Documentaries

[Paulclem]

I like documentaries. They are informative and interesting. They broaden my mind, and often stimulate further interest. They bring me information beyond my usual field with concise explanations woven into a narrative that gives coherence to the hit and miss nature of scientific endeavour, or medical discovery or expeditions.

Or rather that's what they should do.

Instead I increasingly find an interesting subject destroyed by a tedious commentary, lack-lustre reconstructions, so-so graphics and "personality" presenters.

I watched half a documentary today on how the Egyptians had moved the city of Pireaus back to the banks of the Nile after its original tributary dried up. A potentially interesting and illuminating subject was ruined by a documentary style that treated me like a moron. A moron I may be, but now I'm a bored one.

What's your view?

[Hawkman]

I have to agree. The current trend is to Tabloid style and sound bites in tiny segments designed to allow for advert breaks every 10 minutes, and the first 5 minutes of the resumption of the documentary after the break recaps the previous segment. On top of this the camerawork is abysmal: out of focus & wobbly (have the cameramen all forgotten what a tripod is? Surely they can at least use a steadycam!) There is also a tendencey for sensationalism, taking the most banal topic and ramping up the supposed importance with false emphasis or mystery. Quite frankly I find it insulting to my intelligence. As far as I'm concerned, the high point of the TV documentary was when David Attenborough was controller of BBC2. His programs are almost the only ones which treat the audience with a modicum of respect for their intelligence.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yes it seems that they have not escaped the dumbing down culture either. It comes to something when the best thing on TV this week was the Harry Bikers Bakecation - really it was good. Biking around Norway, beautiful looking Norway gosh, baking bread, top programme, but it is true about documentaries as with everything else they have become infected with the dumbing down culture. Also, what is it with those programmes that show you everything that is going to happen in the first five minutes as well as reminding you what happened after the adverts - I know I have just seen it, I'm not thick! Very annoyng.

[Paulclem]

Yes it seems that they have not escaped the dumbing down culture either. It comes to something when the best thing on TV this week was the Harry Bikers Bakecation - really it was good. Biking around Norway, beautiful looking Norway gosh, baking bread, top programme, but it is true about documentaries as with everything else they have become infected with the dumbing down culture. Also, what is it with those programmes that show you everything that is going to happen in the first five minutes as well as reminding you what happened after the adverts - I know I have just seen it, I'm not thick! Very annoyng.

I caught the last 15 mins of the Hairy Bikers. It was good. My wife was watching it and recommended it too. I like those blokes - funny.

[Delta40]

While I was in England, I watched at two part series called Make Bradford British on Channel Four. Did any of you guys watch it?

[Paulclem]

No - it looked like another reality TV jobbie.

Where did you get to?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

If you want to watch a good documentary, I don't think TV is the place to go, unless it's HBO; they can make some excellent documentaries. I have particularly enjoyed their three part documentary series on the West Memphis Three (wiki it).

[OrphanPip]

Hot Coffee is another HBO documentary that's really interesting, about the state of civil lawsuits in the USA and what the film argues has been a trend towards increasing limits on the freedom of individuals to challenge corporations in court.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1445203/

I like Herzog's "documentaries" too, but they're not traditional documentaries.

[cacian]

War documentaries
The world has moved on, they have not it. Constand rehashing a past that has long gone but too obvious that some do not wish to let go of it.
A continous stream of samy dated adverts makes all the worse for it.
There will come a point where an advert will look like a documentary and vice versa..hummm..time to start a new channel me think!

[Paulclem]

Having watched a number of war documentaries, the better ones have really added to my understanding of WW2, particularly the Russian campaign.

There are some rubbish ones about though.

The world has moved on, they have not

Has the world moved on though Cacian? Has it moved on from the Korean war, which is still officially going on?

I think the leaders after WW1 tried, against the odds, to move on, but a certain person and his cronies wanted to start it up again. History is very important in understanding conflicts, and may be vital to avoid reptitions of the same. This is one of the reasons I don't like many documentaries. They should treat important history with a deep pan attitude. Instead what we get is thin and crispy.

[Delta40]

I watched the WWII in colour documentaries which was strange at first. But I realised adding colour somehow makes history more recent and I wondered if it would make WWII more interesting to the younger generation.

