Faith , Religion or Something Else?

[cacian]

if one is born to a religion, then one is not given a choice over it whether they like or not they might be born into a christian/catholic/Jewish/Islamist set of believes that if may conflict with that individual's character and personality and impose themselves on his or her life.
It appears that religion infringes on one's freedom of choice and therefore a world without religion is best.

I prefer to discover my own faith/beliefs. I am better for it if I decided for myself whether there was another higher being,


Discuss

[YesNo]

Whether it is religion or politics, some people will always want to impose themselves on others. One of the nice things is that we have access to information so we can make a choice if we are interested in an alternative.

[PMLondonderry]

The individual can leave their birth religion and convert to anything they want. I was born into an Irish Catholic family and I left the religion and joined Islam. (by the way, original poster, one who follows Islam is not called an "Islamist." They are called a "Muslim." Islamist is turning into an insulting word since it's usually used to describe radicals on the news.)

I am thankful to have been brought up with a foundation of another religion. I have studied world religion my entire life and I have the gift of first-hand experience in more than one religion now. Because of my parents and my Christian upbringing, I can understand my own holy text now since Judaism and Christianity are the foundations of Islam. Because of that history, I have an incredibly open mind to other faiths as well. I am a pluralist, a free thinker, and I tend to avoid institutionalized religion. I wouldn't follow a religion if it did not enrich my life. I wish people gave me more credit that I know what is good for me and what isn't.

So no, it doesn't take away from a child's freedom of choice. The child can leave the religion whenever the child wants to.

Religion also does not infringe on anyone's freedom of choice. I believe in free will and I have the freedom to do whatever I want to do. What I'm told not to do is: kill people, talk badly about others, hoard my riches without sharing, lie, drink, engage in premarital sex, display my body for the world to see, eat pork, ignore God by never praying to Him, etc. My commandments are there to keep myself and other people safe. Outside of the commandments that I am given, I can strive to be and do whatever I want.

[Darcy88]

I know a whole heck of a lot of people who do not practice the religion of their childhood. So in most cases I don't think religion anymore significantly restricts freedom, though mormonism is another matter altogether.

[Charles Darnay]

Religion also does not infringe on anyone's freedom of choice.


Religion doesn't infringe on people's freedom of choice but people infringe on others' freedom of choice in the name of religion. It is great that you were able to discover a new faith and embrace it along the way. I too did not have religion forced upon me or ingrained into me as a child and am now quite familiar with the beliefs of many religions. Not everyone finds themselves in this position. Indoctrination or a parent's lack in ability to allow their child to make such decisions are all too common.

[Paulclem]

Religion isn't just matter of oppression or freedom. It's also supportive, provides identity and common culture. In Poland during the Soviet era, the church provided a cultural link to the pre-Soviet past, was a place where a religious choice could be made, and was an element of cultural opposition to the communists. In China, religion does the same thing in Tibet and Muslim areas. It can provide an alternative view to the prevailing view of authority as it did in Nazi Germany.

It's far too simplistic to merely state religion is this or does that.

[cafolini]

Whether it is religion or politics, some people will always want to impose themselves on others. One of the nice things is that we have access to information so we can make a choice if we are interested in an alternative.

Please specify where you have access to information anytime you say something like this, because in more than half the world you do not have it.
Good point anyway.

[YesNo]

I agree that most people don't have access to information and even the access that I have is limited.

[PMLondonderry]

Religion doesn't infringe on people's freedom of choice but people infringe on others' freedom of choice in the name of religion.

That's absolutely correct. Religion is sort of like nuclear power...it can bring light and be a blessing to many people, but it can produce a lot of waste and can be very destructive. It just depends whose hands it's in.

This is why I approach religion outside of institutions and I view it with a much more spiritual mind than a doctrine-oriented mind. This sounds like a paradox coming from a follower of a religion that is, arguably, very totalitarian. I, however, don't see it that way even though I read and follow the same book that totalitarians read and follow. It's pretty amazing how many different opinions and interpretations you can draw from one single source.

[cafolini]

That's absolutely correct. Religion is sort of like nuclear power...it can bring light and be a blessing to many people, but it can produce a lot of waste and can be very destructive. It just depends whose hands it's in.

This is why I approach religion outside of institutions and I view it with a much more spiritual mind than a doctrine-oriented mind. This sounds like a paradox coming from a follower of a religion that is, arguably, very totalitarian. I, however, don't see it that way even though I read and follow the same book that totalitarians read and follow. It's pretty amazing how many different opinions and interpretations you can draw from one single source.

This is pretty clever. It gave me a good laugh. Good speech. The same could be said about anything you read.

[Bad Grass]

I find it interesting that very few know of whence they came.

The planet Earth does not yield intelligence; not to any creature, foliage or creepy thing.

