Honey and Salt

[Jack of Hearts]

Honey and Salt by Carl Sandburg. Let's talk about this poem.

http://stees.wordpress.com/2008/01/05/honey-salt-sandburg/

Here are three bits that were superb.


They all help: be cozy but not too cozy:
be shy, bashful, mysterious, yet only so-so:
then forget everything you ever heard about love
for it’s a summer tan and a winter windburn
and it comes as weather comes and you can’t change it:
it comes like your face came to you, like your legs came
and the way you walk, talk, hold your head and hands—
and nothing can be done about it—you wait and pray.

... and...


Yes and it gathers dust and mildew
and shrivels itself in shadows
unless it learns the sun can help,
snow, rain, storms can help—
birds in their one-room family nests
shaken by winds cruel and crazy—
they can all help:
lock not away your love nor keep it hid.

... and...


Bidden or unbidden? how comes love?
Both bidden and unbidden, a sneak and a shadow,
a dawn in a doorway throwing a dazzle
or a sash of light in a blue fog,
a slow blinking of two red lanterns in river mist
or a deep smoke winding one hump of a mountain
and the smoke becomes a smoke known to your own
twisted individual garments:
the winding of it gets into your walk, your hands,
your face and eyes.

How the end of the poem relates to what he said in the beginning. Is nice. Very nice.

What say you?









J

[cafolini]

I agree fully with you and this poem. One of the best ever written about this subject.

[Jack of Hearts]

We've always been in some weird fundamental agreement about things Mr. Folini. This is not surprising. Just disturbing.






J

[Jack of Hearts]

Tangentially related, here's the only video this reader could find of Carl Sandburg. It's from What's My Line.

Carl Sandburg What's My Line (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY-tdpsZ5D4)





J

[cacian]

How does Honey and Salt relate in this context?
I am not sure what this piece is talking about
I have reread it many times and I still cannot see how the title relate.

[Jack of Hearts]

There are sanctuaries holding honey and salt.
There are those who spill and spend.
There are those who search and save.
And love may be a quest with silence and content.

Here's the line from the poem. This is the end of the response to Sandburg's question How long does love last? It seems to be saying that some people, in how they love, 'spill' honey and 'spend' salt. And still other types of people 'search' for honey and 'save' salt. These two tastes really seem to go together. Maybe 'honey' is the part of love we, as humans, crave and 'salt' is a necessary counterpoint? Anyways, immensely interesting lines.







J

[cacian]

Hi J this an interesting piece thanks for adding it up.
I never knew about it.
I still cannot see how honey and salt conjur up a theme for love.
I can understand honey and honey moon expression but salt is often associated with injuries like the expression ''to rub salt on something'' or as a deterent or prevention.
There seem to be quite a contrast.
Honey is also supposed to be medicinal and is also used as a preventive potion.
Sorry I do not mean to be difficult I am just trying to find my own understanding on it.
When I saw honey I thought of sweet and sour.
Salt is not sour but honey is sweet.
I am not sure where I am going with this.
I tend to associate salt and sugar because they look the same and are of the same consistency.
Honey is liquidish and so salt and honey contrast to me is too obvious.
Sorry again I do not mean to be confusing.
I hope you do not mind me adding this up.
I propably stop now before I get in trouble.:(

[Jack of Hearts]

It seems the biggest thing to focus on is the contrast. Honey and salt are both sought for their flavor... But for different reasons and in inverse quantities.






J

[Jack of Hearts]

Kisses, Can You Come Back Like Ghosts? (http://sanfranciscoisbeautiful.wordpress.com/2007/10/30/blank-subject/)

A poem from the same collection ('Honey and Salt'). Simply astounding. Here's the middle stanza:


Love is a clock and the works wear out.
Love is a violin and the wood rots.
Love is a day with night at the end.
Love is a summer with falltime after.
Love dies always and when it dies it is dead
And when it is dead there is nothing more to it
And when there is nothing more to it then we say
This is the end, it comes always, it came to us.
And now we will bury it and put it away
Beautifully and decently, like a clock or a violin,
Like a summer day near falltime,
Like any lovely thing brought to the expected end.

Thoughts?






J

[cacian]

Hi Jack thank you for posting.
May I ask why you do find this piece astounding?

