Intimacy

[Jack of Hearts]

delete

[Silas Thorne]

I feel that honesty in writing is not about being honest to who I am, really. I hardly know what I'm like anyway. There's a certain amount of intimacy you can share with someone in a piece of writing, but for the reader whether the intimacy is with the person writing, or with the imagined person writing, it is hard to tell. I think it doesn't really matter. I mean, I could write a poem about dancing with a black woman in a bar in New Orleans or Shanghai, based on a really strong dream I had. If the dream was strong enough, and I shared that, it would still be honest. If the lines come out of some sense of rhythm or strong feeling and I linked them with some real experiences I had, blurring the dream with the reality, it would still be honest, I guess. Honesty doesn't have to be about reality, but about an approximation with it. This approximation could arise from facts in your life, experiences, emotions, or the experiences of others deeply felt. Anyway, that's how I feel about things.

[Jack of Hearts]

I feel that honesty in writing is not about being honest to who I am, really. I hardly know what I'm like anyway. There's a certain amount of intimacy you can share with someone in a piece of writing, but for the reader whether the intimacy is with the person writing, or with the imagined person writing, it is hard to tell. I think it doesn't really matter. I mean, I could write a poem about dancing with a black woman in a bar in New Orleans or Shanghai, based on a really strong dream I had. If the dream was strong enough, and I shared that, it would still be honest. If the lines come out of some sense of rhythm or strong feeling and I linked them with some real experiences I had, blurring the dream with the reality, it would still be honest, I guess. Honesty doesn't have to be about reality, but about an approximation with it. This approximation could arise from facts in your life, experiences, emotions, or the experiences of others deeply felt. Anyway, that's how I feel about things.

Hi Silas,

It is agreed that factual honesty isn't always necessarily important in writing. We pretend sometimes. We even take new identities or new voices. But this reader would argue there'd better be emotional honest or we're in trouble here. Doesn't it seem this way?

Please don't misconstrue this post as suggesting that every creative work ought to be confessional. But when we adjust our worldview a little bit, isn't it? Those made up characters are a part of us. Those lines in the poem express something we thought or felt. And that seems to be tied up to something bigger than just sitting down and scribbling on a page (not that this poster is going to argue for a traditional interpretation of identity).






J

[Silas Thorne]

Hi Silas,

It is agreed that factual honesty isn't always necessarily important in writing. We pretend sometimes. We even take new identities or new voices. But this reader would argue there'd better be emotional honest or we're in trouble here. Doesn't it seem this way?

J

Yep, it sure does. Following the words that come from somewhere, looking for them somewhere along that road, you try to express what it is that visits you. But if you try to hide too much, what comes out is just mechanical. At least for me. It's good training sometimes, but it's not really what I'd consider a real poem.
If there's no sense of being true to the words that come, the feelings behind them, we might as well train computers to write poetry for us.

[MANICHAEAN]

Jack

Sorry, but I do not understand, (or should I say), I cannot relate to all this fear of intimacy and being vulnerable as expressed in your thread. Perhaps I was when I was younger but I honestly cannot remember being so.

In the case of women I like to think that I have always been upfront. What you see is what you get and I’m not going to pretend to be something I’m not. Or perhaps that’s more so as you get older.

With some races; Brits of a certain era and Japanese for example, there is this big fear of losing face. It is of course wrong to stereotype but with a lot of Americans, I have, if anything sometimes found them embarrassingly too open.

Jack has not been writing much lately, or as well! Welcome to the club, as I’ve dried up too and unlike yourself cannot get an inkling of the cause!

Women? Well, you either like them and are comfortable around them or you are not. That might come across as a bit simplistic, but it’s a fact. Women can sense instinctively if you are interested in them, whatever their age or station in life.

Men and friendship and openness? Normally it’s either a gut feeling in the beginning or can build up over an extended period with some of the most unlikely reprobates.

I could not possibly comment on Hills influence on you, except to say that if it opened up your emotive writing and the end result is good, then what the hell, go with it.

Finally, don’t get hung up with all this masculinity crisis mumbo jumbo or you will end up undecided whether to be like some jackass on the Oprah show pouring out his heart or what I believe is referred to as like “an uptight Brit with a stiff upper lip.”

Here endeth the lesson. Where shall I send my bill?

[Jack of Hearts]

Haha, thanks Dr. M. Will you take payments in the form of M&Ms?

Well, maybe it's just this reader's problem then? But you're absolutely right. Either of those extremes just plain suck. By no means was this reader implying a guy ought to be a whiney b*tch. Hopefully this wasn't in the reading... Jack of Hearts is running into the edges of his ability to use language, here. And hopefully people don't think this post is about women. This post is about the self, slightly bent through an artistic lens because look who posted it? Some guy who likes to try to write.

This poster likes to take lil' pot shots at hillwalker to try and goad him to post again, is all that can be said about that reference.

As for the masculinity crisis, this poster meets a lot of broken young men his age. There's so much anecdotal evidence that something has gone awry in this generation, it's hard not to be concerned.






J

[loe]

Intimacy without even using the first person perspective in writing and telling about oneself is nearly impossible. ;)
(There is already the distance between two different persons to overcome, when you also have to cope with a distance between you and you intimate relations can really become a hard job...)

But I can understand the fear of it. I am a rather distanced person myself - don't want to give others a "weapon" to hurt me... or something like that...

[Silas Thorne]

Anyway regarding your topic Jack, in poetry there are often things that cut you up, things that leave you open and brutalised. I think it's a good idea to work with these things, but who you choose to share with, and how you present these things, are always important things to think about.

[TurquoiseSunset]

I'm a woman and the idea of being truly vunerable scares the crap out of me... I feel your pain :)

[DocHeart]

The unwillingness to be open has stunted this reader emotionally, artistically and aesthetically. There's something beautiful about it, when it's done right. And now he's pushing himself in that way, to be more open and undefended, and boy does it suck lol. It's scary and it feels just plain bad- like taking your medicine after years of ignoring a problem.




Dear Jack,

I dare say that I know where you're coming from. I had the same thoughts recently, fifteen years later in life than you did. It might be too late for me -- that remains to be seen -- but you're certainly on the right track. Searching inside yourself is a good thing, even if you search in the wrong places at first. Plato said so.

However, let me get this straight: what are these "defenses" we're talking about, the ones you've now decided to try to live without? What were they protecting you from up to now?

You mention that they hindered your creativity. How?

Did they make you write "for others", always bearing their sensitivities in mind, so that they would be more likely to offer positive reviews? I did this for a long time. I wrote for specific women. While writing, I tried to second-guess what their reactions would be while reading. Those weren't truthful writings, they were artificial to the point of being plastic.

Then, of course, there's writing "for audiences". I wrote leftist ideology polemics for the university paper, I wrote technical manuals for software testers, I wrote BDSM fiction for a forum of "literary eroticists" (sic), and I wrote short dialogues between toy dinosaurs and blond rosey-cheeked toddlers for English language teaching publications. None of this stuff made me feel good while I was writing it. I'm not saying that being sensitive to your readers' needs is a bad thing; I'm just saying that being sensitive to a specific group's needs at the expense of your own sensitivities stifles your creativity. That is how I understand your point about being open while being creative. It's a huge step to make.