Don’t you find it a little peculiar that mankind is the only species on the planet with intelligence.

If it is not rendered by Earth, then wherefore is it rendered?

Intelligence is inherited to man, not by man.

Again, I find it peculiar you are dismissive of your own existence.

Yes, freedom to all. But I’m not convinced you will find another higher-being or even extra-terrestrial intelligence anytime soon. Why? Because it doesn’t exist except through man (inheritance). That’s why there are no radio signals coming to us from other civilized worlds.

I’ll leave my faith where it is firmly rooted: In the word of God.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think that being born into a religion doesn't restrict someone's freedom to choose a religion, or lack thereof, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say if one is raised by a religious family, it's most likely going to influence their choice no matter what--most will stay that religion, some may leave it out of rebellion or personal choice.

So, I think the question becomes, what does freedom of choice really mean? If one has been so heavily influenced in one way or another since birth, does that person really have "freedom" to choose?


I find it interesting that very few know of whence they came.

The planet Earth does not yield intelligence; not to any creature, foliage or creepy thing.

Don’t you find it a little peculiar that mankind is the only species on the planet with intelligence.

If it is not rendered by Earth, then wherefore is it rendered?

Intelligence is inherited to man, not by man.

Again, I find it peculiar you are dismissive of your own existence.

Yes, freedom to all. But I’m not convinced you will find another higher-being or even extra-terrestrial intelligence anytime soon. Why? Because it doesn’t exist except through man (inheritance). That’s why there are no radio signals coming to us from other civilized worlds.

I’ll leave my faith where it is firmly rooted: In the word of God.
I think Bad Grass may be smoking some bad grass. Or maybe it's just Crispin Glover at the keyboard.

[Bad Grass]

Nope. Just bad grass.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Nope. Just bad grass.

:lol: Well played, sir.

And welcome to the forums.

[BienvenuJDC]

Without any documentation (just an educated guess), I would say that very few people stick to the religion that they were born into (just because they were born into it) these days. I think that many Catholics in the past have remained Catholic because it was expected of them, but that is getting less common. As far as any religion forcing people to stay in it, there are some stories about Muslims being forced to stay or face consequences for conversion. There are some cults that have been known for it, but very few and far between.

[tailor STATELY]

Darcy88
Registered User

I know a whole heck of a lot of people who do not practice the religion of their childhood. So in most cases I don't think religion anymore significantly restricts freedom, though mormonism is another matter altogether.

As a late convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I'm trying to wrap my mind around the above quote. I've never been freer to grow personally and spiritually. I am not trapped by addictions (chocolate doesn't count does it ?); nor hindered socially. I use my agency wisely to avoid making bad choices which might lead to consequences I can not control. I try very hard to live my faith every day; and that brings me more happiness than I ever had before. Plus, I get to sing in the choir !

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[cacian]

Whether it is religion or politics, some people will always want to impose themselves on others. One of the nice things is that we have access to information so we can make a choice if we are interested in an alternative.

Indeed but wouldn't it be better if one did not have to make any changes at the first place because it is hard work and frankly depressing.
Having to be brought up/born to a society that has already engrained establishements such rigid unbent ruly religons and politcal dismays and corruptions that dictate to one who they should be from the word go.
It is despicable in our day and age to think that one has to recourse to negating one's cultures/relgions and politic in order to be achieve one's identity.
It is easily said then done to suggest switching ffrom these little dictatorships in order to achieve some kind of freedom, the consequences of such activites imposed on someone are not without conequences.

[BienvenuJDC]

Indeed but wouldn't it be better if one did not have to make any changes at the first place because it is hard work and frankly depressing.
Having to be brought up/born to a society that has already engrained establishements such rigid unbent ruly religons and politcal dismays and corruptions that dictate to one who they should be from the word go.
It is despicable in our day and age to think that one has to recourse to negating one's cultures/relgions and politic in order to be achieve one's identity.
It is easily said then done to suggest switching ffrom these little dictatorships in order to achieve some kind of freedom, the consequences of such activites imposed on someone are not without conequences.


No, it wouldn't. No matter how a child was raised (in religion or without) there would be choices to make and "engrained establishments". From my perspective, I see one raised in a godless environment in just the same manner.

[YesNo]

Indeed but wouldn't it be better if one did not have to make any changes at the first place because it is hard work and frankly depressing.

I agree with BienvenuJDC that whether there is religion in the home or not the problem you are describing would be the same.

However, I would add that I think having problems is not entirely bad. They force one to come up with solutions which might be quite creative. I think it is more of an opportunity than not.

[Palmer3]

One of the nice things is that we have access to information so we can make a choice if we are interested in an alternative.http://www.subeducation.info/avatar2.jpg

[PMLondonderry]

I find it interesting that very few know of whence they came.

