha girls" to American military men. In 1944, everything in the geisha's world, including teahouses, bars, and houses, was forced to shut down, and all employees were put to work in factories. About a year later, they were allowed to reopen. The very few women who returned to the geisha areas decided to reject Western influence and revert back to traditional ways of entertainment and life.

The term geisha literally translates to mean "entertainer". Some prostitutes refer to themselves as "geisha", but they are not. A geisha's sex and love life is usually distinct from her professional life. A successful geisha can entrance her male customers with music, dance, and conversation. "Geishas are not submissive and subservient, but in fact they are some of the most financially and emotionally successful and strongest women in Japan, and traditionally have been so.

The appeal of a high-ranking geisha to her typical male guest has historically been very different from that of his wife. The ideal geisha showed her skill, while the ideal wife was modest. The ideal geisha seemed carefree, the ideal wife somber and responsible. Geisha do sometimes marry their clients but they must then retire; there can never be a married geisha. Geisha may gracefully flirt with their (often infatuated) guests, but they will always remain in control of the hospitality.

Women in the geisha society are some of the most successful businesswomen in Japan. In the geisha society, women run everything. Without the impeccable business skills of the female teahouse owners, the world of geisha would cease to exist. The teahouse owners are entrepreneurs, whose service to the geisha is highly necessary for the society to run smoothly. Infrequently, men take contingent positions such as hair stylists, dressers (dressing a maiko requires considerable strength) and accountants,[18] but men have a limited role in geisha society.

There are many misconceptions over what a geisha truly is because of the tumultuous past of artisans, prostitutes, and pleasure quarters in Japan. “The world of the geisha, the "flower and willow" world, are very separate societies that are shrouded in mystery. The myths that have been created by outsiders about the environment and the lifestyle of the geisha world have, for the most part, been able to grow unchecked. And because it is a very private, elite world, most people would be uncomfortable speaking about it”.

Prostitution was legal in Japan until 1958, which is another reason that people may be misinformed about geishas not offering sex to customers.[18] The two became especially confused after many of the professional prostitutes who catered to the occupying soldiers after World War II styled themselves as "geisha"; at a time when few true geisha were able to work, the counterfeit geisha usurped the meaning of the word in the eyes of many foreigners.

Before the twentieth century, geisha training began when a girl was around the age of four. Now, girls usually go to school until they are teenagers and then make the personal decision to train to become a geisha. Young women who wish to become geisha now most often begin their training after completing middle school, high school, or even college. Many women begin their careers in adulthood.

There remains some confusion about the nature of the geisha profession. At various times and places, many non-Japanese have understood geisha to be prostitutes,[72] and, in fact, some officials in 19th century Japan are recorded as having similar confusion, as discussed below. However, legitimate geisha do not engage in paid sex with clients. Their purpose is to entertain their customer, be it by dancing, reciting verse, playing musical instruments, or engaging in light conversation. Geisha engagements may include flirting with men and playful innuendos; however, clients know that nothing more can be expected. In a social style that is common in Japan, men are amused by the illusion of that which is never to be.

"Geisha girls" were Japanese women who worked as prostitutes during the period of the Allied Occupation of Japan. They almost exclusively serviced American GIs stationed in the country, who referred to them as "Geesha girls".

These women dressed in kimono and imitated the look of geisha. Americans unfamiliar with the Japanese culture could not tell the difference between legitimate geisha and these costumed prostitutes.Shortly after their arrival in 1945, occupying American GIs are said to have congregated on the Ginza and shouted in unison, "We want geesha girls!"

Eventually, the term "geisha girl" became a general word for any female Japanese prostitute or worker in the mizu shobai and included bar hostesses and streetwalkers.
Geisha girls are speculated by researchers to be largely responsible for the continuing misconception in the West that all geisha are engaged in prostitution.

from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geisha

Now let's hear your take on Geisha. Hopefully it has more behind it than the sort of "reckoning" behind your take on Julia... I mean Julius Caesar.:D

[Emil Miller]

i love this part, it makes Rosie the riveter look like the girl who does the dishes.

"Geishas are not submissive and subservient, but in fact they are some of the most financially and emotionally successful and strongest women in Japan, and traditionally have been so.

[cacian]

i love this part, it makes Rosie the riveter look like the girl who does the dishes.

"Geishas are not submissive and subservient, but in fact they are some of the most financially and emotionally successful and strongest women in Japan, and traditionally have been so.

