Chomsky: America in Decline

[Patrick_Bateman]

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20120214.htm

Discuss...

[cafolini]

I coulld discuss and refute each of the points made in the article. My problem really is that I have better things to do with my time. The article is so equivocal that it carries no real consequence. Good publishing, however.

[Emil Miller]

Very prescient considering this quote from another thread:

And so do not think of this as a dark oak room full of super serious men in top hats and tail coats. Rather think of this forum as a nice golden farm, full of hillbillies playing songs and discussing Noam Chomsky.


So, setting aside my banjo and lighting up my corncob pipe. I would say that Chomsky's geopolitical stance is well known and it underlines the fact that American inexperience was at the root of its inability to take over from where the British and other European empires left off. Further comment specifying how this lack of experience has brought the world to its present position would be likely to get the thread closed, but much of what Chomsky says points in the right direction even if, as he says, the article is not exhaustive.

[YesNo]

I didn't know Chomsky was still alive, but I had no reason to have thought otherwise.

Anyway, I agree with this from the article:


only the weak and defeated are called to account for their crimes

[Darcy88]

Too political to discuss. Chomsky is the man. We lost Howard Zinn and once Chomsky is gone I don't know who will be the top intellectual standard bearers of the left. Tariq Ali is all right. I love Chris Hedges but he's no scholar. Naomi Klein seems to be missing in action.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yes I like Chomsky he cuts right to the heart of the matter. He speaks well too. Not sure how much, if any, of it can be discussed though. (I'm feeling too ill anyway as my infection has come back again, one small cut = six weeks of illness and counting...) I also can't work out if I would rather be sat with super serious people in top hats or with hillbillies on a farm?

[Emil Miller]

Yes I like Chomsky he cuts right to the heart of the matter. He speaks well too. Not sure how much, if any, of it can be discussed though. (I'm feeling too ill anyway as my infection has come back again, one small cut = six weeks of illness and counting...) I also can't work out if I would rather be sat with super serious people in top hats or with hillbillies on a farm?

I'm sure you will agree with the reference to alcoholic refreshment in the first part of the hillbilly quote as mentioned below.

We don't take our discussions seriously, for the most part it is all lighthearted banter. So, unbutton the top two buttons of your shirt, throw away the whiskey on the rocks, and replace it with a beer. Lean back and light up a cigarette.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I'm sure you will agree with the reference to alcoholic refreshment in the first part of the hillbilly quote as mentioned below.

We don't take our discussions seriously, for the most part it is all lighthearted banter. So, unbutton the top two buttons of your shirt, throw away the whiskey on the rocks, and replace it with a beer. Lean back and light up a cigarette.

:lol:

At the moment though it is more like take a hot bath, drink some hot lemon or green tea and feel sorry for myself!

[Darcy88]

You guys think you're so much superior because you don't get plastered off homemade moonshine and make sweet love to your cousin in the light of the full moon in the back of a rusty ford pickup. Well you ain't no better! :cuss:

[Emil Miller]

You guys think you're so much superior because you don't get plastered off homemade moonshine and make sweet love to your cousin in the light of the full moon in the back of a rusty ford pickup. Well you ain't no better! :cuss:

A rusty ford pickup? I say, steady on. There are limits you know.

[Varenne Rodin]

Wow. That article is all over the place. I think America is improving in various areas. War is expensive, even crippling. Our economy is slowly on the rise, and I can only expect that will positively effect the global economy. We've burned some bridges with foreign nations and others are now bitter and untrusting toward us. That bitterness is justified, but we usually bounce back. We'll have a series of unliked presidents followed by some charismatic fellow who will smooth things over with genius foreign policy. We're not just going to constantly make war.

The environment is a different situation. We'll push it to the point of devastation. We'll rape the land of its resources until it runs out and we're living on a wasteland. THEN we'll cry like babies and commit to solar and other clean energies on a much larger scale. We'll probably put bans on petrol mining and etc. It might be like slapping a bandaid on a corpse, but the earth will eventually recover or humans will live altered lives in domes or underground. These are wild guesses, of course, but I'll be long dead when any of it happens.

Some of the other issues in the article are red herrings. I don't know why anyone thinks we don't remember and lament the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I also fail to see what that has to do with the current global climate and our potential decline.

It's extremely difficult (impossible?) to prevent any and all genocide worldwide. I don't think that burden lies with the United States alone. At times under the guise of preventing it, we perpetuated it. We're guilty. We're not always going to be saviors or philanthropists and I don't think anyone would accuse America of operating under a pacifist structure.

People loathe our current corporate run government, our almost totally republican administration, yet somehow socialism is the big bad evil to be afraid of. It's one or the other, folks. Government by and for people (socialism), or government by and for corporatists at the expense of many and for the sake of leading consumers. Freedom on a scale that allows for corruption and restriction of rights for any classes below the elite, or restricted freedom for everyone for the sake of everyone. I'm not saying either choice is good, but everyone seems to hate both options. What is it that the world at large would like for our country to do?

I had a hard time responding to that disjointed bit of free roaming text. Pardon me for my fragmented resulting argument. Right now, quality of life here is still excellent. If we don't completely p*ss away our education system, we'll be fine. No worries.

