Kristen Lavransdatter

[TheFifthElement]

So I'm reading the above epic by Nobel Laureate Sigrid Undset. It's a whopper so not for the faint hearted. Anyone like to join? If so, please share your thoughts here.

[rootinghog]

Some thoughts about 350 pages in (without spoilers): So far, I've had something of a tempestuous relationship with K.L. There are some passages and scenes that absolutely thrill me, and some chapters that I feel I just have to trudge through.

To start with the pros: Kristin herself, along with all of the central characters, are exceptionally realized. She feels like one of those rare characters whose life you are happy to follow through 1,000+ pages. With such a panoramic view of her life, you can see how past events and relationships come to affect her current actions and decisions (something that can feel forced or manipulated in lesser novels). And the author allows her to be unlikable at times-- spoiled, naive, or impetuous-- in a manner that only deepens your understanding of and attachment to her. This is true of all the principal characters; no one is as simple as they first seem, and Undset tends to undercut romantic cliches of medieval types. I've also really enjoyed Kristin's interactions with certain "outsiders" such as Brother Edvin or Lady Aaschild-- people who fall outside the limited scope of her tight-knit family, but who provide a fresh perspective on religion and tradition that Kristin isn't quite mature enough to understand. Nevertheless, her memory of these figures comes back to guide or inspire her as she grows into adulthood, which I found quite moving and accurate to my own experience. And the nature writing is truly beautiful-- it could be partially due to my antiquated translation, but the depictions of the scenery have been incredibly evocative for me. There was one mention of riding from a heavily wooded area into a clearing that she compares to the sensation of waking up-- so good.

My main struggle with the book is the pace. It's hard to pinpoint what makes certain sections slow-going for me, but I do sometimes have to force myself through. I find the best way to approach this is to regiment my reading more than normal-- say, commit to reading at least 50 pages a day-- so that the feeling of progress outweighs any boredom. Fortunately, the good sections more than pay-off, so I'm in it for the long run. I also sometimes wonder to what extent Undset drops a 20th Ce perspective of human interiority into a 14th Ce setting. While certain emotions and motivations have been around for ages, the way we perceive or situate ourselves within our relationships and our community is largely a function of time and place. For the most part, I think Undset weaves this into Kristin's character, who struggles finding a role for herself outside of her established family and childhood traditions; she certainly lived in a more communal/collectivist culture than our individualistic age. Still, I sometimes wonder whether certain thoughts or certain emotions would have even been encountered 700 years ago... but who knows? My brief encounter with Genji only makes me more confused on that point.

Long story short: loving most, pushing through the rest, and looking forward to seeing these characters grow and deepen.

[TheFifthElement]

So I'm about 100 pages in and so far so good. I'm finding it easy going - I haven't had any issues with the pace yet but perhaps I'm not far enough in (she's just going into cloisters) or perhaps it might be the translation? It might be worth comparing some passages to see if that has an impact.

It has the feel, for me, of something like a feminist saga. Last year I read some of the Sagas of the Icelanders and this reminds me very much of that. I'm not sure if any of the sagas are written from a female perspective, but I feel almost as though Undset is plugging that gap, and that she is showing that the female 'battle' is rooted very much in the issue of desire, social expectations and women's situation as tradeable property. I found the whole sequence around Arne sad both from the perspective of what happened to him but also how Kristen reacted to it and her feeling that it was her fault albeit that in respect of both parties she was a passive participant around whom the events happened, rather than taking an active role. In all of the events that have happened so far I've felt that about Kristen - that much is done around her that she feels somehow responsible for or that she feels if only she were a 'better' or more pious person could be improved.

I too love her interactions with Fru Aaschild and Brother Edvin. I find the Brother Edvin character very soothing, as I'm sure you're meant to, in his eccentricities.

In terms of this point:


I also sometimes wonder to what extent Undset drops a 20th Ce perspective of human interiority into a 14th Ce setting. While certain emotions and motivations have been around for ages, the way we perceive or situate ourselves within our relationships and our community is largely a function of time and place. For the most part, I think Undset weaves this into Kristin's character, who struggles finding a role for herself outside of her established family and childhood traditions; she certainly lived in a more communal/collectivist culture than our individualistic age. Still, I sometimes wonder whether certain thoughts or certain emotions would have even been encountered 700 years ago... but who knows? My brief encounter with Genji only makes me more confused on that point.