[Paulclem]

It probably would.

As a kid I always used to think of WW2 as way back in the past, though it was quite an influence in film and books when I was growing up. When I think back now I realise that was born less than 20 years after, which, paradoxically, seems to have brought me closer to the events the older and further away from it I get. (I think that's the age perspective).

[Hildegard52]

.time to start a new channelhttp://www.datasea.info/avatar2.jpg

[kasie]

I watched that Lost City prog, Paul, and found it disappointingly superficial - it didn't really perk up until they got to the electronic mapping bit and I could have done without the 'sepia' drama-doc beginning. They didn't go into how all those huge blocks of stone were moved, either.

However, you seem to be missing She Wolves and Orbit, both worth a look.

[Lokasenna]

I too decry the general trend of the dumbing down of documentaries. Anything with David Attenborough remains good, though sadly he is unlikely to be doing them for much longer. I used to really love the BBC's Horizon programme, but it's been many years now since that was good. Rather than going for an informative, impersonal and detailed study of something one is unlikely to know much about, such as super-massive blackholes or supervolcanoes, they now usually have some drivelling, uneducated and unspecialised comedian/journalist/actor who 'wants to learn something' about a subject that has a quirky angle to it, but isn't real science. Occassionally, this can work - the Horizon that featured Michael Portillo investigating the 'best' method of execution was thoughtful and informative, and his presence significantly added to the ethical/practical debtate. But then when you have something like (the completely uneducated and uninformed) Danny Wallace looking at chimpanzees (a programme so cretinous that it might reasonably have been subtitled 'Chimps do the funniest things'), you see how far it detracts from actual scientific inquiry - it simply becomes a sounding board for the vacuous celeb.

And another thing - I've begun to realise you should never watch a documentary on a subject you know a lot about. Whether this is because of dumbing down, or whether it has always been thus, I don't know - but I'm amazed at how inaccurate (and misleading) some of the documentaries I have recently seen have been. I've seen a couple in the last few years that have dealt with Old Norse/Viking things, or with illuminated manuscripts, or with medieval practices, and so on. Almost without exception, I've been horrified at how out of touch they seem to be with the subject. I watched one documentary about archaeological excavations in Iceland, and what that told us about 'Viking' life (even calling it 'Viking' isn't strictly accurate by that point in history) - it was all well and good, though the points were fairly facile and self-evident, but then they produced a copy of Laxdoela saga as a kind of trump card, to verify what they were saying. They were talking about it as if it were some kind of recently discovered thing, as if no one had even looked at the corpus of medieval Icelandic literature before now - never mind that that particular saga has been in English circulation since the late 19th century! The whole thing cries out of either abominable research, or a deliberate altering of the facts to present a better 'story' to the investigation.

[Idril]

And another thing - I've begun to realise you should never watch a documentary on a subject you know a lot about.

There have been a few documentaries made about the oil boom in Western North Dakota and I was very nervous about watching them. One of them, Crude Independence, is actually about the town I grew up in. I was nervous they would make the residents look like idiots, or the residents themselves would make them look like idiots :p but I have to say, once I finally watched it, I was fairly pleased with the way the town, it's residents and it's struggles were portrayed. And because it's so near to my heart, I was worried about the tone it would take. The majority of the state think this is the best thing that's ever happened to us but the majority of the state doesn't live in western North Dakota. Most of the press about this boom is positive and glowing but the realities for the communities involved is very different. I had to sort of build up my resolve before I let myself watch it but again, I was pleased that it was a very balanced report. It's incomplete because things keep moving forward and new worries and battles come up every day but it was a good starting point. There is another documentary, Boomtown that features Parshall, an other small town about 35 miles or so southeast of where I grew up but I haven't seen that one yet. I need to build up more resolve. :wink5:

[kiki1982]

Haha, or the presenter who is going to collapse of joy or amazement. :lol: I have learned to watch past this because otherwise I can hardly watch anything on the Beeb... Particularly that Scotsman from Coast is good at it. Although the rest of his presenting is adequate.

