Lucifer/Satan

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Hello! Hello! Good, folks! Neo, here! :D

Well, before we begin, I know that the rules have stated this already but I would just like to remind everyone to be respectful and mindful of others if you are to post here. Everyone is going to have different opinions and perspectives on topics. That's a given. If you have no interest in this topic or nothing nice to say then move on.

We are here not to convert or argue a point to the extreme...Well, a little debate or discussion is okay. We are here to learn and/or understand each other views. Not to belittle or ridicule. That is how I have always seen it. So, thank you all kindly and without further interruption, to the main topic!

As you can see from the title, it's about Lucifer/Satan. I want to ask what is Lucifer/Satan connection/relation to Heaven? I asked this because some see no connection at all and say that Satan has always been a demon and always will be. Some say that Lucifer and Satan are two different beings. There's probably more that has been said but I don't know it.

My take on this is that Lucifer was an angel in Heaven but rebelled against God and was cast down and out of Heaven.

What's your take on this? I would like to know.

[togre]

I try to draw 'my take' from the Bible and say no more and no less than there can be supported by specific passages of Scripture. Sometimes it surprises me how much popular opinion or understanding is informed by works of fiction, like movies or Dante's Divine Comedy.

Scripture teaches that all demons were one angels who "fell" into sin by rebelling against the Lord. The head of these angels is Satan or the devil. While there are many names that the Bible uses for him, Satan is an individual and these names (including Satan and devil) are descriptive terms to highlight (or ridicule) certain of his characteristics.

For example, the name "devil" means 'slanderer.' He is also referred to as the Father of Lies. These names refer to his use of lies to tempt and deceive, especially referring to the the temptation of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

"Satan" means "accuser" and is used often in a courtroom setting. When the devil tempts us to sin, he then gloats and demands we be punished as he was. (Note: In Romans 8, St. Paul uses the courtroom imagery to portray Jesus as the advocate who has already suffered in our place and now speaks for us when accused.)

"Lucifer" is was used in the King James Version to translate the word the means "light bearer." This would be understood as star or the morning star as was originally a title for the King of Babylon. In the context Isaiah is mixing the imagery of the the nation of Israel's political enemy, Babylon, and the attacks and damages from this enemy, with the spiritual enemy of God's spiritual kingdom of believers.


So the Bible speaks of only one chief demon or fallen angel, but speaks of him with a variety of terms.

Do some separate these terms and titles into distinct individuals? Do some people draw on sources other than the Bible? Certainly. But it is my opinion that it is...intellectually incosistent ('cause I can't say stupid;)) to draw from the Bible or to use Biblical terms and concepts, but to also incorporate ideas from other origins. The Bible claims an authority above other sources. If you reject that claim (by treating it as one source among many) of what use is any other claim or information you find in it?

[JuniperWoolf]

In one sense we have Lucifer from Isaiah 14:12-14, the one Togre describes, the same that Milton describes which just-so-happens to be my avatar right now which is why I came into this thread in the first place. I tend to use the name "Lucifer" for this version, but to me it's just a character in a really, really good story. I love that story, and Lucifer's eternal, hopeless defiance.

In another sense, historically speaking, Satan is how Christianity characterized paganism and nature worship. I tend to use the word "Satan" for this one, but it's all just symbolism. The Hindu diety Pashupati, the Celtic Stag diety Cernunnos, the Greek god Pan, the Christian goat Satan, and the Neopagan Horned God are all the same thing.

The Hindu god Pashupati (~2900 BCE, which makes him the oldest), diety of animals:
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_goat1.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=goat1.jpg)

The Greek god Pan (~500 BCE), not evil or good, just a sort of hedonistic kind of silly (like all Greek gods) nature diety:
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_goat2.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=goat2.jpg)

The Celtic god Cernunnos (~100 CE earliest anthropological evidence, but worshiped earlier than that), diety of nature and fertility:
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_goat3.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=goat3.jpg)

Christian goat Satan, made straight-up evil:
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_goat4.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=goat4.jpg)

Modern Neopagan Horned God, nature diety, made benevolent again, and heavily inspired by Cernunnos:
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_goat5.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=goat5.jpg)

I might even have missed some, but the point is that people from around the world at various points in history inspired each other's imagery and symbolism in terms of the horned-goat-god, but with the eyes of their particular beliefs putting their own spin on it.

