Fairy Tales

[Timshel]

I'm exploring a thesis on the evolution of fairy tales. More specifically, I am exploring how what is deemed "appropriate."

Although my writing will not be comprehensive enough to document the exact evolution from Cupid and Psyche (A.D. 100-200) to Disney's unfractured modern tales (Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid, etc.). There is a clear inclusion of modern day sexuality within the characters today. Ursula's body tight shirt and a 5 sizes to small bra in the Little Mermaid, Jasmine's teasing nature/outfit in Aladdin, the controversy over the wolf "inviting" Little Red into bed before he "ate her all up." It's easy to pursue the modern connections, but my goal is to uncover the evolution. How did this happen??

So my question(s) to you is(are): What is a good starting point, a strong piece of evidence, or a direction to head in?



(I also can appreciate the fact that this may not be in the proper sub-forum, and for that I apologize in advance.)

[cacian]

Hi there
Interesting topic!
I noticed your signature ''Thou Mayest'' is that in reference to John Steinbeck book
East of Eden?
I am trying to understand what it means...not sure still.
May I point that I do not consider 'little red riding hood' a fairy tale because of its gruesomeness.

[Calidore]

Jack Zipes has written a number of books analyzing fairy tales, and has also published a one-volume edition of the complete Grimm's fairy tales, so you might check him out for starters.

[JCamilo]

There is not much controversy reggarding the wolf, there is? :D

Anyways, Cinderella is a very interesting tale for you to follow. From the historical origem, chinese version,etc. you can see the difference reggarding not sexuality, but economical relationship.

The grimms you get the pedagogical elements, they are the first really trying to aim to kids, so you have a big change here.

[Veho]

Hello Timshel,

You really should check out Angela Carter's The Bloody Chamber and Other Stories, if you haven't done so already. Traditional fairy tales with a modern and often sexual/sensual undertone.

I'm sorry I can't help with your evolution question though.

[PeterL]

I think tht you would be wise to make it as narow as possible, because looking carefully at fairy tales makes them bigger and bigger, especially if you look at early versions. There also it a lot of vriation among them, with some being based on historical events, some being fables or teaching stories, and some are just fantastic stories.

[Jair]

There are also modern fairy tales, you know. Besides for the Grimms and Arabian Nights. If you really want to discuss the evolution of the fairy tale, you should include Frank R. Stockton in your thesis.

[AlysonofBathe]

This might be a little outside your topic, but if you're interested in the sexualization of children's fairy tales (specifically via Disney), you may want to check out Peggy Orenstein's Cinderella Ate My Daughter, which is a really great, quick read that details the problematic relationship between the Disney Princess and young girls. She also has a blog here. (http://peggyorenstein.com/blog.html)

Cheers,
Alyson

[kiki1982]

Sleeping Beauty is one like that as well.

And Bluebeard.

I once did research in regards to Sleeping Beauty and Bluebeard for Jane Eyre (it's on the Jane Eyre forum somewhere that essay) and I came to transformations into adulthood for SP and for initiations into womanhood (where do babies come from and what is your role as a woman?) for SB and B. You can find the references at the bottom of that essay.

Maybe you can do someting with this link: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html

It's a website with fairy tales and folk tales all classified according to what they feature (women with spindles, soldiers, cinderalla type characters, red ridinghoods, etc.) and they contain stories from all over the world. You can also access the text.

[PoeticPassions]

I would dare to argue that there hasn't been that much of a change in the 'sexualization' of fairy tales, myths and children's stories. Go back, for example, to the 1001 nights tales and you will find a lot of eroticism, sexuality and violence.

Also, stories like the 'Little Red Riding Hood' went through a lot of different versions... the story was told orally and dates back to several centuries ago... It has evolved in many ways, but even some of the earliest versions seem to have had sexuality and even more violence than the generally accepted version today. I take this from Wikipedia:

''These early variations of the tale differ from the currently known version in several ways. The antagonist is not always a wolf, but sometimes an ogre or a ‘bzou’ (werewolf), making these tales relevant to the werewolf-trials (similar to witch trials) of the time (e.g. the trial of Peter Stumpp).[6] The wolf usually leaves the grandmother’s blood and meat for the girl to eat, who then unwittingly cannibalizes her own grandmother. Furthermore, the wolf was also known to ask her to remove her clothing and toss it into the fire.[7] In some versions, the wolf eats the girl after she gets into bed with him, and the story ends there.[8] In others, she sees through his disguise and tries to escape, complaining to her "grandmother" that she needs to defecate and would not wish to do so in the bed. The wolf reluctantly lets her go, tied to a piece of string so she does not get away. However, the girl slips the string over something else and runs off.''


So, in fact, I don't think fairy tales have evolved to be more sexual, but perhaps they have become more covert in their sexuality... though that's up for debate, as well. The Grimm brothers definitely had more violence and 'inappropriate' materials than do Disney versions... so perhaps the evolution of fairy tales has come to be that they are more 'moral,' rather than less.

This is a very broad topic... you may want to consider picking a few specific fairy tales and examining their evolution, rather than the whole batch. It would be overwhelming to think about ALL fairy tales (it is also interesting to think about the origin of certain fairy tales, as for example, tales in Easter Europe seem to be much darker than those in the West).

[Timshel]

Sorry for the "Wall-of-Text," in advance (I believe everyone deserves a response, if they were willing to respond to me).


Hi there
Interesting topic!
I noticed your signature ''Thou Mayest'' is that in reference to John Steinbeck book
East of Eden?
I am trying to understand what it means...not sure still.
May I point that I do not consider 'little red riding hood' a fairy tale because of its gruesomeness.