[Jack of Hearts]

Its treatment of love. Sandburg expresses the sentiment that we start with a living, breathing thing. But it dies and we're left with an object or a memory, a souvenir for our shelf, and then we go again. Seems pretty profound and practical.







J

[cacian]

Hi Jack I think there is something about this piece that feels wanten needed almost crying out for help.

I feel that it is too compressed and incorrect and many places for me anyway.
Poetry I find is a very a private affair and so declaring one's love under the sun in poetry and then taking it away as if it was a tragedy is rather uncompelling to me.

I like poetry that does not generalise and condem very public topic such as love or feelings in general.

For example inciting love as it being something forbidden like Adam and Eve and the forbidden apple is exactly what this piece is sounding to me.

There is tragedy and then there is positive uplifting feelings such as loving which an endearding natural feeling to us humans.
I feel that poetry many times then none has let down this very feeling and has given a tragic name.
I think love is to celebrated and looked after by us because the more we trample on it and treat as some kind of a curse, a punishible lovers deemed act or some kind of 'dirty affair'' between two unfaithful people then I am afraid it will trample on us back.

It is the old wheel's tale 'what goes around comes around' endlessly tragic and rather oppressive.

I believe that whilst we are able to write and think and free to feel in anwyay we want when it comes to sharing with the public ie writing poetry then I believe we must write carefully tread as not tho drag the rest of the world down with us.
Not everyone have affairs mistresses agree with Lolita''s publsihing and believe Romeo and Juiliet is the It.
Writing about public subjects such as love one must take care in the way one portrays it so not to project the idea that we are all in it because at the end the day that is anything but the truth and it does not reflect me or many others.

I feel literature should be truthful and exempt from stereotypes and illusions in order to exempt everyone from being the same tragic and pointless.
If anything we are different and literature should reinforce the differences in order to empower encourage an engage.

The issue I have with this piece is that it is depressing and does not engage me in any way shape or size.

:rant:

Sorry I hope you understand this is not against you and I do apologise in advance if it came across as that.

I hope this makes sense.

I look forward to more of your poetry posting !:p

[Jack of Hearts]

Couldn't disagree with you more. If somebody is going to write a poem, they'd better not have room for anybody else's truth. They'd better present their truth like it's the only truth there ever was.

Don't be careful. Be honest. Break toes and fingers but not your own heart.







J

[billl]

Yeah, it didn't really resonante with or appeal to me, probably for the same reasons it didn't work for cacian, but the poet can write whatever he or she wants, especially if they think it's true for them, that's the best policy of course. From the language, it might look like he's aiming for a universal statement, but it's a poet, and a manner of speaking.

[Jack of Hearts]

It's easy to see the strength in your assessment. This reader finds himself in opposition, naturally, because he believes in the sincerity of the poem (at least, at this point in time). But, as matter of curiosity, where do you two find yourselves in disagreement? Is it that you've experienced the things the poem speaks of in a different manner than it presents? Or do you feel that this poem lacks the authority to generalize across human experience?






J

[billl]

It's easy to see the strength in your assessment. This reader finds himself in opposition, naturally, because he believes in the sincerity of the poem (at least, at this point in time). But, as matter of curiosity, where do you two find yourselves in disagreement? Is it that you've experienced the things the poem speaks of in a different manner than it presents? Or do you feel that this poem lacks the authority to generalize across human experience?


The last part, about generalizing across human experience. I've known people who've never appeared to take love all that seriously, at least in the years that I'd known them. (And they weren't particularly old--they just regarded romance as a game, generally one of deception.)

More importantly, there are people I know for whom the clock never wound down. And to examine another facet of my opposition, for me, there are a couple old loves out there for whom I feel the watch still ticks, but it just isn't so close to my heart. And the one I've had for a while now, it seems like it's solar-powered or something (with batteries for nights, dark rooms, and rainy days!), really I'm a human and can love, and I can keep things going.

I'm a BIG fan of this Romantic love, though, and believe it's the most important, and I do know that it can run out, and I do know it can be different for different people. I'm glad to have Sandburg (and you) on my side, as far as that goes. I wouldn't claim mine or Sandburg's experience of romantic love was better or worse than the other's (though I do have a prejudice against those who take it less seriously, preferring for example "automatic compassion", or even worse, a sort of cynicism that never allows it to bloom beyond an ironic pose in a game of "poker", if you know what I mean).