[Darcy88]

People loathe our current corporate run government, our almost totally republican administration, yet somehow socialism is the big bad evil to be afraid of. It's one or the other, folks. Government by and for people (socialism), or government by and for corporatists at the expense of many and for the sake of leading consumers. Freedom on a scale that allows for corruption and restriction of rights for any classes below the elite, or restricted freedom for everyone for the sake of everyone. I'm not saying either choice is good, but everyone seems to hate both options. What is it that the world at large would like for our country to do?


Couldn't have said it any better myself. I had no idea you were so politically aware. Really, that whole post is marvellously astute and incisive.

[Varenne Rodin]

I tried to keep that non-political. ~_~

[Varenne Rodin]

Couldn't have said it any better myself. I had no idea you were so politically aware. Really, that whole post is marvellously astute and incisive.

Aw. Thanks, Darcy. You're going to make me blush. I generally put on an air of silly-headed girlishness because it's simple and fun, but I privately read up on the history and currents of serious matters as well. :)

[Charles Darnay]

Aw. Thanks, Darcy. You're going to make me blush. I generally put on an air of silly-headed girlishness because it's simple and fun, but I privately read up on the history and currents of serious matters as well. :)

A fine policy. When you strike, no one will have cause to suspect you :)

[Varenne Rodin]

A fine policy. When you strike, no one will have cause to suspect you :)

Ha. Quite right. You have figured me out, Charles Darnay.

[Darcy88]

A rusty ford pickup? I say, steady on. There are limits you know.

I thought I was only kidding, but it turns out I come from good genuine hillbilly stock. My mother was just reminiscing to me over the phone of early married life with my father. She said "we used to get a big fire going in the back yard, drink beer and fire off your dad's guns. Sometimes we'd shoot rabbits and cook them over the fire for dinner. Go to the race-track Saturday nights. Then your dad got busted for growing pot and went to jail when I was eight months pregnant with your brother."

Yeehaw!

[Buh4Bee]

It's the life! The bigger the fire- the better tasting the beer. Instead of a rusty Ford pickup, some prefer a woodshed.

[Emil Miller]

I thought I was only kidding, but it turns out I come from good genuine hillbilly stock. My mother was just reminiscing to me over the phone of early married life with my father. She said "we used to get a big fire going in the back yard, drink beer and fire off your dad's guns. Sometimes we'd shoot rabbits and cook them over the fire for dinner. Go to the race-track Saturday nights. Then your dad got busted for growing pot and went to jail when I was eight months pregnant with your brother."

Yeehaw!

It's enough to make Alexander 111 choke on his pâté de foie gras.

[YesNo]

The rusty Ford pickup does bring back fond memories.

[Delta40]

I thought I was only kidding, but it turns out I come from good genuine hillbilly stock. My mother was just reminiscing to me over the phone of early married life with my father. She said "we used to get a big fire going in the back yard, drink beer and fire off your dad's guns. Sometimes we'd shoot rabbits and cook them over the fire for dinner. Go to the race-track Saturday nights. Then your dad got busted for growing pot and went to jail when I was eight months pregnant with your brother."

Yeehaw!


lmao! Yeah and in Australia we're all sitting round a homemade bush barbie roasting koalas and kangaroos, rooting whatever family members are willing (or not so willing...) in the back of a holden ute.

Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi!

(you just made my day Darcy)

[Darcy88]

lmao! Yeah and in Australia we're all sitting round a homemade bush barbie roasting koalas and kangaroos, rooting whatever family members are willing (or not so willing...) in the back of a holden ute.

Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi!

(you just made my day Darcy)

I'm glad I made your day. As a Canadian I've always felt an affinity with Australians.

[Delta40]

I'm glad I made your day. As a Canadian I've always felt an affinity with Australians.

I'm flying to the Mother Country in two days so I might lose my hillbilly ways and start saying things like 'jolly good old chap' and when I return, maybe, just maybe I can civilize our people! :D

[Sancho]

Don't do it! We all like you guys just the way are.

Oddly enough my hillbilly neighbor and I just had a good ole beer-drink and bonfire last week. We went around our pastures and collected all the downed branches from a recent wind storm and loaded them into the bed of my pickup – sorry it’s a Toyota. Then we figured it’d be too much trouble to manually unload the truck, so I backed up the bonfire site, dropped the tailgate, revved the engine, popped the clutch, and voila the truck unloaded itself. Then we dumped about 5 gallons of gasoline on the pile and flicked a lit match into the whole shebang. You know, neither one of us will need to shave for a while.

[Emil Miller]

I'm flying to the Mother Country in two days and when I return, maybe, just maybe I can civilize our people! :D

:lol: No chance, that makes the labours of Hercules look like a part time job in a supermarket.

[Delta40]

:lol: No chance, that makes the labours of Hercules look like a part time job in a supermarket.

