your best piece of history ever?

[cacian]

if you were to depict a piece of history and write about it as your favourite story of all times which would you pick and why?

For me it will have to be the succession of Henry the Eight to the throne,the breaking from the Catholic oppressive roman church and the reformation to a the church of England as the true church and last but not least as the rewriting of the bible from latin to English to make it accessible to all Englih population.

For me it is the best thing an English Monarch has ever done and the best historical piece ever to be recorded.

[RicMisc]

I have always had a weak spot for the House of Medici. I have read some books about this family and I have been to several of their palaces and I cannot help but feel dwarfed by the greatness of that family. They might not have been completely flawless (not at all) but they've managed to leave their print (correct word?) on European history.

At the hight of their power and wealth they were said to be the richest and one of the most powerful families in Europe. They have helped shape the landscape of modern day Italy and can be marked as the starters (or at least enablers) of the Renaissance. A time that got us away from the dark Middle Ages and opened the doorway to our world.

Who knows what Europe, and even more, Italy would have looked like if it weren't for the House of Medici. They're just a family that have always captured my imagination and they are often an inspiration for my writing.

[PeterL]

While I also think highly of the Medici, I think that the hiring of Rurik by Kiev was a more interesting piece of history.

[cacian]

While I also think highly of the Medici, I think that the hiring of Rurik by Kiev was a more interesting piece of history.

I do not know much Rurik apart from him being a viking.

[RicMisc]

While I also think highly of the Medici, I think that the hiring of Rurik by Kiev was a more interesting piece of history.

To be honoust, I've never heard about Rurik before you just mentioned him. Who was he?

[PeterL]

Rurik was a Varangian, a Norse mercenary; ha may also have been a Viking, but I don't know if he was a pirate. He appears to have been a trader along with his brothers, Oleg and Igor, and a gang. In 862 CE the city of Kiev hired him to protect the city. Over time he made himself the top dog of the city and all of the subsequent Dukes, Grand Dukes, Emperors, Tsars of Kiev and later Russia were descended from him, except for Boris Gudanov, who was just a boyar. The Wikipedia article is somewhat at variance with what I have read in other sources.

[Kafka's Crow]

The Moorish conquest of Spain for me. One hunted prince (Abd ul Rehman) escapes the massacre of his family after a revolution in The Islamic world. He takes with him a younger brother who is shortly captured by the enemy and slaughtered at the spot. Abdul Rehman swims across the Euphrates river, reaches North Africa alone and still pursued by his enemies. There he gathers his mother's clansmen and goes on an insane attempt to topple his enemies in the province of al Andulusia. He does so successfully and builds his own empire from there and establishes himself as the 1st Ummayad Caliph of Spain as Abdul Rahman 'the One Who Made an Incursion' (al Dakhil).

I like Hannibal's campaigns against the Romans as well, in fact I like any underdog who made the big guy bleed and run! Queen Elizabeth I and her Gentlemen Adventurers also made the Spanish superpower cry with their piratical incursions into the great Spanish Empire so much so that she managed to establish her own empire to rival the Spaniards.

[hawthorns]

As a Wallace, I'm partial to the lowland Scots of late 13th Century. Fought ill-equipped, half starved, out-numbered 3/1, probably betrayed by their own nobles, and freezing in kilts. Those were some tough dudes.

[Whifflingpin]

"except for Boris Gudanov, who was just a boyar."

What a great phrase - expressive of infinite contempt. You could turn it into a song, perhaps.

But, Cacian, I think you have just missed the boat - Hilary Mantel's Wolf Hall, published 2 or 3 years ago, is a stunning novel that should overshadow anything else written about that period for a long time to come.

The book I've been writing, at almost a page a decade, for the last 40 years is about the time of Skanderbeg.

[PeterL]

I like Hannibal's campaigns against the Romans as well, in fact I like any underdog who made the big guy bleed and run! Queen Elizabeth I and her Gentlemen Adventurers also made the Spanish superpower cry with their piratical incursions into the great Spanish Empire so much so that she managed to establish her own empire to rival the spaniards.

Hannibal was interesting. Whenever I think aboput it, I find myself cheering for him..

The Scipios were also amazing, and luckier.

[Dark Muse]

The story of Boudicca, the Celtic warrior queen who led an army in battle against the invading Roman forces.

[cacian]

Rurik was a Varangian, a Norse mercenary; ha may also have been a Viking, but I don't know if he was a pirate. He appears to have been a trader along with his brothers, Oleg and Igor, and a gang. In 862 CE the city of Kiev hired him to protect the city. Over time he made himself the top dog of the city and all of the subsequent Dukes, Grand Dukes, Emperors, Tsars of Kiev and later Russia were descended from him, except for Boris Gudanov, who was just a boyar. The Wikipedia article is somewhat at variance with what I have read in other sources.

