the holy ghost/the holy spirit

[cacian]

I am trying to understand the meaning of the holy ghost.
what is the ghost? or what is it refering to?

[ShadowsCool]

I am trying to understand the meaning of the holy ghost.
what is the ghost? or what is it refering to?

The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and is Almighty God. The Holy Spirit is seen as one Person of the Triune God, who revealed His Holy Name YHWH to his people Israel, sent His Eternally Begotten Son Jesus to save them from God's wrath, and sent the Holy Spirit to sanctify and give life to his Church. The Triune God manifests as three Persons in One Divine Being called the Godhead, the Divine Essence of God.

To try and get a grasp on this, I refer the following:

So then, you have the Lord God of all, and, you have that Lord God in the flesh (Jesus Christ), and, you have the Spirit of that Lord God (the Holy Spirit), but they are all One. The three; God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same one entity, that being the Ever Living Almighty Lord God. To understand how this can be so, look at it like this:

You may be a father to your child, you also may be a husband to your wife, and to your employees at work you are a boss. But you are not three people, yet all three of those people are the one you (father, husband and boss). When you are at work, you do not cease being boss when your wife walks in whom knows you as husband. Likewise, you do not cease being husband to your wife when your children come home and call you father. Well, the same goes with God, only on a much grander scale.

The following is a great primer if you care to know. It's really in depth but a worthy read for someone wishing to understand the Godhead in general. If not then they can just skip it.
http://www.biblestudysite.com/trinity.htm#5

[cacian]

Hey ShadowsCool this is great thank you very much. I shall have a read and get back to you if I have any more questions. I hope you do not mind.
One thing came up is the word
'ghost' f
from my understanding and as a general knowlege a ghost means dead. one has to be dead to be one if ever there is one.
The other issue I have with the word 'ghost' is that it signal to me the concept witchcraft and boudism because these are the two concepts that believe in spirits and ghosts.
Christianity does not believe in witchcraft and is historically knownto have burnt at the suspected witches or those practiced witchcraft.
The question here
how does a ghost concept enters christianity and makes a holy concept?
Isn't the integration of the word ghost in the trinity suggesting/saying it does believe in spirits and ghosts?

[usman.khawar]

Interesting posts, shadows cool, full explanation of the concept of trinity. But I m still confused to totally grasp of the concept so i m responding.

You said Father son and holy spirit are actually one known as Godhood or Lord God.
The example you quoted “You may be a father to your child, you also may be a husband to your wife, and to your employees at work you are a boss. But you are not three people “ ......................


the example is good to explain a person dealing in three places but its irrelevant and it seems odd when u are going to explain the trinity concept that what is the relation of three (Father,Son, Holyspirit) with each other. When we see that you are the father, u r the father of ur children, not YOURSELF you cannot say that u r children of your own self. if u r boss then u must have some employess which are not “You”, same if u r husband of someone then someone is another being that is ur wife, you can b husband at one time or is it possible that u can also be the wife of urself :)

if u say that this trinity is actually one then question arises. Like you said “So then, you have the Lord God of all, and, you have that Lord God in the flesh (Jesus Christ), and, you have the Spirit of that Lord God (the Holy Spirit), but they are all One. The three; God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same one entity, that being the Ever Living Almighty Lord God.”

God in the flesh (jesus Christ) is the son of himself (Lord God, as they are one)?
God jesus Christ is the father of himself (as He is Lord God in the flesh) ?

So there is a series of question but hold on till I get the answers of these..

[ShadowsCool]

How does a ghost concept enter christianity and make a holy concept?
Isn't the integration of the word ghost in the trinity suggesting/saying it does believe in spirits and ghosts?

The differences are more linguistic than theological. I refer this page for a very clear explanation on the history of the word usage of Ghost & Spirit. It has nothing to do with witchcraft or the like.

http://www.adishakti.org/_/holy_spirit_or_holy_ghost.htm

[togre]

The change from "Holy Ghost" to "Holy Spirit" was a case where English usage changed so a word which in the 18th century may have accurately translated pnuemata or ruhak was no longer accurate in the late 20th century.

Who speaks of "giving up the ghost" anymore? Usage changes.

[ShadowsCool]

if u say that this trinity is actually one then question arises. Like you said “So then, you have the Lord God of all, and, you have that Lord God in the flesh (Jesus Christ), and, you have the Spirit of that Lord God (the Holy Spirit), but they are all One. The three; God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same one entity, that being the Ever Living Almighty Lord God.”

God in the flesh (jesus Christ) is the son of himself (Lord God, as they are one)?
God jesus Christ is the father of himself (as He is Lord God in the flesh) ?

So there is a series of question but hold on till I get the answers of these..

Well first off I do refer to this link down below for the best in depth explanation there is regarding the Trinity. It is a bit long but I think well worth the read for someone trying to even grasp its meaning.

As you may know, this is one of the cornerstone belief's in mainstream Christianity, and one that is poorly understood by most people in general. The reason is because explaining the concept of God to anyone is a huge challenge. We are talking about a divine force. One who is way above our intellect to even consider. And that is no cope out, just the truth.

This 'concept' of the Trinity has held up for 2,000 years and is sound theology. Actually it goes back as long as the first words were written in the Bible. It just became fully developed with the New Testament. Many cults today deny the Trinity much as many people can't phantom it. But let's face it, how do you explain an All Mighty Powerful Force that is omnipresent? It boggles the mind. Yet we can barely grasp it, to know it is real, without understanding it.

One thing I do understand from reading the scripture is, you have the Lord God of all, and, you have that Lord God in the flesh (Jesus Christ], and, you have the Spirit of that Lord God the Holy Spirit, but they are all One. The three; God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same one entity, that being the Ever Living Almighty Lord God.