Don't we beat you guys at cricket sometimes? Aw **** but I guess the Aussie team is made up of Pommie bastard ancestors anyway :lol:

[Emil Miller]

Don't we beat you guys at cricket sometimes? Aw **** but I guess the Aussie team is made up of Pommie bastard ancestors anyway :lol:

Madame I haven't the faintest idea of what cricket is supposed to be about, but if it gives you pleasure to beat us, then I'm wholly in favour of it.

[Darcy88]

:lol: No chance, that makes the labours of Hercules look like a part time job in a supermarket.

Everyone knows it was the folk of spirit and intrepidity who immigrated overseas as opposed to the timorous and passive namby-pambies who were content to remain behind clinging to the Queen's apron strings.

Go ahead and sip your Pg Tips, I'll be shot gunning a can of Lucky Lager or inverting a bottle of Black Velvet Deluxe.

[Sancho]

everybody now:

I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay
I sleep all night and I work all day

[Delta40]

Well I'd love to hang around but Pa says I gotta go work in the fields to keep all mah cousins fed!

[Darcy88]

Your typical Englishman:

http://www.people-clipart.com/people_clipart_images/cartoon_polo_player_0521-1011-0114-4518_SMU.jpg

And your typical Canadian:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDCaWElYN4QmRb-BkrgC0NlBWVz-8ir5BKB-CnZlXlXKWw49XDPg

[Emil Miller]

Well I'd love to hang around but Pa says I gotta go work in the fields to keep all mah cousins fed!

Why take notice of Pa after the final words of the lumberjack song?

"I cut down trees, I wear high heels, Suspendies and a bra. I wish I'd been a girlie, Just like my dear pappa."

[Sancho]

I could do Monty Python Tunes all night.

Okay I'll kick in the typical American:

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/fatcat.jpg

[Buh4Bee]

And the women folk protected!

[Darcy88]

Britain:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNptTKLxoerS5mrgtIHRHAb2sFdyOKv e_68e31kBPki2SnFeTm

Canada:

http://thedirty.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/DIRTY_phpxLouM6.jpg

Britain:

http://politicallandscaping.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/fox-hunting-pic-pa-161062217.jpg

Canada:

http://ncasafaris.com/images/grizzlybear3_full.jpg

[Sancho]

good one!

Always look on the bright side of life
whistle - whistle - whistle
Life's a piece of **** when you think of it

[Emil Miller]

And the women folk protected!

From what?

[Sancho]

Hillbillies, no doubt.

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/StarSpangledBikini.jpg

Now let's see a Maple flag or Union Jack Bikini

[Darcy88]

Happy to oblige:

http://myinfobahn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/canadian-flag-bikini-03-215x300.jpg

http://tizona.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/canadian_bikini.jpg

Oh Canada!

[Sancho]

Don't'cha just dig the way we hijacked this "serious" thread into a jingoistic bikini thread?

[Darcy88]

Don't'cha just dig the way we hijacked this "serious" thread into a jingoistic bikini thread?

I know, ain't it glorious?

But I'm afraid the Brazilians may have our number:

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web03/2011/5/29/13/new-brazilian-beach-volleyball-bikini-revealed-2413-1306689983-7.jpg

[Sancho]

Yep.

Well, El Sancho is off to the Cantina.

Hasta Luego

[Darcy88]

Chomsky would approve.

[LitNetIsGreat]

OK, if those are photos of hillbillies I'll opt for the hillbillies please.

[Sancho]

Here’s a bona fide hillbilly:

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/rebelbikini.jpg

I live not too far from the Atlanta Motor Speedway, a hotbed of Hillbillyism. On race day, if you throw a rock in the stands, you’ve got about an 87% chance of hitting a woman wearing one of these rebel-flag bikinis. Although I can’t say I’ve ever seen a woman over there quite like the one in the picture.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

This may be the best thread ever. I'm packin' half a chubby here.


It's enough to make Alexander 111 choke on his pâté de foie gras.
:smilielol5: That literally made me laugh out loud.

I thought I was only kidding, but it turns out I come from good genuine hillbilly stock. My mother was just reminiscing to me over the phone of early married life with my father. She said "we used to get a big fire going in the back yard, drink beer and fire off your dad's guns. Sometimes we'd shoot rabbits and cook them over the fire for dinner. Go to the race-track Saturday nights. Then your dad got busted for growing pot and went to jail when I was eight months pregnant with your brother."

Yeehaw!
You want to talk coming from hillbilly stock? You're messing with the midwest, now. My grandpa drank beer from a bucket that he passed around with his buddies. It was the 60s, so not that long ago. Plus, he had his 8 year old son buy it and for him. My dad would hunt squirrel and rabbit in his back yard at the age of nine. My granparents absolutely loooovvvved pigs snoots and pickled pigs' feet. I live next to a dirt racetrack that can be heard 20 miles around on clear Friday nights. Many of my friends have guns, and one has a gun safe in his room with several assault rifles (he isn't at all uncommon). A local station shows square dancing late at night. And that all comes bundled with heaps o' good ol' fashioned racism!

And if you're still not convinced, check this (http://www.riverfronttimes.com/slideshow/mardi-gras-2012-shenanigans-36170052/) out. And definitely don't click the "Earning Beads at Mardi Gras 2012 (NSFW)" link at the bottom right.