Yes! It's a quote directly from the Cain and Abel illusion.

I also see your point on LRRH, the original version is quite different from any literature children should hear or read.


Jack Zipes has written a number of books analyzing fairy tales, and has also published a one-volume edition of the complete Grimm's fairy tales, so you might check him out for starters.

I actually have a copy of his Fairy Tales as Myth/Myth as Fairy Tale! Thanks for the suggestion though, he is a significant part of my research.


There is not much controversy reggarding the wolf, there is? :D

Anyways, Cinderella is a very interesting tale for you to follow. From the historical origem, chinese version,etc. you can see the difference reggarding not sexuality, but economical relationship.

The grimms you get the pedagogical elements, they are the first really trying to aim to kids, so you have a big change here.

Similar to what PeterL said, I think that if i follow a singular stories evolution, I might have a better and more in-depth piece?

The wolf, in the original LRRH, the scene is decsribed as: "Little Red Riding Hood took off her clothes and got into bed. She was greatly amazed to see her grandmother in her nightclothes, and said to her, 'Grandma, what big......''' (you know how it goes)

Some clear sexual undertones, even overtones, if you ask me.


Hello Timshel,

You really should check out Angela Carter's The Bloody Chamber and Other Stories, if you haven't done so already. Traditional fairy tales with a modern and often sexual/sensual undertone.

I'm sorry I can't help with your evolution question though.

Will do I appreciate the input! I'm surprised I never heard of it before.


I think tht you would be wise to make it as narow as possible, because looking carefully at fairy tales makes them bigger and bigger, especially if you look at early versions. There also it a lot of vriation among them, with some being based on historical events, some being fables or teaching stories, and some are just fantastic stories.

I like the suggestion as from the initial research I thought that it might be hard to encompass the entire evolution within a quarter book, in any function of detail.

When you saw narrow, however, do you mean focus on one or two stories and follow them through history, or something else?

[Timshel]

There are also modern fairy tales, you know. Besides for the Grimms and Arabian Nights. If you really want to discuss the evolution of the fairy tale, you should include Frank R. Stockton in your thesis.

The Lady or The Tiger is one of my favorite stories! I have a sketched out timeline of key areas I wish to touch upon, and the late 1800s and early 1900s include him!



This might be a little outside your topic, but if you're interested in the sexualization of children's fairy tales (specifically via Disney), you may want to check out Peggy Orenstein's Cinderella Ate My Daughter, which is a really great, quick read that details the problematic relationship between the Disney Princess and young girls. She also has a blog here. (http://peggyorenstein.com/blog.html)

Cheers,
Alyson

Thanks for the input. Part of my thesis will inevitably include analysis, which is where this comes into play. Not only do I want to follow the evolution, but indicate how/why this is important.


Sleeping Beauty is one like that as well.

And Bluebeard.

I once did research in regards to Sleeping Beauty and Bluebeard for Jane Eyre (it's on the Jane Eyre forum somewhere that essay) and I came to transformations into adulthood for SP and for initiations into womanhood (where do babies come from and what is your role as a woman?) for SB and B. You can find the references at the bottom of that essay.

Maybe you can do someting with this link: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html

It's a website with fairy tales and folk tales all classified according to what they feature (women with spindles, soldiers, cinderalla type characters, red ridinghoods, etc.) and they contain stories from all over the world. You can also access the text.

I've spent over an hour just browsing the link you gave me. WOW. Much appreciated! Perfectly organized in any category.

Next ill take a look at the essay you mentioned! But for now, this site has my focus!

[JuniperWoolf]

I love fairy tales. It's hard to read them continuously, they all start to bleed together, so what I do is read a few between reading a novel. When you're tired of the novel switch to fairy tales and then when you're tired of fairy tales switch back to the novel format. It's very refreshing, I've read the entire Brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Andersen that way, and I'm almost done Aesop.

If you want to learn about the evolution of fairy tales however, like Poetic Passions says it would be difficult to gain much comprehension by simply reading fairy tales themselves (unless you're prepared to dedicate years to it) because there are so many, so I'd do what Calidore suggested and read books written about fairy tales.


Similar to what PeterL said, I think that if i follow a singular stories evolution, I might have a better and more in-depth piece?

That's a good idea too. It would be easier for me to pick one if you were doing violence (Cinderella, the whole godmother being packed in a barrel of acid and nails thing), but since you're going with sex, I'd pick... hmmm... Sleeping Beauty. If you do pick that one, Anne Rice has an erotica version called The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty (http://www.amazon.ca/Claiming-Sleeping-Beauty-N-Roquelaure/dp/0452281423) which is in the vein of S&M.

[JCamilo]

Similar to what PeterL said, I think that if i follow a singular stories evolution, I might have a better and more in-depth piece?

Yes, at least as starting point. Cinderella is a good one because unlike most of them, it has very old written registers such as Rhodopis and the Chinese versions and western basically give a new version every century. So it is a great story for you to exercise it.


The wolf, in the original LRRH, the scene is decsribed as: "Little Red Riding Hood took off her clothes and got into bed. She was greatly amazed to see her grandmother in her nightclothes, and said to her, 'Grandma, what big......''' (you know how it goes)

Some clear sexual undertones, even overtones, if you ask me.

So, no controversy :D (Specially from Perrault, who moralizes the tale as it. I have no doubt the tale started just like one of the many wolf-kid warning tales until got at the erotic level).

[JuniperWoolf]

Cinderella is a good one because unlike most of them, it has very old written registers such as Rhodopis and the Chinese versions and western basically give a new version every century.

:yesnod: Japan loves Cinderella too.