Some may say that it is hard to comprehend how God can be in three different places [in Heaven, coming down descending "like a Dove", and Jesus on the earth] all at the same time; and I certainly would agree. But allot of things were done simply so that we would understand. For the Holy Spirit needn't have visibly [appearing like a Dove] come down and rested upon Jesus as was done in the above Scripture, for Jesus was begotten of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit was within Him, it was His Holy Spirit:

A passage from that link:
"It is difficult, yea impossible even, for us to fully comprehend when Jesus prayed to God. For Jesus was God, yet He spoke with Himself: "These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee" John 17:1], but in another place Jesus said: "I and my Father are one" [John 10:30], and again He said: "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father...I am in the Father, and the Father in me...the Father that dwelleth in me..." [John 14:9-10]. So why then should Jesus pray to Himself unless it was for our benefit."

My understanding of this is God is the Father; God is the Son; and God is the Holy Spirit and they are all One. As hard as that is to grasp with our comparably feeble minds. It is not 3 Gods, but 1 God in 3 different manifestations of the Godhead.

It is impossible for us to wrap our minds around the concept. That does not mean it is not true. God is such a higher force that anything is possible with God. Because He is right in front of you yet you cannot see Him. This is difficult for the human mind to conceive, much yet embrace. This is why there is much derision regarding the Trinity and God in general. People want something they can see and hug. I refer this site for anyone interested in further perusal of the subject :


http://www.biblestudysite.com/trinity.htm

[usman.khawar]

The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and is Almighty God. The Holy Spirit is seen as one Person of the Triune God, who revealed His Holy Name YHWH to his people Israel, sent His Eternally Begotten Son Jesus to save them from God's wrath, and sent the Holy Spirit to sanctify and give life to his Church. The Triune God manifests as three Persons in One Divine Being called the Godhead, the Divine Essence of God.

To try and get a grasp on this, I refer the following:

So then, you have the Lord God of all, and, you have that Lord God in the flesh (Jesus Christ), and, you have the Spirit of that Lord God (the Holy Spirit), but they are all One. The three; God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same one entity, that being the Ever Living Almighty Lord God. To understand how this can be so, look at it like this:

You may be a father to your child, you also may be a husband to your wife, and to your employees at work you are a boss. But you are not three people, yet all three of those people are the one you (father, husband and boss). When you are at work, you do not cease being boss when your wife walks in whom knows you as husband. Likewise, you do not cease being husband to your wife when your children come home and call you father. Well, the same goes with God, only on a much grander scale.

The following is a great primer if you care to know. It's really in depth but a worthy read for someone wishing to understand the Godhead in general. If not then they can just skip it.
http://www.biblestudysite.com/trinity.htm#5


Interesting posts, shadows cool, full explanation of the concept of trinity. But I m still confused to totally grasp the concept so i m responding.

You said Father son and holy spirit are actually one known as Godhood or Lord God.
The example you quoted “You may be a father to your child, you also may be a husband to your wife, and to your employees at work you are a boss. But you are not three people “ ......................


the example is good to explain a person dealing in three places but its irrelevant and it seems odd when u are going to explain the trinity concept that what is the relation of three (Father,Son, Holyspirit) with each other. When we see that you are the father, u r the father of ur children, not YOURSELF you cannot say that u r children of your own self. if u r boss then u must have some employess which are not “You”, same if u r husband of someone then someone is another being that is ur wife, you can b husband at one time or is it possible that u can also be the wife of urself

if u say that this trinity is actually one then question arises. Like you said “So then, you have the Lord God of all, and, you have that Lord God in the flesh (Jesus Christ), and, you have the Spirit of that Lord God (the Holy Spirit), but they are all One. The three; God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same one entity, that being the Ever Living Almighty Lord God.”

God in the flesh (jesus Christ) is the son of himself (Lord God, as they are one)?
God jesus Christ is the father of himself (as He is Lord God in the flesh) ?

So there is a series of question but hold on till I get the answers of these..

[ShadowsCool]

I think I explained it with my post. Thanks.

[usman.khawar]

There is no reasoning i found in the answer of urs. but thanks for responding.you tried to explain By giving argument from unauthentic source which bottom line is this that human are not able to understand the relation between God and jesus Christ or holy spirit?..my dear it was not so difficult but human themself made it difficult! which bible is the exact one in which there is no human mixing? errors and contradictions and irrational approach? I beleive and there is no doubt in my heart and mind that bible was God's book but i also know that God told us that its not saved now as there is human mixing so come towards last book if you want to know directly from Lord. what is the use to read that kind of book which authticity is doubtful from which we have to be very careful to pick the exact thing? If anyone like to challenge that this last book has also been changed then point towards the change or even point at any single mistake.
i wrote a lot of verses as well explaining the begining of earth, life, universe etc so that who have uptodate knowledge of sciences like cosmology, biology, etc can get the point. Who can be the One who is giving those kind of exact informations fourteen hundred years ago?
i'll write actually copy paste some of verses from Quran about Mariyam and Jeses Christ explaing everything very rationaly and in full simplicity which every human can understand. if anyone like to read himself there is a full chapter in Quran about it http://www.harunyahya.com/bilgi/kurani-kerim#verses_container and there are some verses about it in other chapters well.. but i selected some verses from this chapter and will share with u guys..

Regards

[ShadowsCool]

Excuse me, but you asked me a question and I gave you an answer. Now you mention the Quran. What's that have to do with it? According to the Quran Jesus was a prophet. According to the Bible He was God. I don't get how you say the Bible was tampered with. By whom? And how do you know the Quran has it right? It's your thoughts against mine.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

I am trying to understand the meaning of the holy ghost.
what is the ghost? or what is it refering to?

I'm thinking the "Ghost" & "Spirit" is just a linguistic thing. A "Ghost" can be considered a "Spirit" and vice-versa.

[cacian]

I'm thinking the "Ghost" & "Spirit" is just a linguistic thing. A "Ghost" can be considered a "Spirit" and vice-versa.

