the earliest cliche to ever be written

[cacian]

I am in search of the earliest/oldest cliche to ever enter literature.
would you say Canterbury Tales/Geoffrey Chaucer denotes very early cliches?

[Calidore]

Kind of a tough call. What's a cliche now wasn't when it was first written. Also, how do you handle works in translation? A line may have been translated into an English cliche that wasn't one in its original language.

[cacian]

Good point however I was wondering whether cliches finds their root in Latin since the word is French.
Could we simply say it is firstly found in Latin/Italian work and then crept up and found a way into English?

[cafolini]

"Why me?"

[Alexander III]

Probably best to begin with Egyptian literature

[cacian]

Probably best to begin with Egyptian literature

Egyptian literature? This is the first I have heard of.
Any reasons why?

[Alexander III]

Egyptian literature? This is the first I have heard of.
Any reasons why?

Well, because it drasticaly pre-dates Greek and Roman literature, and Greek and Roman literature drew upon egyptian literature. So if you are looking at the original source.

Ofcourse egyptian lit was in turn influenced by lit of other cultures from the fertile crescent, but most if not all of that is lost to us.

[Calidore]

Do the Egyptians have anything older than the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh?

[Calidore]

Good point however I was wondering whether cliches finds their root in Latin since the word is French.
Could we simply say it is firstly found in Latin/Italian work and then crept up and found a way into English?

Well, there you're talking about the word "cliche", not the object. A cliche, according to Merriam-Webster, is:

1: a trite phrase or expression; also : the idea expressed by it
2: a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation
3: something (as a menu item) that has become overly familiar or commonplace

M-W also gives the origin of the word thus:

French, literally, printer's stereotype, from past participle of clicher to stereotype, of imitative origin
First Known Use: 1892

So the word's pretty new, but the cavemen probably had cliches in their speech after a time.

[cafolini]

Well, there you're talking about the word "cliche", not the object. A cliche, according to Merriam-Webster, is:

1: a trite phrase or expression; also : the idea expressed by it
2: a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation
3: something (as a menu item) that has become overly familiar or commonplace

M-W also gives the origin of the word thus:

French, literally, printer's stereotype, from past participle of clicher to stereotype, of imitative origin
First Known Use: 1892

So the word's pretty new, but the cavemen probably had cliches in their speech after a time.

If those are the definitions of cliche, with which I agree, they refer to meaning, not form. The only words that were not a cliche, then, are the ones that were spoken and stuck for the first time.

[Alexander III]

Do the Egyptians have anything older than the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh?

That is one single work, the very notion of identyfying cliche stems from that fact that you have multiple works to compare. With only one work, there can be no such thing as cliche.

That is why I said egypt, because we have various literary works surviving from an entire civilization to compare wit each other and identify cliche.

I thought that would have been rather obvious...

[cacian]

That is one single work, the very notion of identyfying cliche stems from that fact that you have multiple works to compare. With only one work, there can be no such thing as cliche.

That is why I said egypt, because we have various literary works surviving from an entire civilization to compare wit each other and identify cliche.

I thought that would have been rather obvious...

To be honest I have never thought the Egyptians/Phaorahs had any written manuscript of literature.
All the programms I have seen so far is about their wealths and their drawings and so I did not think they had any literary work.
Do you have any example?
Thank you.

[JuniperWoolf]

Kind of a tough call. What's a cliche now wasn't when it was first written.

I guess the question should be, what is the earliest instance of a phrase or theme in a work of literature which we would NOW consider cliche. I haven't read Gilgamesh, so I don't know. There's evidence (in art, like pottery) to suggest that many of the myths which we've found in ancient texts have existed for years before the Epic of Gilgamesh was written down, but there's no way to tell if the particulars of those myths have remained unchanged, so maybe we should count those out.

The oldest might be "the strong dominate the weak," that's apparent even from the artwork alone.

[cacian]

I guess the question should be, what is the earliest instance of a phrase or theme in a work of literature which we would NOW consider cliche. I haven't read Gilgamesh, so I don't know. There's evidence (in art, like pottery) to suggest that many of the myths which we've found in ancient texts have existed for years before the Epic of Gilgamesh was written down, but there's no way to tell if the particulars of those myths have remained unchanged, so maybe we should count those out.

The oldest might be "the strong dominate the weak," that's apparent even from the artwork alone.

I have not read Gilgamesh either but what do you mean it is apparent from the artwork alone? will google it.

[JuniperWoolf]

I have not read Gilgamesh either but what do you mean it is apparent from the artwork alone? will google it.

Well, there are tonnes of examples of big guys sticking spears through people on ancient pots, ect. Then again, maybe that might more accurately be representative of "my people are better than yours."

[MarkBastable]

"He started it."

Cain

[prendrelemick]

Have those Homeric Metaphors become Cliches? They have certainly been copied and used over and over.

Wine dark sea.
Rosy fingered dawn.
What words have escaped through the door of your teeth! (or- I can't believe you just said that! )

That's about 800bc ish.

The oldest would be "Go on I dare you" (bite that apple.)

[cafolini]

"He started it."

Cain

That's a good one.

[MarkBastable]

The oldest would be "Go on I dare you" (bite that apple.)

Ooh, I dunno. What about the one trotted out by every amdram play director rehearsing the curtain-raising number, jocular gymteacher opening up for the first lesson of the day and matey pub landlord illuminating the smoking area on a winter's evening?

"Let there be light!"

"Yeah, yeah - very witty. And so original too."

[prendrelemick]

If "He started it" was first, then "It's not Fair" will be up there as well.

[cacian]

Have those Homeric Metaphors become Cliches? They have certainly been copied and used over and over.

Wine dark sea.
Rosy fingered dawn.
What words have escaped through the door of your teeth! (or- I can't believe you just said that! )

That's about 800bc ish.

The oldest would be "Go on I dare you" (bite that apple.)

hehe..cool:biggrin5:

[KillCarneyKlans]

"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." Ronald Reagan

[Calidore]

"Hey, baby, going my way?" -- Adam to the new chick.

[MarkBastable]

"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." Ronald Reagan

Or, to be precise, "the clever guy who wrote clever things for Ronald Reagan."

[topicsinenglish]

I think it is Arab literature

[svejorange]

The scariest cliche that's ever been existent is do as you wish you have been done!