Or is it, perhaps, something totally different? It may be that, unlike me, you have always written for yourself and everyone else, avoiding the pitfall of formatting your work to please a girlfriend or a specific audience. But, at the same time, you've been hesitant about sharing to the point of becoming secretive. Writing is not a manly endeavour, right? Certainly not what the lads (or the lasses) down the bar would guess you do at nights. If that is the case, my first instinct would be to advise you to let it all out and level with everyone. Girls around these parts love that kind of stuff, especially when it comes from a man who fits masculine stereotypes in all other respects and, more importantly, does what is expected of him: earns an honest (but good) living, and always waits for them to have an orgasm first. (But beware -- don't write just for them. Write for yourself and for everyone else.)

I don't even know if I'm remotely on the right track, but I'll keep writing anyway.

Summary of defenses being abandoned: (1) writing with the needs of individuals or specific groups firmly in mind so that negative criticism is avoided; (2) being secretive about your writing to the point of hiding a part of yourself from others, for fear of being labeled "less of a man". These can both happen at the same time, by the way, and that's a bad way to be.

Abandoning (1) will almost certainly lead to: viewing your writing more objectively, and becoming a better editor for yourself; exploring different genres and topics; persevering with work until it feels right to show to anybody, not just to a certain person or group of people; and probably many other good things.

Abandoning (2) will allow your daily interactions with people you value (friends, girlfriends, family) to become part of your (up until now secret) writing life. I'm not saying that everyone will dig it or be supportive. Most people will be indifferent. Some will even mock you. Be ready for a couple of jokes that might hurt a little. But even the ones who reject it won't stop being part of your life just because you are a writer. After all, I'm sure you are a lot of other things, too, which they have appreciated until today and will continue to do so. At the same time, you might find that some of them embrace your art in their own unique ways -- some by wanting to read your pieces, some by simply encouraging you to keep going. Also, and this is important, opening up in this way might allow your daily life to merge with your writing in a way that inspires you more.

Do I practise what I preach? Only as far as (1) is concerned, and this only in the last year or so. Regarding (2), I have to admit that I remain pretty much in the closet, at least to my male friends. As you say, it's not easy to be open. But at least you started experimenting with it early enough. If you keep it up, by the time you're my age, you'll have written many more things than I have, and much better things, too, without ever jeopardizing the number of girls you can potentially pin.

Kindest regards,
DH

[Helga]

intimacy in any form can be scary. I avoid it at all cost, I don't post my poems anymore because of this and I prefer keeping them and everything I write safe in my desk where no one can see it.

People keep saying I need to open up and 'learn' how to be intimate but I kinda don't want to. I may show one or two people my poems but not everyone.

I also prefer to avoid commenting on most of the 'serious' topics here cause of this fear and keep to the lighter subjects.

Being intimate and true to yourself can be the hardest part I think. I am working on that and have a few reminders to keep me on track.

When it comes to this generation or men, I am not an expert (being an intro girl) but I think everyone needs to work on being honest to themselves first.

I think women these days are very complicated, they want a strong man but they also want to be strong and independent. They want an equal but also to be taken care of (that is my opinion at least)


Women? Can't live with 'em; can't successfully refute their hypotheses.

[tonywalt]

It's really funny how "what women are looking for" is so often the choice for serious topic discussions, magazine articles, talk show topic, etc.

But you will rarely (almost never) see much on "what men are looking for".

I seek intimacy out, but slowly and naturally lower my guard as trust and respect slowly and naturally build. A life without intimacy and passion - hard to imagine.

[Alexander III]

I am really glad you started this thread as I have been thinking about this and can totaly understand how you feel, I really know how you feel.

I think the real problem is not the "feminization" of society but rather the sterility of it. It has become too cacoon like, and this drives men mad. Lets face it, men are beasts much more so than women - I do not mean this negativley - but adventure fihgting war it is an important part of whom we are. Men are wild, and in modern society we are bound up in chaines of docility. Violence and sex are linked, in that I don't know abou you guys but the sensation of being in a fight and having sex are very similar.

[Charles Darnay]

Hemingway was a man with few attachments, but he produced some of the best writing. He did have the masculinity thing down thought: perhaps bull riding/hunting is the way to go.

I am one of those who in daily life will not be so open about myself. People tend to know very little about me as I have constructed what I want people to know and what I don't want them to know. The downside is an overall lack of intimacy, but on the other hand you can really get inspired when you are an observer of life. Striking a balance is the key.

[MANICHAEAN]

Well put Alexander. My sentiments entirely.

[loe]

It's really funny how "what women are looking for" is so often the choice for serious topic discussions, magazine articles, talk show topic, etc.

But you will rarely (almost never) see much on "what men are looking for".
Not to forget, that most of these articles and discussions are full with cliches. I am female and I usually don't agree with this trashy chatter.

[prendrelemick]

On the whole I think I agree with Jack. Allowing yourself to be yourself must be very liberating, and may be the key to producing writing of true worth.


EDIT. I have an image of the whole of Humanity pretending to be something other than what they feel they are. It is probably the norm and has its roots in evolution, we want to be individuals but The Herd is safer. If you don't conform to The Herd's expectations it may turn on you and give you a good kicking, if you try to live outside it, you will be devoured by lions.:p

[Emil Miller]

It's really funny how "what women are looking for" is so often the choice for serious topic discussions, magazine articles, talk show topic, etc.

But you will rarely (almost never) see much on "what men are looking for".





I think we know what men are looking for.

[JuniperWoolf]

This poster has a reputation of making many friends quickly and easily; and for being quite bold in social situations with strangers. But truth is, it's always felt disingenuous. That's not to say that all of it has been faked, but whatever's going on here has definitely not been rock solid. The women- few of the connections have been real (and some of the boobies have not heheheh); and the friends, most times it's just been polite.

Maybe you're being weighed down by trying to make a good impression. If I ever have to be worried about maintaining a pleasant ambiance, I start to get frustrated after a while. I can't manage it for long, if I'm at a barbecue with a bunch of people that I barely know or something I'd say I can keep up the disingenuous happy chit chat for about a half hour before I just can't stand it anymore. Once I let my real self show it seems to me that most people prefer it. I'm funnier, more interesting, and less obviously fake that way (although my close friends make fun of me because I'd say maybe 10% of the people I come into contact with, mostly young women and old men, seriously detest my true personality, often with hilarious results).


Violence and sex are linked, in that I don't know abou you guys but the sensation of being in a fight and having sex are very similar.

This is true, I've often thought about that.

[tonywalt]

I think we know what men are looking for.

Oh yes, confidence, social skill, alpha female qualities, and a great sense of humour.

[YesNo]

What are "alpha" female qualities?

[Scheherazade]

I think we know what men are looking for.And, as it is often the case, too vain to ask for directions no doubt...

[Emil Miller]

And, as it is often the case, too vain to ask for directions no doubt...

:lol:

[tonywalt]

What are "alpha" female qualities?

MMmmm. Katherine Hepburn in her day. Meryl Streep. That sort of personality.

