Gender Transition

[Delta40]

What general viewpoints to lit-nutters have on partial gender transition? where a woman cross dresses and takes testosterone to assume the identity of a man but retains her reproductive organs because she/he wants to have a family at some stage?

I feel there is more hostility - a sort of 'you can't have your cake and it eat it too' attitude but I'm also curious whether lit-nutters general view might alter if it was a family member of theirs or wouldn't it make any difference?

[BienvenuJDC]

It really brings about major social issues. If the person needs to use a public restroom, which restroom should they use?

[Delta40]

Lol. That's a good question and I'm sure there's a heap more about living as a PGT but I suppose I'm looking for member's views on the issue itself and how it might affect them personally.

[Helga]

I just saw a movie called 'The Amazing Truth About Queen Raquela' it's a documentary about a ladyboy, it's by an icelandic filmmaker but it is in English and has been shown in many big festivals.

It shows a world most people don't know and about the restroom thing the three ladyboys in this movie they used the mens room and it's kinda funny watching three women pee standing up.

but on the original question I don't think I would care but I guess it's hard to know until your facing this in real life

[Buh4Bee]

Well, in twenty years from now, if my son came to me and said he wanted to dress like a woman, I think I'd be upset. I'd prefer for him to be outright gay than dressing like a woman. It seems like a very complicated process, but if someone I know feels right living this way I'd supportive.

[Darcy88]

I think if a man wants to have his penis surgically removed then he is most definitely mentally ill. We had a class discussion about this and my view-point was very unpopular. Then I saw a show in which a 12 year old tom-boy was going to start receiving testosterone treatments to give her male puberty. The doctor said the treatment would permanently prevent her from ever bearing children. I think that doctor should have his medical license taken from him.

I remember 15 years ago I had a neighbour who cut her hair short and wore only boy's clothes. It lasted for a few years, then she moved away. I saw her again this summer and she looked gorgeous and normal, with long hair and a girly outfit. I suppose in today's more "accepting" culture she might have been given testosterone and trapped forever in that tom-boy phase.

[OrphanPip]

What general viewpoints to lit-nutters have on partial gender transition? where a woman cross dresses and takes testosterone to assume the identity of a man but retains her reproductive organs because she/he wants to have a family at some stage?


It is more common that non-op transsexuals choose not to have the genital surgery because of the loss of sexual sensation and the potential health complications of it. Also, it is incredibly difficult to find doctors who will perform the surgery, and in places like the USA it often isn't financially possible for transsexuals to afford the surgery.


I think if a man wants to have his penis surgically removed then he is most definitely mentally ill. We had a class discussion about this and my view-point was very unpopular. Then I saw a show in which a 12 year old tom-boy was going to start receiving testosterone treatments to give her male puberty. The doctor said the treatment would permanently prevent her from ever bearing children. I think that doctor should have his medical license taken from him.

I remember 15 years ago I had a neighbour who cut her hair short and wore only boy's clothes. It lasted for a few years, then she moved away. I saw her again this summer and she looked gorgeous and normal, with long hair and a girly outfit. I suppose in today's more "accepting" culture she might have been given testosterone and trapped forever in that tom-boy phase.

Someone being a tom boy and being transgender are not the same thing. Also, I think you have a mistaken idea of how difficult it is for someone to undergo transition. It requires years in the system, going through psychiatrist, social workers, and doctors before someone can even get the permission to transition. I know for a fact that there is only one doctor in all of Montreal who will see patients for sex re-assignment. I don't know of anywhere in Canada where minors can transition. Not that it isn't standard medical practice to pump intersex individuals full of various sex hormones to make them conform anatomically to one or the other sex.

Medical treatment should be directed towards harm reduction, as well as acknowledge the right to self-determination of patients. Besides, a lot of transgender people were born intersex, neither anatomically male or female. Those that are born anatomically on one or other side of the binary do not necessarily have a brain that is gendered the same as their anatomy. The brain is gendered at a different stage of development from the genitals, making it completely in the realm of empirical possibility that a male or female body have a brain on either end of the masculine-feminine spectrum. People who identify as transsexual suffer more from being denied the right to transition, if they desire to do so, than they do in any way from transitioning.

I don't think you have taken the effort to treat these people as real human beings with rights of self-determination and complete emotional lives in their own right. Nor do you seem informed about the issues they face.

As to the bathroom problem, most transgenders hold it in when out in public because they do not feel safe in public washrooms. While some might pack so that they can pass at a urinal in a men's washroom, this would be uncommon outside of certain bars or clubs. The washroom is a very serious locus of anxiety for trans people because the potential of not passing when one is attempting to comes with the possibility of extreme violence at worst, or a moment of deep humiliation at best.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

If a man dressing in women's clothes makes him happy and feel fulfilled, or vice-versa, I say go for it. It's not hurting me any.

