May 9, 2012

[PrinceMyshkin]

Who was the man,
homeless,
allegedly schizophrenic,
who was beaten to death
by the police in California?

Was he somebody's brother,
somebody's son,
the creation of some blind
mute god?

[Hawkman]

Not being privy to the exact circumstances here I'm assuming this has been inspired by a news story. These instances are always shocking and often shrouded in disinformation eminating from "official" sources. I'm assuming there is a specific reason you have ommitted "not" from the question that begins the second stanza, and an "or" before the second. These omissions disguise the question, making it's rhetorical element ambiguous, but still implying that the victim was all three. Very subtle, Prince.

Live and be well - H

[PrinceMyshkin]

Not being privy to the exact circumstances here I'm assuming this has been inspired by a news story. These instances are always shocking and often shrouded in disinformation eminating from "official" sources. I'm assuming there is a specific reason you have ommitted "not" from the question that begins the second stanza, and an "or" before the second. These omissions disguise the question, making it's rhetorical element ambiguous, but still implying that the victim was all three. Very subtle, Prince.

Live and be well - H

This did indeed happen and the man's last few minutes were recorded as he begged for his life, called for his father while the police were crushing his wind-pipe and tasering him.

It hadn't occured to me to use "not" where you suggest it but if it had I'd have rejected it for the hectoring tone it would have introduced. Asking as an innocent question I meant to insinuate could this really have happened to a fellow human being?

[Delta40]

I agree and the questions are that which we do not wish to face while we shake our heads, tut tut tut and say, isn't it awful? I think the word 'force' would have been a powerful wordplay here because of its link to the police and the brutality of the crime. Either way, your piece holds up a mirror to our concience Prince.

[Charles Darnay]

I saw the video the other day and felt sick afterwards.

[qimissung]

Yes, that is these are the questions we must not be afraid to ask ourselves...

[tailor STATELY]

Who was the man,
homeless,
allegedly schizophrenic,
who was beaten to death
by the police in California?

Was he somebody's brother,
somebody's son,
the creation of some blind
mute god?

I found the poem a bit offensive.

Of course he matters to his loved ones. Of course he matters to anyone that shares the belief to love his neighbor as himself. People are outraged as they should be; but this poem speaks sophomorically of the injustice in general IMHO.

Why bring up whether he was the creation of "some blind
mute god"; or of a benevolent, loving, caring God; or otherwise I don't know - though your poem's slant is rather telling.

Disappointed in this one PrinceMyshkin, a rather awkward hand here (something I rarely think of your poems).

Ta (no tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[Jerrybaldy]

Absent I maybe but I couldnt let this one go. The offensive accusation seems to subliminaly revolve around you daring to bring a god into the equation. Cant sit by and let that comment pass. Its bollocks. Its a godsquad response under disguise to anything we appparently should not question.

My dog may yet be dyslexic. I doubt that my dog put fossils of dinosaurs to question my belief in dogs, but lassie should be able to write what she wants without comments based upon ridiculous beliefs given credence through our silence.

best wishes
Jerry #2

[tailor STATELY]

@ Jerrybaldy:

Glad I woke you up Jerrybaldy, you've been missed.

I'm not sure if " ridiculous beliefs" is an ad hominem attack on me, or religion in general, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I do value your input and enjoy a lot of your poetry.

My critique was based on the poem.

As to: "The offensive accusation seems to subliminaly (sic) revolve around you daring to bring a god into the equation" - the poem/poet did; I merely asked if it was necessary; seemed rather contentious to me.

For those of faith, of course "some blind mute god" would cause a knee jerk reaction; and those whose thoughts differ will likewise have a similar antipodal gut reaction. The phraseology IMHO was meant to trigger these emotions - and it did. I found the device unnecessary for these reason. This is not proselytizing; and I've never sublimated with anyone to my knowledge - though I do get gassy at times.

