May / Nobel Winners Reading: My Name is Red by Orhan Pamuk

[Scheherazade]

In May, we will be reading My Name is Red by Orhan Pamuk.

Please post your thoughts and questions in this thread.

[Paulclem]

Aww, what a great book. I've not been able to take part in the discussions much as I've been really busy at work and studying. I've read this one so I might pop in, if you don't mind.

[Dark Muse]

I just have to say that I think that "I Am a Corpse" is about the best opening for a book ever. Naturally I loved it, and I was hooked by the first chapter. I am really enjoying the writing. In some ways the story seems almost like a puzzle, and I cannot wait to see just where it is going.

I enjoy the way in which, thus far each of the chapters are there own little stories, providing different points of views of the characters, though with it all being in the first person it can be confusing knowing who is the one talking.

[mona amon]

I've got this book and haven't read it yet, so I'll be happy to join. :)

[bouquin]

For those of us reading the book in English, do we all have the same translation? Mine is by Erdag M. Göknar.

[mona amon]

Mine too.

[Paulclem]

The only drawback with reading this was my own lack of knowledge of Turkish culture. I did get the strong impression that I wa missing a lot of the cultural references. It's still an amazing book.

[Charles Darnay]

I enjoy the way in which, thus far each of the chapters are there own little stories, providing different points of views of the characters.

Yes! I really fell in love with this narrative style in the chapter "I Am Dog" and then again in "I Am Tree." Moreover, the flow between chapters, how the narrative of one chapter is almost always a part of the previous chapter is really interesting.

Fantastic book so far - although I find myself more absorbed with the writing and the characters in the moment that I am not paying as much attention to the story as a whole. I think the book is like a painting - you have to look closely to uncover everything but when you are done, take a step back and view it as a whole.


The only drawback with reading this was my own lack of knowledge of Turkish culture. I did get the strong impression that I wa missing a lot of the cultural references. It's still an amazing book.

I agree with this. A bit of the politics goes over my head, such as the prophets, which I believe is based in history. Fortunately I have some knowledge of ancient Persian stories, including the story of "Shirin and Husrev" (or what is really, Khosrow and Shirin) that Pamuk references often

[Dark Muse]

Yes! I really fell in love with this narrative style in the chapter "I Am Dog" and then again in "I Am Tree." Moreover, the flow between chapters, how the narrative of one chapter is almost always a part of the previous chapter is really interesting.

That is another thing which I enjoy about the book. I really like the title names, and the fact that it seems most of them start off with these declarations of begining with "I Am {fill in the blank}"



Fantastic book so far - although I find myself more absorbed with the writing and the characters in the moment that I am not paying as much attention to the story as a whole. I think the book is like a painting - you have to look closely to uncover everything but when you are done, take a step back and view it as a whole.

I think that is an interesting observation considering that the story revolves around the art of creating book illustrations. Perhaps that illustray is woven into the way in which the book was crafted. You are right that each of the individual chapters reveals such a fine detail all of its own, it is difficult at times to keep track of where the bits and pieces fit together as a whole to create the bigger picture.

[bouquin]

I just have to say that I think that "I Am a Corpse" is about the best opening for a book ever. Naturally I loved it, and I was hooked by the first chapter. I am really enjoying the writing. In some ways the story seems almost like a puzzle, and I cannot wait to see just where it is going.

I enjoy the way in which, thus far each of the chapters are there own little stories, providing different points of views of the characters, though with it all being in the first person it can be confusing knowing who is the one talking.



Totally agree with you regarding the first chapter, from then on I was grabbed. Have you been to I AM A GOLD COIN (chapter 19)? So droll & so clever! I will never look at a euro cent the same way again!

[Scheherazade]

Considering whether to buy this box set by Pamuk:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orhan-Pamuk-Box-Set-Black/dp/0571236928

Thoughts?

[Dark Muse]

Have you been to I AM A GOLD COIN (chapter 19)? So droll & so clever! I will never look at a euro cent the same way again!

I have not got that far yet. I just finished "I Am Esther" which I loved the chapter. Esther seems like a great character, I wonder if we will get to see more of her. I loved her explanation of the many different ways in which one can read a letter and what is said, and not said.