Same goes with actually changing genders. Like Pip said, some people are born with a make body but a female mind, or (again) vice-versa. I don't know a out you, but living like that would seem like hell, always feeling that there's something wrong with you, that your inner self doesn't coincide with your outer.


Well, in twenty years from now, if my son came to me and said he wanted to dress like a woman, I think I'd be upset. I'd prefer for him to be outright gay than dressing like a woman. It seems like a very complicated process, but if someone I know feels right living this way I'd supportive.
Being gay and dressing like a woman are two different things. Not all men who dress in women's clothes are gay, and not all gay men dress in women's clothing.


I don't think you have taken the effort to treat these people as real human beings with rights of self-determination and complete emotional lives in their own right. Nor do you seem informed about the issues they face.


Agreed. Transgender people just one day go, "Hey, I think I want to be a woman instead! That sounds like fun!" In a sense, they are mentally ill, but changing sexes is more often a cure for their problems than an exacerbation. Plus, as far as I know, the process of actually having your gender changed is a long process involving plenty of counseling to determine if it really will benefit the person in question.

[Darcy88]

I still think giving a 12 year old girl testosterone to induce male puberty and thereby prevent her from ever bearing children is a heinous crime. And forget about me not "taking the effort to treat these people as real human beings." I went to high school with this guy who was ultra-feminine and homosexual. He got taunted so bad he had to leave. A few years later he underwent gender reassignment surgery. Then one day I was on the bus and he was sitting a few seats back with his boyfriend. These three guys in their early 20s seated in the very back were taunting them and taunting them. Then one of them took his soft-drink and poured it on their heads. I went back, slammed the guy into the wall and grabbed him by the throat, then told him to get off at the next stop and never show his face on that bus route again. I must've looked wild crazy because I'm not a big guy and his friends just shut up and sat there.

The change is life-altering and irrevocable. No procreation - ever. I admit I know nothing about these so called differences in brain chemistry. I'll have to research that before I settle the matter in my own mind.

[OrphanPip]

That anecdote doesn't really address what I was saying though. You are using the wrong pronoun and implicitly rejecting the avowed gender identity of the person you defended. That's a problem, and it is very offensive to transgender people to describe them like that.

Also, have you consider that for a transgender boy about to go through puberty, the chance of missing out on the opportunity to have an expanded larynx and deepened voice and the development of expanded hips instead of broadened shoulder are equally irrevocable. Not to mention the trauma that it causes to transgender people to have to go through a process of having their body become increasingly differentiated from the gender they identify with. Puberty is life-altering even without hormonal intervention, all you are doing is privileging a heteronormative conformity.

Not that I think it is necessarily medically a good idea for a child to begin to transition at that age, I can understand from a transgender perspective why one would have reasonable reason to want to. My few transgender friends are no-op, or genderqueer, but those identities themselves come with issues of negotiating how society treats them and insists on defining how they should relate to their own bodies.

[Darcy88]

That anecdote doesn't really address what I was saying though. You are using the wrong pronoun and implicitly rejecting the avowed gender identity of the person you defended. That's a problem, and it is very offensive to transgender people to describe them like that.

Also, have you consider that for a transgender boy about to go through puberty, the chance of missing out on the opportunity to have an expanded larynx and deepened voice and the development of expanded hips instead of broadened shoulder are equally irrevocable. Not to mention the trauma that it causes to transgender people to have to go through a process of having their body become increasingly differentiated from the gender they identify with. Puberty is life-altering even without hormonal intervention, all you are doing is privileging a heteronormative conformity.

Not that I think it is necessarily medically a good idea for a child to begin to transition at that age, I can understand from a transgender perspective why one would have reasonable reason to want to. My few transgender friends are no-op, or genderqueer, but those identities themselves come with issues of negotiating how society treats them and insists on defining how they should relate to their own bodies.

I would have had to switch pronouns mid-sentence. How insensitive of me to risk my neck sticking up for a transgender, not knowing if those guys were violent or what, and then fail to change pronouns here.


all you are doing is privileging a heteronormative conformity.

Good word that, "heteronormative." Never heard it before. And I see that I fit its definition to a t. Yes, I felt very heteronormative while I was fooling around with a guy two nights ago, very heteronormative indeed.

[BienvenuJDC]

I find the whole thing entirely offensive, and that is all that I will say about it.

[OrphanPip]

I would have had to switch pronouns mid-sentence. How insensitive of me to risk my neck sticking up for a transgender, not knowing if those guys were violent or what, and then fail to change pronouns here.