Hi Sephiroth
I do not consider 'ghost' and 'spirit' to be the same for the reasons that usually a 'ghost' and according to people and general knowledge is something you see. You have to have seen a figure/image to call it ghost.
A 'spirit' however (not to compare with spirits/drinks) is something you do not see hence the word spirit/spirited away.

[BienvenuJDC]

Hi Sephiroth
I do not consider 'ghost' and 'spirit' to be the same for the reasons that usually a 'ghost' and according to people and general knowledge is something you see. You have to have seen a figure/image to call it ghost.
A 'spirit' however (not to compare with spirits/drinks) is something you do not see hence the word spirit/spirited away.

Yes, but the difference wasn't the same from the perspective of the various translators. Throughout the New Testament the word used in the original language was pneuma which literally means wind. The Holy Spirit (Ghost) was never seen in any kind of form, but only His affect in His work was ever seen. So, from your perspective of the words, the correct translation would be "Spirit". However, in the original language the words are synonymous.

[cacian]

Yes, but the difference wasn't the same from the perspective of the various translators. Throughout the New Testament the word used in the original language was pneuma which literally means wind. The Holy Spirit (Ghost) was never seen in any kind of form, but only His affect in His work was ever seen. So, from your perspective of the words, the correct translation would be "Spirit". However, in the original language the words are synonymous.

Hi Bien and thank you again for this post.
I am not familiar much with the movement that led from the Old becoming New Testament but it sounds interesting.
Pneuma I must look up as I have never heard of it until now.

[BienvenuJDC]

Hi Bien and thank you again for this post.
I am not familiar much with the movement that led from the Old becoming New Testament but it sounds interesting.
Pneuma I must look up as I have never heard of it until now.

Use a Greek lexicon for "pneuma". It is where we get our words for pneumatic (air powered).

The Old Testament was written in the Hebrew language primarily for the Jews. The first five books were written by Moses after the Exodus from Egypt. This was also the establishment of Judaism (which is the Old Covenant, or Testament with Israel). The last of the Old Testament was written about 444 BC.

The New Testament (which is what the Old Testament was prophesying toward) was written in the Greek (which due to Alexander's conquests was the prevailing language over all the known world). This was to establish the church (and Christianity).

[usman.khawar]

Excuse me, but you asked me a question and I gave you an answer. Now you mention the Quran. What's that have to do with it? According to the Quran Jesus was a prophet. According to the Bible He was God. I don't get how you say the Bible was tampered with. By whom? And how do you know the Quran has it right? It's your thoughts against mine.

i feel no pleasure to make u angry my dear nor i like clash of thoughts in such a way. i was/am still confuse to understand the trinity concept. i just said that i didnt find any reasoning in ur answer,as u also said it is impossible to understand the fact how a son can b father of himself or vice versa. anyway leave it.

by whom? It is interesting to note that the religion of Islam is unique in its acceptance of the continuation and development of the divine message throughout the ages. It is the only religion which has claimed to be the culmination of the religion of God, and has strongly maintained the utmost of reverence and respect of all other prophets and their religions. Islam did not take issue with the message of other religions but with the accuracy of the facts and data that was being presented as God’s religion. God was aware that all the previous messages that He had revealed had weaknesses in the way they were recorded and passed down to future generations.

The greatest flaw was that the text and message of God was not verified and transcribed straight away. This meant that they were not repeated in a way that would preserve their authenticity and accuracy amongst a wide-ranging number of people. In fact they were collated and collected after a considerable lapse of time. This made it possible for the nobles and rulers to utilise the religious ‘text’ for their own purposes by misinterpreting or corrupting the meaning of certain passages. Despite this the Quran has referred to these scriptures as God’s holy books and declared the previous prophets as its dearest people. However, the Quran constantly refers to the continuous corruption of these divine books. But why? Suppositional texts and personal reflections have no credibility at all when compared to scientific facts. However, this All-Knowing and All-Aware Being (God) knew how Man would think in the future and how he would act. After all, it was He who had structured actions, situations and events. From the origin of the cosmos until its final outcome, God’s master plan (Lauh-e-Mahfooz) had not overlooked the presence of modern Man. His technological achievements, innovations, philosophy and outlook on life, social and economic lifestyles were all contained within the pages of the Guarded Tablet.

anyone can understand with little more research. why each bible differs with other bible ?

how do u know the Quran has it right? well there is some samples are saved since 14 hundred years not only in Muslim countries but also in Soviet Russia. they are all same.The statistical data of God did exist. It did not consist of one or two words and phrases. It was not found in traditional myths and folk tales. Nor did it come in the style of classical fictional literature. Instead, it existed in the form of a masterly manuscript which had been completely preserved. Each comma, word and sentence within it was the word of God; every thought was that of God. Whatever it conveyed was a direct inspiration from God. Its style and mode of expression was utterly unique and totally divine. This was the same God who declared that His previous scriptures had become corrupted and no longer had the seal of reliability and credibility.

How absurd is it then for modern intellectuals to rely upon the data which God Himself has declared as unreliable and use it as a basis for attacking the concept of God! Is it intellectual bigotry which has led the academics of today to repeatedly ignore the text which God has put forward as His proof and evidence? Yet they persist on using those texts, from which He has withdrawn His seal of approval, as incontrovertible evidence. What reason did we have to pursue this flawed approach in relation to God and promote this tragedy of knowledge and understanding? Thinkers such as Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein, and Karl Marx all fell victim to this way of thinking. These great names of the modern age were accomplices in an intellectual and scientific deceit. It seems that the desires of the age compelled them to intellectual sloth and dishonesty, or perhaps they did not regard the question of God worthy of any importance. If that was the case, their approach was more flawed than using unreliable evidence in relation to God. Perhaps these ‘champions’ of science and philosophy were terrified of discovering the true reality of the cosmos. If not, then they had completely traded their services in exchange of worldly status.