The double wammy against God and Country (God, King/Queen, and Country in your neck of the woods) - from my point of view with the afore-mention remarks included - led to "I found the poem a bit offensive"; and that is a rather mild statement IMHO - and one from the heart.

Dyslexic dogs... luv it. Dinosaurs ? Reee-ally ? I believe in dinosaurs/fossils (and dyslexic dogs) and have always been fascinated with them. My learning to read was spurred on by wanting to know what the encyclopedia said about the depictions of the wonderful creatures. My favorite coloring book as a wee lad was one of dinosaurs. I believe in evolution and the evolution of the ideas about dinosaurs ( Feathers !!! Who'd of thunk ? ). I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly... and more. Go figger. I'm open minded to many things. I'm just your normal everyday imperfect person.

I've always enjoyed your quote: "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary, for those who do not, none will suffice". - attributed to Joseph Dunninger (magician/mentalist), and others I believe. Though the original context may be in question, I have found the saying to be an axiom in many disciplines.

I thank you for allowing me my point of view re: the poem and look forward to your "lassie's" remarks.

Best wishes, hope you are well, and a double dose of tarradiddle to get you through the day.

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[Jack of Hearts]

That video was disgusting, heart breaking and bone-chilling.






J

[PrinceMyshkin]

My critique was based on the poem.

As to: "The offensive accusation seems to subliminaly (sic) revolve around you daring to bring a god into the equation" - the poem/poet did; I merely asked if it was necessary; seemed rather contentious to me.

For those of faith, of course "some blind mute god" would cause a knee jerk reaction; and those whose thoughts differ will likewise have a similar antipodal gut reaction. The phraseology IMHO was meant to trigger these emotions - and it did. I found the device unnecessary for these reason.
But which was more offensive: that I attributed this brital act to "God" as the one ultimately responsible for it, or that "God" permitted it?

[miyako73]

I found the poem a bit offensive.

Of course he matters to his loved ones. Of course he matters to anyone that shares the belief to love his neighbor as himself. People are outraged as they should be; but this poem speaks sophomorically of the injustice in general IMHO.

Why bring up whether he was the creation of "some blind
mute god"; or of a benevolent, loving, caring God; or otherwise I don't know - though your poem's slant is rather telling.

Disappointed in this one PrinceMyshkin, a rather awkward hand here (something I rarely think of your poems).

Ta (no tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

If this happens to you and you survive, you will question all gods- from Allah to Jehovah. Poetry is the saddest and meanest enterprise. As it can make you cry and sulk, it can also offend and make you angry. This is the kind of poem which won't make an impact without invoking social (family) or existentialist (god) sense.

[PrinceMyshkin]

If this happens to you and you survive, you will question all gods- from Allah to Jehovah. Poetry is the saddest and meanest enterprise. As it can make you cry and sulk, it can also offend and make you angry. This is the kind of poem which won't make an impact without invoking social (family) or existentialist (god) sense.

Thank you so much for this courageous and in my view intelligent defense. Those who worship "God" for His/Her omnipotence and compassion ought to have the courage and the respect to take Him/Her to task.

[Delta40]

Of course if you have faith, you will be faced with reconcilling how something like this could happen without losing all that you believe in.

[Jerrybaldy]

Always glad to be provocative and always wanted to be quoted complete with a (sic) if I can now get a STET I will die happy. Hell I have always liked you Tailor. But you did................. with hold your tarradiddle from Prince and Dog aside this cannot be allowed to pass, not getting a tarradiddle is a far bigger issue. In the spirit of otherwise perfectly ridiculous people crashing antlers over old books I cannot let this lie unless you give my would be friend a tarra or a diddle or idealy a full tarradiddle.

Yours hoping.
JB

[tailor STATELY]

But which was more offensive: that I attributed this brital (sic) act to "God" as the one ultimately responsible for it, or that "God" permitted it?

If this happens to you and you survive, you will question all gods- from Allah to Jehovah.