[JuniperWoolf]

Does anyone else get extremely uncomfortable when they're being complimented for things that aren't physical? I think that would be something regarding "intimacy" that I have a problem with. The person doing it feels way too close, it makes me squirm, I have in the past literally walked away without a word right in the middle of a conversation if people start in on my non-physical traits that they admire. If anyone says I have great style or hair or something I soak it up, but if they say I'm interesting or clever or something I just feel my heart pounding and try to escape the situation. No idea why, I can take and deal insults and teasing like a baus.

[Alexander III]

Does anyone else get extremely uncomfortable when they're being complimented for things that aren't physical? I think that would be something regarding "intimacy" that I have a problem with. The person doing it feels way too close, it makes me squirm, I have in the past literally walked away without a word right in the middle of a conversation if people start in on my non-physical traits that they admire. If anyone says I have great style or hair or something I soak it up, but if they say I'm interesting or clever or something I just feel my heart pounding and try to escape the situation. No idea why, I can take and deal insults and teasing like a baus.

I am the complete opposite. I enjoy being complimented on everything non-physical. And up to last year I loved being complimented on the physical, but now it is uncomfortable. Like When I was at a party with two neighbor friends and they told me they had been looking at my facebook, and that I was beautiful and had beautiful eyes - I hated it, wanted to run away. I always thought girls were the same so I never give physical compliments because I assumed they hate it just as much as me.

[jajdude]

Who does not fear yet crave that wonderful scary beast called intimacy? It hounds our hearts. It seems so far away. Yet it is here. Right here. A tap on the door.

[Jack of Hearts]

Hi everyone. Below is a response for everyone who seemed to want one. Feel free to crosstalk if you wanna respond to something this reader posted in reponse to someone else. Nice discussion so far, very pleasing.


But I can understand the fear of it. I am a rather distanced person myself - don't want to give others a "weapon" to hurt me... or something like that...

Hi loe. That seems to be precisely it in a lot of cases. But isn't it the great irony that you can't stop yourself from being hurt? Whether you give a 'weapon' or not. Even if you 'defend' yourself, you will be hurt again. Emotionally. Physically. That type of certainty doesn't exist. But this is how we think. Who can fault you for feeling this way?


Anyway regarding your topic Jack, in poetry there are often things that cut you up, things that leave you open and brutalised. I think it's a good idea to work with these things, but who you choose to share with, and how you present these things, are always important things to think about.

Absolutely agreed, Silas. But before showing our work to other people, we have to first create it. So in our process, if we're being emotionally deceitful or 'defensive' and not open, perhaps we're selling ourselves short? It's almost as though, at the time, we cannot think of the consequences, be they damnation or prizes. As for who should see our work, that's a complicated question. It's a hell of a human being that can read poetry or prose in the right way. It takes perfect empathy, perfect humanism. This reader tries harder each time. What do you think?


I'm a woman and the idea of being truly vunerable scares the crap out of me... I feel your pain :)

We're only human, after all.


I dare say that I know where you're coming from. I had the same thoughts recently, fifteen years later in life than you did. It might be too late for me -- that remains to be seen -- but you're certainly on the right track.

Doc, your post is a douzie. But the first thing this reader would say to you... is probably going to sound disgustingly American in (a Ralph Waldo Emerson kind of way). Simply put, be you 40 or 90 years old, you have no right to give up on yourself. You must 'till your field' as Emerson would say. You must toil toward your own development. So no more of this 'too late for me' talk, you grumpy old bastard! Get plowing!


However, let me get this straight: what are these "defenses" we're talking about, the ones you've now decided to try to live without? What were they protecting you from up to now?

Just being dishonest. Misdirection, misrepresentation maybe. Maybe a better answer will come the further this reader works his way through your post. You asked what were they protection from? Keeping people from seeing something that didn't feel like it was 'good enough'; shame about not being good enough; possibility of coming up short; being ostracized for being pathetic.

The best answer might be just protection from being vulnerable in general. Being un-harmable? Obviously fear is playing a role there.


You mention that they hindered your creativity. How?

Did they make you write "for others", always bearing their sensitivities in mind, so that they would be more likely to offer positive reviews? I did this for a long time. I wrote for specific women. While writing, I tried to second-guess what their reactions would be while reading. Those weren't truthful writings, they were artificial to the point of being plastic.

Ah, you're in good company. This reader still has some 'love poetry' from high school. That was written for girls- thank god that was just a phase. Truly awful stuff. But in terms of recent endeavors, probably not so much. Maybe a bit. But regardless, this feeling is well known here, friend.



Then, of course, there's writing "for audiences". I wrote leftist ideology polemics for the university paper, I wrote technical manuals for software testers, I wrote BDSM fiction for a forum of "literary eroticists" (sic), and I wrote short dialogues between toy dinosaurs and blond rosey-cheeked toddlers for English language teaching publications. None of this stuff made me feel good while I was writing it. I'm not saying that being sensitive to your readers' needs is a bad thing; I'm just saying that being sensitive to a specific group's needs at the expense of your own sensitivities stifles your creativity. That is how I understand your point about being open while being creative. It's a huge step to make.

This reader feels like he knows it from all the papers he wrote in school- had to do it a specific way, for the professor's readership. Really unpleasant, maybe somewhat hurtful. Absolutely agreed, but this reader feels he never necessarily had this problem in a genuinely artistic manner. It really sounds like you've been through it, Doc. A lot of miserable junk. But you got to remember, it must've paid of- this reader quite likes your creative endeavors.


Or is it, perhaps, something totally different? It may be that, unlike me, you have always written for yourself and everyone else, avoiding the pitfall of formatting your work to please a girlfriend or a specific audience. But, at the same time, you've been hesitant about sharing to the point of becoming secretive. Writing is not a manly endeavour, right? Certainly not what the lads (or the lasses) down the bar would guess you do at nights. If that is the case, my first instinct would be to advise you to let it all out and level with everyone. Girls around these parts love that kind of stuff, especially when it comes from a man who fits masculine stereotypes in all other respects and, more importantly, does what is expected of him: earns an honest (but good) living, and always waits for them to have an orgasm first. (But beware -- don't write just for them. Write for yourself and for everyone else.)

I don't even know if I'm remotely on the right track, but I'll keep writing anyway.

This third point feels more like home. Of course, it was never a question of masculinity. Felt more like having to hide a side of oneself that is misunderstood or demonized for being different. Most people never seemed to understand this reader's 'artistic streak' and he doubts they ever will. Furthermore, it wasn't asked for or even enjoyed at most parts. It's like growing up twice, complete with awkward stages and pains. As for telling 'buddies' about it, there just doesn't seem to be words ("HAI U GUYS LIEK POEMZ?"). It's just 'being' at this point. This reader has this desire, this aspect of himself that wants to do these things. This is how it manifests itself in a way other people can see. No longer hiding it, just expecting other people to take it or leave it. Allowing for vulnerability.

But you're right. Masculinity is inevitably important. If we are men, we have to discover for ourselves what masculinity means as a part of us. And that may very well be a question of being open. If you have thoughts on masculinity, actually, this reader wants to hear it.

They say you're not a man until you've loved a woman. That certainly sounds like a deep level of intimacy.


Summary of defenses being abandoned: (1) writing with the needs of individuals or specific groups firmly in mind so that negative criticism is avoided; (2) being secretive about your writing to the point of hiding a part of yourself from others, for fear of being labeled "less of a man". These can both happen at the same time, by the way, and that's a bad way to be.

