Are You a Vegetarian?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

So, are you?

[OrphanPip]

I don't consider myself a vegetarian, I just try to limit my consumption of red meat for health reasons. Too much of it is really bad for you. Shouldn't eat it more than once a week if at all.

[stlukesguild]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7233/7332758696_9ae42d3d31_z.jpg

:drool5::drool5::drool5::drool5::drool5:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I've heard the opposite many times over--not that it isn't bad for you to eat it all the time, just that it isn't bad in moderation. In any case, I'll take my chances. Steak is the best.

[OrphanPip]

Red meat is unfortunately closely associated with colon and stomach cancer. Not to mention the side issues with the fat and cholesterol.

However, anything in moderation won't do you too much harm. I'm not much of a health nut anyway, I eat plenty that is bad for me, beef is one of the easier ones to avoid because it also happens to be a more expensive alternative haha.

[iamnobody]

I'n not a vegetarian, but I rarely eat beef or pork. I eat a lot of fish and, not as often, chicken.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Red meat is unfortunately closely associated with colon and stomach cancer. Not to mention the side issues with the fat and cholesterol.

That's weird. I wonder why?

[OrphanPip]

That's weird. I wonder why?

They're not exactly sure, it might be the high amount of haemoglobin compared to other meats, which is converted to some carcinogenic compounds by bacteria in your gut.

Another widely speculated mechanism is the production of carcinogens that charring meat causes, but this wouldn't be limited to red meat only.

[Varenne Rodin]

I'm a vegetarian. I don't want to eat the flesh of the dead. I don't drink cow milk either. That idea is as disgusting to me as the idea of sucking on a llama's tit. It's tough to escape all dairy all the time, though.

I don't eat eggs or fish either. :)

[JuniperWoolf]

I like red meat and don't feel guilty eating it, but I do restrict my meat diet in one way: I prefer to eat what my dad and brother kill. They usually each take out an animal every year, usually my brother will get a little deer and my dad will get a nice big elk or moose, and they get sausages and steaks and roasts enough to last until next hunting season. Unfortunately, this year NONE of my dad's hunting party got a tag for moose or elk. You have no idea how rare that is, the hunting party consists of about eight guys and usually at least three get a tag, it's never happened every year since before I was born where none of them have. So, we don't have enough wild meat this year and we're going to have to eat that grocery store crap. No idea about the animal, what it looked like, or what it ate, or how strong it was, or who killed it and handled it, nothing. It's weird. Cow for me is like industrial grown wild meat substitute, just not as good as the real thing.

I eat meat about once/week on average. I prefer pasta and rice. I eat pasta and rice every day, I feel light-headed and slow and start craving it if I go a few days without it, whereas I think I could go months without eating meat before I start to really crave it.

I don't like eating white meat, first of all because I don't really enjoy it and secondly because I just-so-happen to have an affinity for most white meat animals. My favorite movie growing up was Babe, I watched it about two hundred times. I don't like eating chickens either. Their meat is weird, it's strings and parts of it is grey or dark brown. It just doesn't seem like I should be eating it. Furthermore, I effing love chickens, they're adoranble, especially when they wear their sweaters:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=876&pictureid=8670

*coo* How could I eat that sweet, dumb, innocent, helpless face? Look at its little fluffy bottom!

I'll eat turkey though. One big puffed-up black screaming monster attacked me at a farm when I was five, so **** turkeys.

[Revolte]

Vegetarian yes, vegan no.

I would go vegan, but, I like cheese.

I would eat human cheese too, why not? It makes more sense.

[Lokasenna]

The glorious steak I had for dinner last night is answer enough. Practically everything I cook has some meat in it somewhere - simply couldn't do without the stuff.

Also, human cheese? Ewww... I'll stick to the Brie and other civilised milk-based products...

[Revolte]

I dunno, it sounds kind of sexy to me.

[Alexander III]

I am one of those tragic people, who would love to become a vegetarian, yet I have the willpower of a chicken, and so I can't.

[Buckthorn]

I'm Vegan, but don't really want to argue with people on the forum about it if thats OK:smile5:, I do enough of that with friends and family

[The Dilettante]

I was, but this Chinese family has moved in with me and they feel it is their duty to cook for me, meat and all. I of course cannot refuse lest I offend them. They have a tendency to take things personally.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I am one of those tragic people, who would love to become a vegetarian, yet I have the willpower of a chicken, and so I can't.

Same here. Being a liberal in so many ways, being a vegetarian would be a good fit for me. Plus, I live in an area where deer hunting is absolutely huge, but I can't stand it--I could never kill an animal like that. I feel guilty when I kill a fly. But meat tastes so good. I'm a hypocrite like that.

[Helga]

I'm a vegetarian have been for 11 years. I do eat dairy products and free range eggs, I often think about going vegan but I love blue cheese.

I don't eat meat because I don't want to eat animals but I don't care what anybody else does and I wouldn't dream of lecturing anyone about it.

[Paulclem]

There's a category missing - those who eat fish but no meat. Many people assume that vegetarians eat fish, though I can't understand what is vegetarian about it.

I was looking at St Luke's picture of a rare steak. After 21 years as a veggie, it affects your perception of meat. It no longer looks appetising - as it clearly does to meat eaters - but rather revolting. (I'm not having a go at St Luke's or meat eaters - just pointing it out).

My attitude has changed from when I ate meat, though I couldn't pinpoint a time. I realised this about ten years ago, when I inadvertently popped a meat burger into my mouth thinking it was a veggie one, (we do cook meat for visitors). I spat it out in disgust, and was very surprised at myself. I have a strong constitution, and I am not easily disturbed in that way. No-one was with me when I did this, (luckily), - I think it was a period of post visitor scavenging.