I believe in none of the above assertions. I have an understanding of God and His attributes, and my place and purpose in the universe as a child of God, that most do not share - and that's fine with me.


Poetry is the saddest and meanest enterprise. As it can make you cry and sulk, it can also offend and make you angry. This is the kind of poem which won't make an impact without invoking social (family) or existentialist (god) sense.
Agreed. I was never angry, btb; I abjure anger. I've followed your postings miyako73 with great interest and my comments have been tame compared to the tenacity that you show (and good on ya) when you defend your view. I now find myself not only defending my critique but my view on faith as well.


Those who worship "God" for His/Her omnipotence and compassion ought to have the courage and the respect to take Him/Her to task.
From my view, again, no. I have no need to question God - I am that grounded in my faith - which probably takes more courage and is far more respectful IMHO.


Of course if you have faith, you will be faced with reconcilling (sic) how something like this could happen without losing all that you believe in.
I disagree respectfully. Many of different faiths, or lesser faith within their faith, or none might. Those of civil authority sometimes cross the bounds of civility; political authorities too. Stuff happens.

I have a deep respect for the views of those who write poetry and make comments; and rarely do I dissent. I have deep respect for the poet and 99.9% of his poems; but this poem didn't measure up for me. Perhaps one might understand the contentiousness of bear baiting within the written word. Apparently I rose to the occasion. I am sorry if my comments offended.

Full tarradiddle status for the poet PrinceMyshkin; and best wishes to JB.

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[Bar22do]

Who was the man, homeless, allegedly schizophrenic, who was beaten to death by the police in California? Was he somebody's brother, somebody's son, the creation of some blind mute god?

It's a poignant protest worthy of honor, Prince, though I too think G.od has not much to do with what happens, especially since He-She doesn't exist (and therefore can't be blind or mute), according to your Belief.

But I would like you to explain to me in what way it is a poem, for even as I read it aloud it doesn't help. I find it to be a strong statement because it stands for the poor and humiliated, but I need help to discover its poetic elements. Hope you can broaden my knowledge and sensitivity regarding that. Best of all.

[Jerrybaldy]

My thanks tailor. You are a good man in any dogs eyes. Respects to thoughtful Prince. I will go back to sleep. Anybody seen or heard from haunted? Lets hope she is ok.

[ShadowsCool]

I don't think PrinceMyshkin was belittling the man, at least I hope he wasn't; unless I missed something. Was he calling out God? Perhaps. Mocking? Perhaps. I can't read his mind. But I do think as a human he was bringing light to the tragedy that obviously affected him enough to expound on it.

When these sort of things happen I am reminded that life is brutally unfair. And it gives one all the more reason to believe in a God. Not that God should have stopped this or prevented this, cause we know that's not how it works. I am again reminded how callous people can be, the officers who did this.

[Delta40]

I disagree Tailor. People don't dumbly accept It is His Will - although some might we must always allow for that. Faith is put to the test in all manner of ways. To not question it at certain times throughout their lives is presumptious. We are human to say the least.

[miyako73]

Sometimes when I question God, I feel good with myself thinking that I still doubt and that I am not yet a zombie, nor am I a walking robot.

[Silas Thorne]

Thanks PrinceMyshkin for drawing attention to this terrible injustice, which I wasn't aware of until now. I have now seen the video, although I couldn't watch the whole thing, it was too painful for me.

I tend to agree with Bar22 here though. It just doesn't feel like a poem to me, but a piece of snipped rhetoric.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Thanks PrinceMyshkin for drawing attention to this terrible injustice, which I wasn't aware of until now. I have now seen the video, although I couldn't watch the whole thing, it was too painful for me.

I tend to agree with Bar22 here though. It just doesn't feel like a poem to me, but a piece of snipped rhetoric.

This provoked an interesting question to me: can some instance of rhetoric be a "poem" when it leaves its author's control, and yet not be one in the eyes of the majority or even the entirety of readers? This is different from the question whether it is a good or a bad poem.