Abandoning (1) will almost certainly lead to: viewing your writing more objectively, and becoming a better editor for yourself; exploring different genres and topics; persevering with work until it feels right to show to anybody, not just to a certain person or group of people; and probably many other good things.

Abandoning (2) will allow your daily interactions with people you value (friends, girlfriends, family) to become part of your (up until now secret) writing life. I'm not saying that everyone will dig it or be supportive. Most people will be indifferent. Some will even mock you. Be ready for a couple of jokes that might hurt a little. But even the ones who reject it won't stop being part of your life just because you are a writer. After all, I'm sure you are a lot of other things, too, which they have appreciated until today and will continue to do so. At the same time, you might find that some of them embrace your art in their own unique ways -- some by wanting to read your pieces, some by simply encouraging you to keep going. Also, and this is important, opening up in this way might allow your daily life to merge with your writing in a way that inspires you more.

This actually could help a lot of people if they read it. Assuming they had similiar problems (which seems pretty plausible for the most part). Point 1 resonates pretty well with this reader. An articulate and well structured presentation, Doc. Now that this reader thinks about it, your entire response reads like a keen feat of intellect. 2 seems highly accurate (barring the issues of masculinity that this reader never feared- in some way, until recently, this reader was probably too underevolved intellectually to be able to consider what it means to be a man. He never really put emphasis on it before- until recently, anatomically being a man seemed 'good enough'. Slow learner). There seems to be a lot of truth in 2.

One thing this reader would say in regards to point 2 is that if you feel the need to hide something like writing, you're probably hiding (or hiding from) a lot of other things. It's probably a deeper issue that's hurting your life.


Do I practise what I preach? Only as far as (1) is concerned, and this only in the last year or so. Regarding (2), I have to admit that I remain pretty much in the closet, at least to my male friends. As you say, it's not easy to be open. But at least you started experimenting with it early enough. If you keep it up, by the time you're my age, you'll have written many more things than I have, and much better things, too, without ever jeopardizing the number of girls you can potentially pin.

We're sharing this crazy journey together it seems, amigo. But as for 'being your age', and this returning tone of defeatism about your age...
First, re-read the Emerson thing again. And secondly, you're heavily discounting what you seem to have going for you as seen through your artistic output. Quit talking like it's over for you, Doc! You're fighting for your life here!


intimacy in any form can be scary. I avoid it at all cost, I don't post my poems anymore because of this and I prefer keeping them and everything I write safe in my desk where no one can see it.

People keep saying I need to open up and 'learn' how to be intimate but I kinda don't want to. I may show one or two people my poems but not everyone.

I also prefer to avoid commenting on most of the 'serious' topics here cause of this fear and keep to the lighter subjects.

Being intimate and true to yourself can be the hardest part I think. I am working on that and have a few reminders to keep me on track.

When it comes to this generation or men, I am not an expert (being an intro girl) but I think everyone needs to work on being honest to themselves first.

I think women these days are very complicated, they want a strong man but they also want to be strong and independent. They want an equal but also to be taken care of (that is my opinion at least)

Thanks for the reply, Helga. It takes courage to be honest. But this reader is starting to think that it's stupid to play it safe in this life, because we are never 'safe' and the healthy thing to do is to grow to accept that.

We have something in common; this reader is working on being intimate and true to himself as well. But doesn't it seem like being able to admit that you're afraid is a big first step?

And yeah, women (in America) do seem to be complicated in that way. But doesn't everybody really want that? Fairness and caring in their lives? This reader remembers replying to a post about isolation on these forums, and his response comes to mind here: we need each other, we need other human beings' touch, affection, love, etc. We emotionally, physiologically, biologically, and intellectually need that. Maybe that's a fact we have to grow into in our own time? What do you think? That is, if you still feel like conversation. You said that replying to these serious threads makes you somewhat uncomfortable. That's ok. It's not a safe thing to do, saying how you really think/feel. But this reader would say it's a necessary thing.


I am really glad you started this thread as I have been thinking about this and can totaly understand how you feel, I really know how you feel.

Cheers. No idea what the other part of your post means, other than its extrapolating beyond the immediate and generalizing for no discernible merit. Philosophizing can harm us too, you know. Take it from someone who's been harmed by it. The claim that men are basically one way or another across a spectrum is not one that this reader is going to grant you epistemic grounds to make- regardless of whether or not he's interested in that discussion (not so much). This type of thinking is to be discouraged in this reader's opinion. We've got too much at stake. We've got our lives here. Our immediate expereince. This reader won't waste another minute on theorizing.


Hemingway was a man with few attachments, but he produced some of the best writing. He did have the masculinity thing down thought: perhaps bull riding/hunting is the way to go.

I am one of those who in daily life will not be so open about myself. People tend to know very little about me as I have constructed what I want people to know and what I don't want them to know. The downside is an overall lack of intimacy, but on the other hand you can really get inspired when you are an observer of life. Striking a balance is the key.

Didn't Hemingway have children/a family?

Anyways, if you've genuinely found your happiness living that way, your honesty, then who can say otherwise. But to this reader, that sounds like a hard way to live, like stopping in the middle of a journey maybe. And for him the inspiration never came from the observation, but from the actual experience. The detached observation actually, at this point, feels like some of the worst moments of pain. Anyways, maybe you'd care to elaborate more?


On the whole I think I agree with Jack. Allowing yourself to be yourself must be very liberating, and may be the key to producing writing of true worth.


EDIT. I have an image of the whole of Humanity pretending to be something other than what they feel they are. It is probably the norm and has its roots in evolution, we want to be individuals but The Herd is safer. If you don't conform to The Herd's expectations it may turn on you and give you a good kicking, if you try to live outside it, you will be devoured by lions.

Mick, it seems like you've really nailed it. This reader doesn't believe it's just coincidence that he likes your writing so much. You put it so simply that it seems you genuinely understand.


Maybe you're being weighed down by trying to make a good impression. If I ever have to be worried about maintaining a pleasant ambiance, I start to get frustrated after a while. I can't manage it for long, if I'm at a barbecue with a bunch of people that I barely know or something I'd say I can keep up the disingenuous happy chit chat for about a half hour before I just can't stand it anymore. Once I let my real self show it seems to me that most people prefer it. I'm funnier, more interesting, and less obviously fake that way (although my close friends make fun of me because I'd say maybe 10% of the people I come into contact with, mostly young women and old men, seriously detest my true personality, often with hilarious results).

Yes, that seems like part of it. This reader has shared your feelings before. That's actually a nicely put and practical example.


Does anyone else get extremely uncomfortable when they're being complimented for things that aren't physical? I think that would be something regarding "intimacy" that I have a problem with. The person doing it feels way too close, it makes me squirm, I have in the past literally walked away without a word right in the middle of a conversation if people start in on my non-physical traits that they admire. If anyone says I have great style or hair or something I soak it up, but if they say I'm interesting or clever or something I just feel my heart pounding and try to escape the situation. No idea why, I can take and deal insults and teasing like a baus.

That seems like it could be an intimacy issue. Too close? Hmmm. If you wanted to elaborate, this reader is curious. Any idea why you feel that way about it?


Who does not fear yet crave that wonderful scary beast called intimacy? It hounds our hearts. It seems so far away. Yet it is here. Right here. A tap on the door.