The Quran is not an abstract concept or a hypothesis which should be easily overlooked by all these intellectuals. It is preserved in the memory of a vast number of people, it adorns the pages of a million books or more, it is used in the courts as the final arbiter of justice and fairness in the lives of many people, and it is found in the homes of over one billion people. This data of God was not easy to miss or overlook. Surely, its status could not be ignored when deciding the most important issue related to human life.

[cacian]

Use a Greek lexicon for "pneuma". It is where we get our words for pneumatic (air powered).

The Old Testament was written in the Hebrew language primarily for the Jews. The first five books were written by Moses after the Exodus from Egypt. This was also the establishment of Judaism (which is the Old Covenant, or Testament with Israel). The last of the Old Testament was written about 444 BC.

The New Testament (which is what the Old Testament was prophesying toward) was written in the Greek (which due to Alexander's conquests was the prevailing language over all the known world). This was to establish the church (and Christianity).

Wow I never knew Greek was the prevailing language all over the world.
You must be talking of the christian world right?!

[BienvenuJDC]

Wow I never knew Greek was the prevailing language all over the world.
You must be talking of the christian world right?!

Alexander made an 11 year conquest around 333 BC. I'm not sure how far into Europe he went, maybe only as far as Rome (which only existed as a city at that time). But he went as far as India, and his soldiers just didn't want to keep going.

[Pendragon]

Ghost in the Bible is not referring to a dead person, but the living essence. Thus when someone in the Bible died, it was said that they "gave up the ghost", in other words their living essence left their body.

The Holy Ghost is the living essence of God within the life of the believer.

For what it is worth, here is what I believe about the Godhead:

God created the earth, and gave man a simple code to live by, which man broke. This created a gulf between God and man. Even the Law and sacrificing could not completely heal the wound.

The Bible states that when Christ's birth was prophesied, it was "He shall be called Emmanuel, being interpreted, "God WITH Us". Before in the Old Testament, it was "God Above Us". God himself became man, to live as we live, and to experience death for our sins and heal the gap between God and Man.

When Christ rose from the dead and returned to heaven, that essence of God, The Holy Ghost, became "God in Us", the indwelling, quickening spirit.

Think of it as a Peter Sellers movie. He usually played several parts. Regardless of the role, the actor was the same.

Regardless of the position, Above, With, or In us, there remains but one God.

God bless

Pen

[ShadowsCool]

God created the earth, and gave man a simple code to live by, which man broke. This created a gulf between God and man. Even the Law and sacrificing could not completely heal the wound.

The Bible states that when Christ's birth was prophesied, it was "He shall be called Emmanuel, being interpreted, "God WITH Us". Before in the Old Testament, it was "God Above Us". God himself became man, to live as we live, and to experience death for our sins and heal the gap between God and Man.

When Christ rose from the dead and returned to heaven, that essence of God, The Holy Ghost, became "God in Us", the indwelling, quickening spirit.

Think of it as a Peter Sellers movie. He usually played several parts. Regardless of the role, the actor was the same.

Regardless of the position, Above, With, or In us, there remains but one God.

God bless

Pen

Exactly Pen. Well explained. Most people just don't get what you just explained; let alone believe it.

[Buh4Bee]

One thing that makes the concept of the Holy Ghost difficult to grasp on a concrete level is the fact that the Holy Ghost seems to be so far removed from our everyday experience. It is an abstract concept that is easy to file away under OTHER. But you can understand the holy ghost as an physical experience during prayer. Often those of faith, in the act of prayer or worship, are touch or moved by the spirit- allowing them to have a very visceral religious feeling or experience. Also, another way to look at the Holy Ghost is as a form of the collective conscious, although this is not widely accepted doctrine.

[ShadowsCool]

One thing that makes the concept of the Holy Ghost difficult to grasp on a concrete level is the fact that the Holy Ghost seems to be so far removed from our everyday experience. It is an abstract concept that is easy to file away under OTHER. But you can understand the holy ghost as an physical experience during prayer. Often those of faith, in the act of prayer or worship, are touch or moved by the spirit- allowing them to have a very visceral religious feeling or experience. Also, another way to look at the Holy Ghost is as a form of the collective conscious, although this is not widely accepted doctrine.

So God (the Holy Ghost) is abstract to people because their minds dictate that he stay abstract to them. Their hearts are closed to any and all openings to the Divine. You cannot reason with someone who already has their "smart minds" made up.

Having said that, I can turn it around and say the only reason we are here is because of the Holy Spirit. And if not for Him we'd be dead already. You see, I can argue that God sustains everything and allows everything good to happen. Every good moment in your life. The sun, the time you felt joy or peace. Every good event that you may reflect on. In other words just being alive. I can make that argument. And I can make the argument that everything bad happens because of man. Something an atheist would scoff at because he can't see God. So he don't believe. He allows his little mind to dictate his belief's. And believe me our minds are small. We are kinda dumb actually, yet we believe we are so much more.

Take for instance pride. Who don't have it? I'd say we all do. It rages within us. We like to think we are right about things. Not everything, but almost everything we do. It's called our defense mechanism. The (me, me, me) in man. In reality I can argue that we are nothing without this Ghost that people deny exist. I can argue that God chooses to deal with us this way. That He's so much higher than us, that we cannot physically see Him. After all this all makes sense when you realize that man is fallen and is filled with himself. I can argue that.

[Pendragon]

Exactly Pen. Well explained. Most people just don't get what you just explained; let alone believe it.

This is unfortunately correct. It doesn't just apply to the Atheist, who cannot accept that there is a God, nor to the Agnostic, who isn't really sure. Many Christians cannot accept this, because they believe that there are three separate persons in the Godhead, instead of one God who manifested in three positions.

However, those of the Jewish faith, while they don not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, believe that when the Messiah comes He will BE God in the flesh. (If I have this wrong, may the people of the Jewish faith forgive me, as this is what I have been told by Jews of my acquaintance).