I never thought you could hire someone to protect a city.
It is definetely a new concept for me considering it was that early in history.
It has definetely paved his way into high society although nowdays all you have to do is pay money to become a duke or a lord.
Titles and royalty is being bought for cash.

[cacian]

As a Wallace, I'm partial to the lowland Scots of late 13th Century. Fought ill-equipped, half starved, out-numbered 3/1, probably betrayed by their own nobles, and freezing in kilts. Those were some tough dudes.

betrayed by their own nobles????never!!!!

[cacian]

[QUOTE=Whifflingpin;1135367]"except for Boris Gudanov, who was just a boyar."
well at first I thought what is a boyar, and then it sounded rather harsh almost like a descritpion of some nobody from the gutters and then I looked it up and it turned out an aristocratic term. amasing how words can play a role in misdemeaning a title.
anyway contemp over royalty and gentry has always been the sharp thorn that does not go away that probes deeply into the sides of those who depesperatly try and put down /dimisnish almost rid of roylaty off the face of this planet...well there is always hope...and boyar is one vulgar term that does just that...

What a great phrase - expressive of infinite contempt. You could turn it into a song, perhaps.

But, Cacian, I think you have just missed the boat - Hilary Mantel's Wolf Hall, published 2 or 3 years ago, is a stunning novel that should overshadow anything else written about that period for a long time to come.
I have not heard of it sorry..will check it out thank you.

The book I've been writing, at almost a page a decade, for the last 40 years is about the time of Skanderbeg.

Skadenberg ?? never heard the term.

[stlukesguild]

if you were to depict a piece of history and write about it as your favourite story of all times which would you pick and why?

For me it will have to be the succession of Henry the Eight to the throne,the breaking from the Catholic oppressive roman church and the reformation to a the church of England as the true church and last but not least as the rewriting of the bible from latin to English to make it accessible to all Englih population.i

Unfortunately, what you are describing is far from being "history" and far closer to fiction. The impetus to break from the Catholic Church may initially have been the desire for a new wife and an heir which were thwarted by the Church, but ultimately the goal was to establish the royal throne as the sole rule in England, eliminating the power of the Church and foreign (Italian) influence. This involved declaring the king (Henry) as the supreme head of the Church of England, and the seizure of all Church properties. These were then turned over to the various Lords who were as a result, beholding to the Throne. In other words, the power of the Catholic Church was not eliminated for the sake of the rights of the citizens, but rather the ruling power that had once been shared between the Church and the Aristocracy was now placed solely in the hands of the Aristocracy.

[PeterL]

I never thought you could hire someone to protect a city.
It is definetely a new concept for me considering it was that early in history.
It has definetely paved his way into high society although nowdays all you have to do is pay money to become a duke or a lord.
Titles and royalty is being bought for cash.

Early Russian history was different. The communities were completely domocratic. even Kiev, a city od some size, had not permanent employees; people were hired as needed. The Pechencgs and the Khazars regularly attacked, and Kiev was ruled by the Khazar empire for a time. Eventually, they voted to hire a duke, so they did. Slavic history from about 500 CE to about 1200 CE was interesting. The Slavs in general were being attacked by everyone else, and the communities were large but loosly organized. Unfortunately, there aren't many histories of that period, because they were just getting written language. Kiev did have monestaries tht kept records, so "The Annals of Kiev" do exist.

[stlukesguild]

Kafka's Crow... I share your fascination with the period of the Moorish/Islamic rule of Spain. Arab Andalusia was surely a period of European Renaissance to rival the Italian Renaissance... and sadly it was destroyed by Reconquista under Ferdinand and Isabella. Islamic Spain was one of the most liberal cultures in the history of Europe. Christians, Jews, and Muslims were all free to worship as they believed. Many of the Islamic rulers employed Christian and Jewish military leaders and even governors. Arab Andalusia is in many ways responsible for the preservation of the Greco-Roman culture of the West which was transmitted from great Islamic libraries to the libraries of Spain. Hebrew, Christian, and Islamic scribes were employed in copying Classical Greco-Roman texts as well as Islamic, Persian, Indian, and other texts. Christian painters were especially valued for illuminating these texts with the most brilliant colors and original imagery. The period saw a wealth of brilliant architecture, art, and literature, including Hispano-Hebrew poets such as Moses ibn Ezra, Yehuda Halevi, Samuel Hanagid, Abraham ibn Ezra, and Solomon ibn Gabriol. There was also a wealth of Islamic lyrical poets whose poems... often of love and eros... would inspire the French and Provençal poets and ultimately impact Dante, among others, a help give birth to the whole tradition of European lyrical poetry.