Pithy and precise, dude. It is right there, isn't it?





J

[jajdude]

Indeed Jack, I believe it lies near. Yet it remains elusive. Our lives are built on this, the push and the pull. It's hard to put into words. It's like describing a maths graph. I can appreciate the abstract value of it all, but the thing itself mostly eludes me.

[Silas Thorne]

But before showing our work to other people, we have to first create it. So in our process, if we're being emotionally deceitful or 'defensive' and not open, perhaps we're selling ourselves short? It's almost as though, at the time, we cannot think of the consequences, be they damnation or prizes. As for who should see our work, that's a complicated question. It's a hell of a human being that can read poetry or prose in the right way. It takes perfect empathy, perfect humanism. This reader tries harder each time. What do you think?

J

Yes. We've got to follow the wild sparks where they take us. I try to make sure and follow them well, and not block what comes. Sometimes lines in my notebooks stay there for months or years before they shine forth again though, often in a new form.

I think you're a good and careful reader Jack. I always take note of your feedback. :)

Excellent readers can often uncover things that a writer tries to hide from his or her audience in being defensive or deliberately cryptic.

Sentences are supposed to relate to one another, and the ones above might not. Forgive me, I have a bit of the cold.

[Helga]

.

Thanks for the reply, Helga. It takes courage to be honest. But this reader is starting to think that it's stupid to play it safe in this life, because we are never 'safe' and the healthy thing to do is to grow to accept that.

We have something in common; this reader is working on being intimate and true to himself as well. But doesn't it seem like being able to admit that you're afraid is a big first step?

And yeah, women (in America) do seem to be complicated in that way. But doesn't everybody really want that? Fairness and caring in their lives? This reader remembers replying to a post about isolation on these forums, and his response comes to mind here: we need each other, we need other human beings' touch, affection, love, etc. We emotionally, physiologically, biologically, and intellectually need that. Maybe that's a fact we have to grow into in our own time? What do you think? That is, if you still feel like conversation. You said that replying to these serious threads makes you somewhat uncomfortable. That's ok. It's not a safe thing to do, saying how you really think/feel. But this reader would say it's a necessary thing.

J


The part about needing someone is my biggest problem, I really don't want to want someone. Being very intimate with another person is very scary and it brings up pain just as pleasure. I sometimes wonder if it's worth it. But it's also hard in a not so intimate way, just asking for help when I don't want to need anyone is hard.

Like I said before I am focusing on myself and I have been doing that for two years now, I have to admit though that I am very intimate and open on my blog here. I use it mainly as a diary to get my thoughts in order and I say a lot more there then to anyone in real life, except my brother maybe.

Life is often hard, sometimes I think ignorance really is bliss.

[Darcy88]

I'm the neediest dude intimacy-wise. But I look and act strong and confident. I think a lot of guys might be like this. Lots of people think I'm a player and an a-hole but really I'm just a sensitive romantic who wants love, real fairy tale love.

Anyway.

[JuniperWoolf]

Too close? Hmmm. If you wanted to elaborate, this reader is curious. Any idea why you feel that way about it?

Hmm, well I'm not the type to attribute my personality traits to my "upbringing" or whatever, but teasing was always just how my family expressed affection. Sincere admiration is embarassing, I don't know. Just thinking about it makes me anxious.

I don't feel much of anything when people compliment physical stuff, and I think that's for two reasons: first, because I've heard it a lot, as I've had various jobs since I was twelve in a town largely populated by rig workers and miners and they're desperate for human contact. Secondly, anyone could look attractive if they just-so-happen to have been born with the basic physical prerequisites (I've come to the conclusion that body size and a more-or-less symetrical face is really the key). That's more to do with luck than anything.

[tonywalt]

I'm the neediest dude intimacy-wise. But I look and act strong and confident. I think a lot of guys might be like this. Lots of people think I'm a player and an a-hole but really I'm just a sensitive romantic who wants love, real fairy tale love.

Anyway.

Yea, same here. Women certainly like men, and some love men, , but men need women. I certainly do, and not for the obvious reasons. I'd say that women provide men a neccessary emotional outlet that is not very available with male friends. They tend to be nurturing, and are likely aware that guys are not quite as secure as we act.

[YesNo]

I'm the neediest dude intimacy-wise. But I look and act strong and confident. I think a lot of guys might be like this. Lots of people think I'm a player and an a-hole but really I'm just a sensitive romantic who wants love, real fairy tale love.
I think most people want a fairy tale love, but one has to be prepared to give that kind of love in order to get it.

My daughter was watching Disney's Beauty and the Beast, a fairy tale love story if there ever was one, a couple of weekends ago. I interrupted my work to watch some scenes with her that I remembered enjoying. She asked me why the prince was turned into the beast. Although I was surprised she didn't know that, I told her it was because he didn't provide an old woman with shelter in exchange for a rose at the beginning of the movie. He turned her away as unworthy of being in the same house with him. He was a fairy tale prince who didn't know how to give the fairy tale love he wanted to receive. His anger rather than his patience was a characteristic of his problem.

This might provide a key to the intimacy issue which I think should include more than physical intimacy between lovers. If you give intimacy, you might receive a rose in return, but you should expect to receive nothing and you may even be rejected.

Who should be the recipient of intimacy? Everyone: The pretty ones, the ugly ones, the young ones, the old ones, the healthy ones, the sick ones, the good ones, the bad ones. How does this help with one's writing? Although the reason to give intimacy should not be to get characters for your writing, but for its own sake, you have now learned to love all kinds of people in many different ways. Your subconscious and intuition will offer them back to you to use in your poems and stories in hopefully ways that your readers will admire.

[qimissung]

That's really beautiful, YesNo.

I'm really intrigued with this topic, Jack, and it was very interesting to read your initial post. Intimacy is something I have longed for most of my life. I guess I do think I have achieved it with my mother and with my sons. Other than that I often feel very isolated emotionally, and I will confess that I have struggled for most of my life with a very low self-esteem. I don't know why it is but if I am seeing someone and it seems like they might really like me, I run away as fast as I can. Or, if I like them 10 per cent more than they like me, I put up with too much. I have a great deal of difficulty asserting myself. I guess I'm afraid they'll leave, and of course that happens eventually anyway.

Like most people here I would like a relationship with someone kind and funny and interesting, someone with integrity, and someone who accepts my dark side.

I wish the same for you, Jack. I have always thought you were kind as well as talented, and I'm impressed that you have taken yourself on this journey. It will be an interesting one, and if you follow a certain Dane's advice, can only end well, and that goes for your writing, too. There are many truths, but insight, whether into oneself, or into human nature in general, is vital. You can't write truth outside yourself until you know truth inside yourself.

[Darcy88]

I think most people want a fairy tale love, but one has to be prepared to give that kind of love in order to get it.

My daughter was watching Disney's Beauty and the Beast, a fairy tale love story if there ever was one, a couple of weekends ago. I interrupted my work to watch some scenes with her that I remembered enjoying. She asked me why the prince was turned into the beast. Although I was surprised she didn't know that, I told her it was because he didn't provide an old woman with shelter in exchange for a rose at the beginning of the movie. He turned her away as unworthy of being in the same house with him. He was a fairy tale prince who didn't know how to give the fairy tale love he wanted to receive. His anger rather than his patience was a characteristic of his problem.