I could do Monty Python Tunes all night.

Okay I'll kick in the typical American:

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/mollyandbruno/fatcat.jpg
He needs a gun.

Britain:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNptTKLxoerS5mrgtIHRHAb2sFdyOKv e_68e31kBPki2SnFeTm

Canada:

http://thedirty.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/DIRTY_phpxLouM6.jpg

Britain:

http://politicallandscaping.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/fox-hunting-pic-pa-161062217.jpg

Canada:

http://ncasafaris.com/images/grizzlybear3_full.jpg

Canada any day. And I'm going to check out thedirty.com.

[Basil]

I live not too far from the Atlanta Motor Speedway...
For some reason, I had you pegged as living north of the city, Sancho. Don't tell me you live in Peachtree City.

Tomorrow, I'll be meeting the lovely Idril at Hartsfield for a whirlwind tour of our beloved home state. Are there any rattlesnake round-ups going on that you're aware of?

[Sancho]

For some reason, I had you pegged as living north of the city, Sancho. Don't tell me you live in Peachtree City.

Tomorrow, I'll be meeting the lovely Idril at Hartsfield for a whirlwind tour of our beloved home state. Are there any rattlesnake round-ups going on that you're aware of?

Basil, my old friend - just the usual Gun, Knife, and Illegal Explosives Show in Macon. And for some reason, I had you pegged up in Druid Hills, doing post-doc work at Emory. At any rate, it looks like it’s gonna be a pretty day for your visit.

Nope, I’m not in PTC, but I’m in the same county, an unincorporated part of Fayette County near the town of Brooks. In my area we have tractors rather than golf carts. I’ll explain that for anybody lucky enough not to be familiar with Peachtree City, Georgia:

Peachtree City is a strange and wonderful place, also a savage and evil one. It was planned in the 50s (I think) as a series of interlinked villages with plenty of golf courses, lakes, parks, and such. Somewhere along the line, somebody had the brilliant idea of building golf-cart paths along the sewer lines and the idea exploded into a network of over 100 miles of cart paths. The people there don’t drive cars, they ride golf carts. The Senior’s parking lot at McIntosh High School is a sea of golf carts, which had me gasping for air the first time I saw it I was laughing so hard.

You can get good sushi in Peachtree City because the place is loaded with affluent Japanese. HWY 74 south of town is lined with hi-tech Japanese companies. You can also get a nice bouquet of flowers, or an iced chai latte, or a bunch of smelly soaps and candles because the place has a frightening number of boutique-style shops. You see, in addition to the Japanese, PTC is stinking with Delta Pilots and their Exes. The Ex takes half the lump-sum in the divorce settlement and opens a Yarn Shop or something. It’s like a weird, more sinister version of the Stepford Wives, only with a southern accent.

I do some distance running and I like to go over there and run the cart paths from time to time – the paths are shady and they have plenty of drinking fountains, but watch out for the Stepford Wives. Last year I was nearly killed by a middle-aged woman wearing a tennis outfit and riding a souped-up golf cart. She had hate in her eye and smooth Kentucky Bourbon on her breath. On the lighter side, sometimes in the summer I’ll go over there late at night and run with a headlamp – it’s the only comfortable time of the day to run during the hot, sticky Georgia summer. Anyway, running behind the houses at midnight (remember the cart paths follow the sewer lines) you get to see some unusual things. One night a couple of years ago, I witnessed what can only be described as a “Jump Naked” party.

I’m not too sure what all this has to do with the Chomsky essay, but it does seem to speak to the decline of the American experiment.

[Bluehound]

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2012/02/02/article-1328184473142-118FA839000005DC-282276_466x310.jpg


We don't have any Hillbillys to wear our flag, will this bunch of models and Geri Halliwell do ?

[Patrick_Bateman]

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2012/02/02/article-1328184473142-118FA839000005DC-282276_466x310.jpg


We don't have any Hillbillys to wear our flag, will this bunch of models and Geri Halliwell do ?

My God she is ugly

[tonywalt]

Every few decades we go thru an "America in decline" fit. In the last century it was the 1930's, 1970's, and now again. The progressive media, strangely, promotes it, although they have to walk a certain line in terms of laying blame. They have spawned a hundered or so books on this topic. I have not yet finished the "Boom" books of the 1990's and early 2000's.

It's essentially a laissez faire economy that will have recessions, some severe, some not severe and also depressions, some severe, some not so severe. Up and down, depending on when the spap shot is taken, but trending up in the long term. Below inventions.

1.Flight. The Wright Brothers’ 12-second flight in 1903 ushered the world into the age of aviation.
2.Nuclear Energy. The Manhattan project left a dubious legacy, perhaps, but achieved a critical scientific feat nonetheless.
3.Space Travel. The Apollo program captivated the world by making space travel a reality in 1969.
4.Laser technology. Scientists at the Hughes Research lab in California first demonstrated the laser, now used in CDs, DVDs, eye surgery, bar codes, etc.
5.The Internet. The ARPAnet connected computers at UCLA, Stanford, UC Santa Barbara, and the University of Utah in the late 1960s—and the rest is history.