Other periods I find of equal interest include the Italian Renaissance, the period of Persian Classicism, Japan of the Ukiyo-e period, and Paris of the fin-de-siecle... 1850-1920.

[prendrelemick]

Alexander the Great, a precocious youth who set out to "invade" the greatest empire the world had seen and suceeded at the age of 25. He was then left with the problem of what to do with the rest of his life.

[Alexander III]

The french revolution and the subsequent napoleonic wars. I was in brussels last october, and I went to visit the the fields were the famous final battle was fought. It was a fascinating time, were mankind produced some of it's finest children.

One story which comes to mind is from Chateaubriand's memoirs. He is recounting his childhood and he mentions one of his childhood friends. I forget his name, so let us just call him G-. At the end of the chapter Chateaubriand tells us of the ultimate fate of his friend. He became a captain of the french navy, and after the revolution joined the french emigre army and navy, of the Princes. He was a captain of a ship during an action when the Legitimists landed in the north of france to attempt to take back the north from the revolutionaries. This was done with the aid of british war ships. The Legitimists landed, but the revolutionist army was prepared and captured them imediatly. As one of the higher ranking officers G- swam out back to see to the british warships to tell them to stop firing, that their men had already been captured. The british offred G- saftery on board their ships. He refused to go onto a brithish ship, and returned to be with his men, because it was his duty. He along with 2000 legitimist officers who were captured that day were shot by firing squad, as traitors.

Just one of many stories, which I like to recall when doubts of mankind form in me.

Personally I had 3 ancestors who died in the napoleonic wars. Two were brothers and the other was their cousin. All 3 died in the russian campaign. The youngest was 19, the oldest 24. To think of the thousands of young men who went to fight and die for their ideals, kids of my age going into such up-close and brutal war. When I read war and peace, some of the war scenes almost reduced me to tears. I dont know why but this period has always possessed a magic for me, a tragic and beautifull magic.

[cacian]

if you were to depict a piece of history and write about it as your favourite story of all times which would you pick and why?

For me it will have to be the succession of Henry the Eight to the throne,the breaking from the Catholic oppressive roman church and the reformation to a the church of England as the true church and last but not least as the rewriting of the bible from latin to English to make it accessible to all Englih population.i

Unfortunately, what you are describing is far from being "history" and far closer to fiction. The impetus to break from the Catholic Church may initially have been the desire for a new wife and an heir which were thwarted by the Church, but ultimately the goal was to establish the royal throne as the sole rule in England, eliminating the power of the Church and foreign (Italian) influence. This involved declaring the king (Henry) as the supreme head of the Church of England, and the seizure of all Church properties. These were then turned over to the various Lords who were as a result, beholding to the Throne. In other words, the power of the Catholic Church was not eliminated for the sake of the rights of the citizens, but rather the ruling power that had once been shared between the Church and the Aristocracy was now placed solely in the hands of the Aristocracy.

Just an observation stluke your signature:

'Beware of the man with just one book'- Ovid
It reminded me of the court ritual of holding the bible in one hand and swearing to tell truth with the other.
I was watching the Levenson enquiry when Murdoch was shown holding a small book (a bible) it reminded me of your signature.
Quite a powerful image it gave there.
I hope you do not mind me mentioning it.

[RicMisc]

The french revolution and the subsequent napoleonic wars. I was in brussels last october, and I went to visit the the fields were the famous final battle was fought. It was a fascinating time, were mankind produced some of it's finest children.

One story which comes to mind is from Chateaubriand's memoirs. He is recounting his childhood and he mentions one of his childhood friends. I forget his name, so let us just call him G-. At the end of the chapter Chateaubriand tells us of the ultimate fate of his friend. He became a captain of the french navy, and after the revolution joined the french emigre army and navy, of the Princes. He was a captain of a ship during an action when the Legitimists landed in the north of france to attempt to take back the north from the revolutionaries. This was done with the aid of british war ships. The Legitimists landed, but the revolutionist army was prepared and captured them imediatly. As one of the higher ranking officers G- swam out back to see to the british warships to tell them to stop firing, that their men had already been captured. The british offred G- saftery on board their ships. He refused to go onto a brithish ship, and returned to be with his men, because it was his duty. He along with 2000 legitimist officers who were captured that day were shot by firing squad, as traitors.

Just one of many stories, which I like to recall when doubts of mankind form in me.

Personally I had 3 ancestors who died in the napoleonic wars. Two were brothers and the other was their cousin. All 3 died in the russian campaign. The youngest was 19, the oldest 24. To think of the thousands of young men who went to fight and die for their ideals, kids of my age going into such up-close and brutal war. When I read war and peace, some of the war scenes almost reduced me to tears. I dont know why but this period has always possessed a magic for me, a tragic and beautifull magic.