This might provide a key to the intimacy issue which I think should include more than physical intimacy between lovers. If you give intimacy, you might receive a rose in return, but you should expect to receive nothing and you may even be rejected.

Who should be the recipient of intimacy? Everyone: The pretty ones, the ugly ones, the young ones, the old ones, the healthy ones, the sick ones, the good ones, the bad ones. How does this help with one's writing? Although the reason to give intimacy should not be to get characters for your writing, but for its own sake, you have now learned to love all kinds of people in many different ways. Your subconscious and intuition will offer them back to you to use in your poems and stories in hopefully ways that your readers will admire.

Wow YesNo. This really spoke to me. Thank you for sharing that lovely story about your daughter and the Beauty and the Beast.

Honestly, this post of yours made me realize how much Beast, how much Rochester I have in me.

If a person shows beast they get beast. I think this is what you're saying.

[YesNo]

Thanks, qimissung and Darcy88.

How does one actually get into an intimate relationship with someone else? Since I have been married for some decades this hasn't been something I've had to think about recently, but keeping a relationship healthy, like a fairy tale even when the castle is under attack, is an ongoing activity.

[Helga]

Thanks, qimissung and Darcy88.

How does one actually get into an intimate relationship with someone else? Since I have been married for some decades this hasn't been something I've had to think about recently, but keeping a relationship healthy, like a fairy tale even when the castle is under attack, is an ongoing activity.

I was in a relationship for 5 years and I never felt close to him. I realized when we broke up and I decided to be alone that the one thing I would make sure is there from the start if I meet someone again is total honesty. Like qimi said someone who can handle my dark side. You need to be able to be true to yourself first and be able to have a 'meltdown' or just be your crazy self without judgment.

I always thought that a perfect relationship had no 'issues' so I just shut up if I was upset with my ex but now I think I'd rather disagree and try to handle everything thrown at me but still hold on to the relationship. That is if I can find someone I want to hold on too.

It often gives clarity to see the world though a kids eye. My son tells me almost every day that he wants a stepdad, he finds it very odd that I like being alone.

[PoeticPassions]

Intimacy is scary because one has to become vulnerable in order to be intimate. And being vulnerable is uncomfortable and frightening, but it can also be extremely liberating and beautiful.

I agree with YesNo that you must give intimacy to receive it, but I can understand that giving it can be challenging. As human beings we are often capricious and unstable and creating real, deep connections is difficult... to give oneself to someone else, or to let someone in is almost like playing russian roulette... But the rewards of intimacy are great. And the risks, though they may lead to pain, can also involve growth and healing.

[JuniperWoolf]

Hmm, I've never had a problem with closeness. I think it's because of my genuine curiosity regarding interesting people, my unwillingness to lie, and my desire to talk about myself.

[YesNo]

I don't think I have any problems with closeness or intimacy either as long as it seems the right thing to do. Sometimes intimacy implies faithfulness which means not being intimate in the same way with others. Other intimacy may be too burdensome to accept.

On a different topic, there were two beasts in the movie Beauty and the Beast. One was the Beast and the other was Gaston. They both had bad tempers and they both died in the end, although the death for the Beast was temporary and meant the breaking of his spell. Belle rejected intimacy with Gaston, but chose intimacy with the Beast. Is there any underlying difference between these two beasts? I don't know, although Gaston seems clearly worse than the Beast.

I find it amusing that I am going to a work of art to try to make sense out of life.


You need to be able to be true to yourself first and be able to have a 'meltdown' or just be your crazy self without judgment.


I don't know what you mean by "meltdown", but it may involve reacting to pain by projecting it onto someone else. That other person feels pain because of this, doesn't like it, and reacts to it in the form of judgment which is just a projection of their pain back. I think we need to let the pain we experience stop with us even if we think someone else caused it and needs to be punished. I'm not always good at doing that but I ultimately regret it when I'm not.

[Helga]

That is in part what I mean with meltdown, we sometimes say hurtful things we don't really mean or say things that have some truth to them but are said in anger. I call it a meltdown when I feel like everything is terrible and almost every part of life sucks, in a relationship I think you need to be able to voice your feelings without the other person taking it as a personal attack because my feelings are a reflection of many things going on in life, work, school or whatever.

That is in part my 'dark side' as called before and I have a real fear of opening up to people about it. But I still want to cause I think that is a big part of intimacy, showing someone everything you don't like about yourself and them being OK with it.


I think that is what I mean, sometimes things make sense in my head but I can't get them out right...

[kaybaily]

hum...very nice to read a post written by a man about intimacy. Such honest conversation from everyone who has responded too.
I am the queen of intimacy. It comes natural for me and in my younger years, it bit me in the butt a few times....However painful the bite was, I still vowed to be myself which is open. My lesson was balance and discretion. Not everyone is available for such openness. I have read many times, that intimacy is more of a feminine trait but I disagree with that. I think its a human trait and we women were given permission while males were scolded into holding their feelings back. We all have both masculine and feminine energies and learning to balance them is the key to having peace with oneself and others. Great Topic!

[YesNo]

I suppose we all have a "dark side", Helga.

I might be getting lost in this thread, but all of a sudden I don't even know what "intimacy" means. Maybe I have no problem with it because I have no clue what it is. I'm quite happy walking alone for hours in a park. I could probably do it for days. I think you're right, kaybaily, that intimacy is not a peculiarly feminine trait, but now I wonder if I even know what it is.

[prendrelemick]

I suppose we all have a "dark side", Helga.

I might be getting lost in this thread, but all of a sudden I don't even know what "intimacy" means. Maybe I have no problem with it because I have no clue what it is. I'm quite happy walking alone for hours in a park. I could probably do it for days. I think you're right, kaybaily, that intimacy is not a peculiarly feminine trait, but now I wonder if I even know what it is.


I think this thread has two strands, or has identiied two kinds o intimacy. There is pesonal intimacy in a relationship with a special person. It is a good thing and something we all would like to be a part o. I ind this easy irstly because I hae been married or many years, but also because there is a balance here, you share equally rather than show.

Then there is the kind o intimacy that Jack talked about in his OP, where a writer is prepared to bare his inner soul- to show what he has, to the world . To me that is the scariest o the two. You are putting yoursel up or judgement by strangers, There is no sharing.

[Steven Hunley]

I agree with Kay Bailey that this intimacy thing is not feminine or masculine but rather trans-gender. Men share a certain 'comraderie" as well as women who've I read share a certain kind of intimacy and 'sisterhood' for the simple reason they share the particular experience of having a period and that makes them all members of the same club. Not sure if I believe that either. Women have been put in the role of care-givers and nurturers for eons. Maybe this, or the expectation of them fulfilling these roles grooms them for intimacy.

Still, intimacy is essentially sharing and I would expect that to translate across the board. It may be because men are usually the warriors that society expects them to be more defensive in one way and more agressive in others, either way makes sharing an unexpected aspect they are, only now, are being expected to demonstrate. This new expectation of society about men goes against their grain so to speak, even if it's society's grain and not their natural inclinations. For example, most male nurses are thought to be gay and therefore judged to have feminine attributes.

