The Joker Vs. Lex Luthor: Who's the Better Villain?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Let's settle this.

[JuniperWoolf]

I'd be Lex's #1 flunky, and I wouldn't have to wear motley either.

[Charles Darnay]

The joker. Oddly enough, Mark Hamill'sjoker is one of my favorite incarnations

[Helga]

I have to say the Joker, he is just so wonderfully crazy evil. Also I prefer Batman to Superman so that might weigh in my opinion..

he is beautifully insane I think

[SilentMute]

I think this is like comparing apples and oranges.

The Joker considered evil an art form. He didn't really profit from the things he did, though I suppose he did commit some robberies.

Lex Luthor--evil was the means to gain power and wealth. It had a purpose.

Then the problem is we have to decide on which one are you talking about? There were different Jokers, and they were rather different. I too preferred Mark Hamill's, though Heath Ledger's was seriously creepy! However, the 60's Joker was just a plain...er...joke.

Lex Luthor...which one? Is it the one in cartoons? Is it the one in Smallville? Is it Gene Hackman? They were all a little different.

I suppose if I had to choose, I guess I would choose the Joker. He is more terrifying because his evil has no purpose, or maybe it does in his sick mind. Besides, I've always been a DC fan.

[Darcy88]

Lex Luthor because the name just sounds badass.

[Paulclem]

Ledger's Joker - way more unpredictable than Lex. Also, Batman is a much better premise for a story.

[Calidore]

I wish Luthor and Batman would fight more often, because their battles would be good chess matches targeting the other's weakness (Batman's obsessiveness and solitude, Luthor's arrogance and hubris). They're both brilliant and rich enough to do whatever they want in pursuing their ends.

Joker, well, he's insane. That's it. No depth, no real way to keep people's attention except constant escalation. Several people dead, then dozens, then hundreds, etc. And occasionally striking close to home to make it personal (Batgirl, Robin II). But he has no character anymore; he's just a force of nature. And there's no satisfactory comeuppance for him, because he really doesn't care. It's hard to be emotionally invested in a villain who has no emotional investment in anything himself.

Luthor, on the other hand, has a life. Luthor could use and discard Joker, but I don't see Joker using and discarding Luthor without Luthor having an over-plan in place.

[MystyrMystyry]

Hard to formulate an argument about either because of the way the stories are constructed - both have to survive so as to appear in later installments, and both have to try to best their respective superhero with whichever weakness they know of (Batman can't intentionally kill the Joker, and the Joker milks it). Can Luthor get his hands on Magic? No, so he has to keep going for the next best thing, but never sticks around to land the finishing blow. Don't get me started on Mr Mxrdgregdj?hnkhj!

But this is also why Bats needs the Riddler, Catwoman, Penguin, Mr Freeze, etc: a solo Joker would get on your nerves pretty quickly. Sporadically he's perfectly fine because it's like the arch swordsman against the rank amateur who always pulls a move the hero didn't expect. It's horses for courses - you'd need Bats to team with Supes, the Joker to team with Luthor (or Bats/Luthor vs Supes/Joker!) to see what's which, but they're all solitary and secretive really - I wouldn't reckon Luthor lets his research scientists know exactly what they're building.

But what do I know - I haven't read every comic, and the films just confuse things more, BUT-

The Dark Knight will be the gold standard (imho) for a long time, and there are probably forty-fifty Bat stories I could name as absolute classics, but only Superman II would I mark as a must-see film (at least for its plot). I don't know if there are good Super comics, but I doubt it. They all seem to depend on him doing something out of the already-out-of-the-ordinary, like marrying Lois Lane or somesuch.


My tuppence

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

The joker. Oddly enough, Mark Hamill'sjoker is one of my favorite incarnations
Voice-wise, Hamill's Joker will always be the voice I hear in my head when reading the comics. I grew up on the 90s Batman cartoon, and that voice was just absolutely perfect. I've rewatched some of those episodes recently, and it still is.

I think this is like comparing apples and oranges.

The Joker considered evil an art form. He didn't really profit from the things he did, though I suppose he did commit some robberies.

Lex Luthor--evil was the means to gain power and wealth. It had a purpose.

Then the problem is we have to decide on which one are you talking about? There were different Jokers, and they were rather different. I too preferred Mark Hamill's, though Heath Ledger's was seriously creepy! However, the 60's Joker was just a plain...er...joke.