[Paulclem]

Considering whether to buy this box set by Pamuk:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orhan-Pamuk-Box-Set-Black/dp/0571236928

Thoughts?

Snow was the first book by Orhan Pamuk that i bought a number of years ago. It's one of the few books that I will defintely read again. It concerns a poet who returns to his Turkish hometown from Germany, which gets cut off by winter snow. It was really interesting to read about Pamuk's take on the headscarf issue in Turkey, and other Turkish issues.

My Name is Red is great. I really liked The Black Book too. It's very different from the other two, though, like Red, it concerns a mystery. It;s stuffed full of brilliant description, and the novel is absolutely full of the ordinary things of life in interesting and evocative descriptions of the grungy side of an Istanbul Block.

[bouquin]

The only drawback with reading this was my own lack of knowledge of Turkish culture. I did get the strong impression that I wa missing a lot of the cultural references. It's still an amazing book.


That makes the two of us, that's why I feel like I'm really learning a lot while reading this book.

I've looked up the term effendi - it means "lord" or "master"
I'm still looking for the equivalent of enishte. If somebody can come up with it please.

[Scheherazade]

Snow was the first book by Orhan Pamuk that i bought a number of years ago. It's one of the few books that I will defintely read again. It concerns a poet who returns to his Turkish hometown from Germany, which gets cut off by winter snow. It was really interesting to read about Pamuk's take on the headscarf issue in Turkey, and other Turkish issues.

My Name is Red is great. I really liked The Black Book too. It's very different from the other two, though, like Red, it concerns a mystery. It;s stuffed full of brilliant description, and the novel is absolutely full of the ordinary things of life in interesting and evocative descriptions of the grungy side of an Istanbul Block.Thank you, Paul. :)

I think I will go ahead and order the box-set and read the other two in time as well.

[bouquin]

There's this -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00s54tn

Haven't listened to it yet, will do so after reading book

[aliengirl]

The only drawback with reading this was my own lack of knowledge of Turkish culture. I did get the strong impression that I wa missing a lot of the cultural references. It's still an amazing book.

In fact Pamuk uses a lot of old Persian stories and also draws from Sufism. The relationship between the master painter and his disciples parallels the relation between a Peer (Sufi teacher) and his Murid (disciple). Pamuk uses Turkish version of Persian names which makes recognizing the names somewhat difficult. Nevertheless My Name is Red is a marvelous read.

[Paulclem]

Thanks Aliengirl.

That link to the interview looks good too.

[Dark Muse]

I really enjoyed the three different stories each told by Butterfly, Stork and Olive, in answer to Black's questions about what makes a greater illustrator. I particularly enjoyed, in the story about blindness and memory, the idea about painting the horse, and even if you look at the horse first, you are still drawing the horse of your memory and not the horse you see.

I think the stories within the story gives if an almost fairy tale like feeling particularly with the reoccurring theme of the story of Shirin and Husrev. There are points when the book does remind me of Arabian Nights.

I wonder is there any significance in the fact that there were three questions asked of three individuals whom each responded by telling three different stories?

And on a different subject, I wonder why Esther gave Black's letter to Hasan?

[Charles Darnay]

I really enjoyed the three different stories each told by Butterfly, Stork and Olive, in answer to Black's questions about what makes a greater illustrator. I particularly enjoyed, in the story about blindness and memory, the idea about painting the horse, and even if you look at the horse first, you are still drawing the horse of your memory and not the horse you see.

I think the stories within the story gives if an almost fairy tale like feeling particularly with the reoccurring theme of the story of Shirin and Husrev. There are points when the book does remind me of Arabian Nights.

I wonder is there any significance in the fact that there were three questions asked of three individuals whom each responded by telling three different stories?

And on a different subject, I wonder why Esther gave Black's letter to Hasan?

I also enjoyed the stories - I particularly liked Stork's stories.

I think the grouping of 3s does give it a fairy tale like quality, which may be the point. I am not familiar enough with Islam to know if 3 is as significant a number as it is elsewhere.

I am still trying to figure Esther out. I have not read far enough to solidify my judgement, but based on where I am right now there is a bit of that "Renaissance idea of the Jew" like you find in Merchant of Venice - that is, Jews only care about money. Esther seems to deliver the letter to Hassan for monetary profit (even though she denies it) - but she also regrets doing it after.

