Nowadays, are we too bound up with the paper and ink presentation of poetry?

[Paulclem]

I was wondering today if poetry would benefit from being presented differently to just the paper and ink version we usually see. Of course it's also a vocal medium, and I think that performance element is good. One British poet who made good for a while with this was John Cooper Clarke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euD0o0x-jAo

Although the poem is accompanied, the music is secondary to the vocalised poetry, and he can be heard without this. (His accent is from Lancashire).

There was quite a popular thread on here that discussed the poetry in songs, but there the emphasis is on the music first.

It's not a new idea of course, as concrete poems have been around since the 17th century with George Herbert's Easter Wings:

http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/herbert/easterwings.htm

As I said, concrete poems have been around for a long time, but they don't seem to be taken seriously, and you mainly see them associated with school poetry projects.

There's also lines of poetry accompanying art, and kitsch posters, but there the emphasis is definately on the art/ photography.

So could technology be employed to present poetry? Already within poems there are forms - line lengths, repetitions, rhymes of various kinds, imagery, metaphor, similies, stresses and structure.

In addition there could be narration, timings of the lines appearing, colour, orginal art and photography and music, so long as these didn't loosen the emphasis of the language. In this way new forms could be developed into a three dimensional aspect from the two deimentional one on the page, particularly by using timings.

What do you reckon? Could it take poetry from an essentially first millennium form into the second?

[YesNo]

The line breaks in poetry could be replaced with something more interesting such as sound or video.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think once you get into other elements like video or sound (other than straight poetry readings) it becomes a different art form altogether.

And I don't think poetry is taken any less seriously than it has in recent history. Few enough people read, and even fewer read poetry--it's not an art form for the masses.

[Paulclem]

I think once you get into other elements like video or sound (other than straight poetry readings) it becomes a different art form altogether.

And I don't think poetry is taken any less seriously than it has in recent history. Few enough people read, and even fewer read poetry--it's not an art form for the masses.

it becomes a different art form altogether.

What art form would you call it?

even fewer read poetry

Which is why I posed the question.

[JCamilo]

Well, depends, if you sing, add a guitar, etc, you have music. If you add a video, you have cinema.

The key thing is that a poem does not have music, but his words make us think there is music. Like Borges said, it remember to have sound one day, just like a portrait remember to be a person one day.

The ink is not a problem, Paul. Newspapper are widely read and are in ink. The problem is that we are in a different tradition where prose (as different to poems, not poetry itself) is what most people are used with. People like Flaubert, Joyce or Baudelaire perceived it long ago and worked with poetry in prose to satisfy this new kind of reader. So, now you can have very good prose that is competitive with poems, in terms of language quality.

[JBI]

The idea of mixed mediums is hardly something new. Poetry in much of the world has been closely linked to the forms of music since ancient times. In much of the world, poetry has been paired with calligraphy - in Chinese-influenced traditions it has been paired with painting. It depends really on how the tradition reads every form - I think the paper and ink works for the West, as we have conceived of poetry as that sort of thing for at least 400 years now. All attempts at "sound" poems or visual poems have been more or less annoying with a very few exceptions, which are rarer than rare.

It is not really the form that makes the artwork anyway. Any poet who lets the form dominate the poem is probably not a very good one - something like Blake's Tyger is the perfection of poem and form - as it combines with its illustration to produce I would argue the most powerful artistic experience of English poetry - that is why it sticks in everyone's head.

But what do we make of videos? Well, the poem is a read idea, and has its strength in that. Performed poetry has its ups and downs, but the trend in the past 100 years was for less and less - look at the flat tone Obama's Inaugural Poet read in, for instance. Something like Margaret Atwood can only be read flatly.

If we want to talk of music, that is a different form - the question we really need to ask is, are the poems being driven by the music, or is the music driven by the poem. If one can achieve a balance of the two, as I would argue artists like Leonard Cohen can, then things work out, but for the most part, it is the music driving the poem.