I think we often assume that we can't change our habits or overcome our liking for something. It isn't true though. We can adapt over time if we want to.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I figured the fish eaters could use the third option, since it says "fish or fowl" rather than "fish and fowl." There's even a name for them--pescetarians. I know one. She says she eats fish because they don't have feelings. I can never tell of she's being serious or not.

As to Luke's picture, and as an avowed meat lover, that's a bit bloody for my taste. I like y steaks medium--pink in the middle, not bloody.

[Paulclem]

I figured the fish eaters could use the third option, since it says "fish or fowl" rather than "fish and fowl." There's even a name for them--pescetarians. I know one. She says she eats fish because they don't have feelings. I can never tell of she's being serious or not.

As to Luke's picture, and as an avowed meat lover, that's a bit bloody for my taste. I like y steaks medium--pink in the middle, not bloody.

I can see that.

Although I've heard it a lot on the telly, I don't know anyone who likes their meat rare like that. It might be where I'm from though, and I am certainly no gourmier.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Rare steak eaters are not unpopular here in the states. I know a few, and the majority order medium-rare, which is usually a bit too rare to me.

[Paulclem]

Rare steak eaters are not unpopular here in the states. I know a few, and the majority order medium-rare, which is usually a bit too rare to me.

I had steak rarely in the past, as opposed to rare. We were quite poor. Then I was spending all my cash on beer. Then I gave it up. :biggrin5:

[Neo_Sephiroth]

I'm not a vegetarian but I can do without meat if I had to. Question though! If you're eating tuna or fish can you still be considered a vegetarian?

[iamnobody]

I wouldn't say a person is vegetarian if they eat fish, or eggs, or any kind of animal.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think many vegetarians consider dairy okay because it doesn't involve killing an animal.

[iamnobody]

I agree, I think that level of prohibition is strickly for the vegans.

[Varenne Rodin]

Eggs, to me, are meat. It's fetus. F*** that sh**. I don't want to eat things that might have had a consciousness. That is too gruesome and insane to me. The very same as cannibalism. I won't scorn meat eaters, though. I just feel a repulsion for "meat" that I shall never overcome.

[MarkBastable]

I don't feel I've had a proper meal unless something has died. On the rare occasion that I eat a meal with no meat in it at all, I rather think that something should be killed anyway, just to stop them getting complacent.

[Helga]

Eggs, to me, are meat. It's fetus. F*** that sh**. I don't want to eat things that might have had a consciousness. That is too gruesome and insane to me. The very same as cannibalism. I won't scorn meat eaters, though. I just feel a repulsion for "meat" that I shall never overcome.

I had a similar thought when I first became a vegetarian but there is no male with the hens, so there is no chance of life. They lay eggs everyday with no male around so I don't see that as a problem. BUT picking eggs is very popular on the ice, sneaking close to a nest when the mom is away and take eggs, now that is truly disgusting! they often have beaks and even lungs I just don't see the joy or good taste in that.

[TurquoiseSunset]

I had a similar thought when I first became a vegetarian but there is no male with the hens, so there is no chance of life. They lay eggs everyday with no male around so I don't see that as a problem.

Yup, super market eggs are unfertilized. So, not a fetus...just an egg.

[BookBeauty]

Vegetarian yes, vegan no.

I would go vegan, but, I like cheese.

I would eat human cheese too, why not? It makes more sense.

I'm vegan. I make my own cheese out of cashew nuts, nutritional yeast, lemon juice and some spices. It's better, and healthier, in my opinion, and all you need is a blender.

I'd hasten to add that I surprised myself by enjoying vegan mac n' cheese more than dairy. :P

[PoeticPassions]

I'm not a vegetarian. I really like seafood and I eat chicken at least a few times a week... but I'm not a big meat-eater/lover. I could probably do without meat... or at least be pescatarian or something. But I could never do without dairy or vegetables.

[Helga]

I'm vegan. I make my own cheese out of cashew nuts, nutritional yeast, lemon juice and some spices. It's better, and healthier, in my opinion, and all you need is a blender.
:P

you've gotta give me that recipe!!!

[stlukesguild]

As to Luke's picture, and as an avowed meat lover, that's a bit bloody for my taste. I like y steaks medium--pink in the middle, not bloody.

That's not steak... that's prime rib... medium-rare. As my wife says, it's gotta still be "mooing"!:nod::drool5:

[stlukesguild]

I don't feel I've had a proper meal unless something has died. On the rare occasion that I eat a meal with no meat in it at all, I rather think that something should be killed anyway, just to stop them getting complacent.

:thumbsup::banana:

[Babyguile]

I think I've been a vegetarian for seven years now. I'm quite vocal about it too. The biggest gripe I have is people who eat meat every day. Some people even eat meat with every meal. It is totally irresponsible consumerism. But it's like talking to a break wall: otherwise intelligent people seem to cling to their steaks as if it were a child.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think I've been a vegetarian for seven years now. I'm quite vocal about it too.

So you're one of those annoying, soap-box standing, finger waving, ivory tower occupying people who like to lecture those who eat what their bodies were designed to consume? I'm soooooo surprised.

[Paulclem]

I think I've been a vegetarian for seven years now. I'm quite vocal about it too. The biggest gripe I have is people who eat meat every day. Some people even eat meat with every meal. It is totally irresponsible consumerism. But it's like talking to a break wall: otherwise intelligent people seem to cling to their steaks as if it were a child.

I'm a veggie too, but I've found it best not to make an issue of it. There's no point, and there never was. If someone chooses to eat meat, that's their choice, and says nothing about their motivations which might be, for taste, cultural, part of a perceived culture, tradition, lack of an alternative - (Tibet), religious, health, or for their livelihood. Lots of those are very powerful motivators that are not going to change in an internet argument, or in a face to face argument.