The planet Earth does not yield intelligence; not to any creature, foliage or creepy thing.

Don’t you find it a little peculiar that mankind is the only species on the planet with intelligence.



I’ll leave my faith where it is firmly rooted: In the word of God.

I think this is a very common attitude towards nature by Abrahamic followers. I think followers of Abrahamic religions tend to shrug aside nature and assume it is here for our use only and it is submissive to us. What a sad thing to believe. God created nature in its purest form (descriptions of nature being in heaven is all over the holy books. Especially the Qur'an) and the Qur'an talks about animals worshiping God constantly, just by being what they are. Nature is pure and created by God.

The other thing to understand is that humans are not the only being with intelligence. This is easy to understand especially if you live with animals. I lived on a ranch with cows, horses, goats, dogs, pigs, etc. and the animals that I raised were incredibly intelligent and had a sense of culture and politics within their species. Horses, for example, have a social hierarchy (called the "pecking-order". Horses will line up for food based on their standing in the social ladder), elephants will morn their young when they die and even have a funeral-type ritual before leaving the area where another elephant died. certain types of primates will use tools to fish for food. Animals are God's creation and are here for us to protect and take care of--not here as tools for our use and food for us to eat. It is our responsibility, as stewards of the planet, to take care of them and respect them. This also goes for our environment. I see an attitude among Abrahamic peoples who believe that environmentalism is a liberal "hippy" thing and it's incredibly upsetting. It is almost as though many of us assume that, since God will destroy the earth anyway, why do we need to take care of it? We have a job to take care of the earth that God gave to us and created for us. It is in our religion to do so.

By the way, I say all of this as an Abrahamic individual. I criticize my own people harshly because I know it is not in our religion to neglect and dominate over the natural world, but to live in peaceful harmony with it. Do not assume humans are the only things on this planet with intelligence. Half of the humans that I know barely have any intelligence at all.


Indeed but wouldn't it be better if one did not have to make any changes at the first place because it is hard work and frankly depressing.


Not at all. I am extremely thankful that I grew up with a foundation in Christianity because it helps me to understand the foundations of Islam. Without my Christian upbringing, I may not be as open minded to other religions as I am today. I consider it a gift and I plan to raise my children with an Islamic upbringing in hopes that they will either hold onto it as adults (preferred of course), or they will forever respect it because they have an insiders perspective of what it means to follow a particular faith.

[Frohmankf1]

I agree that most people don't have access to information and even the access that I have is limited.http://www.subeducation.info/avatar2.jpg

[BienvenuJDC]

I agree that most people don't have access to information and even the access that I have is limited.http://www.subeducation.info/avatar2.jpg

What do you mean?

[G L Wilson]

As a late convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I'm trying to wrap my mind around the above quote. I've never been freer to grow personally and spiritually. I am not trapped by addictions (chocolate doesn't count does it ?); nor hindered socially. I use my agency wisely to avoid making bad choices which might lead to consequences I can not control. I try very hard to live my faith every day; and that brings me more happiness than I ever had before. Plus, I get to sing in the choir !

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

Plus, you get to wear magic underpants don't forget.

[G L Wilson]

Religion is mind control period

[Paulclem]

Religion is mind control period

Far too simplistic reflecting a simple appraisal of what is an extremely complex phenomenon.

Not only are there many religions lumped into this statement of yours, but millions of practitioners. What you suggest is that the greater part of the planet are effectively robots controlled by religion central.

Why don't you widen your view a little beyond your local examples and prejudices to come up with something a bit more than the froth of a generalisation?

Ellipses....

[JuniperWoolf]

Plus, you get to wear magic underpants don't forget.

Haha, what?

[G L Wilson]

Haha, what?

Magic underpants are worn by Mormons to ward off all sorts of evil. Ask them, it won't be denied.

[Darcy88]

Magic underpants are worn by Mormons to ward off all sorts of evil. Ask them, it won't be denied.

I'm depressed that mormonism has made its way to being mentioned and discussed on my online intellectual haven. I'm going to go cry now.

[cafolini]

I think that being born into a religion doesn't restrict someone's freedom to choose a religion, or lack thereof, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say if one is raised by a religious family, it's most likely going to influence their choice no matter what--most will stay that religion, some may leave it out of rebellion or personal choice.

So, I think the question becomes, what does freedom of choice really mean? If one has been so heavily influenced in one way or another since birth, does that person really have "freedom" to choose?


I think Bad Grass may be smoking some bad grass. Or maybe it's just Crispin Glover at the keyboard.

Correct. I'm not going to argue that religion takes away freedom of choice, but rather that not being presented with alternatives, having to proceed or blow up in despair, they'll give up searching for other possibilities and they'll integrate by force into what's rewarded within their environment.

"The talent of children to endure stems from lacking alternatives." ~ Maya Angelou.