That being said, it seems like all "Infidels" are corrupted by money (the Venetians and Franks) - and even some of the miniaturists. Esther seems to fit it with the theme that money is a truly destructive force in this world.

[Dark Muse]

I am still trying to figure Esther out. I have not read far enough to solidify my judgement, but based on where I am right now there is a bit of that "Renaissance idea of the Jew" like you find in Merchant of Venice - that is, Jews only care about money. Esther seems to deliver the letter to Hassan for monetary profit (even though she denies it) - but she also regrets doing it after.

That being said, it seems like all "Infidels" are corrupted by money (the Venetians and Franks) - and even some of the miniaturists. Esther seems to fit it with the theme that money is a truly destructive force in this world.

Perhaps it is all just for the money in spite of her cliams to otherwise.

[Drone]

There's this -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00s54tn

Haven't listened to it yet, will do so after reading book

It is amazing to hear the author talking about the book. I was a little surprised to learn his idea of the Islamic culture as community-based in contrast with the individualistic Western culture. I always thought Turkey as in-between the Western and Asian cultures.

I just started reading the first few chapters and I like the surprising change of narrators and exotic fairy tales.

[aliengirl]

Thanks Aliengirl.

That link to the interview looks good too.


Welcome Paulclem.

I'll check out that interview bouquin. I regret I can't join reading this wonderful novel with all of you. But I'd drop by to see what others think of it.

[bouquin]

Master Osman and the whole lot of artists ,they're all actually extremely conceited, aren't they? The author very effectively brings home this point.

[Dark Muse]

Master Osman and the whole lot of artists ,they're all actually extremely conceited, aren't they? The author very effectively brings home this point.

I was quite amused by all their petty bickering's, and jealousies of each other, and constantly worrying about who was the most skilled, or who had the greatest favor of the master. It does rather contrast with the ideas of humility which are presented within the allegorical stories which are told.

[bouquin]

Don't you just wish that the book came with the illustrations described in it?

[Dark Muse]

I am finding Shekure to be quite irksome, I cannot grasp just what the heck it is she wants, and maybe she herself does not know. But she seems to be playing some game with Black, and I have no conception of just what her feelings may or may not be for him. And as much as she says she despises Hasan she seems to still be keeping her options open with him. She seems to want to get married, and not want to get married.

When her father gives her his blessing to marry Black she refuses wanting to do so, and says she would not marry against her father's will, than lies about her correspondence wit him. First she declares herself to be a married woman still, but a couple sentences later asserts her assurance that her husband is dead.

Is she just hoping what some better prospect will come along then she current suiters, but wants to keep her options open so she will have someone to fall back on if she dose not get a better offer?

[bouquin]

Shekure sure is erratic and fickle, and there's something sly about her at the same time. In chapters 48 & 53 she's at the peak of her powers.

[Charles Darnay]

I'm enjoying how everyone seems to be cast in an "impure" light. There is not one human pov character that is not flawed in one way or another. Even Elegant who we ought to sympathize with because he starts off dead, we begin to see his death as a good thing.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I haven't read any posts here because I don't like risking spoilers, but I'm a hundred pages in and I have one word to describe the book so far: brilliant.

[bouquin]

I'm enjoying how everyone seems to be cast in an "impure" light. There is not one human pov character that is not flawed in one way or another. Even Elegant who we ought to sympathize with because he starts off dead, we begin to see his death as a good thing.




I too appreciate the candid way of portraying the different personalities, with all their character flaws.

I'm now on Chapter 55 - almost done with the book - but I have not yet seen how Elegant's death could be "a good thing."

[Dark Muse]

After reading the chapter "I Am Death" I am quite curious, though it states that it is the illustration of Death speaking, I wondered if it was perhaps not also Death itself as well, perhaps speaking through the illustration. For there was a moment in which Death (the alleged illustration of Death) exhibits a self-awareness of his existence prior to the illustration having actually been created.


"In this manner, they entered into an elevated conversation with double entendre, allusions, puns, obscure references and innuendos, as befit miniaturists who respected both the old masters as well as their own talent. Since it was my existence that was being discussed, I listened intently to the conversation....

So before the illustration of Death was drawn, it was aware of itself. So I wonder if Death itself, and the illustration death are sort of simultaneously speaking here, if in a way they are one in the same.