Oh, or recently we watched Revealed on Channel 4 about the Nazi Titanic film. I admit, I had to seriously do my best not to start laughing when they depicted Goebbels as the kind of typical gangster figure staring out of the window :lol: or looking round with this intent stare, half in the shade and watching the final result of his film, and I had to sit through this awful dramatic narrator's voice, but it was worth it in the end... I learned something at least...

That about 'not watching anything which you know a lot about'... Fancy hearing Dimbleby declaring that a round table against the wall in Westminster (?) is the actual table of King Arthur???? Since when did king Arthur exist and did he have a round table???? The rest of those programs were great though.

The most hilarious bit of docu/reality I find must be Lambing live :lol: :smilielol5: It's a stupid idea in the first place because which sheep is going to drop there and then? But the enthusiasm of the presenter!

[Delta40]

I rather liked Neil Oliver's A History of Great Britain and the other historical docos he's done.

[Veho]

Nature documentaries are good especially David Attenborough's, like Lokasenna said. They can be brutal though and it makes me sad, I realise it's nature though. The BBC do some decent documentaries sometimes really (and their period dramas are the best).

[kiki1982]

I rather liked Neil Oliver's A History of Great Britain and the other historical docos he's done.

Yes, Neil Oliver, that's him. Oh, I like his documentaries! Very good storyteller, but sometimes you swear he's going to hyperventilate for sheer excitement... I think that was in A History of Scotland.


Nature documentaries are good especially David Attenborough's, like Lokasenna said. They can be brutal though and it makes me sad, I realise it's nature though. The BBC do some decent documentaries sometimes really (and their period dramas are the best).

Can't agree on the period dramas, but I can on the documentaries.

Andrew Marr makes good ones and that guy with his hat.
Oh, and not to forget Empire.

Do you think they're aiming to get the patriotic feel up for the Olympics and the Jubilee, or something? Delightful, that subliminal propaganda. :D I mean, the one tonight was 'why the English think they are a chosen people.' hmmmm some kind of purpose there... :devil:

[Veho]

Yes, Neil Oliver, that's him. Oh, I like his documentaries! Very good storyteller, but sometimes you swear he's going to hyperventilate for sheer excitement... I think that was in A History of Scotland.



Can't agree on the period dramas, but I can on the documentaries.

Andrew Marr makes good ones and that guy with his hat.
Oh, and not to forget Empire.

Do you think they're aiming to get the patriotic feel up for the Olympics and the Jubilee, or something? Delightful, that subliminal propaganda. :D I mean, the one tonight was 'why the English think they are a chosen people.' hmmmm some kind of purpose there... :devil:

You don't like BBC period dramas? Can this be true?!? Can it??? :D

Yes, Andrew Marr does do decent ones. I watched him in one not too long ago but I forget what it was. Who do you mean by the guy in the hat?

Michael Palin's documentaries are also very interesting. He is great though.

Was Empire on recently because I can't remember it and I've not been in the UK for a few months and don't know how to watch BBC now. I guess we must be building up for the games - I'd not noticed it though. Trust me to move out of the country when we are host to the Olympics!

[LitNetIsGreat]

You don't like BBC period dramas? Can this be true?!? Can it??? :D

Yes that's what I was thinking.



Yes, Andrew Marr does do decent ones. I watched him in one not too long ago but I forget what it was. Who do you mean by the guy in the hat?

Michael Palin's documentaries are also very interesting. He is great though.

Was Empire on recently because I can't remember it and I've not been in the UK for a few months and don't know how to watch BBC now. I guess we must be building up for the games - I'd not noticed it though. Trust me to move out of the country when we are host to the Olympics!

The Andrew Marr one might have been about British Prime Ministers. Yes I like Michael Palin as well but I think he's done his travel stuff to death now.

[Delta40]

Tony Robinson gives me the willies as a presenter. He'll forever be Baldrick for one thing and I often find his docos to be second rate.

[Veho]

Yes that's what I was thinking.



The Andrew Marr one might have been about British Prime Ministers. Yes I like Michael Palin as well but I think he's done his travel stuff to death now.

No, it wasn't that one. I'm trying to think of it now but can't. You're right about Palin but I'd still watch it if he did another. It'd no doubt beat anything else on the television that night. Melvyn Bragg did a documentary on the history of the English language called The Adventure of English which was relatively interesting actually but it's quite an old program.