6.Magnetic Resonance Imaging. The MRI can find disease without harming the patient.
7.Communications satellites. The Army launched the first such satellite in 1958, clearing the way for the thousands now orbiting Earth.
8.Transistors. A three-man American team won the 1956 Nobel prize for developing the transistor and shaping the electronic age.
9.Assembly line. Henry Ford’s method for mass production made manufactured goods more affordable.
10.Light bulb. Thomas Edison perfected the design for the light bulb, and so started a technological revolution that changed civilization itself.

But even more importantly they are so dominant in computer technology. Google, Facebook(whether we like it or not), software etc...it boggles the mind.

It is a country with an admirable history and a great future. All due respect to Chomsky and his certain brand of thinking, but many would probably listen to Warren Buffett on this topic - and they should.

[Darcy88]

Every few decades we go thru an "America in decline" fit. In the last century it was the 1930's, 1970's, and now again. The progressive media, strangely, promotes it, although they have to walk a certain line in terms of laying blame. They have spawned a hundered or so books on this topic. I have not yet finished the "Boom" books of the 1990's and early 2000's.

It's essentially a laissez faire economy that will have recessions, some severe, some not severe and also depressions, some severe, some not so severe. Up and down, depending on when the spap shot is taken, but trending up in the long term. Below inventions.

1.Flight. The Wright Brothers’ 12-second flight in 1903 ushered the world into the age of aviation.
2.Nuclear Energy. The Manhattan project left a dubious legacy, perhaps, but achieved a critical scientific feat nonetheless.
3.Space Travel. The Apollo program captivated the world by making space travel a reality in 1969.
4.Laser technology. Scientists at the Hughes Research lab in California first demonstrated the laser, now used in CDs, DVDs, eye surgery, bar codes, etc.
5.The Internet. The ARPAnet connected computers at UCLA, Stanford, UC Santa Barbara, and the University of Utah in the late 1960s—and the rest is history.


6.Magnetic Resonance Imaging. The MRI can find disease without harming the patient.
7.Communications satellites. The Army launched the first such satellite in 1958, clearing the way for the thousands now orbiting Earth.
8.Transistors. A three-man American team won the 1956 Nobel prize for developing the transistor and shaping the electronic age.
9.Assembly line. Henry Ford’s method for mass production made manufactured goods more affordable.
10.Light bulb. Thomas Edison perfected the design for the light bulb, and so started a technological revolution that changed civilization itself.

But even more importantly they are so dominant in computer technology. Google, Facebook(whether we like it or not), software etc...it boggles the mind.

It is a country with an admirable history and a great future. All due respect to Chomsky and his certain brand of thinking, but many would probably listen to Warren Buffett on this topic - and they should.

America's manufacturing sector is on its death-bed. Investments in education are falling dramatically and as a result the hot-bed of high-tech innovation will no doubt transfer east. Cyclical booms and busts do not account for the emerging state of affair in the U.S.A.

[stlukesguild]

America's manufacturing sector is on its death-bed. Investments in education are falling dramatically and as a result the hot-bed of high-tech innovation will no doubt transfer east. Cyclical booms and busts do not account for the emerging state of affair in the U.S.A.

As Tony suggested, I have heard these "doom and gloom" prophesies concerning the future of the US more than once in my life-time. The manufacturing sector in the US has been on it's death-bed since the 1970s for the simple reason that it is far cheaper to pay a Mexican $2.50 a day than and American $250 a day. In the late 1970s there were rumors that the oil-rich Arabs would soon own us. As we moved into the 1980s it was the Japanese. Now its the Chinese. Really? And how long will it take them to get their infrastructure and sewer systems caught up to 19th century standards? The current recession, in case you haven't noticed, is pretty much world-wide... the result of some incredibly bad banking oversights in the US and poor investments (in these same banks) in the rest of the world.

The reality is that the American dominance of the world economy as it existed immediately after WWII was simply unsustainable. It was based upon the fact that the US remained the only major economic superpower that had not suffered serious damage to its manufacturing base and infrastructure during the war. Part of what is happening now is a leveling out of wealth and resources... something that has been going on for a century or longer. The rest of the world beyond the borders of Britain, France, the US, Germany, and the other Western economic superpowers are no longer willing to live in abject poverty. China, Japan, Russia, India, Korea... and soon Brazil, Argentina, and Venezuela shall all be competing for a share of the pie.

Undoubtedly there are some issues that must be dealt with by the US. There are an increasing number of Americans who are dissatisfied with our lack of a universal health system, our limited social safety nets, our over-priced system of colleges and universities, our unequal... or rather our racist system of funding of public schools, etc... and undoubtedly these same individuals will increasingly question our grossly inflated military budget which siphons off money that might be spent increasing the quality of life. Undoubtedly we will also need to seriously look at certain "entitlements".... the provision of Welfare, food and housing subsidies without any return expected from the recipients... and without limitation. I doubt we can continue to afford generations on Welfare or in prison. We also need to seriously look at the increasing gap between the rich and the poor... and the rich and the middle class.