[Jack of Hearts]

That's quite a lovely post you just made. You've got a habit of doing that.

Not entirely sure what you mean by 'Romantic' love. Sandburg's poem seems to be about how love ends, and when it dies you can yearn for its ghost. Is this melancholy aspect considered romantic? Or something else?






J



EDIT: Meant to respond to a few other things in your last post... oups.

[billl]

Not entirely sure what you mean by 'Romantic' love. Sandburg's poem seems to be about how love ends, and when it dies you can yearn for its ghost. Is this melancholy aspect considered romantic? Or something else?

I meant to put Romantic Love in a more primary position than the "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself," type, though both are important, of course.

I especially don't like it when some people try to portray Romantic Love as a mere stepping stone on the way to the other type (though romantic and family love can each naturally be expected to come first); or, even worse, when someone declares Romantic Love to be inferior, and an obstacle to attaining the other type.

[Jack of Hearts]

I meant to put Romantic Love in a more primary position than the "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself," type, though both are important, of course.

Ah, tracking you better now. Romantic/amorous love versus that other brand. This reader likes that posturing, in asserting 'Romantic love' as more primary.

What was offputting was the connotations that seem to follow the word 'Romantic.' That stuff about true love, eternal love, one love, fairytale love, love you more than the dawn itself etc. is strictly for the birds in this reader's opinion. And apparently Sandburg shares this opinion?

But this reader wouldn't be able to give you a working definition for that matter, either.


I especially don't like it when some people try to portray Romantic Love as a mere stepping stone on the way to the other type (though romantic and family love can each naturally be expected to come first); or, even worse, when someone declares Romantic Love to be inferior, and an obstacle to attaining the other type.

Yes, completely awful. Absolutely agreed.


The last part, about generalizing across human experience. I've known people who've never appeared to take love all that seriously, at least in the years that I'd known them. (And they weren't particularly old--they just regarded romance as a game, generally one of deception.)

Something in this reader's concept of intimacy suggests the use of deception renders this 'love' (or whatever it is) disingenuous at best. If it ain't honest and hurtin', how can you be doing it right? So this is how Jack of Hearts would defend Sandburg's sentiments for this particular point.


More importantly, there are people I know for whom the clock never wound down. And to examine another facet of my opposition, for me, there are a couple old loves out there for whom I feel the watch still ticks, but it just isn't so close to my heart. And the one I've had for a while now, it seems like it's solar-powered or something (with batteries for nights, dark rooms, and rainy days!), really I'm a human and can love, and I can keep things going.

This was a douzie of a paragraph here, lots of meat in there. Can you explain further what you mean when you say the watch is not wound down but also not so near your heart? That's very interesting in at least a few ways.

This reader never meant to say that he believes a relationship with a person ever dies in and of itself. But time is funny, and sometimes we share time with someone, and then our time ends even though the intimacy does not. But its not the disappearance or lack of something that causes the end, it's the end of the moment itself maybe. Does that even make sense? Eh.






J

[billl]

This reader never meant to say that he believes a relationship with a person ever dies in and of itself. But time is funny, and sometimes we share time with someone, and then our time ends even though the intimacy does not. But its not the disappearance or lack of something that causes the end, it's the end of the moment itself maybe. Does that even make sense? Eh.


This all makes sense to me. I can see how the Sandburg position can be consistent with it as well, with the exception of cases where clock's still running. Obviously (I think...) there are cases where it doesn't run out--I don't know, it might run a little slower, or stutter, or the face might get dirty, even scratched, I don't know, some adjustment to the metaphor--but some people can still keep it going pretty much as long as both of them are around. It can, in fact, strike back into full-working order at just the right moment, even if it does go a little while between polishings or whatever.

Anyhow, the vibe I got reading the poem, well the idea that ran through my head while getting the vibe, was, "What are the odds it'll end like that next time, with an attitude like that..."

[billl]

Can you explain further what you mean when you say the watch is not wound down but also not so near your heart? That's very interesting in at least a few ways.


I think it could maybe apply to a spectrum of cases--it can, for instance, depend on the ending. And if it ever started back up again (does Sandburg cover those cases?). And then, after that, if people eventually decide that it might be best to just put the thing away, it isn't the best watch for either of them, all things considered, so just shove it under the pillow, well, the mattress, god no, not in the bedroom anywhere... the couch, no not there either, maybe outside in the yard, no not there, maybe in a bunch of rocks, someplace like that--but anyhow, we got better watches now, no offense to either of us, love you forever. People like that, that's one kind of situation.