On the whole now I sense change in the air. I often see men in public places, and they're takng care of their children, some babes in arms, and when you take care of children you have to show intimacy.

As a child I was sent back and forth between two sets of parents. To insulate myself I set of a kind of Sylvia Plath "Bell Jar" around myself with one set, and allowed myself to grow close only with the other. You can't be intimate with too many people I found out early, it's too much of an emotional investment to spread yourself too thin.

Later I had "intimate" relations with too many women to mention. I thought intimacy was sex. I had issues, bunches of issues,and they were reflected in the women I chose as partners and none of them ever pierced my emotional shield.

Now I'm as old and old can be. I finally found a person I can trust. For me, with trust came intimacy. She's taught me to share my emotions without judgement on her part. It's liberating, and I find, such a thrill to share your thoughts and emotions and ideas and hopes with the same woman you share your bed with. I'm actually happy.

Anyway, about the writing. You have an opportunty in writing to share like a madman. Hemmingway, as was mentioned, did all sorts of masculine things and wrote about them. In some ways I think he was overcompensating. However an unknown audience is like the perfect stranger, one you can share secrets with for the simple reason that in a way you'll never see them again or be judged. It takes confidence to allow yourself to be intimate, to hold both your hands at your sides and say for once in your life, "This is me, take me or leave me." It takes Moxie. But in the end it's liberating. Letting your guard down is as liberating as D day.

[JuniperWoolf]

I think this thread has two strands, or has identiied two kinds o intimacy. There is pesonal intimacy in a relationship with a special person. It is a good thing and something we all would like to be a part o.

I like this new uber Scottish prendrelemick, so sage-like.

[prendrelemick]

Grandson - tea - laptop.:frown5:

[Helga]

Now I'm as old and old can be. I finally found a person I can trust. For me, with trust came intimacy. She's taught me to share my emotions without judgement on her part. It's liberating, and I find, such a thrill to share your thoughts and emotions and ideas and hopes with the same woman you share your bed with. I'm actually happy.



This is what I mean and want, to be able to say anything about my feelings without judgement.

Fairy tales don't come true and life isn't easy but this kind of a relationship is what I want and think most people do.

[Jack of Hearts]

This thread is simply turned amazing by all of your responses. What great input everybody, truly impressive. There's a response for each of you below.



Indeed Jack, I believe it lies near. Yet it remains elusive. Our lives are built on this, the push and the pull. It's hard to put into words. It's like describing a maths graph. I can appreciate the abstract value of it all, but the thing itself mostly eludes me.

Nicely put, dude. Maybe you’re just overthinking it. Maybe intimacy/vulnerability is like riding a bike. We don’t think about riding the bike, we just do it. Of course, the thought and wonder of learning to ride in the first place seems enormous and insurmountable. One step at a time. That’s why they invented training wheels.


Yes. We've got to follow the wild sparks where they take us. I try to make sure and follow them well, and not block what comes. Sometimes lines in my notebooks stay there for months or years before they shine forth again though, often in a new form.

I think you're a good and careful reader Jack. I always take note of your feedback.

Excellent readers can often uncover things that a writer tries to hide from his or her audience in being defensive or deliberately cryptic.

Sentences are supposed to relate to one another, and the ones above might not. Forgive me, I have a bit of the cold.

Thanks for the compliment, Silas. It’s good to read your work and (as this reader has always expressed) share the forum with you. Of course, this reader fears we’re losing sight of something; the artistic streak and the personal streak and inexonerably intertwined in this reader’s opinion. No?


The part about needing someone is my biggest problem, I really don't want to want someone. Being very intimate with another person is very scary and it brings up pain just as pleasure. I sometimes wonder if it's worth it. But it's also hard in a not so intimate way, just asking for help when I don't want to need anyone is hard.

Like I said before I am focusing on myself and I have been doing that for two years now, I have to admit though that I am very intimate and open on my blog here. I use it mainly as a diary to get my thoughts in order and I say a lot more there then to anyone in real life, except my brother maybe.

Well, we can’t help how we feel (referring to choosing to want what we want). And we can’t help what we need (such as intimacy), no matter how scary it is. Maybe a blog is a rather healthy outlet in that regard, Helga.


I'm the neediest dude intimacy-wise. But I look and act strong and confident. I think a lot of guys might be like this. Lots of people think I'm a player and an a-hole but really I'm just a sensitive romantic who wants love, real fairy tale love.

Anyway.

That seems to have the opposite effect, though, ‘acting strong and confident.’ Are these things genuine or ways of stopping the very interpersonal intimacy you desire? When this reader was younger, he was definitely that way (not necessarily that you are. Maybe you really feel strong and confident). Anyways, we all want at least some aspect of that ‘fairy tale love,’ so there’s that.


Hmm, well I'm not the type to attribute my personality traits to my "upbringing" or whatever, but teasing was always just how my family expressed affection. Sincere admiration is embarassing, I don't know. Just thinking about it makes me anxious.

That’s actually kind of brave and genuine for you to share. Maybe the embarassment/admiration thing is worth reflecting on for a while, for you.


Yea, same here. Women certainly like men, and some love men, , but men need women. I certainly do, and not for the obvious reasons. I'd say that women provide men a neccessary emotional outlet that is not very available with male friends. They tend to be nurturing, and are likely aware that guys are not quite as secure as we act.

C’mon tony, women are different from men but they are still human beings. Women need intimacy as much as men do- but some psychologists, such as Zimbardo, think that women are better at getting it from platonic relationships in their own gender. The concurrent claim is that heterosexual men label emotional sharing/male intimacy as ‘gay’ and are uncomfortable with it. This reader thinks the second part of your post speaks a little bit toward that. As far as women having some majestical awareness of men, this reader doesn’t believe it. They’re just people. Some are a mess. Some are more put together than others. They have their own problems, and this reader would never place them as superior, or inferior in that context. Equal. Just human.


I think most people want a fairy tale love, but one has to be prepared to give that kind of love in order to get it.

My daughter was watching Disney's Beauty and the Beast, a fairy tale love story if there ever was one, a couple of weekends ago. I interrupted my work to watch some scenes with her that I remembered enjoying. She asked me why the prince was turned into the beast. Although I was surprised she didn't know that, I told her it was because he didn't provide an old woman with shelter in exchange for a rose at the beginning of the movie. He turned her away as unworthy of being in the same house with him. He was a fairy tale prince who didn't know how to give the fairy tale love he wanted to receive. His anger rather than his patience was a characteristic of his problem.

This might provide a key to the intimacy issue which I think should include more than physical intimacy between lovers. If you give intimacy, you might receive a rose in return, but you should expect to receive nothing and you may even be rejected.

Who should be the recipient of intimacy? Everyone: The pretty ones, the ugly ones, the young ones, the old ones, the healthy ones, the sick ones, the good ones, the bad ones. How does this help with one's writing? Although the reason to give intimacy should not be to get characters for your writing, but for its own sake, you have now learned to love all kinds of people in many different ways. Your subconscious and intuition will offer them back to you to use in your poems and stories in hopefully ways that your readers will admire.