I doubt, barring unforeseen warfare, that the current social and economic turmoil spells some rapid downward spiral of the US. France, Germany, Britain, etc... all underwent a far greater period of turmoil and economic hardship following WWII and did not end up a nation of destitute beggars. Indeed, many would suggest that the standard of living across the population as a whole actually increased.

Question: Without the stability brought via the Pax Americana who is really going to foot the bill for military stability or play the role of world police? Are we willing to assign this role to the Chinese? How likely are the Russians, Indians, and Japanese to be comfortable with this?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

So we're past our prime. Who cares? How does it affect me that we may not be the global superpower? Over the past decades, even at our strongest, I don't think we've even been in the top ten nations on the list of highest quality-of-life. Maybe we'll finally stop fighting so many wars. I doubt it, though.

On a side note, Pat.Buchanan has released a book explaining how America's decline is a direct result of white Americans being on the decline, oppression of white men, the rise of foreign cultures, and the refusal of immigrants to "assimilate" themselves into our correct Chritian religion . . . so there's that.

[YesNo]

One thing I didn't catch in Chomky's article was how to measure the decline so we could verify whether we are actually declining or not. How does one chart the decline over time?

The main problem I had with the article was that I would have liked to have seen a few graphs confirming the points Chomsky was trying to make.

[Darcy88]

America's manufacturing sector is on its death-bed. Investments in education are falling dramatically and as a result the hot-bed of high-tech innovation will no doubt transfer east. Cyclical booms and busts do not account for the emerging state of affair in the U.S.A.

As Tony suggested, I have heard these "doom and gloom" prophesies concerning the future of the US more than once in my life-time. The manufacturing sector in the US has been on it's death-bed since the 1970s for the simple reason that it is far cheaper to pay a Mexican $2.50 a day than and American $250 a day. In the late 1970s there were rumors that the oil-rich Arabs would soon own us. As we moved into the 1980s it was the Japanese. Now its the Chinese. Really? And how long will it take them to get their infrastructure and sewer systems caught up to 19th century standards? The current recession, in case you haven't noticed, is pretty much world-wide... the result of some incredibly bad banking oversights in the US and poor investments (in these same banks) in the rest of the world.

The reality is that the American dominance of the world economy as it existed immediately after WWII was simply unsustainable. It was based upon the fact that the US remained the only major economic superpower that had not suffered serious damage to its manufacturing base and infrastructure during the war. Part of what is happening now is a leveling out of wealth and resources... something that has been going on for a century or longer. The rest of the world beyond the borders of Britain, France, the US, Germany, and the other Western economic superpowers are no longer willing to live in abject poverty. China, Japan, Russia, India, Korea... and soon Brazil, Argentina, and Venezuela shall all be competing for a share of the pie.

Undoubtedly there are some issues that must be dealt with by the US. There are an increasing number of Americans who are dissatisfied with our lack of a universal health system, our limited social safety nets, our over-priced system of colleges and universities, our unequal... or rather our racist system of funding of public schools, etc... and undoubtedly these same individuals will increasingly question our grossly inflated military budget which siphons off money that might be spent increasing the quality of life. Undoubtedly we will also need to seriously look at certain "entitlements".... the provision of Welfare, food and housing subsidies without any return expected from the recipients... and without limitation. I doubt we can continue to afford generations on Welfare or in prison. We also need to seriously look at the increasing gap between the rich and the poor... and the rich and the middle class.

I doubt, barring unforeseen warfare, that the current social and economic turmoil spells some rapid downward spiral of the US. France, Germany, Britain, etc... all underwent a far greater period of turmoil and economic hardship following WWII and did not end up a nation of destitute beggars. Indeed, many would suggest that the standard of living across the population as a whole actually increased.

Question: Without the stability brought via the Pax Americana who is really going to foot the bill for military stability or play the role of world police? Are we willing to assign this role to the Chinese? How likely are the Russians, Indians, and Japanese to be comfortable with this?

Its different this time. Look at Detroit. By 2013 manufacturing will account for a mere 10 percent of America's GDP, 2.5 times below what it was during America's economic heyday. Instead of actually making things America's economy now relies on services and debt. The jobs will come back but they'll only pay a fraction of what they once did. Tuition is skyrocketing. Your second paragraph kind of contradicts your first. You argue that people have been predicting America's relative weakening for years and then you state that it has come. And your government already took a serious look at certain entitlements. Clinton's welfare reform was a hatchet that cut deep.

As for your final question.... if America has been a cop its been a crooked cop. Ask nations around the world from Asia to South and Central America as well as the Middle East.

[Emil Miller]

I doubt, barring unforeseen warfare, that the current social and economic turmoil spells some rapid downward spiral of the US. France, Germany, Britain, etc... all underwent a far greater period of turmoil and economic hardship following WWII and did not end up a nation of destitute beggars.

The West Germans got it right, as did the French to a lesser degree, but Britain was practically bankrupt in 1976 and had to call in the IMF for a loan of almost £3billion.

[stlukesguild]

Its different this time. Look at Detroit.