So to me, in that one sense of Satan, it is very early Christianity's demonization (literally) and/or fear of nature worship.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Togre ~ I see. I think I see where you are coming from. If you are using the Bible as one of many sources of reference then what use is any other information you find in other sources, right? Since the Bible claim authority over other sources. I'll have to agree with you if that's what you mean.

It's interesting to see the differences in people looking for answers. Some draw and take from one source. Some draw from many. Some just keep soaking up information like no other and end up confused.

As for the names and their meanings, the Bible has many. I know that there are meanings behind most names, if not every name, that pops up in the Bible. It's pretty interesting to know the meaning behind those names.

Anyway, it seems you are well verse in the scriptures. Been doing your study, eh?

Juni ~ Well, that's interesting now that you brought up the connection with Satan and other pagan gods. I've never paid much attention to the imagery until you put up those pictures.

It's true. It seems that many religion has some sort of similarities with one another. It's always just a tad bit of a difference but you can still see the similarities.

I still can't figure out where or how they can come up with such, forgive me if offend anybody, crazy off-the-wall images? I mean, really? A Goat?

[jmanu86]

Hi, I think Satan -along with all of the names and shapes, drawn for he- is just a poetical way to explain the dark side of God. I guess it's just God's other face, like his alter-ego. Like the shadow as opposition to light. Some think it's the same person. Just an opinion. Don't mean to be anti-religion, just think that satan a figure is as necessary as God, we couldn't explain the bad things happening in our world. Like why God allows such tragedies to occur? What would be his role if bad wouldn't exist? It's a duality I'd say.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Hi, I think Satan -along with all of the names and shapes, drawn for he- is just a poetical way to explain the dark side of God. I guess it's just God's other face, like his alter-ego. Like the shadow as opposition to light. Some think it's the same person. Just an opinion. Don't mean to be anti-religion, just think that satan a figure is as necessary as God, we couldn't explain the bad things happening in our world. Like why God allows such tragedies to occur? What would be his role if bad wouldn't exist? It's a duality I'd say.

That's very interesting. Poetical, the dark side of God, alter-ego.

I think it's true that there are oppositions to all things, if not most. Light and dark. Pain and pleasure, etc. However, as a believer, I'm not so sure that's the connection between Satan and God. I'll agree that they're definitely opposite.

Your input and thoughts are very interesting. I like it and I would definitely like to hear more of it. That goes for everybody as well. We have a lot of people on this forum and I know that they're many great minds here, not to mention great people in general.

Whenever I can think of a new topic, I'll make a new thread. Please, feel free to add your input. Just know that I tend to be a peacekeeper so as long the posts are civil, I welcome it. :D

[jmanu86]

That's very interesting. Poetical, the dark side of God, alter-ego.

I think it's true that there are oppositions to all things, if not most. Light and dark. Pain and pleasure, etc. However, as a believer, I'm not so sure that's the connection between Satan and God. I'll agree that they're definitely opposite.

Your input and thoughts are very interesting. I like it and I would definitely like to hear more of it. That goes for everybody as well. We have a lot of people on this forum and I know that they're many great minds here, not to mention great people in general.

Whenever I can think of a new topic, I'll make a new thread. Please, feel free to add your input. Just know that I tend to be a peacekeeper so as long the posts are civil, I welcome it. :D

Well thank you, that was just my two pennies :) on your topic. I'm eager to discuss some more on this and other things.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Well thank you, that was just my two pennies :) on your topic. I'm eager to discuss some more on this and other things.

Perfect. :) Bring it to the table. This thread has not been closed. :D

[jmanu86]

All right then, what do you think about this: In the Bible we found Satan as the adversary; the one who instigates and rebels against God. I have not a entirely knowledge on the Book, but it is clear (at least all over the Old Testament) that most of human disgraces, comes from the hand of the Lord. Either if these are to put a test on them or just a "bet" like in Job's case.

