The Masculinity of the Papal Idea

[cacian]

*Please, and with all due respect, consider this not an attack on fellow christians or God but merely an observation that I felt needed pointing out.*

I often wonder about this whole papal idea and how it must a run on power to be on that position and tothink that one is beyong/above others on this earth.
A pope must realise that he is just another human being put on this eath and to behave like God on earth is rather disturbing.
People vehemently worship a being which from where I am standing is rather disturbing too.
Should not people get on with their lives on concentrate on worshiping each other instead, and life would be much better for it.
This constand idea of someone like a pope that thinks he is a god personified on earth and the constant male chauvinism in the fact that a pope is always a man makes me doubt this whole masquarade of men and power using God as an excuse to fullfil their constant hunger to reach out to the stars and control other human beings in this way is frankly dated and need a face lift.
I would rather turn to a queen or a king at least I know the country and I something out of it.

Discuss

[MANICHAEAN]

Cacian
This might get your interest:

Pope Joan

The first mention of the female pope appears in the chronicle of Jean Pierier de Mailly, but the most popular and influential version was that interpolated into Martin of Troppau's Chronicon Pontificum et Imperatorum, later in the 13th century.

Most versions of her story describe her as a talented and learned woman who disguises herself as a man, often at the behest of a lover. In the most common accounts, due to her abilities, she rises through the church hierarchy, eventually being elected pope. However, while riding on horseback she gives birth, thus exposing her gender. In most versions, she dies shortly after, either being killed by an angry mob or from natural causes. Her memory is then shunned by her successors.

The earliest mention of the female pope appears in the Dominican Jean de Mailly's chronicle of Metz, Chronica Universalis Mettensis, written in the early 13th century. In his telling, the female pope is not named, and the events are set in 1099. According to Jean:

Query: Concerning a certain Pope or rather female Pope, who is not set down in the list of Popes or Bishops of Rome, because she was a woman who disguised herself as a man and became, by her character and talents, a curial secretary, then a Cardinal and finally Pope. One day, while mounting a horse, she gave birth to a child. Immediately, by Roman justice, she was bound by the feet to a horse's tail and dragged and stoned by the people for half a league, and, where she died, there she was buried, and at the place is written: 'Petre, Pater Patrum, Papisse Prodito Partum' [Oh Peter, Father of Fathers, Betray the childbearing of the woman Pope].

Jean de Mailly's story was picked up by his fellow Dominican Etienne de Bourbon, who adapted it for his work on the Seven Gifts of the Holy Ghost. However, the legend gained its greatest prominence when it appeared in the third recension of Martin of Opava's Chronicon Pontificum et Imperatorum later in the 13th century. This version, is the first to attach a name to the figure, indicating that she was known as "John Anglicus" or "John of Mainz." It also changes the date from the 11th to the 9th century, indicating that Joan reigned between Leo IV and Benedict III in the 850s. According to the Chronicon:

John Anglicus, born at Mainz, was Pope for two years, seven months and four days, and died in Rome, after which there was a vacancy in the Papacy of one month. It is claimed that this John was a woman, who as a girl had been led to Athens dressed in the clothes of a man by a certain lover of hers. There she became proficient in a diversity of branches of knowledge, until she had no equal, and, afterward in Rome, she taught the liberal arts and had great masters among her students and audience. A high opinion of her life and learning arose in the city; and she was chosen for Pope. While Pope, however, she became pregnant by her companion. Through ignorance of the exact time when the birth was expected, she was delivered of a child while in procession from St Peter's to the Lateran, in a lane once named Via Sacra (the sacred way) but now known as the "shunned street" between the Colisseum and St Clement's church. After her death, it is said she was buried in that same place. The Lord Pope always turns aside from the street, and it is believed by many that this is done because of abhorrence of the event. Nor is she placed on the list of the Holy Pontiffs, because of her female sex.

Martin of Opava, Chronicon Pontificum et Imperatorum

One version of the Chronicon gives an alternate fate for the female pope. According to this, she did not die immediately after her exposure, but was confined and deposed, after which she did many years of penance. Her son from the affair eventually became Bishop of Ostia, and ordered her entombement in his cathedral when she died.

Some versions of the legend suggest that subsequent popes were subjected to an examination whereby, having sat on a dung chair containing a hole called sedia stercoraria, a cardinal had to reach up and establish that the new pope had testicles, before announcing "Duos habet et bene pendentes" ("He has two, and they dangle nicely"), or "habet" ("he has 'em") for short.