Hi Emil where did you get this quote from?

[Emil Miller]

Hi Emil where did you get this quote from?

I took it from stlukes post above.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

:lol:

I'm still waiting for cacian's enlightened views b geishas.

[cacian]

:lol:

I'm still waiting for cacian's enlightened views b geishas.

Hi Mutatis I have already dropped a hint just before Stlukes posted his impeccable article.
I need not to expend after that.

[cacian]

Geisha... are traditional Japanese female entertainers who act as hostesses and whose skills include performing various Japanese arts such as classical music, dance and games.

The most literal translation of geisha into English would be "artist," "performing artist," or "artisan."

In the early stages of Japanese history, there were female entertainers: saburuko (serving girls) were mostly wandering girls whose families were displaced from struggles in the late 600s. Some of these saburuko girls sold sexual services, while others with a better education made a living by entertaining at high-class social gatherings. After the imperial court moved the capital to Heian-kyō (Kyoto) in 794 the conditions that would form Japanese Geisha culture began to emerge, as it became the home of a beauty-obsessed elite. Skilled female performers, such as Shirabyōshi dancers, thrived.

Traditional Japan embraced sexual delights (it is not a Shinto taboo) and men were not constrained to be faithful to their wives... For sexual enjoyment and romantic attachment, men did not go to their wives, but to courtesans. Walled-in pleasure quarters known as yūkaku (遊廓、遊郭?) were built in the 16th century, and in 1617 the shogunate designated "pleasure quarters", outside of which prostitution would be illegal, and within which "yūjo" ("play women") would be classified and licensed. The highest yūjo class was the Geisha's predecessor, called "Oiran", a combination of actress and prostitute, originally playing on stages set in the dry Kamo riverbed in Kyoto. They performed erotic dances and skits, and this new art was dubbed kabuku, meaning "to be wild and outrageous". The dances were called "kabuki," and this was the beginning of kabuki theater.

These pleasure quarters quickly became glamorous entertainment centers, offering more than sex. The highly accomplished courtesans of these districts entertained their clients by dancing, singing, and playing music. Some were renowned poets and calligraphers. Gradually, they all became specialized and the new profession, purely of entertainment, arose. It was near the turn of the eighteenth century that the first entertainers of the pleasure quarters, called geisha, appeared.

The geisha who worked within the pleasure quarters were essentially imprisoned and strictly forbidden to sell sex in order to protect the business of the Oiran.

World War II brought a huge decline in the geisha arts because most women had to go to factories or other places to work for Japan. The geisha name also lost some status during this time because prostitutes began referring to themselves as "geisha girls" to American military men. In 1944, everything in the geisha's world, including teahouses, bars, and houses, was forced to shut down, and all employees were put to work in factories. About a year later, they were allowed to reopen. The very few women who returned to the geisha areas decided to reject Western influence and revert back to traditional ways of entertainment and life.

The term geisha literally translates to mean "entertainer". Some prostitutes refer to themselves as "geisha", but they are not. A geisha's sex and love life is usually distinct from her professional life. A successful geisha can entrance her male customers with music, dance, and conversation. "Geishas are not submissive and subservient, but in fact they are some of the most financially and emotionally successful and strongest women in Japan, and traditionally have been so.

The appeal of a high-ranking geisha to her typical male guest has historically been very different from that of his wife. The ideal geisha showed her skill, while the ideal wife was modest. The ideal geisha seemed carefree, the ideal wife somber and responsible. Geisha do sometimes marry their clients but they must then retire; there can never be a married geisha. Geisha may gracefully flirt with their (often infatuated) guests, but they will always remain in control of the hospitality.

Women in the geisha society are some of the most successful businesswomen in Japan. In the geisha society, women run everything. Without the impeccable business skills of the female teahouse owners, the world of geisha would cease to exist. The teahouse owners are entrepreneurs, whose service to the geisha is highly necessary for the society to run smoothly. Infrequently, men take contingent positions such as hair stylists, dressers (dressing a maiko requires considerable strength) and accountants,[18] but men have a limited role in geisha society.

There are many misconceptions over what a geisha truly is because of the tumultuous past of artisans, prostitutes, and pleasure quarters in Japan. “The world of the geisha, the "flower and willow" world, are very separate societies that are shrouded in mystery. The myths that have been created by outsiders about the environment and the lifestyle of the geisha world have, for the most part, been able to grow unchecked. And because it is a very private, elite world, most people would be uncomfortable speaking about it”.