[The Comedian]

I think your idea is certainly worth playing around with. I'm teaching a poetry segment in one of my classes right now, and the uniform cry from all of the students that of "hate" for poetry. And most of the students in the class are good students who enjoy reading and the discussion of reading. . . . to a greater or lesser extent. But for them "literature" = story (of some type, usually novels).

Anyway, the section I'm working on is the American modernists: Frost, Williams, H.D., Stevens, Eliot.. . . And I tried something like what you're thinking about with our work with "Proofrock" --

I pitched the poem as, essentially a "soliloquy" and opened the class with a quick explanation of that and a few other poetic concepts present in the poem. Then I set up the in class "work":

I set up the class as a make-shift play: A male volunteered to be Proofrock, seated at a table, alone, reading the poem aloud and very deliberately. I then cast an image of "David" from the overhead projector on to the screen behind poor Proofrock. Then I had some ladies from the class sit a two other tables. Their job was to say a few lines, mumble of "Michelangelo", and generally look lovely.

The rest of the class sat in the audience. A few of the audience members were given what I called "bits of inter-textuality" (A copy of "To His Coy Mistress"; and a few others poetic snippets) to read aloud when I called for them. Me, being the production manager, would pause to reflect on the connected-ness of the texts, plus call for the audience to see and question some of the themes developing and how the poetry of "Proofrock" was creating that development. When Proofrock declared himself no "Hamlet", we paused to see a 4 minute clip of Hamlet's big soliloquy (Thanks Sir Olivier). . .

I think it went over really well. But I tried to accomplish what, I think, you are getting at -- liven up the joy reading poetry, even tough poetry, by incorporating other media without having that other media take over the poem.

[JCamilo]

Well, obviously even teaching turns him to another medium, as teaching is both oral and written. No human expression must shun away from possiblities, we can have some good experiences: when people saw Bright Star here they came asking me about Keats. Obviously there is only 2 full poems there, no real reading, but that was a path to came near to Keats's poetry. One of the person who usually called him "the one who must not be named" because she could not tolerate his poetry, changed her position.

[Paulclem]

The question I'm asking is about retaining the essential words of poetry, but presenting it differently, and so I take your points about music and words becoming songs. I think it's about balance. The clip of John Cooper Clarke has music, but it is definately only an accompaniment. If you get the balance right, perhaps music or colour can add to the tone of a poem.

Looking at the situation now, where do any of us access poetry we don't own? Via the internet - and that's fine. Much of the internet is about text, but whilst it is fine as a textual medium, it also offers mixed media - cheers JBI - as an option for the future. If a poet is serious about the words rather than the effects, they could still use the presentational opportunities to enhance the look, but also the meaning of a poem. It'd be good to see what a really good poet makes of it. Poetry needs a David Hockney to embrace the mediums available.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2397339,00.asp

Of course how teachers present poetry may be crucial to the development of this. That lesson sounded brilliant Comedian. I enjoyed studying Eliot as a paper and ink activity, but how much more did they get from that lesson than we did? Fantastic.

[Paulclem]

After a bit of a browse i came across the term Hypertext Poetry which, from what I saw, is the manipulation of quite short poems into a form which moved in a significant way.

Such as this one by David Knoebel.

http://home.ptd.net/~clkpoet/ohanf/oh.html

This idea has been around for a while it seems. It hasn't come onto my radar yet.

[AuntShecky]

The relationship between music and poetry extends far into the past. (Cue the "Way Back Machine," Mr. Peabody and Sherman!) In ancient Greece, every play was in verse, and tragedies included choruses who "chanted" their lines. The origin of the phrase "lyric" poetry comes from "lyre," a stringed instrument. From the time poetry began, all poems were meant to be "sung."

When I read postings from our fellow LitNutters in the "Personal Poetry" section, I try to see how the meaning and the form are linked. Like the old "Love and Marriage" song, "you can't have one without the other." Good poems have good meanings, and they look good on the page (even if the "page" happens to be a high-tech screen.) I also try to to "hear" the lines in my mind's ear.