References to the female Pope abound in the later Middle Ages and Renaissance. Giovanni Boccaccio wrote about her in De Mulieribus Claris (1353). The Chronicon of Adam of Usk (1404) gives her a name, Agnes, and furthermore mentions a statue in Rome that is said to be of her. A late-14th-century edition of the Mirabilia Urbis Romae, a guidebook for pilgrims to Rome, tells readers that the female Pope's remains are buried at St. Peter's. It was around this time when a long series of busts of past Popes was made for the Duomo of Siena, which included one of the female Pope, named as "Johannes VIII, Foemina de Anglia" and included between Leo IV and Benedict III.

At his trial in 1415, Jan Hus argued that the Church does not necessarily need a Pope, because, during the Pontificate of "Pope Agnes" (as he also called her), it got on quite well. Hus's opponents at this trial insisted that his argument proved no such thing about the independence of the Church, but they did not dispute that there had been a female Pope at all.

The 16th-century Italian historian Onofrio Panvinio, commenting on one of Bartolomeo Platina's works that refer to Pope Joan, theorized that the story of Pope Joan may have originated from tales of Pope John XII; John, it is reported, had many mistresses, including one called Joan, who was very influential in Rome during his pontificate.

[Haunted]

A pope must realise that he is just another human being put on this eath and to behave like God on earth is rather disturbing.
People vehemently worship a being which from where I am standing is rather disturbing too.
Should not people get on with their lives on concentrate on worshiping each other instead, and life would be much better for it.


Are you talking about now or medieval times? Because I can't think of a Pope in my lifetime who "behaved like God" or exhibited behaviors that you characterized: thinking or acting that he" is beyong/above others on this earth".

Maybe that's what you think they think, which is not the same as what they actually think.

I see people like you all day everyday on tech blogs making stuff up as though they were real and then pass judgement and insult everyone else. I'll buy it for a moment that it's not an attack on Christians. But I would argue it's an attack on humanity.

People worshipping another being is fundamentally human nature. We honor/adore/love certain people for whatever they stand for that has meaning to us. There are people who are /were bigger than life because of what they have done. These are our heroes, saints, even celebrities, who mean something to some people. Pope is a celebrity of sorts, a spiritual leader.

From where I'm standing, it looks as though it is YOU who needs to get on with your life: let people worship who they want to worship and mind not other people's businesses.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

His hat is a bit phallic.

[MANICHAEAN]

Cacian
Leaving aside my diversion into the historical realms of a female Pope, your original query revolved I think, around the following Scripture:

"God made man in His image..." means God made us to look like Him with the same physical characteristics. "
(Genesis 1:26-28)

The Pope thus by definition, as spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic Church is a man under the prevailing dogma. He is not a god, the suggestion of which seems to have already attracted incoming fire.

It is really, not a physical question, but perhaps more a spiritual one in so far as it refers to man as being more than just animal, but having a spirit or soul as well.

It is interesting to note the male emphasis at the Resurrection at the tomb where Mary wanted to touch Him and He said, “ That He had yet to go unto his Father, and your Father, and to His God, and your God”.

[Charles Darnay]

It's hard to argue against Pope Classic (John Paul II) - he was so far removed from what Cacian seems to be criticizing.

The current Pope could go **** himself - and I know quite a few Catholics who share this opinion.

[Darcy88]

His hat is a bit phallic.

:rofl:

[cacian]

His hat is a bit phallic.

LOL I wonder ...


Cacian
Leaving aside my diversion into the historical realms of a female Pope, your original query revolved I think, around the following Scripture:

"God made man in His image..." means God made us to look like Him with the same physical characteristics. "
(Genesis 1:26-28)

The Pope thus by definition, as spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic Church is a man under the prevailing dogma. He is not a god, the suggestion of which seems to have already attracted incoming fire.

It is really, not a physical question, but perhaps more a spiritual one in so far as it refers to man as being more than just animal, but having a spirit or soul as well.

It is interesting to note the male emphasis at the Resurrection at the tomb where Mary wanted to touch Him and He said, “ That He had yet to go unto his Father, and your Father, and to His God, and your God”.