Prostitution was legal in Japan until 1958, which is another reason that people may be misinformed about geishas not offering sex to customers.[18] The two became especially confused after many of the professional prostitutes who catered to the occupying soldiers after World War II styled themselves as "geisha"; at a time when few true geisha were able to work, the counterfeit geisha usurped the meaning of the word in the eyes of many foreigners.

Before the twentieth century, geisha training began when a girl was around the age of four. Now, girls usually go to school until they are teenagers and then make the personal decision to train to become a geisha. Young women who wish to become geisha now most often begin their training after completing middle school, high school, or even college. Many women begin their careers in adulthood.

There remains some confusion about the nature of the geisha profession. At various times and places, many non-Japanese have understood geisha to be prostitutes,[72] and, in fact, some officials in 19th century Japan are recorded as having similar confusion, as discussed below. However, legitimate geisha do not engage in paid sex with clients. Their purpose is to entertain their customer, be it by dancing, reciting verse, playing musical instruments, or engaging in light conversation. Geisha engagements may include flirting with men and playful innuendos; however, clients know that nothing more can be expected. In a social style that is common in Japan, men are amused by the illusion of that which is never to be.

"Geisha girls" were Japanese women who worked as prostitutes during the period of the Allied Occupation of Japan. They almost exclusively serviced American GIs stationed in the country, who referred to them as "Geesha girls".

These women dressed in kimono and imitated the look of geisha. Americans unfamiliar with the Japanese culture could not tell the difference between legitimate geisha and these costumed prostitutes.Shortly after their arrival in 1945, occupying American GIs are said to have congregated on the Ginza and shouted in unison, "We want geesha girls!"

Eventually, the term "geisha girl" became a general word for any female Japanese prostitute or worker in the mizu shobai and included bar hostesses and streetwalkers.
Geisha girls are speculated by researchers to be largely responsible for the continuing misconception in the West that all geisha are engaged in prostitution.

from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geisha

Now let's hear your take on Geisha. Hopefully it has more behind it than the sort of "reckoning" behind your take on Julia... I mean Julius Caesar.:D

Hi Stlukes is there anything in that draft you do not believe or do you think it is all correct?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Hi Mutatis I have already dropped a hint just before Stlukes posted his impeccable article.
I need not to expend after that.
You said this:

Haha I could do but I think I will wait a bit longer to see what others have to say first.
One thing however I must want to add is that there is a link between monks and Geishas.
I will leave it at that.
I'm curious as to what the link between monks ns geishas is. You started this thread. Don't you think you should answer queries on it? Especially when you have such strong opinions, shouldn't at least try to justify them?

[cacian]

You said this:

I'm curious as to what the link between monks ns geishas is. You started this thread. Don't you think you should answer queries on it? Especially when you have such strong opinions, shouldn't at least try to justify them?

What do you think could be the link between a monk and the concept of a geisha?
Religious noteriety demands obedience and sacrifice because of the priviliged religious few.
The reason a geisha is is because a monk lifestyle comes at a price.
So as a token of its religious notoriety it delivers from the heart and is a sacrifice of some sort and in this case it is a young trained non adulterous pure well spoken eduacted woman solely for the pleasure of a religious nutter.
Let's call it a priviledged sacrifice.
I am surprised you have not put two and two together Mutatis.
What say you?

[stlukesguild]

What do you think could be the link between a monk and the concept of a geisha?
Religious noteriety demands obedience and sacrifice because of the priviliged religious few.
The reason a geisha is is because a monk lifestyle comes at a price.
So as a token of its religious notoriety it delivers from the heart and is a sacrifice of some sort and in this case it is a young trained non adulterous pure well spoken eduacted woman solely for the pleasure of a religious nutter.
Let's call it a priviledged sacrifice.
I am surprised you have not put two and two together Mutatis.

It's not an issue of putting two and two together. Rather... as in our discussion on Caesar... the issue is the veracity of the sources of your information. Now if you have some legitimate source from where you are getting your information concerning the Geisha, we are all ears.

[cacian]

What do you think could be the link between a monk and the concept of a geisha?
Religious noteriety demands obedience and sacrifice because of the priviliged religious few.
The reason a geisha is is because a monk lifestyle comes at a price.
So as a token of its religious notoriety it delivers from the heart and is a sacrifice of some sort and in this case it is a young trained non adulterous pure well spoken eduacted woman solely for the pleasure of a religious nutter.
Let's call it a priviledged sacrifice.
I am surprised you have not put two and two together Mutatis.