It's one thing to attempt experimentation with the creative use of punctuation marks or onamatopeia, but typing desultory characters (without correlating sounds that could possibly exist in the real world) ain't gonna cut it. A reader should be able to read a poem aloud, but how would you pronounce a line like: "Swyymnjklq ^*$ pnbzws" ? (I realize I may have unwittingly typed a couple of words from some obscure language, say from another planet, but I seriously doubt it.)

Finally, Paul Clem's remarks above ^^^ are completely true. Too many people no longer read, and even fewer people read poetry. To that I might add: too many people spend more time writing what they call "poetry" than reading it. The movie Quills (forget the degenerate subject matter for a second) has a memorable line: "You write more than you read. That's the mark of a true amateur."


AuntShecky
"A louse in the locks of literature."

[/dev/null]

It's the big public which should be fixed. Poetry is just fine the way it is.

[Paulclem]

It's the big public which should be fixed. Poetry is just fine the way it is.

But poetry has evolved through time anyway. Our current poetry is the result of poetic development spanning centuries.

[/dev/null]

But poetry has evolved through time anyway. Our current poetry is the result of poetic development spanning centuries.

Sure. But as you say, it is the result of poetic development, this is, evolution of prosody, rhyme, form... The (modernist) process of modernization is just over. All-out high-quality prose poetry is practically unexplored.

Some popular music has grown into legit lyric poetry, but that should benefit written poetry more that to harm it. The same happens with cinema, artists like Bergman, Fellini, Tarkovsky or Bresson can easily be described as visual poets.

There's plenty of exciting options for "poetic artists" these days, and poetry still one of them. I believe everything there is to say can be put in free verse. It's kind of the point.

[cafolini]

There is room for plain poetry. I agree. We are not here to save poetry

[Paulclem]

Sure. But as you say, it is the result of poetic development, this is, evolution of prosody, rhyme, form... The (modernist) process of modernization is just over. All-out high-quality prose poetry is practically unexplored.

Some popular music has grown into legit lyric poetry, but that should benefit written poetry more that to harm it. The same happens with cinema, artists like Bergman, Fellini, Tarkovsky or Bresson can easily be described as visual poets.

There's plenty of exciting options for "poetic artists" these days, and poetry still one of them. I believe everything there is to say can be put in free verse. It's kind of the point.

I'm talking more about the presentation of poetry - preserving the language, but within a more interesting digital form. I'm not talking about the mere presentation though, but an enhanced presentation that adds to the meaning.

The possibility is that presentational methods could enhance the text as rythmn, imagery and rhyme has. What about timing or mood colour? The use of colour could add it's visual effect and free the poet from that particular textual description, or add to it in implying or describing emotions associated with blueness for example.

Sure you could use the word blue, but you wouldn't need to, but could focus upon the nature, implication or association of blue.

It's kind of the point.

Why be constrained when you can retain this "point" and add to it. It's a creative exercise which to me could extend the reach of a poem.

The other point is that digitalisation has already happened. Anyone can read good poetry online. But who does? We hear that fewer people read poetry in its current textual form, so why not experiment. I'm as disinterested in gimmicks as the next person, but incorporating the elements that computers offer could encourage interest and input. The poets are still out there. They are not scribbling in notebooks now, but are typing into a screen.

[Kingbob]

Poetry is developing，so is his form. And poetry still plays an important role in our life，it's a enjoyment of aesthetics.

[jajdude]

Not everyone reads poetry, but everyone knows some. A lot is in the lyrics of well-written songs. Kind of surprising we never studied song lyrics in school, or maybe just one or two like "Suzanne" by Leonard Cohen, seeing how big they can be in our lives, though once in uni the prof brought in Tennyson's "The Lady of Shallot" sung by Loreena McKennitt, what a voice, which is on youtube by the way. More enjoyable that way and hearing a song makes it easier to remember words. Some have suggested some songwriters like Dylan or Paul Simon or whoever else has written some far out lyrics, could be studied, even as a course. It would probably be successful too. Maybe even heavy metal. Seems a lot of that music has good lyrics though you often can't hear them well in the songs.