Also the Islamic people do not believe in the separation of God into three pieces. They believe this: "Say not that Allah has a son." (If I misquote this, I deeply apologize to the Islamic people, and they may correct me on this. But I am fairly sure that this quote is directly from the Qur'an).

Read the first chapter of St. John.

This is the 14th verse:
"[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Notice the words "AS OF". This means Jesus was in the appearance or like the Son of God, not that He WAS the son, He was God made flesh. Jehovah of the Old Testament BECAME Jesus in the New Testament.

St. John 14:

[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Verse 9-11: Jesus proclaims that He and the Father are the same, the Spirit of God incarnated in human flesh.

[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Verse 17-18 says it all, the Comforter, The Holy Ghost, is God returned to live in the heart of the believer.

One God, three positions, as Father (above us), as Son (with man in human flesh), and as Holy Ghost (indwelling in the spirit of the believer.

God bless

Pen

[ShadowsCool]

Notice the words "AS OF". This means Jesus was in the appearance or like the Son of God, not that He WAS the son, He was God made flesh. Jehovah of the Old Testament BECAME Jesus in the New Testament.

St. John 14:

[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Verse 9-11: Jesus proclaims that He and the Father are the same, the Spirit of God incarnated in human flesh.

[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Verse 17-18 says it all, the Comforter, The Holy Ghost, is God returned to live in the heart of the believer.

One God, three positions, as Father (above us), as Son (with man in human flesh), and as Holy Ghost (indwelling in the spirit of the believer.

God bless

Pen

Well put Pen. And if people think that common man made these verses up they are out of their minds. When they were inspired, you knew that something higher was dictating. In other words: God.

[BienvenuJDC]

However, there is no doubt that we are dealing with more than One Personality that are separate from the Others. The Messiah is not the same individual as Jehovah*, and the Spirit is an entirely different individual as the other two. While all Three are deity, all Three are equally powerful, and all Three are equally authoritative, They are three different entities. However, being different entities, They are all in complete agreement, therefore, They are One (in agreement). We must consider these passage.

Genesis 1:26

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Also consider the Three being present in different forms at the same time.
Matthew 3:16-17

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

*(note, it is possible that both the Father and Son as depicted in the New Testament are both Jehovah, but for the discussion I will refer to Jehovah as the Father).

[ShadowsCool]

i feel no pleasure to make u angry my dear nor i like clash of thoughts in such a way. i was/am still confuse to understand the trinity concept. i just said that i didnt find any reasoning in ur answer,as u also said it is impossible to understand the fact how a son can b father of himself or vice versa. anyway leave it.


I'm not here to do tit for tat with someone who believes in different scripture. I'm not here to say whose right or wrong. Nor am I angry in any way. Having said all that, I believe Pen explained it very clearly. You see Christianity doesn't mean a thing unless Jesus was God.

Now you talk about not understanding how a son can be a father and a spirit too. Well it's God! And you're not going to understand it. Nor is it required of us. In other words, we don't have to understand what makes God tick.

Now when I speak of these things, it's not that I don't understand the Gospel, cause I do. I know for a fact that the Bible teaches the trinity and I'll go to my heavenly grave knowing it.

[ShadowsCool]

However, there is no doubt that we are dealing with more than One Personality that are separate from the Others. The Messiah is not the same individual as Jehovah*, and the Spirit is an entirely different individual as the other two. While all Three are deity, all Three are equally powerful, and all Three are equally authoritative, They are three different entities. However, being different entities, They are all in complete agreement, therefore, They are One (in agreement). We must consider these passage.

Genesis 1:26


Also consider the Three being present in different forms at the same time.
Matthew 3:16-17


*(note, it is possible that both the Father and Son as depicted in the New Testament are both Jehovah, but for the discussion I will refer to Jehovah as the Father).

You are right. And so may pen be. We know that God spoke in the plural when it came to creating. The thing we don't know is God can be three different personalities and still be One. In other words the depths of God Himself. But we do think He's three different personalities in the one Godhead. These are realms that blow the mind. Thankfuly for salvation we are not required to know the depths of God. For none of us would be saved. Only that we believe on Him and He being God would know.

Now notice that moses wrote that probably knowing that he didn't understand it. That goes to show anyone that God inspired the scripture and not man.

[BienvenuJDC]

You are right. And so may pen be. We know that God spoke in the plural when it came to creating. The thing we don't know is God can be three different personalities and still be One. In other words the depths of God Himself. But we do think He's three different personalities in the one Godhead. These are realms that blow the mind. Thankfuly for salvation we are not required to know the depths of God. For none of us would be saved. Only that we believe on Him and He being God would know.

Now notice that moses wrote that probably knowing that he didn't understand it. That goes to show anyone that God inspired the scripture and not man.

Honestly, I don't think that it is our capacity to totally understand it. Man cannot understand infinity really, but they cannot understand if things were finite either....

"Before Abraham was, I am" John 8:58 (do you REALLY understand that?)

[ShadowsCool]

Honestly, I don't think that it is our capacity to totally understand it. Man cannot understand infinity really, but they cannot understand if things were finite either....

"Before Abraham was, I am" John 8:58 (do you REALLY understand that?)

BienvenuJDC, of course not! I know for a fact that we are in agreement on this subject. We being man cannot fathom the depths of God. That's why we leave it be and just believe on it. There certainly is scripture, even today , that is considered mystery.

When Jesus said "I Am" that had to blow their minds. Of course that's why they set to stone Him because of it.

Here is another scripture that tends to befuddle people:

Jude 1:9, But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Does anyone in their right mind believe the writer understood what he was writing when he wrote that? I doubt it.

That's what I call Divine insight. This is the first time learning of such a matter. Who knew the devil disputed the body of Moses. But it makes sense knowing how the devil acts.

[BienvenuJDC]

BienvenuJDC, of course not! I know for a fact that we are in agreement on this subject. We being man cannot fathom the depths of God. That's why we leave it be and just believe on it. There certainly is scripture, even today , that is considered mystery.