Well that's a nice way to dodge what I was saying. The point obviously has nothing to do with the instance in question, since the instance itself and the post detailing it in this thread are separate events. Your protecting a transgender person doesn't preclude you from having problematic attitudes towards transgender people. Especially when your post previous to that one explicitly called them mentally ill.



Good word that, "heteronormative." Never heard it before. And I see that I fit its definition to a t. Yes, I felt very heteronormative while I was fooling around with a guy two nights ago, very heteronormative indeed.

Again, that is irrelevant, your post displayed a heteronormative privileging of conventional gender values in opposition to the potential that for some people some things other than reproduction might be more important. I'm never going to reproduce, why should I think reproduction is so much more important than someone having a body that they feel they need to be happy?

[Darcy88]

Cutting off your genitalia is simply unnatural. Maybe its right for some people like you say, but its still unnatural.

"Heteronormative privileging of conventional gender values" has nothing to do with it. Gays and lesbians and bisexuals often have children. Having children is not a purely "heteronormative" thing. And I honestly don't see how a bisexual can be charged with being heteronormative. I don't think its wrong for people not to have children, I rather think its wrong for young people to have that possibility forever taken from them. People change. The brain changes. Who knows what that 12 year old girl I mentioned might have thought or felt or wanted by her 30th birthday.

You say there are matters of brain development involved and I admit I have to research that and perhaps then I may revise my opinion.

[OrphanPip]

I don't particularly care what is natural, you might as well say people shouldn't get blood transfusions or organ transplants because it is unnatural.

Heteronormative values have everything to do with it. Assuming that there is a natural relationship between sex and gender identity is a heteronormative assumption, and privileging the reproductive paradigm is another aspect of heteronormativity. Like I said, forcing a FtM boy to undergo puberty when he wants to transition results in irreversible changes that he does not want to have happen to him. Why is the potential to reproduce more important than any of the concerns a trans person might privilege instead?

People change is not a good enough answer, that logic can justify oppression of any kind on the grounds that a person could change their desires or identity. And even if people change why does that justify the removal of an individual's choice simply on the grounds of it causing infertility?

[Darcy88]

Its natural to have a certain amount of blood circulating. Its natural to have healthy functioning organs. Its not natural to surgically remove one's genitalia.

I again take issue with your claim that parenthood is heteronormative. Bisexuals and gays breed, obviously not to the same extent as straight people but they do.

Forget about the whole reproduction aspect. Consider merely the gender ramifications. The procedure is irreparable. I don't see why it should ever be done before the age of 25, since that's when the brain is fully developed.

Plenty of people dress as members of the opposite sex, have altered voices, personalities which match their expressed genders, and often can easily pass for women. How is uncorrectable surgery a preferable option to that?

I don't even think they should be prevented from doing it if it is their genuine desire and all psychiatric hurdles have been passed. I won't force my own view-point on others and I treat them as I would treat any person I should happen to meet.

The two single issues on which my stance is not hard left surface on the same day. Awesome. I've walked a mile in a conservative's shoes.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Hey, it's shortsighted to adhere to one ideology simply for the sake of it. I have some conservative leanings, too.


I find the whole thing entirely offensive, and that is all that I will say about it.

After debating on whether or not I should open this can of worms . . . Well, **** it.

Bien, what do you find offensive, and why?

[Delta40]

Guys I appreciate the comments made so far but I wasn't referring to getting genitals cut off and I'm not talking about teenagers although they may have always known they were in the 'wrong' body.

I did say partial gender transition - retaining reproductive organs while assuming a male identity which doesn't just involve cross dressing but also a course of testosterone. This also doesn't mean these women to male enter into a relationship with a woman btw and I also know that with some help female to males can bear children.

I have a reason for this post and would really appreciate some focused input.

[Darcy88]

Without the surgery the process and life-style clashes far less with my sentiments. I'm sure such a person would face much misunderstanding and discrimination and might find life somewhat easier in a big city.

I want to reiterate that I believe people should be free to do as they like, my own personal objections should apply to no one else.

[JuniperWoolf]

As usual, I don't give a **** about what people do to themselves. I have only one transgender friend (Shane), he still likes boys and girls just like he always has, he just likes dressing like a woman and takes pills so that he can wear the clothes better (and he does look more girly since he started taking the pills). When we were kids he dressed like a boy and didn't seem very happy with it. As long as he stays funny and cool, I don't care what he wears or chops off (although he's already told me that he would never go that far - apparently you lose almost all feeling, which he says would kind of defeat the purpose of having sex organs).