I had a similar moment with the chapter "I Am Tree" in which though on the end it was the illustration of a tree which was speaking, there were moments in which I wondered if in someway it was also the essence of an actual tree as well.

[Charles Darnay]

I'm now on Chapter 55 - almost done with the book - but I have not yet seen how Elegant's death could be "a good thing."

It is explored in the "I will be called Murderer" chapters. Elegant would have brought around the ruin of Enishte Effendi - at least this is the initial rationale behind it. Whether this would have been the case or not is actually inconsequential.


After reading the chapter "I Am Death" I am quite curious, though it states that it is the illustration of Death speaking, I wondered if it was perhaps not also Death itself as well, perhaps speaking through the illustration. For there was a moment in which Death (the alleged illustration of Death) exhibits a self-awareness of his existence prior to the illustration having actually been created.



So before the illustration of Death was drawn, it was aware of itself. So I wonder if Death itself, and the illustration death are sort of simultaneously speaking here, if in a way they are one in the same.

I had a similar moment with the chapter "I Am Tree" in which though on the end it was the illustration of a tree which was speaking, there were moments in which I wondered if in someway it was also the essence of an actual tree as well.

All the image pov characters (dog, tree, coin, death....) seem to have an awareness that they are an image of what they are, and therefore have knowledge of what they are. There is certainly a play with reality vs. image and the idea that the image is an "impure form" of the real - and the worse the image, the more impure. This comes out most in the character of Death, because the drawing was considerably bad.

[Dark Muse]

It is explored in the "I will be called Murderer" chapters. Elegant would have brought around the ruin of Enishte Effendi - at least this is the initial rationale behind it. Whether this would have been the case or not is actually inconsequential.

But than again in one of the "I Am Called Murderer" chaters the murderer himself explores the possibility that Elegant may have been correct about Enishte (thus suggesting that his ruin would have been justified) and he does consider the possibility that his justification for the murder may be incorrect and that in truth his action was a vile one.

[bouquin]

After reading the chapter "I Am Death" I am quite curious, though it states that it is the illustration of Death speaking, I wondered if it was perhaps not also Death itself as well, perhaps speaking through the illustration. For there was a moment in which Death (the alleged illustration of Death) exhibits a self-awareness of his existence prior to the illustration having actually been created.




I had a similar moment with the chapter "I Am Tree" in which though on the end it was the illustration of a tree which was speaking, there were moments in which I wondered if in someway it was also the essence of an actual tree as well.



Spoiler Warning . . .

It is my understanding that in the chapters of the dog, the tree, Death, Satan, etc. it is the storyteller at the coffeehouse who's speaking. I think he would be the equivalent of our present-day stand-up comic.

from Chapter 56:
... the storyteller ... began plying his trade in the coffeehouse, and one of the miniaturists ... hung a picture on the wall to be amusing; the glib storyteller took notice and, as a joke of his own, began a monologue as if he were the dog in the picture, which met with great success; thenceforth, every night he continued to feature pictures drawn by the master miniaturists and to tell witty tales they whispered into his ear.

[Dark Muse]

I begin to wonder if Shekure is actually aware of the fact that Hasan reads Black's letters.

In "I Am Shekure" Chapter 26

I thought it was a little strange that after writing to Black, when she hears that Esther has come back she already knows, or assumes, that there will also be a letter from Hasan. Why would she expect that Hasan would writer to her at the same time that Black has? And if Hasan regularly writers to her at the exact same time in which Black writers to her, one would think that would become suspicious over time.

And than when she is reading the letters, she does not express any surprise that Hasan mentions the dream she had about her husband's death, which is also spoken of in Black's letter. Hasan appears to be quick reckless in his letter writing and if he frequently refers to things in his letters which are present in Black's letters, you would think Shekure would start to notice and wonder about that.

[bouquin]

I also enjoyed the stories - I particularly liked Stork's stories.

I think the grouping of 3s does give it a fairy tale like quality, which may be the point. I am not familiar enough with Islam to know if 3 is as significant a number as it is elsewhere.

I am still trying to figure Esther out. I have not read far enough to solidify my judgement, but based on where I am right now there is a bit of that "Renaissance idea of the Jew" like you find in Merchant of Venice - that is, Jews only care about money. Esther seems to deliver the letter to Hassan for monetary profit (even though she denies it) - but she also regrets doing it after.