At the same time, look at Dallas, Houston, Denver, or Seattle. Detroit placed all its eggs in one basket: the US auto industry. When that industry declined the city was devastated. Look now at Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh was once home to the 3 largest steel mills in the world... and then the demand for steel fell drastically... and yet Pittsburgh has fully recovered because it had politicians who made the tough choices... who refused to keep throwing good money after bad attempting to save the dying industry, but instead invested in new industries.

By 2013 manufacturing will account for a mere 10 percent of America's GDP, 2.5 times below what it was during America's economic heyday.

In case you somehow missed it, the industrial age has been over for decades. Manufacturers can employ cheap labor across the globe... workers willing to work for a fraction of what a Western worker demands with countries willing to turn a blind eye on expensive pollution control, worker safety, etc...

Instead of actually making things America's economy now relies on services and debt. The jobs will come back but they'll only pay a fraction of what they once did.

That's true of simple manufacturing jobs... the simple result of competition with cheap labor. The game has changed. During my father's youth one might drop out of school in the 6th or 8th grade, work a few years on a farm, walk into a factory and get hired (with good salary and benefits) the same day, tell the boss to go F*** himself, walk across the street to another factory and be hired there. That is no longer the truth. We are working in a technological and information-based society. The poor, uneducated worker who could once live off of his brawn must now compete at home with the female work force, the Black laborers, the Hispanics, etc... all those who were once shut out of competition. He also must compete with cheap foreign labor.

Tuition is skyrocketing. Your second paragraph kind of contradicts your first. You argue that people have been predicting America's relative weakening for years and then you state that it has come. And your government already took a serious look at certain entitlements. Clinton's welfare reform was a hatchet that cut deep.

What you are missing is that that the lessening of political/military/economic dominance can not be immediately equated with a decline in the standard of living. If we look at the late 19th century... the period during which the English and French controlled an unprecedented percentage of the wealth of the entire planet... the standard of living of the average Londoner or Parisian was almost certainly well beneath what it is today. The same holds true of the United States today. The standard of living of the average American immediately after WWII was surely far less than it is for the average American today. If we assume that there is a finite set wealth to be shared by all, then certainly as one nation's wealth increases, other's must decline. This is the belief of the hard-core conservatives who would have us all believe that the increased fortunes of the poor and the minorities, the influx of immigrants, etc... must surely spell the decline and eventual doom of "mainstream" white America. This is the belief that has fueled our current unequal system of public schools: the belief that if we offer equal and fair education to the poor and the minorities, it will come at a cost of the decline of the standard of living of the wealthy. But it doesn't work this way. Capitalism is not based upon the rich creating jobs, but upon supply and demand. When the masses have enough money, the demand for product increases and thus jobs increase as well as profits for the wealthy.

As for your final question.... if America has been a cop its been a crooked cop. Ask nations around the world from Asia to South and Central America as well as the Middle East.

Tell me what nation has done a better job? The Greeks? The Romans? The Persians? The Holy Roman Empire? The French? The British? What nation with such power hasn't employed its might in the service of the wealthy powers-that-be?

[Darcy88]

In case you somehow missed it, the industrial age has been over for decades. Manufacturers can employ cheap labor across the globe... workers willing to work for a fraction of what a Western worker demands with countries willing to turn a blind eye on expensive pollution control, worker safety, etc...

No, the industrial age is not over, not for the world at least, but for America yes. And that is the main concern. Americans no longer make stuff. Instead they go into debt to buy stuff made by the Chinese. Its a vampiric trend that will suck America dry and continue to transfer more economic power east.



What you are missing is that that the lessening of political/military/economic dominance can not be immediately equated with a decline in the standard of living.....

The standard of living is going down. Poverty statistics were recently released which show an increase in the number of impoverished. Add to that the fact that with less good jobs less people are receiving employer health insurance, the situation appears even worse.



When the masses have enough money, the demand for product increases and thus jobs increase as well as profits for the wealthy.

And that is precisely the problem at hand. A job at Wal-Mart or Home Depot pays less than a factory job and as a result people have less money to spend and the economy inevitably falters. They used to make everything in America, even clothes I tell you! That is unthinkable now. Tell me what would have happened were it not for free trade. A trade policy that encouraged domestic production and consumption would solve this entire problem, cheap foreign labour be damned.


Tell me what nation has done a better job? The Greeks? The Romans? The Persians? The Holy Roman Empire? The French? The British? What nation with such power hasn't employed its might in the service of the wealthy powers-that-be?

Having recently read Zinn's People's History of the United States after having it recommended to me by a history professor I think its ridiculous for anyone to further this notion of America somehow being the policeman of the world. You can find imperial motivations lurking behind every American military intervention or declaration of war. America's conduct has been no worse than that of Greece or Rome or Britain. But I would never characterize the imperial foreign policies of those other empires as being some sort of attempt to police.

[Emil Miller]

[QUOTE]On a side note, Pat.Buchanan has released a book explaining how America's decline is a direct result of white Americans being on the decline, oppression of white men, the rise of foreign cultures, and the refusal of immigrants to "assimilate" themselves into our correct Chritian religion . . . so there's that.