I feel it is quite authentic, though obviously difficult to judge. I think having read Genji earlier this year and some of the sagas last year, both of which were written in earlier periods, it reinforces to me the feeling that actually we are not so distant from our earliest ancestors and that there are some timeless issues which plague one generation to the next and perhaps it is stories that are woven around these issues that have that feeling of timelessness?

I've also enjoyed, so far, the way Undset juxtaposes Christianity against the older pagan religions. I love the way that people fall back to the 'old ways' out of superstition or expedience, and also how their relationship with Christianity is not that different in that it remains one of bargaining. I think the character of Brother Edvin helps to draw this out.

In terms of the writing, I am finding this a beautifully written book. It does have a very Scandinavian feel to it. I'm not sure I can explain it exactly but it reminds me a little of the works of Halldor Laxness in that it has a kind of sly twinkly-eyed humour to it. I couldn't point to anything specific, but it gives me that general feel.

[rootinghog]

Glad to hear you're enjoying it! It is interesting to think of the book as a saga seen through a feminist lens-- particularly in the second book, there are several passages when the men discuss politics, or a main male character voyages out to sea, but the book rarely follows their travels, instead focusing on the responsibilities, alienation, and occasional joys of a 14th Ce domestic life. I haven't read any of the Sagas of the Icelanders (and am holding off on reading Independent People until I do), but this just may inspire me to delve into them.

As I've progressed through the book, I think I've pinpointed the areas that tend to drag for me: generally, I find myself getting lost in the discussions of political appointments and tensions, which don't really appear until the 2nd book (and then only sparsely). That's mostly a weakness on my part-- I know absolutely nothing about medieval Scandinavian political history, and I haven't put effort into researching the topic to learn more. Since the parts of the book that I treasure most are the gradual development of the characters and the imaginative reconstruction of medieval daily life, I don't feel too bad about the omission. Still, political history is clearly an important facet of this book, even though it remains in the background, so if you've found it interesting or particularly important to the narrative I'd love to hear your thoughts.

And I think you've definitely pinpointed one of Kristin's fundamental traits: a pervasive sense of guilt and responsibility for things that are done to her. In most of the characters, there seems to be an inverse correlation between actions and self-concept; the characters who act the worst think little of their misdeeds, while the most righteous characters tend to brood upon their minor flaws and spiritual failures. I love the occasional glimpses we get of Lavrans's or Gunnulf's interiority, when the outward appearance of honor, strength, and faithfulness belies life-long feelings of sinfulness and self-doubt. Of course, that must have a lot to do with the religion of the time and the ideal of a religious, saintly life, which seems as impossible to achieve as the role of the impeccable (and prodigiously child-producing) wife.

So: 2/3 of the way through and still loving it. I'm really looking forward to seeing where the last third of the book takes Kristin. Something tells me that sense of guilt and desire for a more righteous life isn't something that just goes away...

[TheFifthElement]

Oh I'd recommend Independent People whether or not you've read the sagas. It's a cracker. The sagas are really good too once you get past the 'X' is decended from 'X' who's decended from 'X' who married 'X' bit. Terrible, all these Icelanders named 'X' :D

So, Kristen. I am still enjoying it very much. I'm surprised how much I've become wrapped up in the lives of the characters. I'm about 650 pages in now, still reading through The Wife. How are you getting along?

I agree with what you say about the inverse correlation between the characters actions and their sense of responsibility. In a way, I find Kristen a bit annoying as she's quite self absorbed in her guilt and seems to thrive only when she is suffering adversity. But then I also admire her, because she does what she believes in rather than what would be expected of her by the society which surrounds her. And this causes endless trouble for her, but yet she is living a self actualised life when such would not be expected for her.

I agree that it is also good when you get those tiny insights into the other characters - like Erland who isn't as bad as he sometimes appears, and Simon Andresson who isn't as good as he appears, although he is undoubtedly good. I do think Kristen takes a lot for granted, particularly in her relationships with Simon and I find myself wishing that she would treat him better. I also wish that Undset would stop killing people off. I know it is more realistic, but sometimes too sad for the morning train journey...