Eh, YesNo, your posts are a treat. But this reader does feel we have to come to regard ‘love’ in a more mature manner than ‘fairytale love.’ If you’re counting on another person to ‘complete you’ and give you the love of your life, this reader would just shrug and say good luck. Maybe when you have some love to spare, maybe when you’ve found your self worth and don’t need anyone to ‘complete you’ or the love of your life, you’re finally ready to give genuine love. This relates to the last part of your post, hopefully, which was amazing in its own right.



That's really beautiful, YesNo.

I'm really intrigued with this topic, Jack, and it was very interesting to read your initial post. Intimacy is something I have longed for most of my life. I guess I do think I have achieved it with my mother and with my sons. Other than that I often feel very isolated emotionally, and I will confess that I have struggled for most of my life with a very low self-esteem. I don't know why it is but if I am seeing someone and it seems like they might really like me, I run away as fast as I can. Or, if I like them 10 per cent more than they like me, I put up with too much. I have a great deal of difficulty asserting myself. I guess I'm afraid they'll leave, and of course that happens eventually anyway.

Like most people here I would like a relationship with someone kind and funny and interesting, someone with integrity, and someone who accepts my dark side.

I wish the same for you, Jack. I have always thought you were kind as well as talented, and I'm impressed that you have taken yourself on this journey. It will be an interesting one, and if you follow a certain Dane's advice, can only end well, and that goes for your writing, too. There are many truths, but insight, whether into oneself, or into human nature in general, is vital. You can't write truth outside yourself until you know truth inside yourself.

It’s definitely hard sometimes, qi. It’s definitely easy to relate to what you’ve shared here. Hopefully you can figure out your self-esteem issues. It’s funny how this can be a problem for intelligent women. Or people in general. Having your own critical mind turn against you maybe? Who knows. But you know the old saying, how can you love anybody ‘til you love yourself?

Thank you very much for the compliment. Quite kind. And the journey has been painful, humiliating but necessary. Like taking your medicine after all these years. But honestly, this reader’s life has improved a hundred times over because of it, and would encourage anyone to push for such emotional growth. Even if it’s baby steps. Even if it hurts.


How does one actually get into an intimate relationship with someone else? Since I have been married for some decades this hasn't been something I've had to think about recently, but keeping a relationship healthy, like a fairy tale even when the castle is under attack, is an ongoing activity.

It’s the easiest and most difficult thing in the world, in this reader’s opinion. They’re vulnerable to you. You’re vulnerable to them. Somehow human nature takes over and you just bond. That is, when it works out (does it often work out? Maybe if you get good at it?).


Intimacy is scary because one has to become vulnerable in order to be intimate. And being vulnerable is uncomfortable and frightening, but it can also be extremely liberating and beautiful.

I agree with YesNo that you must give intimacy to receive it, but I can understand that giving it can be challenging. As human beings we are often capricious and unstable and creating real, deep connections is difficult... to give oneself to someone else, or to let someone in is almost like playing russian roulette... But the rewards of intimacy are great. And the risks, though they may lead to pain, can also involve growth and healing.

PP, the two of us are sharing brainwaves these days. It’s crazy, and couldn’t agree more with your post. You’re exactly right about the failures, this reader thinks. They help you come to terms with yourself, maybe the most important thing.



hum...very nice to read a post written by a man about intimacy. Such honest conversation from everyone who has responded too.
I am the queen of intimacy. It comes natural for me and in my younger years, it bit me in the butt a few times....However painful the bite was, I still vowed to be myself which is open. My lesson was balance and discretion. Not everyone is available for such openness. I have read many times, that intimacy is more of a feminine trait but I disagree with that. I think its a human trait and we women were given permission while males were scolded into holding their feelings back. We all have both masculine and feminine energies and learning to balance them is the key to having peace with oneself and others. Great Topic!

Thanks. It was scary to post the original post. This poster thought he was going to be laughed right out of here. But instead this thread turned amazing. It seems like you’re in a good place about it.


I think this thread has two strands, or has identiied two kinds o intimacy. There is pesonal intimacy in a relationship with a special person. It is a good thing and something we all would like to be a part o. I ind this easy irstly because I hae been married or many years, but also because there is a balance here, you share equally rather than show.

Then there is the kind o intimacy that Jack talked about in his OP, where a writer is prepared to bare his inner soul- to show what he has, to the world . To me that is the scariest o the two. You are putting yoursel up or judgement by strangers, There is no sharing.

Precisely mick. Although this reader would relate it back by saying that the artistic intimacy is directly tied to the personal, and one’s willingness to be vulnerable/honest/open/intimate would reflect in their artistic endeavors. As well as one’s willingness to lie or be dishonest or play for ego. Clearly this can manifest itself in personal relationships as well, though.


I agree with Kay Bailey that this intimacy thing is not feminine or masculine but rather trans-gender. Men share a certain 'comraderie" as well as women who've I read share a certain kind of intimacy and 'sisterhood' for the simple reason they share the particular experience of having a period and that makes them all members of the same club. Not sure if I believe that either. Women have been put in the role of care-givers and nurturers for eons. Maybe this, or the expectation of them fulfilling these roles grooms them for intimacy.

Still, intimacy is essentially sharing and I would expect that to translate across the board. It may be because men are usually the warriors that society expects them to be more defensive in one way and more agressive in others, either way makes sharing an unexpected aspect they are, only now, are being expected to demonstrate. This new expectation of society about men goes against their grain so to speak, even if it's society's grain and not their natural inclinations. For example, most male nurses are thought to be gay and therefore judged to have feminine attributes.

On the whole now I sense change in the air. I often see men in public places, and they're takng care of their children, some babes in arms, and when you take care of children you have to show intimacy.

As a child I was sent back and forth between two sets of parents. To insulate myself I set of a kind of Sylvia Plath "Bell Jar" around myself with one set, and allowed myself to grow close only with the other. You can't be intimate with too many people I found out early, it's too much of an emotional investment to spread yourself too thin.

Later I had "intimate" relations with too many women to mention. I thought intimacy was sex. I had issues, bunches of issues,and they were reflected in the women I chose as partners and none of them ever pierced my emotional shield.

Now I'm as old and old can be. I finally found a person I can trust. For me, with trust came intimacy. She's taught me to share my emotions without judgement on her part. It's liberating, and I find, such a thrill to share your thoughts and emotions and ideas and hopes with the same woman you share your bed with. I'm actually happy.

Anyway, about the writing. You have an opportunty in writing to share like a madman. Hemmingway, as was mentioned, did all sorts of masculine things and wrote about them. In some ways I think he was overcompensating. However an unknown audience is like the perfect stranger, one you can share secrets with for the simple reason that in a way you'll never see them again or be judged. It takes confidence to allow yourself to be intimate, to hold both your hands at your sides and say for once in your life, "This is me, take me or leave me." It takes Moxie. But in the end it's liberating. Letting your guard down is as liberating as D day.

That’s nicely put, Steven. It’s also amazing that we’ve lured you out of the Short Story Forum. Great response, amigo. It is liberating, and frightening, and all those wonderful, terrifying things. Congratulations on working through all that, you old fart!

[Jack of Hearts]

Here's a two month update about intimacy. This is the most painful thing this reader has ever done (in terms of emotional pain anyways). But it's the most important thing he's ever done in his entire life. This is not exaggeration.

It's only getting harder. But this reader wishes the same thing for all of you, if that makes sense.






J

[TurquoiseSunset]

[deleted]