[Jair]

No music with poetry. It destroys the medium.

[Paulclem]

No music with poetry. It destroys the medium.

It has been pointed out that poetry began with music and was originally sung. That's not the point I'm making though. We are all watching and reading screens. Why not extend the form of the poem using the capability of the computer?

Take an idea for a poem such as "Blue time" in which I'm trying to associate a colour quality, and associations of blue to the experience of time. (It's a poem I've been thinking about for a a few weeks now, but it hasn't coalesced into lines yet. it's still at the ideas stage).

The usual presentation would be lines - perhaps with a long metre using long vowels and soft consonants to conjure a scene from a beach by the sea, or maybe the view into the sky from the mountains, or the devolving blueness of a sunset, or some descriptions of blues music with its mournful recollections - or some compound of these ideas.

The next stanza could be about red time, with contrasting shorter vowels and harder consonants and shorter lines perhaps mimicking the rush of experiences/ pleasures. perhaps then I'd think up another colour/ time correllation, or return to the blue time idea.

There's plenty to go at for me there for pen and ink, but could the ideas be enhanced by digital manipulation? Perhaps the lines roving at an appropriate speed into a blue scene/ distance - perhaps a few bars of a blues like tune in the background - perhaps with narration by the poet and some appropriate photos/ scenes digitally merging to assist in the ideas. perhaps the poet could withdraw more from the imagery to a more philosophical presentation as it is supported by the images.

The idea for the poem is not off the top of my head - though the idea arose whilst i was thinking about this thread, but the digital manipulation is. I'm sure there are lots of ideas that could be applied. The words could even be projected onto a suitable scene in the real world as a kind of poem/ art installation. The digital world is your .... cookie? :D

[cacian]

There are things better left as they are, and poetry is one of them.
It reminds me of musical I don't have the foggest idea why poeple actually like them because for me you either sing to sing or talk to talk.
I don't register somebody talking at me singing their voice out it kills the whole art of listening and responding and the convesation is out of the window.
I don't do it in real life thank god for that so why do it to literature.
I mean there is a time to relax and read and reflect and a time for noise and raving.
Music and poetry is just another submusical. Too much noise is suggestive that it has something to hide fill a gap or something like that.

[Paulclem]

There are things better left as they are, and poetry is one of them.
It reminds me of musical I don't have the foggest idea why poeple actually like them because for me you either sing to sing or talk to talk.
I don't register somebody talking at me singing their voice out it kills the whole art of listening and responding and the convesation is out of the window.
I don't do it in real life thank god for that so why do it to literature.
I mean there is a time to relax and read and reflect and a time for noise and raving.
Music and poetry is just another submusical. Too much noise is suggestive that it has something to hide fill a gap or something like that.

But what about the fact that fewer people are reading poetry, but are reading screens?

The intention is to preserve the poetic art, but also perhaps extend it.

[cacian]

But what about the fact that fewer people are reading poetry, but are reading screens?
I don't understand what you mean by reading screens?


The intention is to preserve the poetic art, but also perhaps extend it.
I agree that poetry needs to be preserved but the worry about adding music to it is that you risk loosing the meaning of poetry and replacing it with songs.
Songs are after all derivative of peotry only with music.
Ithink of musicals and I think that they have taken over theatre because of the scale of their productions they go on forever taking over theatres.

[JCamilo]

There is no such thing as "Not to do" rule, much less considering the ammount of poems we have that are written to be followed by music (not talking about singing it as lyrics of musics, original poetry was oral, but this does not imply only musical, rather recitation).

And obviously, there is no problem of an artwork being transformed by another medium.

[Paulclem]

There is no such thing as "Not to do" rule, much less considering the ammount of poems we have that are written to be followed by music (not talking about singing it as lyrics of musics, original poetry was oral, but this does not imply only musical, rather recitation).

And obviously, there is no problem of an artwork being transformed by another medium.

I agree. It could allow for suitable experimentation.

[Paulclem]

I don't understand what you mean by reading screens?