[rootinghog]

Well, Kristin and I parted ways last night after a long and turbulent relationship... and that has always been one of my favorite things about reading these massive novels: not so much the sense of accomplishment at finishing, but the satisfaction of knowing all you can know about a set of people, and having seen the wavering arcs of their lives completed. And, yes, also the sense of accomplishment! (Added bonus: the freedom to read books with slightly more nondescript covers on the commute...)

Obviously, I'll stay away from specifics, but I can say that I was incredibly satisfied with the ending, or even the entirety of "The Cross". My attention began to wander in "The Wife", which isn't so uncommon for me around the halfway point of such a massive undertaking.

Two things really stick with me this morning. First is the sense of loss that I felt as a reader throughout the novel after the death of most any character. Sure, it's sad when anyone dies in a book, but what felt so lifelike in Kristin was the continued absence of the departed characters. It seems like hardly anyone passes away without being brought into the narrative again several times, either through dreams or memories, in a way that deeply influences Kristin. Particularly moving were the scenes in which Kristin would try to invoke memories of her father's moral certitude to guide her in an imperfect world. I don't know if I've ever read a truer depiction of how our departed loved ones continue to be felt as an absence throughout our lives, yet how they nevertheless live within our dreams or memories to guide or comfort us in times of need.

Something else that stands out to me was the concept of aging and the way in which we continuously re-frame experience and memory from the new vantage points afforded by the passing of time. Kristin is clearly predisposed to brooding, but her interpretation of the major events in her life-- particularly her betrothal to Erlend-- is constantly shifting depending on her current circumstances. This is directly very beautifully near the end of the novel-- how a sense of spiritual wholeness can result from stepping above our narrative of our lives and looking down on the grand scheme to see how everything fits together.

Anyways, that is all very vague, but I wanted to make sure not to discuss any details while you're still reading the book. And I hate to say it, but I don't think those morning train journeys are going to get any easier...

[TheFifthElement]

Wow! Well that was an emotional tour-de-force. For anyone out there who chances by this thread and is wondering whether Kristin is worth the bother, I can say for certainty that it is. Never a disappointing moment for me.

rootinghog, you were so right about those sad moments on the train:

Erlend :cryin:
Simon: :cryin: :cryin: :cryin:

And there's more. I don't want to spoil it for anyone by noting them all here, but that little side reference towards the end about the demise of the monks at Tautra just really took me by surprise. And the lack of reaction I think was worse. What a terribly sad story.

I agree with your comments about the way that Kristin reframes her life as she goes along. I think the structure of the books helps in this respect as it follows the three key stages of Kristin's life: childhood, wife/mother, end of life and you can see how these separate stages affect her perception of both herself and the people around her.

It also struck me towards the end how Naakkve mirrors for Kristin her relationship with her father. As Kristin caused both love and concern for her father in her choices which were not in line with his choices for her, so Naakkve took a path which had not been Kristin's idea of a path for him. Both made a commitment, as they saw it, in the eyes of God which directly opposed the choices they knew their most beloved parent would have chosen for them. And both suffered for their choices, and their parents had to stand by remotely and accept that suffering. I had the feeling of 'what comes around goes around' and I think Kristin learned from the experience, eventually.

All in all, I found Kristin Lavransdatter an excellent book. I am surprised it is not so well known or widely read because the quality is undeniable. I felt thoroughly drawn in to the simple lives of the characters, their worries and concerns, their interrelationships and I think Undset was quite merciless in presenting the characters, especially Kristin, as flawed and human and struggling and yet finding joy and strength in each other. In the end I found it a very humanising and uplifting novel.

One to read again.

[rootinghog]

Absolutely. The sudden, almost parenthetical, deaths of a couple of main characters near the end, along with Kristin's spiritual epiphany on the beach in the last few pages, were some of the most moving and evocative depictions of death I've ever read. And I can say that, two weeks out, the book has stayed with me in a very good way-- Kristin, Erlend, and Simon seem to have rooted themselves in my consciousness, and continue to pop up from time to time (I just finished Thomas Merton's The Seven Storey Mountain, a "spiritual autobiography" about his conversion to the Catholic faith and entrance into a Trappist Monastery, and the themes of redemption and submission often brought KL to mind).

In the end, I agree-- an essential psychological/family saga. Thanks for sharing!