The best policy is tolerance. There are plenty of good reasons to be a veggie - including health, and a simplistic morality, (I say simplistic because as a personal choice its fine, but as soon as you contemplate a societywide imposition, then the welfare of animals becomes an issue as there's no need to invest any care into them by the owners).

No-one ever turned an argument like this by soap boxing, but a better policy is cool argument, toleration and example. The onus is on veggies, as some of the typical reactions are to assert carnivorousness, (like posting pictures of meat and saying what they had for lunch). They are basically saying there's no argument, and they are right in a sense, because assertions about vegetarianism challenge a personal habit which is not going to change without a sea change of attitudes about culture, religion, health etc etc in people. What I'm saying is vegetarianism is about something other than what we eat.

Anyway, there are always Veggie groups to promote vegetarian issues at a more global level.

[Helga]

I agree with Paul, vegetarianism is a lot more than what we put in our mouth, it's a way of life and it is to a certain degree what we believe in. I was once very vocal about it or tried to get it into conversations somehow but people believe what they want to and I don't think I can change someones mind.

I don'r have meat in the house but my son eats it at school and at his dads house, I hope he will make the decision I made when he grows older but if he doesn't that's his business. I don't teach him about a certain religion either.

I don't want people to lecture me on what they think is right and wrong so I don't do it to them.

[iamnobody]

I'm vegan. I make my own cheese out of cashew nuts, nutritional yeast, lemon juice and some spices. It's better, and healthier, in my opinion, and all you need is a blender.

I'd hasten to add that I surprised myself by enjoying vegan mac n' cheese more than dairy. :P

You should post the full recipe. I'd love to try it.

[Sancho]

Me too.

I’m somewhat of a reluctant vegetarian. 12 years ago I went into anaphylactic shock about six hours after eating a big ole prime rib. I had hives head to toe, couldn’t breathe, had hot-and-cold sweats. My hair hurt. Turns out it was a result of a tick bite (I’m a hiker). They call it Alpha-Galactose reaction. My body attacks the sugars in red meat as if it were an invasive virus. There’s no cure.

Who cares, I say. Life is better without eating the carcass of something that used to have a face.

[Varenne Rodin]

Fertilized or not, eggs contain goo from some kind of female body. If someone told me they were going to scramble human ambiotic fluid in a pan and try to feed it to me, I would have the same reaction.

[Sancho]

Yuk. Go ahead and scratch off Country Scramble from my list.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Eggs are good. I like them very much.

[Paulclem]

Fertilized or not, eggs contain goo from some kind of female body. If someone told me they were going to scramble human ambiotic fluid in a pan and try to feed it to me, I would have the same reaction.


If chickens are kept for their eggs, then there's co-operation between the farmer and the animal where it can be looked after, whilst providing something in return. I think that's a better situation than kept for their meat.

Of course that assumes that the eggs are free range, and that's down to consumer spending power.

At least eggs are non-sentient, whatever the description. I think killing something first is worse than a co-operative relationship.

[TurquoiseSunset]

I eat some form of meat or chicken with most meals, even if it's only bacon bits, but I eat chicken more than meat usually. I think I could easily live without meat, in favour of being a pescatarian. That being said, if I had to be a vegetarian it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Going vegan is out of the question; I NEVER want to be without dairy.

Also, I would rather go without than buy something other than free range eggs. And those over sized jumbo eggs are out of the question too...I've heard horror stories. I buy free range chicken and milk too, if possible, but free range meat is just too expensive here.

[Annamariah]

I could never be a vegan. If I had to, I'd probably starve to death with all my allergies. I mean, what would I be eating then? Just rice? I'm allergic to most fruit and vegetables, grains, nuts, seeds and soy.

I'm actually allergic to dairy products too, but not very much, so I still use them. If I did not, the allergy would only get worse, and without dairy products my already very limited diet would become extremely limited.

What I eat is mosty eggs, chicken, turkey, rice and dairy. I also eat red meat and fish, but not so often, even though I like them. Eggs and chicken are cheap, so that's what I usually buy.

[Paulclem]

There's not much you can do about that. Veggies are lucky to have the choice.

[JuniperWoolf]

Although I've heard it a lot on the telly, I don't know anyone who likes their meat rare like that. It might be where I'm from though, and I am certainly no gourmier.

I used to, back in the days when I relied on my parents for food and didn't get a choice in what would be served for dinner I'd always ask for my beef steaks rare, and I'd likely order a beef steak rare even today if I ever wanted one (when I eat meat nowadays, I usually choose shellfish because like I said, I don't have access to my preferred red meat this season, and also scallops are delicious). Cow blood doesn't taste like much, so it takes on the spices and makes a great sauce. I'm the kind of person who licks their plate too, so I remember lapping up the leftover blood or sopping it up with bread. My brother is the same way, it used to disgust my mother whose family is from the maritimes. :rolleyes: They'll suck the brain right out of a lobster, but red meat disgusts them for some reason. Wild blood tastes quite strong, so I prefer that kind of steak medium well.


Fertilized or not, eggs contain goo from some kind of female body. If someone told me they were going to scramble human ambiotic fluid in a pan and try to feed it to me, I would have the same reaction.

Yeah, it's more similar to human amnionic fluid than it is to a human foetus. You've got a little haploid cell in there smaller than a pinprick, and that's the actual "egg" of the chicken, the part that would divide and become a chick eventually if it were to be fertalized. As for the rest of it, the white of the egg is like it's amnionic fluid and the yolk is just the yolk. Human beings develop yolks to nourish their own foetus too, they just develop it after the foetus is already in there. It's even yellow.

Surprisingly, it's really common to find people who think that the yolk is a little liquified chick, like because chicks have yellow feathers they turn into yellow goo when they die. My friend Steve used to think that too.