That being said, it seems like all "Infidels" are corrupted by money (the Venetians and Franks) - and even some of the miniaturists. Esther seems to fit it with the theme that money is a truly destructive force in this world.


Esther is wily, too, like Shekure. But Esther is wiser, I think; she has more focus.

[Dark Muse]

I begin to wonder if Shekure is actually aware of the fact that Hasan reads Black's letters.

In "I Am Shekure" Chapter 26

I thought it was a little strange that after writing to Black, when she hears that Esther has come back she already knows, or assumes, that there will also be a letter from Hasan. Why would she expect that Hasan would writer to her at the same time that Black has? And if Hasan regularly writers to her at the exact same time in which Black writers to her, one would think that would become suspicious over time.

And than when she is reading the letters, she does not express any surprise that Hasan mentions the dream she had about her husband's death, which is also spoken of in Black's letter. Hasan appears to be quick reckless in his letter writing and if he frequently refers to things in his letters which are present in Black's letters, you would think Shekure would start to notice and wonder about that.

I spoke too soon and my own question was answered in the book. I just got to the part in which Shekure openly admits that she susspected her letters to Black were being read Hasan.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

About a hundred pages left and my one word description has changed: BORING.

[bouquin]

What has made you judge the book as boring?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, like I said, the first hundred pages had me hooked. The story was moving at a good place, the narrative style had me captivated. And the writing is beautiful. But as I went along, things seemed to have stalled. It seemed like any sort of plot progression took the place of philosophical meandering and/or long and drawn out descriptions of art. At one point I think the descriptions of paintings went on for four or five pages.

Don't get me wrong, the descriptions were beautifully written--the whole book was--but I couldn't have cared less, honestly. Those first chapters had me reading because I wanted to find out what happened next, but by the end, I was slogging my way through it as if the book were a chore, and honestly. Skimming a lot of the sections that seemed plotless.

It's not that I think it's a bad book--I can very easily see how it could be seen as a masterpiece. Plus, I'm sure there's heaps of symbolism and allegory that an analytic reading would reveal, not to mention a knowledge of Turkish culture. That being said, I didn't enjoy it.

Apart from the drawn on descriptory section, I find an even bigger reason I didn't like the book--I didn't give one rat's *** about any of the characters. It seemed either I disliked them or didn't have any feelings for them one way or another. Black could've died at the end nd my emotional reaction would've been "meh." Plus, Shekure was a loathsome, mysigonistically portray character (the writing of her character gave me the distinct impression that the author really has no business writing women, unless he was going for the selfish, vain, naive, and all around unpleasant approach to writing Shekure), not to mention her incredibly obnoxious kids (seriously, I was rooting for the author to kill them off). Black was a lovestruck idiot, a shallow man who made it clear that he only loved Shekure for her looks, and the rest of the principal characters were creepy pederasts.

So, yeah, that's why I didn't like it. 5/10.

[bouquin]

I actually agree with most of what you're saying. My favorite characters were the Gold Coin and Satan! I would have preferred several more chapters devoted to them rather than to the dubious miniaturists. But at the same time I also liked the way Shekure, her two boys and the other characters were portrayed with all their shortcomings, doubts, and flaws. They were more interesting that way, I think, although not necessarily endearing. Black sure did not come out as a dashing, dark and handsome knight in shining armor!

I also felt that the descriptions of the works of art and the stories of kings and concubines, wars and warriors became tedious and repetitive after a while. If I had known where to skip certain chapters I could have done so and still not have missed much on main thread of the story itself.

[Dark Muse]

I have to admit personally I enjoyed the descriptions of art, and the philosophies and theories relating to art. Though Art History was one of my favorite classes so maybe that is part of why. I do have a deep interest in art and look books which center around art. But I loved the chapters of Master Osman and hearing his own theories relating to art, and his analogies, and I liked the chapters dealing with the miniaturists. Also loved the chapters depicting the illustrations themselves. I loved I Am Red and also thought that I Am A Horse was great.