I'm very shocked that Brian Cox hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet! I find his programs interesting actually even though some of it still confuses me but wish he would resist the pull towards celebrity status.

[hawthorns]

I have to agree with the original post. Documentaries as a whole have gone downhill, especially in the last few years. Most are heavy on drama and light on substance. Many more are poorly researched with "ball park" facts. However, there was one movie documentary that I really enjoyed: Touching The Void. Here are my favorites:

Touching the Void
World War II in HD
Victory at Sea
Winged Migration
March of the Penguins

I've seen others done by various history channels that were packed with good info and passable recreations on the middle ages, but I can't remember their titles. Most of them were better than the movie documentaries.

[Delta40]

I loved March of the Penguins!

[prendrelemick]

Horizen Equinox and Arena were always good, (are they still on?) treating the viewer as a grown up, they tackled difficult concepts and subjects and usually managed to get them across.

All downhill from there though. I saw that Egyptian moving city thing too, it was my kind of subject, but was just awful. You know you are watching a dumbed down doc if the music is too loud and all dramatic. The presenters behave like conjourers - after teasing for a few minutes they produce "amazing" facts like rabbits out of hats - usually old and obvious facts. Every documentary must now be a "journey" or a story, it must have a beginning, middle and end, it must have its drama and turning points, it must be resolved to swelling music and end with a soundbite.

High marks are Betany Hughes and Michael Woods, they write and present their own stuff and are experts in their field. Betany is prepared to present her personal view and start sentences with "I think" rather than "Some historians now believe."

ps. Was it that David Hockney thing Andrew Marr did?

[cacian]

I watched
How God Made The English
yesterday saturday on BBC2, anyone seen it?

[prendrelemick]

I missed that one, I shall look for the repeats.

[LitNetIsGreat]

ps. Was it that David Hockney thing Andrew Marr did?

Or was it to do with the history of Britain from the 1850s onwards? Maybe I'm still thinking of the Prime Minister thing?

I agree with Mick on dramatic music. This is a sure sign to turn it off.

Melvin Bragg is OK but he really bores the life out of me and the stuff he does seems to have been done before many times. I started watching his latest outing on class, a three part thing, but gave up somewhere in the middle. It was just full of old cliches and pointless sides, with some good bits in-between.

I don't mind Michael Portillo. He does that train journey thing that goes on forever, anybody seen that? That's not bad in places if only to take in the scenery. I think the latest one is based around Ireland. I've only seen one episode of that though. I'll watch it if it happens to be on.

Edit: I think good old IMDB has cracked the Andrew Marr puzzle, has to be one of those:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1070816/

The Diamond Queen, JFK - Modern Politics or Darwin's Dangerous Idea.

[kiki1982]

Yes that's what I was thinking.

The Andrew Marr one might have been about British Prime Ministers. Yes I like Michael Palin as well but I think he's done his travel stuff to death now.

Haha, I'll take the hint :D.

I think you are all talking about Andrew Marr's A History of Modern Britain or something. That was very interesting.

I used to find Michael Palin a creep and uncultured Englishman as a teenager! :lol: He used to be on with his journey around the world in 80 days and its sequels on the equivalent of BBC2 in Belgium (which buys a lot from the BBC). Needless to say my perception has changed. I used to think of him like that hilarious scene in Indiana Jones where they send this British 'spy' to Egypt I think it is and they claim 'he will blend in with the crowd over there.' The next shot you see is a man in a white suit and a white hat with black ribban (typical colonialist), talking Oxford or Eton English to everyone. :lol: Blend in, indeed...

I found Tribeby Bruce Perry (?) very good.


Tony Robinson gives me the willies as a presenter. He'll forever be Baldrick for one thing and I often find his docos to be second rate.

:lol: that's what I think all the time when I come across Time Team... Such a shame, that program. If they could just let someone else, but the presenter talk... That's such a dumbed down documentary.


I don't mind Michael Portillo. He does that train journey thing that goes on forever, anybody seen that? That's not bad in places if only to take in the scenery. I think the latest one is based around Ireland. I've only seen one episode of that though. I'll watch it if it happens to be on.