I mean, where do the Idea of Satan as the bad guy comes from? Yes, he is the rival and the fallen angel and the ruler of the inferno (if you choose to believe), but, how many times did he do something directly against men? Just thought. What do you think?

[togre]

I have seen a young child being corrected. The child is told "stop," he is told more forcefully, and even threatened with consequences. None of these phased the child. Finally enough is enough. The teacher walks over to the child, takes him by the hand and leads him to the "time out" spot. The child's fate is sealed. They are being punished for their actions. And yet, in a fit of pique the child lashes out. He strikes at the teacher who holds his hand, yes. But he also kicks at his friend's blocks, throws his classmate's crayons and does all the general damage his can. Why? He is angry--that means all should suffer.

In many ways this illustrates the actions of the devil. He rebelled against God. He lost. He is being sent to hell, the place of his eternal torment. Yet he is not content to suffer alone. He lashes out. He seeks to hurt anyone or anything (cf. the account of the demon possessed man in the New Testament who would injure himself or the demons that were cast out into a herd of pigs and stampeded them off a cliff). He especially desire to hurt God and those God loves. His greatest coup was to tempt Adam and Eve and plunge the entire race into sin. His greatest defeat was Jesus' death on the cross that rescued all who believe from suffering for our sins.

Regarding your claim that "most human disgraces come from the hand of the Lord," you need to be more clear. Does the Lord allow bad things to happen to people? Yes. Does the Lord sometimes send suffering into their lives? Yes. But 1) never is this casual, for his own amusement or out of lack of care or concern, 2) no suffering allowed to occur in this life is as severe as the punishment all deserve to receive in payment for sin, 3) often the Lord prevents disaster and suffering from happening, 4) other times he uses it to accomplish a good purpose and benefit those who suffer (this is the context of the term 'test'--it never is "Let's see what so-and-so can endure", but rather "this will train so-and-so to rely on me and not on things that could fail) and 5) nothing can be understood outside of the context of eternal salvation. Biggest suffering possible--eternity in hell. The Lord, at the unbelievable cost of his own Son, purchased forgiveness so no one needs to go to hell, but will be forgiven through faith in Jesus. All other things are used to draw people to faith and sustain them in that faith until death (or eternal life, depending on how you view it). Compared to the least God desires to give you, the worst a person could suffer seems entirely worth it.

To answer more thoroughly should probably be in the "why do bad things happen to good people" thread--and I haven't the strength to answer more on that thread. Also, your analysis of Job is problematic. A simplified version is: Satan accused Job of only trusting God because God bribed him. God proves this is not true by allowing Satan to do what he pleases to Job for a time (not the same as God causing these things). God, in the closing discourse, tell Job (and all readers) that we are not in a position to understand or judge his ways and should instead realize our limitations and trust him. Then he blesses Job a lot.

[the_hibernator]

Hi, I think Satan -along with all of the names and shapes, drawn for he- is just a poetical way to explain the dark side of God. I guess it's just God's other face, like his alter-ego. Like the shadow as opposition to light. Some think it's the same person. Just an opinion. Don't mean to be anti-religion, just think that satan a figure is as necessary as God, we couldn't explain the bad things happening in our world. Like why God allows such tragedies to occur? What would be his role if bad wouldn't exist? It's a duality I'd say.

I would say that darkness is actually the ABSENCE of light, it's not the opposite of light. The metaphor would then be (in my opinion) that Satan is the absence of God. Which makes more sense to me. I don't really believe that Satan is the absence of God, but I believe that Hell is the absence of God. People who go to Hell choose to go there because they do not want to be in the presence of God.

I think that Satan and Lucifer are both metaphors that humans have created to explain a contradiction in our natures. It is in our nature to do what is best for ourselves. It is also in our nature to do what's best for society as a whole (because, after all, without society we'd have a harder time surviving). Sometimes these two natures conflict because sometimes doing what's best for society isn't going to be good for us. We explain this inward struggle by saying that Satan is tempting us.