It's not an issue of putting two and two together. Rather... as in our discussion on Caesar... the issue is the veracity of the sources of your information. Now if you have some legitimate source from where you are getting your information concerning the Geisha, we are all ears.

Well I get what I get from very reliable sources and so I naturally thought I would share them with you as token of my membership here.
There is nothing to it.
I personally think that what I have said about Juluis and Nero are perfectly legitimate possibilities.
One must keep an open mind on things that might come up new and different regarding history.
History is not all black and white or a rigid script that one must adhere to without questioning that is not what history is about.
I might well wish to add that perhaps the death of Jesus was not because of a roman treason but because he had long hair and felt more feminine that got the worse out of his real enemies. I guess saying who might really have been responsible for Jesus's death is not the issue here.
That is not to say that neither all these three very important figures were gay or homosexual but that they felt their feminity was predominent and important.
I have passed on what I know with the best possible knowledge that I feel must be shared amongst here.
I cannot add anymore to it other then you can make or demake what I said and leave it at that.
If you feel that it is not enough grounds to believe it then so be it I however have done what I had to do and that is to pass on what I have been told and know.
And so about the geisha and monks it is as good as it gets.

[Delta40]

Nobody knows if Jesus looked or behaved feminine. Personally I like to think he resembled one of the Tuttles from American Chopper but that's irrelevant...


Now you're playing Chinese Whispers. Somebody told you something about Geishas and you believed them and formed your own impression of what you've been told, made a new truth and now you're passing it on to the next person as gospel and you expect us to be content with that? I don't think so.

[cacian]

Nobody knows if Jesus looked or behaved feminine. Personally I like to think he resembled one of the Tuttles from American Chopper but that's irrelevant...

Haha fair enough but are you saying that Jesus portrayed on the cross is not Jesus or that he does not look anything like him with long hair and that?
The reason I asked is because when I first saw the picture of Jesus I wondered why the long hair and the semi naked body.
It made me think you see.


Now you're playing Chinese Whispers. Somebody told you something about Geishas and you believed them and formed your own impression of what you've been told, made a new truth and now you're passing it on to the next person as gospel and you expect us to be content with that? I don't think so.

Abslutely not Delta take what I said about the geisha as you wish or with a pinch of salt.
I got the knowledge first hand and direct and it is in no away a joke.
I would not post it here if I did not think it was true.
Oh and I did like your usage of gospel word there very funny in a nice way!:p

[stlukesguild]

Haha fair enough but are you saying that Jesus portrayed on the cross is not Jesus or that he does not look anything like him with long hair and that? The reason I asked is because when I first saw the picture of Jesus I wondered why the long hair and the semi naked body.

Of course the figures portrayed on the cross in paintings are not Jesus. You are talking about imagery developed hundreds... even more than a thousand years after the reported historical facts. A great majority of the iconography associated with the traditional imagery of the crucifixion was developed during the Renaissance.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Masaccio-Crucifixion.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Masaccio-Crucifixion.jpg)

-Masaccio

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Angelico-CrucifixionSM-1438.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Angelico-CrucifixionSM-1438.jpg)

-Fra Angelico

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_1205226660_1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=1205226660_1.jpg)

-Giotto

The Renaissance artists, and the theologians who advised them on terms of iconography, were not well versed in historical veracity. You'll note in both the Fran Angelico and the Gotto painting that the crowd at the Crucifixion includes Franciscan monks... in spite of the fact that the Franciscan Order did not exist until the 13th century. In the Giotto painting, on the right just above the monks there is a better dressed young man with a hat turned away from the cross with his hand to his side (on his sword handle). He is intended to be a Roman soldier... yet he wears his hair long and dresses more in the manner of a Renaissance-era soldier or aristocrat. The artists of this period had little concept of what Romans of Christ's era looked or dressed like... nor of what Christ or his disciples looked like. In no way would long hair have been seen as effeminate as it was the usual fashion of the time.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_crucifiy.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=crucifiy.jpg)