Ugh, Michael Portillo. The voice! I just can't watch it forever. It's good when I'm tired and I can't be bothered to do anything else but sit in front of the telly. There is another thing on like that about walks. My hubby and I have decided to go for a cycle along those old train lines or canals when we are over some time. Looks great.

The man in the hat I was talking about was the man of How God made the English yesterday. He is entertaining.

Good stuff that was. Went a bit quick, but it was rather interesting.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Ugh, Michael Portillo. The voice!

Yes I don't usually like Tory politicians as a rule (or any politician much) but he's OK I think.


My hubby and I have decided to go for a cycle along those old train lines or canals when we are over some time. Looks great.

Yes there are a lot of them, which perhaps shows the state of the trains, but at least they are making use of them. I'm biking to Liverpool or the other coast in the summer haven't decide yet and I'm biking to York in April. Not bad being able to bike all off road like that. The TPT (Trans Pennine Trail) goes from coast to coast through Yorkshire for about 200 miles, with separate trails to York and yucky Leeds. There are many of such trails opening up everywhere.

[kasie]

Empire is on a the moment, Veho - the first episode was a bit vague and lacking in direction, somewhat unusual for Paxo! - but it has picked up in the following episodes.

I suspect you are all right about the present glut of terribly British documentaries atm on BBC - the Diamond Jubilee and the Olympics in one year, how could they resist it!

I hope Huw Edwards' series on the History of Wales makes it on to the rest of BBC, not just BBCWales - he's made a few documentaries for home consumption that don't seem to be shown elsewhere. Perhaps he is aiming to emulate Andrew Marr's post-news reporter career?

[Paulclem]

After what I said when I posted this thread, I've just seen two really good ones - Scorsese on George Harrison, and one on William Golding.

I agree with Loka's assessment of the Horizon progs. I watched one on the sub-conscious which did have some interesting points, but wasn't as good as I had expected.

[tonywalt]

There is a Documentary channel I receive with my Dishnetwork package. It's fairly good, but because it has to appeal to the vacuous vapid masses, there is quite a few dummed downed documentaries-but some are brilliant. There may others on this board that get this channel, if you have a US Dish package.

The most annoying change in the last few years is the History Channel, no longer showing history, but RUBBISH such as Larry the Cable Guy, Fun with Taxidermy, Extreme Alaska type shows (essentially extremely annoying rednecks doing extremely annoying things with a wallop of contrived Drama usually involving alot of screaming at each other). Oh yes, then there is Ax Men, which is more extremely annoying rednecks doing extremely annoying things with a wallop of contrived Drama usually involving alot of screaming at each other.

Sadly it is what the massses want, my couisins and also rugby club players all now watch the "History Channel". And to be honest - they like it:confused:

They did try to cure the situation by creating a History Channel 2, which was history when it started a couple years ago, now it's same old rubbish. Alot of biographies on iconic figures such as Britney Spears and Clay Aiken:Yawn:

[Delta40]

I only get the basic package on Foxtel but what annoys the crap out of me on Nat Geo & Discovery channels are those countless crappy shows about bikes and cars. American Chopper, Chop Shop and that gun family for Christ sakes!

[Paulclem]

Yes = all the above are crap. In addition can I add all those deadly dull trucker programmes. Trucking is not an interesting job.

Also Dog the bounty Hunter - sounds interesting until you realise he's arresting people for not paying fines.

[Delta40]

Hear, Hear!

[Veho]

Yes = all the above are crap. In addition can I add all those deadly dull trucker programmes. Trucking is not an interesting job.

Also Dog the bounty Hunter - sounds interesting until you realise he's arresting people for not paying fines.

I concur! I always think on programs like Deadly Truckers, or whatever it's called, and American Chopper that they make up the situations and arguments just for the television and for that reason I can't watch them.

[Delta40]

I concur! I always think on programs like Deadly Truckers, or whatever it's called, and American Chopper that they make up the situations and arguments just for the television and for that reason I can't watch them.

The Tuttle family have to make money somehow I guess :smile5:

[Veho]

The Tuttle family have to make money somehow I guess :smile5:

Haha, true - it's just a shame it has to be at our expense (and I don't mean monetary).

[Delta40]

Yeah it's pretty bad when you don't even watch the show but you can still follow the drama of the biker family just through the ads!