As for why God allows tragedies to occur--how could we appreciate what is good and happy in life if we never see sorrow. We should embrace all emotions even if they are tragic because they teach us about ourselves. Adam and Eve didn't appreciate Paradise because they'd never experienced the alternative. Our right to free choice is therefore irrevocably tied to tragedy.

On an aside: I've never been fond of the book of Job. I wish people wouldn't quote it at me when I'm having a bad time of life.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

J. ~ Excellent. I like your spunk.

Well, regarding human disgraces mostly caused by the Hand of God, it seems to me that those disgraces are mostly done to the wicked. While the ones who adheres to the commandments of God are blessed. Simple, I know.

As for Job, he was an upright man. Satan, upon seeing this, says to God that Job only worships God because of the abundance of blessings. If God should withdraw the blessings from Job, he would curse and denied God. The following events that occurs, I admit, shocked me. God withdrew His support from Job and, you're right, it does seem like a bet. That was insane. I don't know what to say about that. All I can say right now is that it was one of the very few time that the Lord withdrew His support from someone. I will also say, to finish off about Job, is that no matter what Satan did Job did not curse or denied God.

Regarding the idea of Satan being a bad guy and where it came from I think it is fairly simple. If someone is causing another person to be miserable or to suffer, that person is generally going to be called a bad person. So, in like manner, Satan causes people misery, suffering and much more.

Also, regarding this, I don't think Satan actually has the power to do something directly against men. I believe he can have an influence over men but he can do nothing more than that.

We are free to choose. I believe that no one has the power to really make us do anything. We can be influence by many, sure. In the end, however, it is us that makes the decisions. So, if we so choose it, we can listen to Satan. If we don't listen, he'll move on to the next person and see if they'll listen or not. It's our freedom of choice.

That's what I think.

Togre ~ I really like your analogy of the little child.

[jmanu86]

Ok, I got all your points.

@togre: I did say it wrong; not "most of human disgraces come from God" it was my bad. What I was trying to say, is that either the reason for which the disgrace comes, it does seems to be addressed by God, not Satan. You're all right, it is no to punish or kill the people without a reason. But it's clear that God have the power to act for the benefit or the distress or men.

@hibernator: Also right, Satan/bad/darkness is the ABSENCE of God/wealth/light; I share that too. And no, I didn't want to quote Job as a rough time episode. Its a great book (of my favorites of the Bible) and it shows mercy and redemption also.

@Neo: you did claim "Satan causes people misery"? Sorry for the skepticism; I don't mean to be a Satan fan (I'm not!) but do you have examples, on which Satan acts with his own power against humans? I mean, if there are I would like to know if I was wrong.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

J ~ My apologies. I forgot that I'm speaking from a believer point of view. So when I said Satan causes misery and whatnot, it is generally what believers think of Satan. That his a bad guy and that he is the source of evil influences.

As a believer, I do believe Satan is real. But I know he can't be seen. I believe his influence is in the world but, if you are wanting an example, I don't know if I can give you one. Obviously, we hear many stories and news via T.V., Newspapers, Internet, etc. When we hear a story in which a person or a group of people did something horrible such as killing sprees, murders, etc., we have different perspectives on it.

Seeing those horrible things happened, some can say Satan is at work, or that he/she is just mentally unstable, or so many other views.

In truth, I don't even want to bring up any news or examples because I can't speak for other people. Even when hearing some of these news and/shows of people being possessed, killing because of Satan's influence supposedly, I don't believe it right away. In fact, sometimes I bluntly say that's not real, they're just idiots, and whatnot.

It's just a difference in our perspectives.

[jmanu86]

@Neo: I respect your view. I tend to believe that Satan doesn't have any power or the ability to act over humanity. It's interesting all this; we could spend writing forever (as many others have done) and might never get an accord. I consider agnostic myself, was raised in catholic family and fell great respect for those to still are in the way, so its Ok to believe the source of evil as one desires, and so the blessings as well.