[TurquoiseSunset]

This reminds me that I've read recently that it's becoming a new health trend to eat one's placenta (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2120771/As-January-Jones-admits-eating-placenta-experts-reveal-health-benefits-cooking-instructions.html) after giving birth. I think it's disgusting and pointless. However, if someone want's to do it, it's up to them. :sick:

[JuniperWoolf]

Haha, I know that in some countries eating the placenta is what they have to do to keep the baby and the mother alive. The mother is already undernourished, she's lost a ton of blood, and now she needs to produce milk. Placenta is the most nutritious meat in existance I'm told. You don't need to eat the placenta in a country where you could just buy iron tablets or something, but I always figured that it would be a New Age trend, among the same women who propose having an orgasm (http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Orgasmic_Childbirth) on your baby's head while giving birth. It's all a part of that whole reclamation thing.

[TurquoiseSunset]

Haha, I know that in some countries eating the placenta is the only option for saving the life of both the baby and the mother. The mother is already starving, she's lost a ton of blood, and now she needs to produce milk. Placenta is the most nutritious meat in existance I'm told. You don't need to eat the placenta in a country where you could just buy iron tablets or something, but I always figured that it would be a New Age trend, among the same women who propose having an orgasm (http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Orgasmic_Childbirth) on your baby's head while giving birth.

If it's to prevent starvation, then I'm for it...it's understandable. It's the rest I wonder about.

As for orgasmic childbirth... :sosp:

[Darcy88]

No. I eat several different meats a day. I need the protein. I also eat plenty of vegetable protein, but its just that much easier when you can eat meat. Tastier too.

[Hawkman]

Friends, enemies and forumites, lend me your eyes. Peruse, if you will, these lines, that I may educate you to the greatest evil in the land. Know this, the vegetarian is the most heartless, degenerate and cowardly predator on the planet. Rather than give his prey a sporting chance he hunts only the sitting duck (metaphorically speaking).

The carnivore is an honest predator, he only eats what he can kill, and if his quarry escapes him, he must go without. Now compare the villainy of the vegetarian whose diet consists of things that, by their very nature, are rooted to the spot. The plants that they consume are given neither chance nor choice. They are harvested mechanically by the vegetarian’s machines, which either rip them from the nourishing earth or cut them down in their prime. Their seeds are ground to dust for making bread or genetically modified to feed more vegetarians.

I call upon all right thinking carnivores to rise up! Help me crush this dastardly menace to the flora of our mother earth. We shall give them a sporting chance, which is more than they ever gave the green growing things. We will hunt them down with bows and arrows, we will hunt them down with high-powered rifles and telescopic sights, and we will herd them in droves towards dead-fall traps with sharp iron spikes in their bases. With fewer vegetarians competing with edible herbivores for the limited resources of our planet, there will be more room for the rest of us and more meat to go round to feed us all.

Arm your selves, my brothers and sisters of the sword. Take up the struggle for freedom against the faddy hypocrites who blight our lives. Slaughter without mercy all the Vegans and Fruitarians with their distorted world-view and insane ideas. Then go out and buy a Humvee. That way you can put more CO2 into the atmosphere to feed the plants.

[Buckthorn]

Friends, enemies and forumites, lend me your eyes. Peruse, if you will, these lines, that I may educate you to the greatest evil in the land. Know this, the vegetarian is the most heartless, degenerate and cowardly predator on the planet. Rather than give his prey a sporting chance he hunts only the sitting duck (metaphorically speaking).

The carnivore is an honest predator, he only eats what he can kill, and if his quarry escapes him, he must go without. Now compare the villainy of the vegetarian whose diet consists of things that, by their very nature, are rooted to the spot. The plants that they consume are given neither chance nor choice. They are harvested mechanically by the vegetarian’s machines, which either rip them from the nourishing earth or cut them down in their prime. Their seeds are ground to dust for making bread or genetically modified to feed more vegetarians.

I call upon all right thinking carnivores to rise up! Help me crush this dastardly menace to the flora of our mother earth. We shall give them a sporting chance, which is more than they ever gave the green growing things. We will hunt them down with bows and arrows, we will hunt them down with high-powered rifles and telescopic sights, and we will herd them in droves towards dead-fall traps with sharp iron spikes in their bases. With fewer vegetarians competing with edible herbivores for the limited resources of our planet, there will be more room for the rest of us and more meat to go round to feed us all.

Arm your selves, my brothers and sisters of the sword. Take up the struggle for freedom against the faddy hypocrites who blight our lives. Slaughter without mercy all the Vegans and Fruitarians with their distorted world-view and insane ideas. Then go out and buy a Humvee. That way you can put more CO2 into the atmosphere to feed the plants.

I am seriously considering leaving this forum now.

[Babyguile]

I am seriously considering leaving this forum now.

A sense of humour?


No. I eat several different meats a day. I need the protein. I also eat plenty of vegetable protein, but its just that much easier when you can eat meat. Tastier too.

Don't mind me prodding you: do you have a special protein requirment, and what vegetable protein sources do you eat?

[Buckthorn]

A sense of humour?

Thanks, you're probably right, I tend to take things far too seriously:goof::).

[BookBeauty]

A couple of people were interested in my vegan cheese. Here is my favourite recipe.

Note: You really should find nutritional yeast for this recipe. It should be at your local health food store. It's kick butt awesome food, nutritionally and tastefully.

Vegan Cheese Sauce (From Detoxinista.com)
inspired by Oh She Glows and Everyday Raw

Ingredients:

1 1/2 cups raw cashews
3 T. fresh lemon juice
3/4 cup water
1 1/2 tsp. sea salt
1/4 cup nutritional yeast
1/2 tsp. chili powder
1/2 clove garlic
pinch of turmeric
pinch of cayenne pepper
1/2 tsp. mustard (dijon or yellow. I used dijon.)