Also, have you consider that for a transgender boy about to go through puberty, the chance of missing out on the opportunity to have an expanded larynx and deepened voice and the development of expanded hips instead of broadened shoulder are equally irrevocable. Not to mention the trauma that it causes to transgender people to have to go through a process of having their body become increasingly differentiated from the gender they identify with. Puberty is life-altering even without hormonal intervention, all you are doing is privileging a heteronormative conformity.

Good point, I've never thought of that.


The two single issues on which my stance is not hard left surface on the same day. Awesome. I've walked a mile in a conservative's shoes.

Haha, my military and gun-control views are considered conservative by most people on the left, I'm dreading the day.

[JBI]

I am in full support of what anybody wishes to do to themselves. However, I do not want any of it paid for by me, the same way I do not need to be paying for breast implants, or penis enlargements.

If people want to identify in any way with any other gender, or partially, or whatever, I give them my blessing, let them be happy with it, and I hope doctors see the business opportunity to make a living off of it.

However, if you expect me to pay for it, well, that's a different story.

[Bluehound]

I have a friend who is in the middle of transitioning now. He has had a few rough years but now he is getting his testosterone shots and has the prospect of top surgery in sight he is alot happier.
I dont know what his plans are for the bottom half, so in theory in a few years time he could be telling me he is pregnant, but I would be flabigasted to be honest.
Its been a long battle to get to where he is and it would mean going back the way he has come.
So I am not suprised that not many trans men have babies, it would mean stopping the male hormones and going onto female ones , I expect. Plus after passing for a few years, it leaves them open to the ignarance and cruelty of the general public (which never fails to stagger me) once more.
But having said all that, if he did decide to have a baby I would be made up for him and know that it was something he had really thought long and hard about, not like a lot of folk who just get pregnant by accident or do it "cos thats what you do".

[OrphanPip]

I am in full support of what anybody wishes to do to themselves. However, I do not want any of it paid for by me, the same way I do not need to be paying for breast implants, or penis enlargements.

If people want to identify in any way with any other gender, or partially, or whatever, I give them my blessing, let them be happy with it, and I hope doctors see the business opportunity to make a living off of it.

However, if you expect me to pay for it, well, that's a different story.

Why shouldn't it be covered?

What about people who were born intersex and had their pseudopenis altered into a vagina without their consent when they were a child. They should have a right to equal access to medical reconstruction of their genitals no matter their economic circumstances. Our medical system covers reconstruction of genitals, or really any part of the body, in cases of accidental injury. It covers normalizing surgeries to intersex genitalia as well. Why should a procedure, if deemed in consultation with a psychiatrist, as vital to an individual's psychological well being only be available to the rich?

These condescending and misinformed attitudes towards transsexuals are bigoted. Can you not recognize how backhandedly condoning the economic exploitation of someone while simultaneously undermining the sincerity of their gender identity (by comparing it to cosmetic enhancements) is not giving your blessing.


Guys I appreciate the comments made so far but I wasn't referring to getting genitals cut off and I'm not talking about teenagers although they may have always known they were in the 'wrong' body.

I did say partial gender transition - retaining reproductive organs while assuming a male identity which doesn't just involve cross dressing but also a course of testosterone. This also doesn't mean these women to male enter into a relationship with a woman btw and I also know that with some help female to males can bear children.

I have a reason for this post and would really appreciate some focused input.

I gave a short response to this in my initial post. But these issues require a nuanced approach.

For one, a transgender person who does transition might not identify as male or female, they might identify as genderqueer. Thus, their genitals might have nothing to do with how they conceive of their gender identity.

More importantly you need to consider the social and practical limitations. They'd have to sacrifice sexual sensation and undergo the minor risk of the surgery. They have to consider whether changing their genitals will cause a partner to leave them. Transitioning might change the legal rights they have in certain states, such that a transgender person who has not had sex reassignment surgery may be able to marry their partner only under the condition that they do not transition. They might have financial limitations, the surgery is expensive, and so they simply can't afford to transition despite wanting to. They might not have access to the medical care where they live; access to medical professionals that handle transitioning is rare, for most people it requires travelling miles to a major city to get the procedure, and they might even be denied the right to get the procedure by the powers that be. They might not even be able to get the prescription for hormones and be buying them illegally.

Not to forget the social stigma against the surgery itself, just look to this itself for the reason why someone might fear getting the surgery.

[Taliesin]

I am in full support of what anybody wishes to do to themselves. However, I do not want any of it paid for by me, the same way I do not need to be paying for breast implants, or penis enlargements.

If people want to identify in any way with any other gender, or partially, or whatever, I give them my blessing, let them be happy with it, and I hope doctors see the business opportunity to make a living off of it.