I agree that poetry needs to be preserved but the worry about adding music to it is that you risk loosing the meaning of poetry and replacing it with songs.
Songs are after all derivative of peotry only with music.
Ithink of musicals and I think that they have taken over theatre because of the scale of their productions they go on forever taking over theatres.

Computer, laptop, ipad, mobile screens.

I'm talking about the language and how to encourage the meaning of it, not about making poetry into songs. That's already been done.

[JCamilo]

and if the new "Poetry" form does not have the verse-stanza-poem (hardly either something new), so be it. A failure that is a success.

[stlukesguild]

I have seen any number of attempts at taking poetry... and literature in general... into the digital age. Obviously, with the capabilities of today's computers there is the possibility of merging the written text with graphics, images, music, sound, animation, and so much more. I have seen any number of these... including the non-linear narratives that evolve according to the response of the audience (not unlike a video game). I see nothing wrong with such developments... and yet at the same time, I doubt these shall replace traditional written poetry any more than theater, opera, or film replaced written drama/narratives.

[stlukesguild]

There are things better left as they are, and poetry is one of them.

The anti-classicist speaks like a true reactionary.:arf:

It reminds me of musical I don't have the foggest idea why poeple actually like them because for me you either sing to sing or talk to talk.
I don't register somebody talking at me singing their voice out it kills the whole art of listening and responding and the convesation is out of the window.
I don't do it in real life thank god for that so why do it to literature.

You do grasp the notion, do you not, that art is not "reality"? Musical theater has been around for ages and will quite likely continue regardless of whether you like it or not. Indeed, it seems we'd be rather much poorer with regards to the arts if you had your way.:shocked:

[cacian]

There are things better left as they are, and poetry is one of them.

The anti-classicist speaks like a true reactionary.:arf:

It reminds me of musical I don't have the foggest idea why poeple actually like them because for me you either sing to sing or talk to talk.
I don't register somebody talking at me singing their voice out it kills the whole art of listening and responding and the convesation is out of the window.
I don't do it in real life thank god for that so why do it to literature.

You do grasp the notion, do you not, that art is not "reality"? Musical theater has been around for ages and will quite likely continue regardless of whether you like it or not. Indeed, it seems we'd be rather much poorer with regards to the arts if you had your way.:shocked:
LOL
that is sooooooo not fair..I have a taste you know and it deos not have to fit the trend...LOL the whole point of vive la difference is that one of us is different and I happen to not like musicals and certain classics..oh well:leaving::biggrin5:

[Paulclem]

I have seen any number of attempts at taking poetry... and literature in general... into the digital age. Obviously, with the capabilities of today's computers there is the possibility of merging the written text with graphics, images, music, sound, animation, and so much more. I have seen any number of these... including the non-linear narratives that evolve according to the response of the audience (not unlike a video game). I see nothing wrong with such developments... and yet at the same time, I doubt these shall replace traditional written poetry any more than theater, opera, or film replaced written drama/narratives.

I wonder if it might manifest in poetic artistic installations - words projected onto a beach or a building. The "event " could then be preserved in video or whatever.

I am of course talking out of my comfort zone - just speculating.

[JCamilo]

I have seen any number of attempts at taking poetry... and literature in general... into the digital age. Obviously, with the capabilities of today's computers there is the possibility of merging the written text with graphics, images, music, sound, animation, and so much more. I have seen any number of these... including the non-linear narratives that evolve according to the response of the audience (not unlike a video game). I see nothing wrong with such developments... and yet at the same time, I doubt these shall replace traditional written poetry any more than theater, opera, or film replaced written drama/narratives.

More because the word "replacement" suggests that those who already like traditional poetry will replace it by new forms or even, that will replace the other in history...

In art, all deaths are exagerated, the world of eletronic guitar didn't replaced classical music, Picasso didnt replaced Da Vinci, etc. It is a romantic failure (and maybe, our failure to understand romantics) to think it is possible. It is all fine. Things must be this way, sometimes an art style needs only 1 artist and one consumer.