BTW, your reference to "rhetoric" reminded me of this quotation by Yeats:


"Out of our quarrels with others we make rhetoric. Out of our quarrels with ourseves we make poetry.

Not intended here as a defense of "May 9, 2012".

[PrinceMyshkin]

Who was the man, homeless, allegedly schizophrenic, who was beaten to death by the police in California? Was he somebody's brother, somebody's son, the creation of some blind mute god?

It's a poignant protest worthy of honor, Prince, though I too think G.od has not much to do with what happens, especially since He-She doesn't exist (and therefore can't be blind or mute), according to your Belief.

But I would like you to explain to me in what way it is a poem, for even as I read it aloud it doesn't help. I find it to be a strong statement because it stands for the poor and humiliated, but I need help to discover its poetic elements. Hope you can broaden my knowledge and sensitivity regarding that. Best of all.

Because of some lapse on the part of the site, I wasn't notified of your response when you posted it and wouldn't have known but for Silas Thorne's mention of it (see the preceding).

I don't really have a poetics that I could lay out in detail but as I said in response to Silas T., it was a poem when I completed it but appears to have lost something by the time it reached you, Silas and perhaps some others; but to make intuitively what feels like a poem is the only way I know.

Thank you both for commenting so candidly.

[Amylian]

The world sure has gone mad ):

[MorpheusSandman]

Although I don't share Tailor's philosophical/religious beliefs, I have to agree with him that this seems like a very unsubtle and arbitrary attempt to evoke the universal through the personal. It's not that one can't reach one through the other, but I feel as if this makes too much of a leap without enough justification. It's not The Book of Job or Lycidas that really work to interweave those two polar worlds. Plus, its rhetorical questions seem rather superficial, lacking in the usual subtlety and suggestion I appreciate so much in your poetry, Prince. Even taking God out of the equation, isn't the notion of "somebody's brother/son" etc. seem awfully cliched? Like something I'd expect to hear in a 60 Hippie protest song.

[Bar22do]

Because of some lapse on the part of the site, I wasn't notified of your response when you posted it and wouldn't have known but for Silas Thorne's mention of it (see the preceding).

I don't really have a poetics that I could lay out in detail but as I said in response to Silas T., it was a poem when I completed it but appears to have lost something by the time it reached you, Silas and perhaps some others; but to make intuitively what feels like a poem is the only way I know.

Thank you both for commenting so candidly.
Perhaps you wrote this one as if beyond emotion --- in any case, thanks for relating to my question. Be well.

[hallaig]

It's obviously a poem, why wouldn't it be?
And the opinions expressed are valid even if you don't agree with them. Personally I do, as the only way I have of reconciling the iniquities and random catastrophes of life with the idea of a higher force is to imagine that higher force as powerless, indeed blind and mute.

[Bar22do]

"blind and mute" is different than "powerless". I personally would agree more with "powerless" though how could one attribute any human qualities to G.od.

As to whether it is a poem I asked a genuine question (in an endeavour to reach beyond my own limitations) to which I got a genuine answer (which gave me matter to ponder) - so hopefully all is well for us all and - best of everything to you too, hallaig!

[Silas Thorne]

Thanks Prince for your polite and thoughtful reply. I know we don't always agree on what poetry is since it seems to mean different things to us both, but this is perfectly okay, since everyone has different perceptions and beliefs about writing, and poetry in particular. I'll always try to be candid though, just as you are about my poems. I'm glad you don't mind too much. :)
Regards,
Silas

[cafolini]

Who was that man,
homeless,
allegedly schizophrenic,
beaten to death
by policemen in California?

Was he somebody's brother,
somebody's son,
the creation of some blind
mute god?


Great write, Prince. Obviously poetical. Yet, gossipers could not recognize their own *** if they saw it in the best mirror.
I took the liberty of modifying it to my taste, which does not affect any of your meaning. Only a formal way of putting it.