At the end, we might get the answers. Meanwhile, discuss about this, has been a thrill!

:::Cheers!:::

[Neo_Sephiroth]

@Neo: I respect your view. I tend to believe that Satan doesn't have any power or the ability to act over humanity. It's interesting all this; we could spend writing forever (as many others have done) and might never get an accord. I consider agnostic myself, was raised in catholic family and fell great respect for those to still are in the way, so its Ok to believe the source of evil as one desires, and so the blessings as well.

At the end, we might get the answers. Meanwhile, discuss about this, has been a thrill!

:::Cheers!:::

It has been my honor to discuss this subject with you. I hope we can have more of these discussions. Until next we meet on another thread, cheers! :D

[cacian]

About Lucifer who could be the direct result of such a creature?
If it is God's making then what would be the reasons for such a deficient nuisance creature?
God surely has better things to do that make life difficult for everyone.
Just a thought there.

[Freudian Monkey]

In one sense we have Lucifer from Isaiah 14:12-14, the one Togre describes, the same that Milton describes which just-so-happens to be my avatar right now which is why I came into this thread in the first place. I tend to use the name "Lucifer" for this version, but to me it's just a character in a really, really good story. I love that story, and Lucifer's eternal, hopeless defiance.

In another sense, historically speaking, Satan is how Christianity characterized paganism and nature worship. I tend to use the word "Satan" for this one, but it's all just symbolism. The Hindu diety Pashupati, the Celtic Stag diety Cernunnos, the Greek god Pan, the Christian goat Satan, and the Neopagan Horned God are all the same thing.

I might even have missed some, but the point is that people from around the world at various points in history inspired each other's imagery and symbolism in terms of the horned-goat-god, but with the eyes of their particular beliefs putting their own spin on it.

So to me, in that one sense of Satan, it is very early Christianity's demonization (literally) and/or fear of nature worship.

Thanks for the insightful account.

I agree that all the different anthropomorphic variations of evil essentially derive from same mythological source, which is the cosmic oneness, harmony or God. The perfect state of the golden age or the paradise then begins to degenerate by forming the first dualisms - man and woman, good and evil etc. In the old testament Lucifer's role didn't seem to be categorically pure evil but rather that of a rebel or a fallen hero like Oedipus who is doomed by his hubris. Later christian theologians transformed him into an all-encompassing evil that was thought to have been responsible for every evil deed right from the beginning - a perfect scapegoat to drive away from amongst the people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oC1rsPVLks

[Neo_Sephiroth]

About Lucifer who could be the direct result of such a creature?
If it is God's making then what would be the reasons for such a deficient nuisance creature?
God surely has better things to do that make life difficult for everyone.
Just a thought there.

True. I wonder that myself sometimes. Perhaps, God did create Lucifer. If so, maybe, just as a child grows up into his/her own person, that's what happened to Lucifer? Lucifer grew up and rebel for whatever the reasons may be, Lucifer rebelled.

We all have freedom of choice. So, perhaps, if there are freedom of choice on Earth there should be freedom of choice in Heaven. Of course, this is not doctrines or whatnot. It's just my thoughts and opinions.

I think there are certainly differences between Heaven and Earth. But could there really be that much of a difference between the two? In my opinion, I think it's simpler than most would imagine.

To me, it's simple logic.

[cacian]

True. I wonder that myself sometimes. Perhaps, God did create Lucifer. If so, maybe, just as a child grows up into his/her own person, that's what happened to Lucifer? Lucifer grew up and rebel for whatever the reasons may be, Lucifer rebelled.

I guess if God did create lucifer then the opposite must be true.
He should be able to uncreate him.
How else would one justify and prove God's power?
The answer is to undo with has been done. That is power.That id God



We all have freedom of choice. So, perhaps, if there are freedom of choice on Earth there should be freedom of choice in Heaven. Of course, this is not doctrines or whatnot. It's just my thoughts and opinions.

I think there are certainly differences between Heaven and Earth. But could there really be that much of a difference between the two? In my opinion, I think it's simpler than most would imagine.

To me, it's simple logic.