When Jesus said "I Am" that had to blow their minds. Of course that's why they set to stone Him because of it.

Here is another scripture that tends to befuddle people:

Jude 1:9, But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Does anyone in their right mind believe the writer understood what he was writing when he wrote that? I doubt it.

That's what I call Divine insight. This is the first time learning of such a matter. Who knew the devil disputed the body of Moses. But it makes sense knowing how the devil acts.


Consider this...
John 18:5-6

They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Considering that the "He" in italics is not in the original text, I believe that He said, "I am". So what made the troops fall back to the ground?

[ShadowsCool]

Consider this...
John 18:5-6


Considering that the "He" in italics is not in the original text, I believe that He said, "I am". So what made the troops fall back to the ground?

One of my favorites. I'd say it's the power of God! And yes I do believe He said "I Am" also. In other words, "I Am" He. The One!

[Buh4Bee]

I'm not going to argue with anyone about this. But I believe God is wondrous, we simply are limited in our knowledge and must be satisfied that faith is enough to carry us through. God never said he'd play at part in what happens to us, but he did say he'd love us and walk next to us. When no one loved me God always did! Amen to that!

[ShadowsCool]

I'm not going to argue with anyone about this. But I believe God is wondrous, we simply are limited in our knowledge and must be satisfied that faith is enough to carry us through. God never said he'd play at part in what happens to us, but he did say he'd love us and walk next to us. When no one loved me God always did! Amen to that!

You won't get any arguments by me.

But there is only one true Gospel. The rest are lies. They are feel-good Gospels that people like to hear. The reason why I bring this up is, these people love themselves more than the truth. Many of the churches today serve man rather than God. It's a scam.

[Pendragon]

I'm not going to argue with anyone about this.

Do not mistake discussion for arguing. In an argument, people make no effort to see the other's point, and ignore everything that doesn't fit their beliefs. In a discussion, people air their differing views without prejudice from others involved, and try to find common ground.

From what I have seen on this thread, most of us agree that there is a God whom we worship. We are in agreement that God created the world. We should not then fall out over the nature of the Godhead, just believe and serve God to the best of our ability.

I have received nothing but respect for what I have posted, and I trust I have been polite with others.

Here's my advice for what it is worth. Learn about the other people's religious beliefs; it does little good for example, for a Christian and a Muslim to discuss things, if they have no idea what the other believes with the exception that they do not believe the same way. If they know where they disagree, questions may be asked as to why the other believes that way. Otherwise you have an argument with both sides spewing religious quotations and boiling with anger.


I have always felt that the best religious statement I have heard outside the Bible came from Charles Schultz, speaking as Snoopy. In the comic strip, Schultz has Snoopy writing a religious epistle. The title is: "Has It Ever Occurred to You That YOU Could Be Wrong? Discussion is healthy for that, to hear differing opinions and asking ourselves are we sure we are right. Let God guide, and you follow.

God bless

Pen

[usman.khawar]

I know for a fact that the Bible teaches the trinity and I'll go to my heavenly grave knowing it.

yes u will go in ur grave and i'll go in my grave. so lets wait for that together. certainly with the will of my Lord i'll ask u there whose source of knowledge was without any error?

here are some those verses which i promised to share with u guys from the chapter Al imran. very clear, understandable, and simple realtion of Jesus and our Lord.

Birth of Mariyam33 .

Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
34 . Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
35 . Behold! a woman of 'Imran said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things."
36 . When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female.I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected."
37 . Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah. For Allah Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."

Some verses about Jesus Christ42 .

Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
43 . "O Mary! Worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."
44 . This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which we reveal unto thee (O Messenger.) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
45 . Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
46 . "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be of the righteous."
47 . She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48 . "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49 . "And an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Order: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's Order; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
50 . "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
51 . "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worships Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
52 . When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are followers.
53 . "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. Then write us down among those who bear witness."
54 . And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
55 . Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
56 . "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
57 . "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."
58 . "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."
59 . The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be".And he was.

[Pendragon]

46 . "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be of the righteous."
47 . She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

I have always loved these passages from the Qur'an ever since they were shared with me. God can create ANYTHING. He is omnipresent, everywhere at once.

Muslims believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ, that God created the body of Jesus in the womb of Mary. I believe the same, but I believe that God himself lived in this body.

Thanks for sharing usman!

God bless

Pen

[Darcy88]

Its a tough thing to put into word's. I like to think of it as the lord's presence.

Too much of it can be very overwhelming. I like physical representations of our lord in the flesh for this reason. Presented in physical form God is easier to take. But of course you need the holy spirit. It is God too.

Its complex.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Do not mistake discussion for arguing. In an argument, people make no effort to see the other's point, and ignore everything that doesn't fit their beliefs. In a discussion, people air their differing views without prejudice from others involved, and try to find common ground.

From what I have seen on this thread, most of us agree that there is a God whom we worship. We are in agreement that God created the world. We should not then fall out over the nature of the Godhead, just believe and serve God to the best of our ability.

I have received nothing but respect for what I have posted, and I trust I have been polite with others.

Here's my advice for what it is worth. Learn about the other people's religious beliefs; it does little good for example, for a Christian and a Muslim to discuss things, if they have no idea what the other believes with the exception that they do not believe the same way. If they know where they disagree, questions may be asked as to why the other believes that way. Otherwise you have an argument with both sides spewing religious quotations and boiling with anger.


I have always felt that the best religious statement I have heard outside the Bible came from Charles Schultz, speaking as Snoopy. In the comic strip, Schultz has Snoopy writing a religious epistle. The title is: "Has It Ever Occurred to You That YOU Could Be Wrong? Discussion is healthy for that, to hear differing opinions and asking ourselves are we sure we are right. Let God guide, and you follow.