[cacian]

I think that being born into a religion doesn't restrict someone's freedom to choose a religion, or lack thereof, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say if one is raised by a religious family, it's most likely going to influence their choice no matter what--most will stay that religion, some may leave it out of rebellion or personal choice
Being born to a religion to me is like being born to an imposition because I was not there to chose whether I wanted to be imposed on me or not, I see it as infrigement on my freedom of choice.
It is a bit like being born to a labour party that governs our state.
I did not chose Labour and yet I am bron to be part of it.
You may see it differently and I can understand where you are coming from but I see it differently because at the end of the day it boils to me having to fight it back or reject or deny it which frankly I consider shocking that I have to fight something I was not responsible for at the first place.
This is a free world but religions do not allow to be so.

So, I think the question becomes, what does freedom of choice really mean? If one has been so heavily influenced in one way or another since birth, does that person really have "freedom" to choose?
Freedom of choice is just saying I decide for myself how to think be and live my life the way I see fit without other exterior influences to dictate to me what I should do with who I am.
It is bad enough one has to adhere to a 9 to 5 job, run a family and expect to achieve happiness on top of all the aggravations mistakes and experiences one has to go through.

[Kingbob]

One can get rid of his born religion if he or she doesn't like it and convert to anything he or she wants. We live for ourselves，not others. We should have the right to choose our own beliefs.

[tailor STATELY]

My experience with faith growing up was the cafeteria style of faith - choose which doctrines you like and live them; and the others - not so much. God's great gift of agency allows us to grow and choose for ourselves the path we choose to take; hence children in my faith are not baptized until 8 years of age; and even then, some choose to leave the church later on in life.


Plus, you get to wear magic underpants don't forget.

Lol. I generally run across the above terminology in hate speech against my faith; but I will consider the source with affection.

Wearing the Temple garment reminds me of the promises I have made in the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Temple and means I have chosen to live my life to a set standard.

Not all members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wear the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment There are age and other constraints, including agency, that will hinder some members of the church in wearing the Temple garment.

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[Eiseabhal]

If someone asked me if I wore magic underpants, I reckon I wouldn't deny it either.

[cafolini]

Being born to a religion to me is like being born to an imposition because I was not there to chose whether I wanted to be imposed on me or not, I see it as infrigement on my freedom of choice.
It is a bit like being born to a labour party that governs our state.
I did not chose Labour and yet I am bron to be part of it.
You may see it differently and I can understand where you are coming from but I see it differently because at the end of the day it boils to me having to fight it back or reject or deny it which frankly I consider shocking that I have to fight something I was not responsible for at the first place.
This is a free world but religions do not allow to be so.

Freedom of choice is just saying I decide for myself how to think be and live my life the way I see fit without other exterior influences to dictate to me what I should do with who I am.
It is bad enough one has to adhere to a 9 to 5 job, run a family and expect to achieve happiness on top of all the aggravations mistakes and experiences one has to go through.

People give their children what they have to give. You wouldn't expect a young child to know how to make all possible choices. They are always educated in the way that it is possible by the parents. How could that be an imposition? Ridiculous argument. When the child matures, he/she can make his/her choices. But a child cannot mature in vaccuo.

[hannah_arendt]

People give their children what they have to give. You wouldn't expect a young child to know how to make all possible choices. They are always educated in the way that it is possible by the parents. How could that be an imposition? Ridiculous argument. When the child matures, he/she can make his/her choices. But a child cannot mature in vaccuo.

I think that a child should have right to choose what he/she wants to believe in. Parents should show all the possibilities but shouldn`t impose on their child anything.

[cacian]

I think that a child should have right to choose what he/she wants to believe in. Parents should show all the possibilities but shouldn`t impose on their child anything.

I agree. I think a child should have less decisions to make up on behalf of institutions. It is very difficult to shift institutionalised etiquettes cultural stigmas once they are formed. The less one has to chose and make up about something they were not involved with at the first place and the better they are for it.
There are more interesting things in life that a child can concentrate in such as learning to communicate and form relationships that are long lasting.

[kari]

I agree in part of what you said initially. People should be allowed to choose. I don't think that means people shouldn't be born into a certain faith or religion, but that people should be more accepting in understanding we are all different, and therefore, can require different things to keep us happy and inspire us to be better people. The idea that what works for one means it is right for all others is the downfall....the lack tolerance really. Religion can be good, I think. It can set people up in ways that they may need in their life, start them out on a good path. But a path to grow as a person. When people prevent that growth, when a person is hitting their limitation within a religion and is made to feel guilty or awful for wanting to soar, that is when it is terrible. As for my own children, I try to teach them about many different faiths in a generic manner, and truly allow them to believe what they choose. A relationship with God is between you and Him, no one else. You get to create that with Him in a way that works best for the both of you.