I really liked the way in which it seemed the author was toying with the idea of art imitating life and life imitating art, and how the lines between art and reality were blurred. Particularly when it came to the chapters with the illustrations in which it seemed as if the illustration seemed to be both an illustration as well as representing the spirit or essence of the actual thing of which it was an illustration of. And than there was the ongoing debate about depicting something from real life within art. So it seamed there was a lot of blurring of lines of what really is real.

I also enjoyed the murder mystery aspect of the book, for me where it seemed to drag a bit, is when it came to the story of Shekure and Black, as honestly I did not really much care, nor have much interest in their romance, and the chapters which dealt with them were the slowest for me to get through. Though one of my favorite human characters was Esther. I found her quite entertaining and I liked see her perspective on things.

[Charles Darnay]

So I just finished the book. I became distracted with other books along the way - such is how it goes.

I agree with DM in that the musings on art were the highlights of this book. I love the language and the philosophy of art and imitation.

As far as the plot goes - I found that it went downhill after [SPOILER ALERT] Enishte's death. Things started to become dull and monotonous, with the exception of the parts dealing with aesthetic philosophy.

I found that by the end I liked Shekure's character. Sometimes you pitied her, and sometimes you hated her, but she was the most dynamic out of the characters.

[Dark Muse]

So I just finished the book. I became distracted with other books along the way - such is how it goes.

I agree with DM in that the musings on art were the highlights of this book. I love the language and the philosophy of art and imitation.

As far as the plot goes - I found that it went downhill after [SPOILER ALERT] Enishte's death. Things started to become dull and monotonous, with the exception of the parts dealing with aesthetic philosophy.

I found that by the end I liked Shekure's character. Sometimes you pitied her, and sometimes you hated her, but she was the most dynamic out of the characters.

Though I am thoroughly enjoying the book, and I cannot say there is a point in which I have come to dislike it, or like it less, I agree that it does seem as if it slows down a bit, and drags in parts, after the point of the murder.

In regards to Shekure, I myself found that after his marriage to her, I started to like Black more than I previously did, because I sympathized with him for being married to her. It seemed to be a case of careful what you wish for.

Frankly I think it would have served her right if both Hasan and Black became fed up with her and left her to herself.

[Scheherazade]

I haven't finished the book but does Shekure remind you of Becky Sharp of Vanity Fair in some ways?

[Dark Muse]

I haven't finished the book but does Shekure remind you of Becky Sharp of Vanity Fair in some ways?

I think that Becky Sharp was a bit more strong willed, and less wishy-washy. Shekure does not seem to know what she truly wants, while Becky had a clearly defined goal she was willing to do anything to achieve. Shekure is scheming and deceptive, manipulative, but still comes across as weak, or tries to use weakness in her ploys. Becky was much more mercenary and determined.

[Scheherazade]

I agree with your points but we have to keep in mind the different societies they were living in as well.

I think it is very interesting from *gasp* feminist point of view that women in 16th century Istanbul were able to have a power to determine their own fate -as well as others around them. I think during the Ottoman history, there has been cases where the wives and mothers of the Sultans had taken the matters into their own hands without being obvious about it.

Considering the kind of Islamic society they must be living in, I find this (and Shekure's determination to control her own fate) very interesting.

[Charles Darnay]

That's another reason why I like Shekure. She has no power - she is completely reliant on her father and than on Black to protect her and her children, but she doesn't let them think that. She is so determined to control everything around her.

[Dark Muse]

That's another reason why I like Shekure. She has no power - she is completely reliant on her father and than on Black to protect her and her children, but she doesn't let them think that. She is so determined to control everything around her.

Maybe my opinion will change when I finish the book but at this point, I cannot say I have ever truly felt that she was in fact attempting to control her own fate, I saw her really as just being vain, and indecisive, with a grass is greener on the other side outlook.

I think she enjoys being admired, and having her suitors fight over her, and she is unwilling to completely let go of either one of them. If she is with Black, than she imagines she is in love with Hasan, if she is with Hasan than she imagines she is in love with Black.

And maybe playing hard to get, even after she had already married, and withholding sex , is a way in which she insures they will continue to desire her.

[neilgee]

I'm late joining this discussion but I did vote so I felt honour-bound to read this book.

I got the impression that this book is like a slideshow where various pictures are shone onto a screen whilst a narrative voice interprets the pictures for us. Even if that doesn't apply to all the chapters it helps me if I imagine it that way.