I have just been reading up on Buchanan's book and it confirms what I have already worked out for myself, so I won't be buying it. It's ironic though that a doyen of the left such as Chomsky and one of the right like Buchanan are in agreement that America is in decline.

[Alexander III]

A trade policy that encouraged domestic production and consumption would solve this entire problem, cheap foreign labour be damned.


Wait so you critisize America for being imperialistic and not giving a damn about anyone but themselves, and at the same time you want to take away the jobs which millions in Asia have become dependant on for sustanance. So your take is, "Help the poor of the world damn capitalist pigs opressing the worlds poor -, wait what, I can't afford two cars only one?!?!? **** the poor of the world, I want my second car!"

And no, If a western factories leave Asia, all the workers won't be all like yay we are no longer opressed, now we will work and earn 10 dollars a day instead of being american salves earning one dollar a day. Truth is they will be more like, time to sell my daughter and wifes bodies, because otherwise are are gonna die of starvation. Yippe freedom!

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

[QUOTE=Mutatis-Mutandi;1117457]




I have just been reading up on Buchanan's book and it confirms what I have already worked out for myself, so I won't be buying it. It's ironic though that a doyen of the left such as Chomsky and one of the right like Buchanan are in agreement that America is in decline.

I agree that what Buchanan is factually true--the idea of the strong, white, Christian family is starting to become an antiquated notion, and other cultures (even other languages, on no!) are coming more to the forefront. Where I STRONGLY disagree is his claim that this is the reason America is in decline. I think that's complete BS. If anyone is to blame, it's the strong, Christian men who run our banks and government.

(not that the above is an economic statement and not a political one, and from what I've seen, that's perfectly acceptable)

[Darcy88]

Wait so you critisize America for being imperialistic and not giving a damn about anyone but themselves, and at the same time you want to take away the jobs which millions in Asia have become dependant on for sustanance. So your take is, "Help the poor of the world damn capitalist pigs opressing the worlds poor -, wait what, I can't afford two cars only one?!?!? **** the poor of the world, I want my second car!"

And no, If a western factories leave Asia, all the workers won't be all like yay we are no longer opressed, now we will work and earn 10 dollars a day instead of being american salves earning one dollar a day. Truth is they will be more like, time to sell my daughter and wifes bodies, because otherwise are are gonna die of starvation. Yippe freedom!

When the heck did I criticize America for being imperialistic? I'm sure I have somewhere, but not in this thread. I criticized the notion of America being the world's police-force. What some consider policing I consider imperialism. Do you disagree?

Those poor Chinese can go back to their abandoned farms. Or the country as a whole could have an aha moment and boost wages in order to bring on a rise in domestic demand, something that is actually beginning to take place. What I am against is the consumer cannabalization going on among my neighbours to the south. They buy stuff from China, see their own jobs shipped overseas, then when they can no longer afford to buy the stuff because their new jobs suck they break out their credit cards and plunge themselves further into debt. I shouldn't even say "they." Canada is no different.

And yeah Alexander. That is what impoverished lower class people as a rule do. When times get tough they prostitute their wives and daughters. Happens all the time I hear.

But hey -why did I have to waste my time in writing this response? Your pattern is to grossly misinterpret or outright insult me and then duck like a preyed upon animal when I respond.

[JuniperWoolf]

So we're past our prime. Who cares? How does it affect me that we may not be the global superpower? Over the past decades, even at our strongest, I don't think we've even been in the top ten nations on the list of highest quality-of-life. Maybe we'll finally stop fighting so many wars. I doubt it, though.

It can only affect you positively from where I'm standing. Once everyone stops focusing on America so much and judging every global event from the viewpoint of "what is America doing about this?" then you can all finally relax.

[Emil Miller]

[QUOTE=Emil Miller;1117885]


[QUOTE]If anyone is to blame, it's the strong, Christian men who run our banks and government.

Replace the word 'strong' with 'weak', and you've got it in one.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Replace the word 'strong' with 'weak', and you've got in one.

Agreed--strong was meant ironically. I should've put it in quotes.

Wait a sec . . . did we just agree on something politics wise? Scary. . . .

[Sancho]

I have just been reading up on Buchanan's book and it confirms what I have already worked out for myself, so I won't be buying it. It's ironic though that a doyen of the left such as Chomsky and one of the right like Buchanan are in agreement that America is in decline.

You know, Emil, that’s not all that unusual over here. The nutty right and the kooky left have a long history of agreement on many issues – for instance, both sides agree that sodomizing a Congressional Page in a public restroom is a good thing.

[Darcy88]

You know, Emil, that’s not all that unusual over here. The nutty right and the kooky left have a long history of agreement on many issues – for instance, both sides agree that sodomizing a Congressional Page in a public restroom is a good thing.

Nice one Sancho. I actually laughed out loud.

[Sancho]

Hah, I've tried sober seriousness in my life, but it didn't take.

[Emil Miller]

You know, Emil, that’s not all that unusual over here. The nutty right and the kooky left have a long history of agreement on many issues – for instance, both sides agree that sodomizing a Congressional Page in a public restroom is a good thing.

Just as long as they don't frighten the horses.