Just toss it all in a blender, blend, and pop it into a big jar.

I also added dill, some chives, half a teaspoon of miso and a bit of extra garlic. Also a tiny bit of extra mustard. But the original recipe is awesome, and is supposed to be used for mac n' cheese. I also use it as a spread, and for cheese on my pizza. It's creamy and tasty. It does the job good.

If you're curious about more vegan cheeses, just put in google: ''Vegan cheese recipe''. You'll get tons of hits. In fact, you'll find lots of veganized recipes on the internet. Like your favourite chocolate bars, even. The internet knows everything.

You can even make your own nut milk, out of any kind of nut, if you have a good quality blender.

[Helga]

Ingredients:

1 1/2 cups raw cashews
3 T. fresh lemon juice
3/4 cup water
1 1/2 tsp. sea salt
1/4 cup nutritional yeast
1/2 tsp. chili powder
1/2 clove garlic
pinch of turmeric
pinch of cayenne pepper
1/2 tsp. mustard (dijon or yellow. I used dijon.)

Just toss it all in a blender, blend, and pop it into a big jar.



Ohh this sounds so good, I have to try it, and so easy to do! Now that is a big plus in my book!!!

Thanks!

[BienvenuJDC]

Fertilized or not, eggs contain goo from some kind of female body. If someone told me they were going to scramble human ambiotic fluid in a pan and try to feed it to me, I would have the same reaction.

Yes, and honey is bee vomit!
http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/3/38/3831200d_beevomit2.jpeg

And alcohol is yeast pee...
http://img.printfection.com/1/3083/9085206/xYCrA.jpg

[JuniperWoolf]

True true, and plants contain corpse particles.

[BookBeauty]

Lol, I'm not squeamish in any way. I love learning this stuff. I'd talk about it over dinner, if only people wouldn't get fussy about eating and having interesting discussions. :P

My main reason for going vegan was for health, then animals and the environment.

It's a bit too easy to get obsessed though, and there really has to be a line drawn. Some people are puritans that throw paint on people and try to 'protect' pets from their owners. By attacking them in airports. I think that's missing the entire point.

The point is to inform people, if they want to learn, and let them make a choice based on the information. I'm an information junkie though, so it's hard for me to imagine why anyone wouldn't want to know about everything.

I'm not a preacher, and never will be. I don't really care enough to do so. I know what I like for me, and what I've decided is healthy isn't going to be the same for other people. I've got a vision of a healthy, sustainable future. Animal protein could be involved... Sure. They're already scientifically growing steaks in jars. :P

[Helga]

just look at Star Trek, they eat food from replicators and it has all the nutrients and protein you need in whatever form and taste you want. You could eat steak every day and still be vegan up there.

[TheBaron]

"Yeah I'm a vegetarian. Well I'm not hardcore, you know, well, I eat a lot of meat".

Whoever can tell me (without Google) who said that, gets a shiny English pound.

[MarkBastable]

"Yeah I'm a vegetarian. Well I'm not hardcore, you know, well, I eat a lot of meat".

Whoever can tell me (without Google) who said that, gets a shiny English pound.

I'd love it to be Morrissey.

[TheBaron]

I'd love it to be Morrissey.

It's not, but a very good guess....

[MarkBastable]

McCartney?

[Revolte]

I'm all for eggs too. Though I rarely cook with them. Not everyone is the same, though. Different people have different physical needs. And I'm sad now 'cause I dunno where I was going with this.

Ooops, I almost forgot.


HAHHAHAHAHA haaaaa HAHAHHAHA aahhh, haha.

[Madhuri]

Maybe you wanted to go here (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39014&page=8&highlight=drunken+sincerity) but landed in this thread instead. :p :smilewinkgrin:

[Paulclem]

True true, and plants contain corpse particles.

Very true. There are measures such as allowed insect parts per amount of rice, pulses etc. I read somewhere that they reckon a veggie eats about a pound of insect parts per year. Well - got to get the protein from somewhere.
I suppose it'll just be like meat eaters consuming parasites in meat.

[Sancho]

"Yeah I'm a vegetarian. Well I'm not hardcore, you know, well, I eat a lot of meat".

Whoever can tell me (without Google) who said that, gets a shiny English pound.

John Cleese?

[JuniperWoolf]

Very true. There are measures such as allowed insect parts per amount of rice, pulses etc. I read somewhere that they reckon a veggie eats about a pound of insect parts per year. Well - got to get the protein from somewhere.
I suppose it'll just be like meat eaters consuming parasites in meat.

Yeah, and the soil that plants grow in doesn't just stay soil - it's black because of carbon, most of which comes from decomposed carbon-based life forms. Soil is made of decomposed plants, animals, bugs, &c. (and waste too, of course), that's where the nutrients in nutrient-rich soil comes from, and little pieces of former-corpse aka. soil gets absorbed into the plant. With all of the things that have lived and died over the last 600 million years, everything you eat has, at one point, been a molecule making up a dead animal, and even dead humans. We too turn into dirt and plant/insect faeces (also dirt) when we die. I bet we eat stuff that used to be a part of other humans fairly often, there have been a lot of humans. That's why I don't like picking mushrooms or raspberries from anywhere near graveyards.

[BookBeauty]

Yeah, and the soil that plants grow in doesn't just stay soil - it's black because of carbon, most of which comes from decomposed carbon-based life forms. Soil is made of decomposed plants, animals, bugs, &c. (and waste too, of course), that's where the nutrients in nutrient-rich soil comes from, and little pieces of former-corpse aka. soil gets absorbed into the plant. With all of the things that have lived and died over the last 600 million years, everything you eat has, at one point, been a molecule making up a dead animal, and even dead humans. We too turn into dirt and plant/insect faeces (also dirt) when we die. I bet we eat stuff that used to be a part of other humans fairly often, there have been a lot of humans. That's why I don't like picking mushrooms or raspberries from anywhere near graveyards.