Dear MANICHAEAN
Thank you for the above post. Fascinating stuff I never knew about it actually made me think of Joan of Arc maybe the name such as Joans and Marys are almost the only names available and used in references to religion.
I agree that God made us into his/her image but does that mean he wants us to behave like him/her I do not know.
I have no proof anywhere that says God wished anyone to be a pope and become worhisped by other fellow humans like him.
I have nothing against faith and I think essential to think that there is another more powerful upper being but it does stop there for me.
I am not to worship any other after that.
I make a difference between believing in a upper being a more powerful being and that is it.
I see a pope just another person like you and me.
To worship a person is rather archaic and may deflect from the real god which is right above us and not amongst us on this earth.
The whole papal for me is like a power trip and nothing else.


Are you talking about now or medieval times? Because I can't think of a Pope in my lifetime who "behaved like God" or exhibited behaviors that you characterized: thinking or acting that he" is beyong/above others on this earth".

Maybe that's what you think they think, which is not the same as what they actually think.

I see people like you all day everyday on tech blogs making stuff up as though they were real and then pass judgement and insult everyone else. I'll buy it for a moment that it's not an attack on Christians. But I would argue it's an attack on humanity.

People worshipping another being is fundamentally human nature. We honor/adore/love certain people for whatever they stand for that has meaning to us. There are people who are /were bigger than life because of what they have done. These are our heroes, saints, even celebrities, who mean something to some people. Pope is a celebrity of sorts, a spiritual leader.

From where I'm standing, it looks as though it is YOU who needs to get on with your life: let people worship who they want to worship and mind not other people's businesses.

Hi Haunted
I get what you are saying and I can reassure that I am not trying to undermine any faith nor insult anyone.
I am merely putting a point across that needs mentioning because it felt it right to do so.
I put this post up to discuss the issue I have with the idea of ope which I personally have no understanding of it.
I see it as another distraction from the real god , I think I feel there is a point I wish to bring up, and it may harm no one to add to ones' understanding and knowledge, is that human worship is rather deflective of a faith that is best or perhaps better due to the higher being and not to towards another fellow human. Who are these people to claim they are like god?
I fee that way and that is all.

[Harlow58]

http://www.infoocean.info/avatar2.jpgHis hat is a bit phallic.

[RicMisc]

In my opinion something like a pope is quite unnecessary, male or female. People, if religious, should not worship a normal human being that has by bribery (in past times) gained a position of immense power and influence. I think there's nothing wrong with religion or religious people but people should really think twice about an institute like the Catholic church which has for a long time dictated Europe. These things might in essence be good but it's human nature that there are always some who can't resist the temptation of such great power.

Therefore the institution church has been used by many people for their personal interest and it has caused a lot of pain and suffering as of consequence. Not to say that there's nothing good about the institution church, because there most definitely is; there's just a flip side which some people just like to forget about.

*this is my point of view, and I mean not to offend anyone in the process of expressing it

[Jason Cardona]

The Pope is not a god, and Catholics do not worship the Pope.

Realize that after 2,000 years of Christian history the papacy has become complicated and has changed form over time. But always at the heart of the papacy is the Pope as successor of St. Peter, a humble fisherman whom Christ chose to "feed my sheep" (John 21:15).

The essential role of St. Peter among the Apostles was given to him by Christ: "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." (Luke 22:31-32)

That is the essential role of the Pope, to confirm and support his fellow Christians in the faith of Christ. Do the Popes always do that well? No, because the Popes are sinful men, just like St. Peter. But their role is to be a leader and example in the faith of Christ.

[Jair]

I am not Christian, but I would just like to point out that the church believes in papal infallibility (ex chathedra). It is evident that the pope is seen as a man particularly saturated with the Holy Spirit. He is no ordinary layman.

[Jason Cardona]

I am not Christian, but I would just like to point out that the church believes in papal infallibility (ex chathedra). It is evident that the pope is seen as a man particularly saturated with the Holy Spirit. He is no ordinary layman.
The dogma of Papal Infallibility was defined in 1870 at the First Vatican Council in the document "Pastor Aeternus." The dogma is actually very precise. It's not a blanket infallibility attached to the Pope's every word. Here is the definition:


Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm
The church also believes that the entire body of bishops, gathered in ecumenical council with the Pope, can also teach infallibly as a group. The charism of infallibility is understood as a divine protection against error...in other words, infallibility assumes that the bishops are fallible human beings who, without God's protection, could lead the church into all kinds of error.