I think this idea that heaven only exists if hell does is the same as saying white only exists is black did which we all know is rubbish.
If God set hell as an example to punish his people after they have died why punish them on earth too and scare the life out of them by setting hell as an example?
It does not make sense.
But then to prove his point God with this same power God should be able to undo it and so lucifer is no longer. Why compete with evil when you can have it all and compete with none.
The power to do and the power to undo is where it's at. That is the true meaning of power that is the true meaning of God.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Cacian ~ Again, I do apologize in advance if I say anything that offends anyone in any way. But this is my thoughts and opinions.

I have to ask myself in my mind, "If men and women can't undo their own child/children without killing them...Can God undo Lucifer without killing him as well?" I think God has great and all powers but, perhaps, God is still subject to laws? Not ordinary laws but some kind of divine laws. I don't know what those divine laws are. Divinity is not my specialty. The laws of men, however, I know a tad bit about.

As for hell, I actually don't believe it exist.

[cacian]

Cacian ~ Again, I do apologize in advance if I say anything that offends anyone in any way. But this is my thoughts and opinions.

I have to ask myself in my mind, "If men and women can't undo their own child/children without killing them...Can God undo Lucifer without killing him as well?" I think God has great and all powers but, perhaps, God is still subject to laws? Not ordinary laws but some kind of divine laws. I don't know what those divine laws are. Divinity is not my specialty. The laws of men, however, I know a tad bit about.

As for hell, I actually don't believe it exist.

Hmm that is the power of divinity it just removes it as in rubs out.
A bit like when one scribbles with a pencil and then thinks it is too scruffy so reaches out for the rubber which gets rid of it. Notice it is the rubber that does it not anyone else.
That simple.
Humans however do.
That I guess the difference between a God and a human.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Hmm that is the power of divinity God just removes as in rubs out, a bit like when one scribbles with a pencil and then thinks that is no good so he reaches out for the rubberthat simple.
Humans however do.
That I guess the difference between a God and a human.

Hmmm...I definitely agree that God has that power to do so. I also agree that there is quite a dramatic difference between God and humans. After all, the scriptures does say God create humans. So, for me to say that there is a dramatic difference between God and humans is most definitely an understatement.

However, still, I ponder in my mind..."If God can just rub out the wicked, and there are many in this world...How is it that they are still here?"

That leads me on to ask..."What is stopping God? He has all powers...What could possibly stop Him from doing so?"

Which brings me to these theories and questions...Could it be some forces of law? An eternal law that forbid ls Him to interfere and used His power even though He has that power?

[Freudian Monkey]

"It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us."
- Reverend Mackerel

[Neo_Sephiroth]

"It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us."
- Reverend Mackerel

That is very profound.

[cacian]

"It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us."
- Reverend Mackerel

Omnipotence as oppose to impotance?
The two sounds rather related.
The word final does not make sense because final goes contradicts infinity which we know is where we are at.
''He needs not to exist'' I am afraid is saying ''well I exist and without God then I need not exist too.''
By negating God one must negate themselves too it is the rule of thumb.
To save us? from what ? who is us?
I thought salvation is true Jesus and so where does that leave Jesus and God and the Bible.
Do we deny that too?
One can live in denial but one cannot destroy what has been written.
One cannot destroy a word it is impossible in the same way that one cannot destroy meanings because of memory.
One can burn a book but one cannot get rid off what is been written.

I am not us I did not negate nor did I contradict so I stick out of it.
A proof to who and why?
If the word God exist then what other proof are we looking for?
A bit like saying
The word I does not exist so how do I proof it does not ?
Well I can't because I need to write it to prove it and without the I cannot write.
A catch22?

[Freudian Monkey]

That is very profound.

Comedy is often profound. I'm glad that you liked it.

[cacian]

Comedy is often profound. I'm glad that you liked it.

Hi can I ask what your signature mean?

[Ser Nevarc]

"It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us."
- Reverend Mackerel

God is batman?

[cacian]

"It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us."
- Reverend Mackerel

why does anyone needs to save anybody?
999 can do that.