Whoa, it's like the Lion King all over again.

You know, when Mufasa is teaching Simba about the circle of life.

''You see Simba, when we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass.. And so, we are all connected, in the great. circle. of life.''

[Paulclem]

Yeah, and the soil that plants grow in doesn't just stay soil - it's black because of carbon, most of which comes from decomposed carbon-based life forms. Soil is made of decomposed plants, animals, bugs, &c. (and waste too, of course), that's where the nutrients in nutrient-rich soil comes from, and little pieces of former-corpse aka. soil gets absorbed into the plant. With all of the things that have lived and died over the last 600 million years, everything you eat has, at one point, been a molecule making up a dead animal, and even dead humans. We too turn into dirt and plant/insect faeces (also dirt) when we die. I bet we eat stuff that used to be a part of other humans fairly often, there have been a lot of humans. That's why I don't like picking mushrooms or raspberries from anywhere near graveyards.

Aye - life is an imperfect panorama. Interestingly, I was reading Bill Bryson on about houses, and he was talking to a historian who lived in his village. Bill commented on how the church seemed to have sunk, but the historian corrected him ad said it was the effect of a thousand years of bodies in the graveyard plumpng up the soil. Fascinating stuff.

[Helga]

Whoa, it's like the Lion King all over again.

You know, when Mufasa is teaching Simba about the circle of life.

''You see Simba, when we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass.. And so, we are all connected, in the great. circle. of life.''

that's what I tell my son when he asks what happens when we die...

I am curious about the married vegetarians here, are your partners vegetarians too?

that is something I think about after living with a man who eats meat for five years, I don't know if I can do that again but on the ice there are fewer vegetarians than in most countries...

[Paulclem]

My wife is a veggie and has been since she was 16. She would have cooked me meat if i had been reluctant to change, but I was already in the veggie camp when we got together.

We have brought the kids up as veggie too, making it clear that they can make their own choices when they are adults. Both still want to be veggie.

[Helga]

My wife is a veggie and has been since she was 16. She would have cooked me meat if i had been reluctant to change, but I was already in the veggie camp when we got together.

We have brought the kids up as veggie too, making it clear that they can make their own choices when they are adults. Both still want to be veggie.

that is pretty cool, I only cook vegetarian food but my boy eats everything at school and at his dads house. I feel like I can't force my views on him when his dad has totally different opinions on things. In return he doesn't teach him about a certain religion cause he knows I don't want that.

I think this veggie couple thing is kinda important , cause like you said before being a vegetarian is more than what you eat, it's a way of life and I think it would be better if your partner had similar views. I have tried being with someone who doesn't and now I think it would be good to be with someone does.

[TheBaron]

John Cleese?

Dylan Moran, but John Cleese is a personal favourite of mine. :cheers2:

[YesNo]

I generally find vegetarian food tastier. My wife likes to use a little meat occasionally which is fine with me. It is not worth an argument. The thought of how licking blood and grease off one's plate must taste, however, is enough to make me prefer beans.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Friends, enemies and forumites, lend me your eyes. Peruse, if you will, these lines, that I may educate you to the greatest evil in the land. Know this, the vegetarian is the most heartless, degenerate and cowardly predator on the planet. Rather than give his prey a sporting chance he hunts only the sitting duck (metaphorically speaking).

The carnivore is an honest predator, he only eats what he can kill, and if his quarry escapes him, he must go without. Now compare the villainy of the vegetarian whose diet consists of things that, by their very nature, are rooted to the spot. The plants that they consume are given neither chance nor choice. They are harvested mechanically by the vegetarian’s machines, which either rip them from the nourishing earth or cut them down in their prime. Their seeds are ground to dust for making bread or genetically modified to feed more vegetarians.

I call upon all right thinking carnivores to rise up! Help me crush this dastardly menace to the flora of our mother earth. We shall give them a sporting chance, which is more than they ever gave the green growing things. We will hunt them down with bows and arrows, we will hunt them down with high-powered rifles and telescopic sights, and we will herd them in droves towards dead-fall traps with sharp iron spikes in their bases. With fewer vegetarians competing with edible herbivores for the limited resources of our planet, there will be more room for the rest of us and more meat to go round to feed us all.

Arm your selves, my brothers and sisters of the sword. Take up the struggle for freedom against the faddy hypocrites who blight our lives. Slaughter without mercy all the Vegans and Fruitarians with their distorted world-view and insane ideas. Then go out and buy a Humvee. That way you can put more CO2 into the atmosphere to feed the plants.

Awesome post, Hawk. Had me laughing.

It reminds me of a shirt I saw that said, "How many plants had to die for your damn salad?"


Haha, I know that in some countries eating the placenta is what they have to do to keep the baby and the mother alive. The mother is already undernourished, she's lost a ton of blood, and now she needs to produce milk. Placenta is the most nutritious meat in existance I'm told. You don't need to eat the placenta in a country where you could just buy iron tablets or something, but I always figured that it would be a New Age trend, among the same women who propose having an orgasm (http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Orgasmic_Childbirth) on your baby's head while giving birth. It's all a part of that whole reclamation thing.

I think just taking the epidural would be much simpler.

[Sancho]

Here’s a happy thing about a veggie diet: It shoots right through me. I consider it a high-speed/low-drag meal. Animal flesh, by contrast, tends to hang around all up in there, and putrefy for a couple of weeks before exiting with an inglorious plop.

TMI?

[Paulclem]

Here’s a happy thing about a veggie diet: It shoots right through me. I consider it a high-speed/low-drag meal. Animal flesh, by contrast, tends to hang around all up in there, and putrefy for a couple of weeks before exiting with an inglorious plop.