I must admit I was a little bewildered before that point of view came to me, especially by the chapter from the perspective of the dog. Whoever heard of a dog - even a literary dog - who was almost exclusively interested in human politics (using the word in its broadest sense)? I was wondering why the author was not even trying to be remotely realistic or meet the reader halfway in the willing suspension of disbelief.

I find the book veers between brilliance and incomprehensibility, I'm not one of the art-inspired readers but I can appreciate a thoroughly thought-out artistic outlook on life if the artist genuinely, convincingly believes in it , but I'm not quite finished yet so the jury is out on that one.

Please bear in mind I am not Turkish, have never visited Turkey nor am likely to in the near future, so I don't know to what extent that might invalidate any opinions I have :)

[Dark Muse]

I must admit I was a little bewildered before that point of view came to me, especially by the chapter from the perspective of the dog. Whoever heard of a dog - even a literary dog - who was almost exclusively interested in human politics (using the word in its broadest sense)? I was wondering why the author was not even trying to be remotely realistic or meet the reader halfway in the willing suspension of disbelief.

When it comes to chapters like I am the Dog, which at first seem to be rather surreal and fantastic, it is reveled later on in the story that these chapters are actually being narrated by the Storyteller in the coffee house, and so it is not in fact an actual dog, or an illustration of a dog who is speaking, but it is a person telling us a story of his personal perspective on the illustration of the dog, of which I belief is in fact said to be hanging in the coffee house.

[neilgee]

When it comes to chapters like I am the Dog, which at first seem to be rather surreal and fantastic, it is reveled later on in the story that these chapters are actually being narrated by the Storyteller in the coffee house, and so it is not in fact an actual dog, or an illustration of a dog who is speaking, but it is a person telling us a story of his personal perspective on the illustration of the dog, of which I belief is in fact said to be hanging in the coffee house.

Thanx Dark Muse I havn't quite got that far yet, no wonder the book is bewildering in parts, but I'll keep plugging away. :)

[Dark Muse]

*****Possible Spoiler*****



At the end of the book is Shekure implying that Orhan was the narrator of the whole story?


Above all don't be taken in by Orhan if he's drawn Black more absentminded than he is, made our lives harder than they were, Sheket worse and me prettier and harsher than I am. For the sake of a delightful and convincing story, there isn't a lie Orhan whodunit deign to tell.

[Charles Darnay]

I took this to be Orhan the author as opposed to Orhan the boy. There are several metafictional flourishes throughout the book, and the reader is constantly being addressed, mainly by Shekure, Black, and the non-human narrators.

[Dark Muse]

I took this to be Orhan the author as opposed to Orhan the boy. There are several metafictional flourishes throughout the book, and the reader is constantly being addressed, mainly by Shekure, Black, and the non-human narrators.

I did not consider that, hmm though I wonder than does Orhan the boy in fact represent Orhan the author? Is that his pressence within the book?

[Scheherazade]

Please bear in mind I am not Turkish, have never visited Turkey nor am likely to in the near future, so I don't know to what extent that might invalidate any opinions I have :)I don't think a knowledge of Turkish culture is necessary to follow the story but a little understanding of the historical developments taking place during the time of the story might be useful.

The Islamic artists seem to have struggled coming to terms with the option of creating art reflecting the world as it is seen and interpreted by them. They were happy to recreate the stories (fictional accounts) but the factual so making a portrait of someone living became a point of struggle for them. So much so that, there was violence against those who were willing to leave traditional methods behind.

[neilgee]

I don't think a knowledge of Turkish culture is necessary to follow the story but a little understanding of the historical developments taking place during the time of the story might be useful.

The Islamic artists seem to have struggled coming to terms with the option of creating art reflecting the world as it is seen and interpreted by them. They were happy to recreate the stories (fictional accounts) but the factual so making a portrait of someone living became a point of struggle for them. So much so that, there was violence against those who were willing to leave traditional methods behind.

Thankyou, i have come up against that factor being used in discussions (not this one, thankfully) as making one reader's opinions of more merit than another's...so without claiming any in-depth contact with the subject the historical argument you point to seems to be still prevalent in many aspects of Islamic culture.

As the novel goes on I have to say that to my surprise the artistic debates become more interesting.