God bless

Pen

True that, Pen! :D To Lear and discuss is what I love. :)

[ShadowsCool]

yes u will go in ur grave and i'll go in my grave. so lets wait for that together. certainly with the will of my Lord i'll ask u there whose source of knowledge was without any error?

here are some those verses which i promised to share with u guys from the chapter Al imran. very clear, understandable, and simple realtion of Jesus and our Lord.



I have delved into this subject with you many times before. I'm not here to convert you or you I. Your authority is the Koran, mine is the Bible. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was God; Almighty God, what have you.

Those scriptures that you bring up are totally unsupported by the Bible. They are not mere errors you purport, they are in total opposition to biblical teaching.

You keep bringing up these "errors" in the Bible. As if Mohammed came along 700 years later and got a vision from God to correct these "man-made" errors. And you honestly expect me to believe you?

For your information, I have extensively "checked" "done" my own research on the New Testament; specifically its origin, sources, what have you, and must say, I am satisfied by what I found. All the books of the New Testament jive perfectly with all the other books of the New Testament and the old for that matter. The New Testament quotes the Old Testament faithfully. Plus it forcefully shows how Jesus was the promised Messiah. What the Koran has done is built a whole new gospel, one without God of the Bible.

To imply that some bogeyman came up and wretched the scriptures is not supported. As far as I know, there is only one scripture - 1 John 5:7 - in the New Testament that is in question. And to my mind that has been satisfied. It was done so to imply what that scripture was indeed saying, not changing it.

The scriptures also teach the Holy Trinity. Because you cannot accept that is not my issue. If you want to believe that some prophet came along 700 years later and got all the answers right, that's for you. For me, I believe the Bible is the final authority and that's where my heart rest.

Now I can blow holes through the Koran, and I'm not afraid to do so. But I've been told not to do that. It is not my purpose to do such a thing at this time.

But apart from divine inspiration; as sober individuals, let us look at one simple fact: The Koran rest on one man living in a cave 700 years after the Bible was completed. The Bible was written over a period of about 1600 years with 40 different authors. I finally rest my case.

I'll leave on this: Revelation 22.18,19 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."

[usman.khawar]

IThose scriptures that you bring up are totally unsupported by the Bible. They are not mere errors you purport, they are in total opposition to biblical teaching.


What the Koran has done is built a whole new gospel, one without God of the Bible.

Now I can blow holes through the Koran, and I'm not afraid to do so.
[/COLOR][/I]

1 . Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2 . I worship not that which ye worship,

3 . Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

4 . And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

5 . Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

6 . To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Everyone has to give his answer in his/her grave and at dooms day. talk to u later there as allah also said "Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute" i put my case in front of Him..
.. :)

[Pendragon]

OK my friends:

ShadowsCool: Have you ever actually read the Qur'an, or are you just parroting what you have been taught? I have read the Qur'an and while I disagree with most of it, I have found points and scriptures with which I do agree. I am a Christian, and I would never make a good Muslim. Tearing down others beliefs is a very poor way to witness.

usman.khawar: Have you ever actually read the Bible, or are you also parroting what you have been taught? The same thing applies, tearing down others is no way to witness.

You see, the time comes when a person must believe because they are convinced, not just tag along with others beliefs. Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Each of you must ultimately come to a place where your questions concerning scripture will drive you to seek God for yourself. As Job said while enduring his torment: "Job 19:[25] For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
[26] And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
[27] Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."

Conviction had set in. There was now no doubt in Job's mind, for he had had a revelation for himself, personally. This is what a believer must find, God personally for themselves. Conviction of just who God is and how He works in the heart of the individual.

The Love of God be with you both, I would be honored to call each of you friend.

God bless

Pen

[ShadowsCool]

1 . Say : O ye that reject Faith!

Everyone has to give his answer in his/her grave and at dooms day. talk to u later there as allah also said "Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute" i put my case in front of Him..
.. :)

First of all, nothing against you personally.

I do not reject faith!

My faith happens to be different from your faith.

Paul has taught me,

Galatians 1:6-10 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

Your gospel teaches that Jesus was a creature created by God.

My gospel teaches me that Jesus was the creator and was God.

Why should I abandon my heart for yours?

I am not looking to put you down or make myself better. I believe in what I believe.

Let us just let it go and be well.

Shadows


OK my friends:

ShadowsCool: Have you ever actually read the Qur'an, or are you just parroting what you have been taught? I have read the Qur'an and while I disagree with most of it, I have found points and scriptures with which I do agree. I am a Christian, and I would never make a good Muslim. Tearing down others beliefs is a very poor way to witness.


Pen, of course, we are friends. I know where your coming from and hopefully you I. Having said that, I often wonder, what part of any gospel would not someone take a liking to? Most teach virtuous values to be good and love one another. That does not mean, I will go to those gospels because of these points. Are we not supposed to obey the ten commandments anyway? Of course we are.

Have I read the Qu'ran? No. Do I know enough about their central themes? Yes I do.

Do they not teach a different gospel than what Paul teaches? Yes.

Do they not teach that my Lord is but a creature? Of course they do.

Do they deny his Crucifixion, death and Resurrection? They do.

So am I supposed to just shake this off and deny my own faith? Not in a million years.

What more do I need to know about the Qu'ran?

I'm certainly not parroting what I have been taught. Should I prove myself that I know the scriptures? Can't you tell that I know the scriptures?

My belief's don't hinge on understanding; it hinges on clarity of heart! Should I deny the Spirit that moves within me?

[stephofthenight]

I'm not one to engage in the "bashing fest" and "demeaning debates" that tend to happen on the religion thread here, But would love to help you in any way I can as this is something I to struggled with and I struggle to teach my youth group to their understanding. You are welcome to Pm me anytime. But I would leave you with this concept. If we could put God in a box, and say we know everything about him and have him 100% figured out Would he really be God?