TMI?

Yes - constipation is never a problem.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I prefer a bit of constipation and solid stool than crapping soft-serve multiple times a day.

[Buckthorn]

I find there are still certain foods that can cause it (including peanut butter) and not drinking enough water.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Cheese has always had a reputation of being able to "bind" one up. Personally, I only ever get constipated if my diet suddenly changes radically (though usually the opposite happens) or my routine changes drastically, like going on vacation. I'm not as bad as my mom,mtgough. Where I might go a full day without crapping, which is unusual for me, my mom can go for days. I don't know how--it see,s a physical impossibility.

Look at what you turned this into, Sancho. Are you proud of yourself? (I would be.)

[cacian]

no I am not but I did try it once for about a year and then thought to myself it is not natural for me anyway to not eat a wide variety of food including meat poultry and fish as god intended.
Oh one more I could not eat veal though I draw the line with certain food such as wild animals and wild fish. I would not touch them.

[Sancho]

...Look at what you turned this into, Sancho. Are you proud of yourself? (I would be.)

Ain’t I a stinkah.
(Bugs was a vegetarian, carrots mostly)

Here’s another good thing about a veggie diet: lots of fiber. And you know what fiber does to your plumbing. And, c’mon people, deep down we all like to fart. Also I think James Joyce was on to something when early on in Ulysses, Bloom is sitting in his outhouse, sort of enjoying his own stink. And that’s another good thing about a veggie diet – you don’t stink so badly.

[PoeticPassions]

Ain’t I a stinkah.
(Bugs was a vegetarian, carrots mostly)

Here’s another good thing about a veggie diet: lots of fiber. And you know what fiber does to your plumbing. And, c’mon people, deep down we all like to fart. Also I think James Joyce was on to something when early on in Ulysses, Bloom is sitting in his outhouse, sort of enjoying his own stink. And that’s another good thing about a veggie diet – you don’t stink so badly.

There is another benefit to a veggie diet for men, well and women too I suppose... not that I have evidence, other than personal experience, to back this up... hold on, everyone, I'll try to dig up some article on this...

[Dodo25]

I answered "Yes. I'm hardcore. I refuse to eat anything that comes from any animal in any way." because it's closest to my stance, but it's not entirely accurate. For instance, I wouldn't mind eating animals that are highly unlikely to be sentient (e.g. mussels), and I wouldn't mind eating animal products in situations where me eating it does not contribute to animal suffering. If an animal were perfectly happy during its life and killing completely painlessly, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

How would one go about determining if an animal was happy during its life?

[Calidore]

How would one go about determining if an animal was happy during its life?

Ask before you kill it.

[JuniperWoolf]

Check to see if it's smiling first.

[Scheherazade]

Reminded me of this:

http://www.traileraddict.com/clip/shark-tale/shrimp

[Dodo25]

How would one go about determining if an animal was happy during its life?

If it's given the same care a good mother would give to her baby. Without the hugging and physical contact, what I mean is that the animal doesn't have to undergo procedures where mothers would refuse them if done to their human toddlers. Transportation alone, as its commonly done even on the nicest farms, would be unacceptable from that point of view. I don't know any farms that would pass the test, and even if some did, there wouldn't be enough output to feed the world that way.

I'm starting to think that the only hope is cultured meat and animal products from the lab. Which is cheaper, better for the environment, healthier, and produced without cruelty. Yes it's "unnatural", but you know what, so are factory farms and product line mass killings.

[YesNo]

As far as removal of suffering goes, I think you would want to kill and then eat the ones who were not happy.

[Dodo25]

The problem with killing and eating the unhappy ones is that you generate demand that way. At least when we're talking about buying food that leads to that consequence. The producers will then just bring more unhappy beings into existence.

Vegans don't really save animals. They prevent them from coming into a miserable existence. And that's pretty great! You can't harm a non-existent being, and there's no obligation to bring into existence as many beings as possible. If there were, this would have very counterintuitive implications. (Namely, it would imply that you could fix a "wrong", e.g. a planet full of miserable beings, by creating a huge number of beings with a life barely worth living, as the surplus of happiness of this huge number of lives will at some point, if you make the number large enough, outweigh the suffering on the initial planet. But isn't that absurd? Wouldn't it be much better to just stop the suffering on the first planet?)

Don't we consider it irresponsible if parents living in a bad situation (addiction problems, no money, high school students themselves) have children, or several children? Even if we would consider the lives of those children "worth living", we'd think it bad to start a life where the prospects of happiness aren't very good. There's no obligation to create happiness, yet creating suffering is always bad.

Now, regarding the killing of a happy animal:
If the killing were wrong because it deprieves the animal of future happiness, then that would imply that future happiness is an intrinsic good, and it would become difficult to avoid the repugnant conclusion that we should bring as many happy beings into the world as possible.
You can hold that killing a happy animal is bad if you consider preferences, not hedonic states, to be what ultimately matters, and if you think the animal has some preferences that reach out into the future, and that would be violated if it was killed. That's the view Peter Singer advocates. In the most recent edition of Practical Ethics, he granted (some) future-related preferences even to chicken. I find Singer's view quite appealing, but ultimately, I don't think preferences matter. If I was killed painlessly in my sleep, I wouldn't be here anymore to mind. I don't think non-existence causes a problem that way. It doesn't really make much of a difference though, for most practical purposes.

[MarkBastable]

Douglas Adams solved this one in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1nxaQhsaaw).

[YesNo]

It seems that the ultimate solution from your perspective, Dodo25, is for life to cease entirely.

This reminds me of the movie Melancholia. In this movie there is a planet coming toward earth, about four times the diameter of earth, called Melancholia and earth gets swallowed up by it. The photography is great watching earth get closer and closer to Melancholia at the end and is a nice twist from the doomsday movies where a tiny asteroid does us in.