What a wonderful story, how did you find out about those three ancestors?

[Alexander III]

What a wonderful story, how did you find out about those three ancestors?

From the family stories, as well as a book we keep recounting the lives of all the men of our line, and also the women, but to a lesser extent until rather recently. We have kept this ledger since the 16th century and each time a blood member of the direct family line dies, he and his life is added to the book.

2 of their portraits our in the family home, seeing those portraits and knowing the lives they lead and how they died add to the impression.

[RicMisc]

From the family stories, as well as a book we keep recounting the lives of all the men of our line, and also the women, but to a lesser extent until rather recently. We have kept this ledger since the 16th century and each time a blood member of the direct family line dies, he and his life is added to the book.

2 of their portraits our in the family home, seeing those portraits and knowing the lives they lead and how they died add to the impression.

How amazing to have such a legder, I wish I had one from my family. Who knows who my Italian or Dutch ancestors might have been. Probably no one notable, but who knows haha.

But indeed having such a ledger containing your family tree and having those portraits adds to the impression.

By the way, are you a descendant from a highborn family then (having a ledger like that and all). Or was your family just really interested in keeping track of the bloodline?

[Alexander III]

How amazing to have such a legder, I wish I had one from my family. Who knows who my Italian or Dutch ancestors might have been. Probably no one notable, but who knows haha.

But indeed having such a ledger containing your family tree and having those portraits adds to the impression.

By the way, are you a descendant from a highborn family then (having a ledger like that and all). Or was your family just really interested in keeping track of the bloodline?

Yes we were made counts in the 16th century by the Pope, for outstanding military service.

To continoue with the napoleonic era I just discovered this man, anyone who is interested in reading one of the most fascinating and admirable lives amongst men, give a glance at his wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Charles_Louis_de_Lasalle

[RetsixArp]

As a Wallace, I'm partial to the lowland Scots of late 13th Century. ...Were those the Jedburghs? Some of the first guerilla warriors.

The British Special Operations Executive (SOE) trained in Jedburgh & trained OSS operatives there as well.

[cafolini]

Walt Disney launches Donald duck and uncle Oswald.

[JBI]

Kafka's Crow... I share your fascination with the period of the Moorish/Islamic rule of Spain. Arab Andalusia was surely a period of European Renaissance to rival the Italian Renaissance... and sadly it was destroyed by Reconquista under Ferdinand and Isabella. Islamic Spain was one of the most liberal cultures in the history of Europe. Christians, Jews, and Muslims were all free to worship as they believed. Many of the Islamic rulers employed Christian and Jewish military leaders and even governors. Arab Andalusia is in many ways responsible for the preservation of the Greco-Roman culture of the West which was transmitted from great Islamic libraries to the libraries of Spain. Hebrew, Christian, and Islamic scribes were employed in copying Classical Greco-Roman texts as well as Islamic, Persian, Indian, and other texts. Christian painters were especially valued for illuminating these texts with the most brilliant colors and original imagery. The period saw a wealth of brilliant architecture, art, and literature, including Hispano-Hebrew poets such as Moses ibn Ezra, Yehuda Halevi, Samuel Hanagid, Abraham ibn Ezra, and Solomon ibn Gabriol. There was also a wealth of Islamic lyrical poets whose poems... often of love and eros... would inspire the French and Provençal poets and ultimately impact Dante, among others, a help give birth to the whole tradition of European lyrical poetry.

Other periods I find of equal interest include the Italian Renaissance, the period of Persian Classicism, Japan of the Ukiyo-e period, and Paris of the fin-de-siecle... 1850-1920.

True only to certain extents with your appraisal of the liberality of Moorish Spain - Jews and Christians were historically peacefully coexisting with their Moorish rulers, yet were always put in subordination as a people, in the form of heavy taxes and certain restrictions. The general sentiment was that it was OK to be a Jew, but you still need to pay for your rights. Better than banishment under Christians, for sure, yet not as idealized as propaganda wants us to believe - liberal coexistence is a very rare thing in the world, and it is hard to find a single place that has actually achieved something of an equal coexistence.



As for times that fascinate me, well, I am obsessed with Sichuan culture, and am planning to write something of a cultural history on the area myself. It is interesting in that it is absent from all the history books, and has always been a sort of opposite China, and never an actual part of it - something which persists to this day. Yet at the same time, the best of poets and artists seem to have emerged out of the region, and the best landscapes and attractions are found within it. As for a more specific time period, I am interested in the period between the fall of the Han dynasty and the Tang dynasty, as that represents an historically difficult point in history, as regionalism and change are everywhere.

[Chris1991]

The battle of Dorylaeum in 1097 during the first crusade