[stephofthenight]

www.bible.cc

http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/spirit/spirit-to-ghost.html

Bible cc is a great place that offers a parell of the hebrew/greek/and every translation that there is so that you can see what words differ and better help you find translation errors vs discrepencys. IE the word begotten in the common John 3:16 does not mean his only born son, the word is actualy monogenes in the greak, meaning a son of special, unique, elect status.

My best advice would be (as much as I love everyone on here) be skeptical of anything you are told, even from me, double check- treat it as a lie until you confirm for yourself that it is true. its okay to doubt, As it makes you stronger to know what you believe in vs what you think you should believe in to fit a title.

[ShadowsCool]

I'm not one to engage in the "bashing fest" and "demeaning debates" that tend to happen on the religion thread here, But would love to help you in any way I can as this is something I to struggled with and I struggle to teach my youth group to their understanding. You are welcome to Pm me anytime. But I would leave you with this concept. If we could put God in a box, and say we know everything about him and have him 100% figured out Would he really be God?

I don't want to sound demeaning in any way to you. But debates are useless, this I agree on. As for bashing, I don't think so. Just some tussle back n forth. As for needing help with scripture I leave that to the Spirit.

I'm not sure if the "you" meant I as far as needing help? Since you posted without any quotations. What I do say is, we all struggle with God because of our sinful nature. Once we recognize we have such a nature, God opens Himself up to us.

As for only begotten; are you suggesting God has more than one Son? I find no support for that thesis.

It's early and my brain is not working in full force, so excuse my demeanor.

As for Bible cc, it is a great place, and I recommend it myself.

[Pendragon]

So am I supposed to just shake this off and deny my own faith? Not in a million years.



A thousand times NO You should not deny your own faith! I was just wondering about your knowledge of what the Qur'an teaches, was it from personal knowledge or what someone else said. You seem to have personal knowledge of where it contradicts the Bible, which should be the Christian's Solid Rock upon which to build our lives to the glory of Jesus Christ. God bless you!

Pen


I'm not one to engage in the "bashing fest" and "demeaning debates" that tend to happen on the religion thread here, But would love to help you in any way I can as this is something I to struggled with and I struggle to teach my youth group to their understanding. You are welcome to Pm me anytime. But I would leave you with this concept. If we could put God in a box, and say we know everything about him and have him 100% figured out Would he really be God?

Great point Steph. I when we believe that we have God all figured out, we can be sure that we are treading on dangerous ground. Isa.55

[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

2Cor.10

[7] Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

He never said we'd understand, He said believe. Heb.11

[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.



God bless

Pen

[BienvenuJDC]

Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.


Great point Steph. I when we believe that we have God all figured out, we can be sure that we are treading on dangerous ground. Isa.55

[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

2Cor.10

[7] Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

He never said we'd understand, He said believe. Heb.11

[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.



God bless

Pen

[ShadowsCool]

I need to calm down when It comes to God. I admit sometimes I get all rallied up. Thanks guys!

[Scheherazade]

A: Discussion of any and all faiths and spiritualities, and religious and or sacred texts is encouraged here, but please remember to respect the beliefs of others.
Respect the fact that someone might not agree with you.
Respect the fact that there are others with different points of view.
Respect the fact that people are entitled to post their opinion as long as it is done in a way that is not inflammatory or disrespectful to others.
Respect the fact that there are members here representing myriad faiths, religions and spiritualities.

.

B: These forums are not here for preaching, or attempts to convert, nor promote other religiously affiliated websites.
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410

[usman.khawar]

OK my friends:

I have read the Qur'an and while I disagree with most of it, I have found points and scriptures with which I do agree.

The Love of God be with you both, I would be honored to call each of you friend.

God bless

Pen

Thanks for prays. thank God that shadowscool also cooldown or calmdown :)

i dont beleive you pen that u have read the Quran, one of the apparent reason is that during the discussion about the reasons and arguments for the existence of God, i asked " did u read the book which i shared with u guys ?" u said yes. i asked u what was the argument presented in and u replied with a pray of Muhammad PBUH taken from the start of the thread, and the reason about the Design of this universe. both are not from the book.

God bless u too , and everyone who is in this network and in the world, and passed by, and will come.

Regards

[Pendragon]

i don't believe you pen that u have read the Qur'an,

I have been kind and respected your belief, "there is no God but the true God; and Mohammed is His prophet.". I do object to being called a liar on a public forum. If I am wrong, I accept correction on misquotes. I do not insult you in any way, and I would appreciate your doing the same.


If you ask me about the Qur'an, and I misquote, it has been a long time, probably 20 years ago since I read it, and my memory isn't what it once was. I am, after all, past 50. I may quote wrong, in these things I have asked for correction if I do, from you as a Muslim, from any Christian, or from any of the Jewish faith. If I am wrong on scripture, correct me.

Do not let such things come between our friendship. I would not have bothered with my last post if I wasn't concerned about arguments causing wounded feelings. Now, it seems I should not have ever posted here...

And yet "May Allah smile upon you always."

Pen

[Pendragon]

This is for all of my LitNet friends whom I have talked to on this thread.

I do not often join in Religious discussions here, because of the inevitability of strong disagreements leading to bruised feelings and often petty and hurtful remarks flying in both directions. We are here to learn from each other, not to fight.

Since I seem to be the cause of usman.khawar's righteous indignation, I will post here no more. If any want to ask me an opinion on anything we have discussed here, feel free to send me a PM.

God richly bless you all, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, Agnostic, Hindu, Pagan, or other religion. I am proud to know you all.

Farewell

Pen

[usman.khawar]

Since I seem to be the cause of usman.khawar's righteous indignation, I will post here no more. Pen

no pen , i have no anger for you my dear.. if u dont post in this thread, i'll not as well.. accept my apology if i hurt ur feelings. i have already ended the conversation in this thread by saying that its ok we'll wait for dooms day or when we will be in grave for the answer.

May my Allah turns ur ,and all people who really have sincerity in their heart for God, fears in peace, frustrations in happiness.

Regards...