Infallibility is considered necessary, not because the Pope is some kind of divine being, but just the opposite: because as a man he is fallible and sinful, but as Pope he needs God's protection against error when he is formally defining doctrine in the name of the church.

[BienvenuJDC]

I am totally against the idea of the papacy. I don't find the concept in the Bible at all. However, I do find this...I can't say for sure that this is in direct reference to the papacy, but I believe it is in concept.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12


2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[Jair]

Infallibility is considered necessary, not because the Pope is some kind of divine being, but just the opposite: because as a man he is fallible and sinful, but as Pope he needs God's protection against error when he is formally defining doctrine in the name of the church.

But the Pope is still the one special guy that does get infallibility. Obviously he ranks differently from the average man. He is a representative of divine authority.

[cacian]

But the Pope is still the one special guy that does get infallibility. Obviously he ranks differently from the average man. He is a representative of divine authority.

on what basis does he get to qualify from a divine authority?
what is the procedure? because if it is that accessible that we should all be queing up for a papacy role don't you think?


I am not Christian, but I would just like to point out that the church believes in papal infallibility (ex chathedra). It is evident that the pope is seen as a man particularly saturated with the Holy Spirit. He is no ordinary layman.

yes but he is definetely your average person. Sulrey everyone knows that.

[MANICHAEAN]

BienvenuJDC

Paul concludes in Thessalonians 2:6 with the words: “nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority.”

Note the plural & the rejection of “ruling.”

Likewise in the section 2:7-12 Paul explains what an effective ministry is. To draw this out, he uses paternal metaphors. This extensive use of parental and family images is significant. Thus Paul illustrates his relationship with the Thessalonians by describing the bond between a nursing mother and her child. Just as a mother nourishes her child through her own body, so Paul as a spiritual parent nourishes his children in the faith with the Word of God.

My own belief is in the potential of a separate ministry within each individual, whether secular or otherwise.

Regards
M.

[Darcy88]

I don't like the pope. I laugh at the pope. In the name of one who taught humility the pope walks about like a great semidivine emperor. Its absurd. Blanketly banning condoms, including in Aids-stricken Africa, is evil and deranged beyond comprehension.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

The pope is a man like everyone else. Nothing more, maybe a little less.

[BienvenuJDC]

The pope is a man like everyone else. Nothing more, maybe a little less.

Except that he dresses totally ridiculous.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Except that he dresses totally ridiculous.

Hence the "less." :lol:

[CarpeNixta]

I don't like the pope. I laugh at the pope. In the name of one who taught humility the pope walks about like a great semidivine emperor. Its absurd. Blanketly banning condoms, including in Aids-stricken Africa, is evil and deranged beyond comprehension.

I agree with you, I don't understand what makes this man "so special" in comparison with other catholic believers, (if you didn't hear) he was here in my country the past week and the people was acting like he was not a human but god itself.

Also the thing that I dislike most of this visit is the ... chair, we have people in hunger and he got a chair covered in gold... makes me think for what the pope is really needed

[Haunted]

So this is what Litnet's Religious Texts Forum comes down to: Pope Bashing sans religious texts.


A couple of biblical comments aside, the postings run the gamut from making falsehoods to ridiculing religious attire.

This thread disgusts me.


***


To the delusional OP about pope(s) acting like God, your observation is NOT reality. Heed this saying:

You are entitled to your opinion but not your own facts.



***


To the Christian poster who is against the idea of the papacy, WOW.

So this is the pecking order: My Christian Church is better than the stupid Catholic establishment. This got to be the epitome of hypocrisy.


***


To the rest of the bashers, to each his own, just not here. The last I checked, the caption under Religious Texts still says:
"Discuss religious or sacred texts here. Remember to respect the beliefs of others."


It's threads and posts like these that made up the reasons I don't visit Litnet as much anymore. Across the board I see a lack of respect and sensitivity, crass demeanor, schoolyard bullying... all so off-putting.

It would be interesting to see how long it takes for this thread to get moderated.

[Darcy88]

Boo-hoo-hoo. People have died of AIDS because of dastardly popes. The man's attire is relevant because it shows his marked lack of humility. HUMILITY, that thing that dude in that great SACRED TEXT kept talking about. Pretty sure Bien brought up the bible and an extensive quotation from it. Its an internet forum, by any stretch the papacy is fair ground in a religious sub-section.

[Scheherazade]

It would be interesting to see how long it takes for this thread to get moderated.Not very long.