Lex Luthor...which one? Is it the one in cartoons? Is it the one in Smallville? Is it Gene Hackman? They were all a little different.

I suppose if I had to choose, I guess I would choose the Joker. He is more terrifying because his evil has no purpose, or maybe it does in his sick mind. Besides, I've always been a DC fan.
You over thought it. :D



Joker, well, he's insane. That's it. No depth, no real way to keep people's attention except constant escalation. Several people dead, then dozens, then hundreds, etc. And occasionally striking close to home to make it personal (Batgirl, Robin II). But he has no character anymore; he's just a force of nature. And there's no satisfactory comeuppance for him, because he really doesn't care. It's hard to be emotionally invested in a villain who has no emotional investment in anything himself.
You just explained exactly why I love the Joker.

I don't know if there are good Super comics, but I doubt it. They all seem to depend on him doing something out of the already-out-of-the-ordinary, like marrying Lois Lane or some such.


There are. I haven't read as many Superman comics as Batman or X-Men, but there are good stories out there. Two that immediately come to mind are The Death of Suoerman (ironically written in opposition to your complaint--that had ranked up Supe's powers to to high of a level and decided to knock him down a peg) and Suoerman: Foe Tomorrow, which portrays a more conflicted and confused Superman over his place on Earth and how much he should interfere in our world. And I've always been a fan of the stories with Darkseid (a villain I rate above the Joker, even; he truly is pure evil).

Plus, Batman follows a formula, too; crazy villain starts terrorizing Gotham, Batman must do detective stuff to stop it. Actually, when I think about it, there's been a lot less variation when it comes to Batman's oeuvre as oppposed to Superman's.

[MystyrMystyry]

Formulaic for sure, but comics need to be to a big degree. Totally new plots are expensive and risky and it's not cool to have the hero or villain changing out of character too often, the reader likes to know who they're dealing with.

Supes' death was a sign of a bad period in industry when all sorts of dumb things happened as certain movers and shakers took unnecessary left turns into the creek (I recently mentioned the New Coke fiasco - about the same timeframe). I think it was something to do with DC worrying that sales for Superman were dropping off dramatically (precisely for the reasons in my afore-referred criticism), so they took a drastic action.

What they should have done was invest in a new movie or tv series and try to reach a new juvenile market.


Anyway the problem with Darkseid is that he's not human or even humanoid. I mean Supes is humanoid, but compared to humans he's a god. Darkseid is exponentially more powerful than him - he is to Superman what Superman is to me and you. A Titan perhaps. For Supes to beat him he has to not hold back and use everything he has with intent to kill.

But for him to smash Darkseid is just as preposterous as you or I beating up Superman with our fists because we were really really pissed.

Enter Radion. Even Batman walloped him with a lucky shot of the stuff somehow - and Darkseid's faster than Superman.

And that's the trouble - as a reader I need a certain consistency if I'm expected to suspend my disbelief.*

Joker and Luthor are the perfect nemesis for their heroes, because in a way they are reflections of us mere mortals. Both would be master villains were it not for Bats and Supes constantly confounding their fiendish schemes. Even though Joker is the ultimate mouth breather and Lex has a real corporate issue with morality, at the sign of defeat they scarper, pick up and dust off, and prepare for their next assault on the annals of infamy.



*I don't mind Darkseid in moderation, but basicly I'd prefer any action to have an equal reaction, needn't be opposite, just equal and sensible. And The Miracle Machine is just plain ridiculous.

[BookBeauty]

I'm saying Lex. He's a realistic villain we can all relate to. He's got more depth, and intellect, and a general heart (In terms of the picture painted by the one who created him). Joker is just insane and unlike anyone you'd actually meet. Writing realistically is far more challenging than writing fantastically.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Formulaic for sure, but comics need to be to a big degree. Totally new plots are expensive and risky and it's not cool to have the hero or villain changing out of character too often, the reader likes to know who they're dealing with.

Supes' death was a sign of a bad period in industry when all sorts of dumb things happened as certain movers and shakers took unnecessary left turns into the creek (I recently mentioned the New Coke fiasco - about the same timeframe). I think it was something to do with DC worrying that sales for Superman were dropping off dramatically (precisely for the reasons in my afore-referred criticism), so they took a drastic action.