[Jack of Hearts]

Nicely put, billl. You seem to have this great, poetic sense of subtle things. This reader wouldn't refute anything you've posted, but finds himself simultaneously enlightened and in agreement.







J

[billl]

I just thought it was a gloomy one. And right after reading maybe as good of a poem as I'd ever read, in "Honey and Salt"! It made me a little vehement, but you pointed out how I was maybe overstating things with your objections, how I was maybe aiming at a different target, in some ways. So, thanks for sticking with and being sympathetic to my thoughts, as far as they actually did relate to what he meant to address.

[Jack of Hearts]

I just thought it was a gloomy one. And right after reading maybe as good of a poem as I'd ever read, in "Honey and Salt"! It made me a little vehement, but you pointed out how I was maybe overstating things with your objections, how I was maybe aiming at a different target, in some ways. So, thanks for sticking with and being sympathetic to my thoughts, as far as they actually did relate to what he meant to address.

In this reader's opinion, 'gloominess' is only half of the coin. Knowing that something can, will or must end makes it that much more precious to experience. You've pointed out that, metaphorically, the watch doesn't necessarily wind down, but we find better watches to suit us. And the others continue to tick, just further from our hearts. That seems poignant. When this reader looks back on previous relationships, it seems that there still is the ghost of something there, but maybe it wasn't what it once was nor is it what it should be in regards to achieving personal happiness. It's hard to say. This reader wouldn't say he's still in love with any of those girls, but there's still a special connection- so maybe love did die, or the part of something that made it love did die, and the watch ticking is not a metaphor for love but a deep connection just shy of it.

Sorry if that was like spewing nonsense at you. This reader likes these poems more than he can express. And of course, your thoughts were worth tracking as always- you could probably shape them into quite a poem if you chose to.







J

[cacian]

In this reader's opinion, 'gloominess' is only half of the coin. Knowing that something can, will or must end makes it that much more precious to experience. You've pointed out that, metaphorically, the watch doesn't necessarily wind down, but we find better watches to suit us. And the others continue to tick, just further from our hearts. That seems poignant. When this reader looks back on previous relationships, it seems that there still is the ghost of something there, but maybe it wasn't what it once was nor is it what it should be in regards to achieving personal happiness. It's hard to say. This reader wouldn't say he's still in love with any of those girls, but there's still a special connection- so maybe love did die, or the part of something that made it love did die, and the watch ticking is not a metaphor for love but a deep connection just shy of it.

Sorry if that was like spewing nonsense at you. This reader likes these poems more than he can express. And of course, your thoughts were worth tracking as always- you could probably shape them into quite a poem if you chose to.

J

Love is stronger then you think and so is man/mankind.
Love does not die as such because it is always there whenever the opportunity arises.
What dies is the abliity for someone to connect/feel love that is the issue.
One must not confuse the two.
That is one of the reasons I could not connect with the second poem because I am not the same as the writer.
I know who I am and have very much that sense of feeling love. I am very much in touch with my feelings so to speak.
I feel that is the subject ,love, is being made a scapegoat and rather then the poet expressing his inability to feel he/she is using love as the mechanism to his difficulties.

One way of addressing anything is to always question and look within one and the environment in which one has been raised.
Many personal issues stem from that lack of judgement ie understanding oneself.
Onemust face one's past and present in order to move onto a better future.
It is better to search for that missing link that bit that connects one person with love.
Once that link has been made then love from that person to the another person is established. It is a kind of bond or bonding if you like.
This is how I understand to be.
One that does not love themselves cannot love others and whilst that is pending love will carry on to suffer as a result of man/mankind blaming it or giving it a bad name.
It is easy to pass the blame but it is not easy to find it in us because one does not know how where or how look I guess.
But, there is always a but, once that admission is processed and the person has finally leaped that step, searching for their own truth that is when all will fall into place like a jigsaw puzzle.
They do say life is a ride and that is one ride to be had.
I hope I am making some kind of sense here haha.

[Jack of Hearts]

T'was an epic thread. Maybe someone else wants to contribute to this?





J