A so-called "psychic" in the movie says that she knows that life only exists on earth out of the entire universe. Since she guessed something right before, she's supposedly some kind of authority on everything. However, if life were an accident--a truly random event--I suspect she would be right. She's glad we're all going to die.

[Dodo25]

It seems that the ultimate solution from your perspective, Dodo25, is for life to cease entirely.

This reminds me of the movie Melancholia.

Yes. An equally good alternative would be to ensure that no being will ever be in severe suffering anymore.
I saw the movie, great photography indeed.

You can't really end up with non-counterintuitive conclusions when doing population ethics. Singer has an interesting view on this, he's against it yet he admits he's unsure about the issue: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/should-this-be-the-last-generation/

But let me emphasize again that different positions often come to the same practical conclusions, as it is certainly the case with veganism or something close to it. Also for all major non-consequentialist views.

[cafolini]

Douglas Adams solved this one in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1nxaQhsaaw).

An entirely possiblre choice as a matter of redemption.

[YesNo]

Yes. An equally good alternative would be to ensure that no being will ever be in severe suffering anymore.
I saw the movie, great photography indeed.

You can't really end up with non-counterintuitive conclusions when doing population ethics. Singer has an interesting view on this, he's against it yet he admits he's unsure about the issue: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/should-this-be-the-last-generation/

But let me emphasize again that different positions often come to the same practical conclusions, as it is certainly the case with veganism or something close to it. Also for all major non-consequentialist views.
Both the article by Singer and his comments about David Benatar remind me of extreme forms of asceticism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism

Asceticism requires an ethical theory justifying actions that many would view as self-abuse, whether physical or emotional. The ascetic is trying to achieve some good compatible with the ascetic's cultural or religious beliefs. I find it interesting that Zoroastrianism and modern Judaism reject asceticism, at least according to the article.

Here is a quote from the article about Judaism's rejection of asceticism:


Asceticism is rejected by modern day Judaism; it is considered contrary to God's wishes for the world. God intended the world to be enjoyed, and people be in good spirits when praying.

Although I am not Jewish, that sounds to me like healthy, good advice.

[Dodo25]

Both the article by Singer and his comments about David Benatar remind me of extreme forms of asceticism.


Sure, but the fact that an ethical view is "demanding" can't speak against it, at least not according to my unerstanding of ethics. Ethics shouldn't just work for Homo sapiens, but for any possible intelligent beings capable of making moral choices. For some beings, it might be very easy to do what's advocated here. An ethical theory does not have to say "do x, y, z exactly, or else you're a bad person". It can just say: "Doing x, y, z exactly will bring about the best possible world." Whether beings ought to be capable of actually doing that, or whether they should instead settle for more realistic goals, is a different question.

Getting back to the topic: A lot of people already consider vegetarianism "too demanding", even though most ethical theories imply it. Deontological views often imply it more strongly than utiltiarian ones, actually.

[YesNo]

Sure, but the fact that an ethical view is "demanding" can't speak against it

I don't trust an ethical view, whether deontological or consequential, that is demanding or ascetic. It hides an egotistical, false assumption that hard work should generate results. The results we expect don't always happen.

What one does ethically should come naturally. If it demands asceticism, especially the kind that Singer and Benatar propose in suggesting that we refuse to procreate to make ours the last generation, then there is something wrong with that ethics. It does not mean that we should try harder to be good. It means that that ethics itself is bad.


A lot of people already consider vegetarianism "too demanding", even though most ethical theories imply it. Deontological views often imply it more strongly than utiltiarian ones, actually.

I think vegetarianism is an aspect of our culture. Change the culture appropriately and you could get vegetarianism.

Suffering is often viewed as something to avoid, but suffering is important for growth. It forces us to evolve. I look at it more as a blessing.

[The Comedian]

I blogged about this once: I'm a generally 2/3s vegetarian. By guideline (not rule) I eat one serving of meat a day, usually at dinner.

And I don't snack.

So breakfast = veggie or nothing (usually nothing. I'm never hungry 'till 'bout noon anyway).

Lunch: cheese, nuts, veggies, fruit (some combination of those)

Dinner: meat, starch, veggie.

C

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Like my drink, I'll eat practically anything that's meant for consumption, even Limburger Cheese.

.

[Dodo25]

What one does ethically should come naturally. If it demands asceticism, especially the kind that Singer and Benatar propose in suggesting that we refuse to procreate to make ours the last generation, then there is something wrong with that ethics. It does not mean that we should try harder to be good. It means that that ethics itself is bad.

(I think Singer actually ends up denying that this should be the last generation.)

Why should the good come naturally? I can imagine that our (world)views on nature differ significantly. My view: Nature is the product of the blind, indifferent process of evolution, where only the copying success of genes matters, not individual well-being. We can't expect life to be all good, and we can't expect the good life to be all easy.

[YesNo]

(I think Singer actually ends up denying that this should be the last generation.)

Why should the good come naturally? I can imagine that our (world)views on nature differ significantly. My view: Nature is the product of the blind, indifferent process of evolution, where only the copying success of genes matters, not individual well-being. We can't expect life to be all good, and we can't expect the good life to be all easy.
Yes, I think you are right about Singer. It looks like it is Benatar who has gone off the deep end.

We probably have different worldviews, but it is asceticism that I disagree with. From your worldview, I don't see any ground on which you can claim this or that is "good". Eliminating suffering does seems to need no ground, but if that is all one relies on, then one is led to Benatar's rejection of life since suffering will never (thankfully) be completely eliminated.

I don't know whether the good should come naturally or not, I am just rejecting asceticism that implies that one needs to engage in some form of self-denial or self-abuse to make things good.