What they should have done was invest in a new movie or tv series and try to reach a new juvenile market.


Anyway the problem with Darkseid is that he's not human or even humanoid. I mean Supes is humanoid, but compared to humans he's a god. Darkseid is exponentially more powerful than him - he is to Superman what Superman is to me and you. A Titan perhaps. For Supes to beat him he has to not hold back and use everything he has with intent to kill.

But for him to smash Darkseid is just as preposterous as you or I beating up Superman with our fists because we were really really pissed.

Enter Radion. Even Batman walloped him with a lucky shot of the stuff somehow - and Darkseid's faster than Superman.

And that's the trouble - as a reader I need a certain consistency if I'm expected to suspend my disbelief.*

Joker and Luthor are the perfect nemesis for their heroes, because in a way they are reflections of us mere mortals. Both would be master villains were it not for Bats and Supes constantly confounding their fiendish schemes. Even though Joker is the ultimate mouth breather and Lex has a real corporate issue with morality, at the sign of defeat they scarper, pick up and dust off, and prepare for their next assault on the annals of infamy.



*I don't mind Darkseid in moderation, but basicly I'd prefer any action to have an equal reaction, needn't be opposite, just equal and sensible. And The Miracle Machine is just plain ridiculous.

I honestly don't go to comics for consitency or logical Premises. I've never seen Darkseid as being that strong. Plus, when Batman shot him with the Radion, Darkseid had just taken over a in a weak human body--he was hardly at full strength, probably not even close. And Final Crisis was a steaming pile of ****, anyways.

[Skret]

See, I like Batman, more than I like Superman. But I like Lex more than the Joker. Lex has a purpose, whereas Joker only wants revenge on someone he can only find through random acts of destruction. Also, the Joker keeps getting caught, and thrown in jail. Lex has enough power backing him up, that he gets off Scott-free, and can make another plan immediately. Plus, all the rest of the villains either fear, or respect Lex Luthor because he's got the intelligence to make the plans, and the power to put them into action.

Joker is delightfully crazy, and quirky, but he has no structure. He's intelligent, and bat-**** crazy at the same time. This makes him really likable, but whereas, I've never actually seen Joker succeed (aside from killing Robin), Lex has won quite a few times.

[JuniperWoolf]

My fictional beloved is winning! Lex Luthor RULES!

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Nope! All tied up.

[Desolation]

Lex.

The best villains are the ones who believe themselves to be heroes. Luthor is a compelling villain because he (at least in most incarnations, Gene Hackman version not included) doesn't think he's evil. He believes that he's doing humanity a favor by trying to protect it from the unpredictable menace of Superman.

The Joker is great, but he's far too aware that he's evil.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I honestly find this outcome quite surprising, I thought Joker would take it at least 3 to 1.

[MystyrMystyry]

Luthor is a compelling villain because he (at least in most incarnations, Gene Hackman version not included) doesn't think he's evil. He believes that he's doing humanity a favor by trying to protect it from the unpredictable menace of Superman


Just like any over-stuffed right-wing working class-should-know-their-place climate-change denier


High five Mutatis!

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Luthor is a compelling villain because he (at least in most incarnations, Gene Hackman version not included) doesn't think he's evil. He believes that he's doing humanity a favor by trying to protect it from the unpredictable menace of Superman


Just like any over-stuffed right-wing working class-should-know-their-place climate-change denier


High five Mutatis!
:lol:

[papayahed]

The Joker

First because of the song. Second because he seems more fun.

[Scheherazade]

Lex.

The best villains are the ones who believe themselves to be heroes. Luthor is a compelling villain because he (at least in most incarnations, Gene Hackman version not included) doesn't think he's evil. He believes that he's doing humanity a favor by trying to protect it from the unpredictable menace of Superman.

The Joker is great, but he's far too aware that he's evil.

I like this.

[fudgetusk]

What did Luthor ever do? I never read Batman or Superman comics. Too...obvious. Give me 2000AD and later SHADE THE CHANGING MAN and DOOM PATROL.

[Calidore]

What did Luthor ever do? I never read Batman or Superman comics. Too...obvious. Give me 2000AD and later SHADE THE CHANGING MAN and DOOM PATROL.

If you're a 2000AD fan, you might be interested to know that Alan Grant had a very long and excellent run writing Batman a long time ago. Especially his classic teaming with Norm Breyfogle on art.