As for the portrayal of the nudity in the Crucifixion. On one hand this follows the Biblical description of Christ stripped of his robes. It also created an image of the Crucified Christ that was more pathetic... as the naked body appears more vulnerable and helpless. You also have the fact that forms of crucifixion were well-known at the time. The two robbers flanking Christ are strapped to trees in the painting above. This was a common means of torture and execution at the time. Individuals were strapped to poled... trees stripped of leaves and branches, and hoisted up into the sky where they would bake under the sun and be prey to birds: a slow, agonizing death.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_michelangelo_christ_carrying_the_cross_detail1. jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=michelangelo_christ_carrying_the_cross_det ail1.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_CHRISTTHEKINGdetailfromMichelangelosLASTJUDGMEN T.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=CHRISTTHEKINGdetailfromMichelangelosLASTJU DGMENT.jpg)

With Michelangelo and the High Renaissance you get still other developments. By this time there had been considerable excavation and study of classical era Roman architecture and sculpture. The artists were all profoundly inspired and impressed with the mastery of anatomy and the classical beauty of Roman sculpture. The Christ in Michelangelo's sculpture above shows a clear mastery of the human form. He portrays Christ now as a muscular Greco-Roman God... Apollo... from whom the first images of Christ as the Good Shepherd (Apollo was also a shepherd, a healer, and as the sun-god he rises again "from the dead") were developed:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_11shepherd2large.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=11shepherd2large.jpg)

His face is clearly suggests the beauty of Greek and Roman Classical art. He is still bearded and wears his hair long... but in the manner of a contemporary Italian.

In Michelangelo's Last Judgment (above) he portrays Christ as a super-human, muscular Greco-Roman god... a new Apollo... still sporting long-hair... but now clean-shaven.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_021612_1800_1217.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=021612_1800_1217.jpg)

-Peter Paul Rubens

The long hair remains a common element of nearly all images of Christ... but then long hair on men was the common fashion until well into the 18th century and Neo-Classical obsession with all things Roman... including hair styles. Most artists and the theologians who directed them on such matters were aware that Christ was Jewish, and that the Jewish men didn't shave their beards, so the beard remained one of the few attempts at historical veracity.

Later portrayals of Christ grew increasingly sensuous, such as in the painting by Rubens. In part, this was simply in response to the style of the time. Subject matter such as the Crucifixion or Adam and Eve were also simply enjoyed by artists for the simple reason that it gave the artist the chance to paint the nude body. In some instances Crucifixions and other Martyrdoms (especially the Martyrdom of Saint Sebastian) had clearly intended Sado-Masochistic and Homoerotic overtones.

The reason that others are challenging your various assertions here is that it seems that you are developing your own theories based upon personal observation.... which is all well and fine... something you observed "made you think" and you developed a theory... a hypothesis. You saw images of Christ naked... almost eroticized... and with long hair... and you wonder if perhaps the reason he might have been crucified was because he appeared "effeminate." The problem is that you do not then test you hypothesis against the historical facts. Christ almost certainly had long hair and a beard... but so did almost all the other men of the time and place. He wasn't living in America in the early 1960s when such an appearance was an affront to the conservative notions of male dress and fashion. Nor did you question when and how the painted imagery and iconography of Christ evolved... and just how knowledgeable such artists would have been concerning events the occurred centuries before.

Returning to the question of the Geisha... You state, "One must keep an open mind on things that might come up new and different regarding history." No one denies this... but there is a difference between "keeping" an open mind" and accepting everything you hear or read or every idea that you personally entertain as "fact" without being willing to test these against known historical facts. You came up with a theory after hearing tell of Julius Caesar's rumored homosexual experiences that he was murdered because he looked effeminate or because he was homosexual or bisexual. You then need to research the facts... find out where these rumors came from... look at the contemporary portraits of Julius... read contemporary accounts of his life and murder. Doing so we find your theory as to why Julius was murdered doesn't hold much water.

With regard to your theory concerning the Geisha... no one here can challenge or refute your theory for the simple reason that you have presented little more than hints an innuendo: the Geisha as some sexual sacrifice to monks. What monks? (Buddhist? Shinto?) When did this supposedly occur? Is this supposedly some common and wide-spread occurrence? Certainly no one would suggest that instances of sexual abuse never occurred involving Geisha (or Pseudo-Geisha) and monks. We are well enough acquainted with the sexual abuses involving the Christian clergy... as well as the comings and goings of nuns and monks. But you have asked others here what they think of the entire practice of Geisha and whether it is a sort of prostitution of the young with the consent of the parents... and yet you offer nothing for us to go on.

Again... we are all ears.

[cacian]

This is again a wealth of knowledge Stlukes and I thank you again for posting such an interesting read.
I shall comment more later on.