However, if you expect me to pay for it, well, that's a different story.

JBI - I think that declaring trans issues to be on par with penis enlargements and breast implants is unfair - one of them has to do with one's gender identity on a very personal level and the other is, well, a rather superficial thing. The question who should pay for it is a separate issue, but comparing gender transition operation with penis enlargement is, frankly, offensive.

[JuniperWoolf]

I am in full support of what anybody wishes to do to themselves. However, I do not want any of it paid for by me, the same way I do not need to be paying for breast implants, or penis enlargements.

If people want to identify in any way with any other gender, or partially, or whatever, I give them my blessing, let them be happy with it, and I hope doctors see the business opportunity to make a living off of it.

However, if you expect me to pay for it, well, that's a different story.

That's also a good point. I don't think I'd want the government to use my tax money to fund gender surgery either. After all, if it isn't funded by the government, couldn't you make the argument that the people seeking gender surgery obviously put a lot of thought into getting it done by using this fact as a strong example? I mean, if you're going to spend what, $50000ish (I have no idea how much this would cost) on something, then everyone who is aware of that fact is going to immediately come to the conclusion that this definately wasn't a spur-of-the-moment, maybe-he'll-change-his-mind kind of decision.

Also, Taliesin makes a good point too, they're not the same thing.

[OrphanPip]

That's also a good point. I don't think I'd want the government to use my tax money to fund gender surgery either. After all, if it isn't funded by the government, couldn't you make the argument that the people seeking gender surgery obviously put a lot of thought into getting it done by using this fact as a strong example? I mean, if you're going to spend what, $50000ish (I have no idea how much this would cost) on something, then everyone who is aware of that fact is going to immediately come to the conclusion that this definately wasn't a spur-of-the-moment, maybe-he'll-change-his-mind kind of decision.

Also, Taliesin makes a good point too, they're not the same thing.

But you can't just walk into a doctor's office and demand sex reassignment surgery (you can't do that with any kind of surgery covered by Medicare). You have to go through years of doctor appointments, isn't that enough? These surgeries are empirically demonstrated to decreased psychiatric morbidity, they alleviate problems of depression and suicide which would cost the medical system money anyway.

And in Canada we should acknowledge that access to medical procedure should not be limited by economic status. Transsexuals face enough issues with accessibility by the very fact that it is incredibly difficult to find a doctor to deal with in the first place.

[BienvenuJDC]

After debating on whether or not I should open this can of worms . . . Well, **** it.

Bien, what do you find offensive, and why?

We can do without that argument.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

We can do without that argument.

Agreed.

[BienvenuJDC]

Agreed.

However, I think that we both can agree that women are quite desirable as they are. Let's not mess with perfection.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

However, I think that we both can agree that women are quite desirable as they are. Let's not mess with perfection.

Agreed again.

[Delta40]

But you can't just walk into a doctor's office and demand sex reassignment surgery (you can't do that with any kind of surgery covered by Medicare). You have to go through years of doctor appointments, isn't that enough? These surgeries are empirically demonstrated to decreased psychiatric morbidity, they alleviate problems of depression and suicide which would cost the medical system money anyway.

And in Canada we should acknowledge that access to medical procedure should not be limited by economic status. Transsexuals face enough issues with accessibility by the very fact that it is incredibly difficult to find a doctor to deal with in the first place.

That's what I figured and if you're serious and responsible about it, you'd definitely seek professional help anyway as part of the process.

[BienvenuJDC]

That's what I figured and if you're serious and responsible about it, you'd definitely seek professional help anyway as part of the process.

And if anyone wanted to mutilate themselves like that, they should seek professional help. I agree with Darcy's comments.

[Varenne Rodin]

I worked as a personal assistant for a person who preferred to be thought of as a woman, and so I always respected that. She had very few friends, and no girlfriends to help her to feel like an authentic woman. She was also quite afraid of going out in public. I went shopping for her. I gave her hair and makeup tips. We talked about lots of stuff and I did normal assistant work for her like getting coffee and lunch and managing her appointments. It seemed to make her feel more normal to not be treated like a freak. I think that's the most important thing for people who aren't in the shoes of someone who has been through this to remember. Whatever personal opinions we may have, human beings have a right to outfit themselves as they see fit, and to augment their bodies. My personal opinion is that people are people, and I love all of them. :)

[JuniperWoolf]

Sorry, I missed this when I first posted in agreement with JBI.


What about people who were born intersex and had their pseudopenis altered into a vagina without their consent when they were a child. They should have a right to equal access to medical reconstruction of their genitals no matter their economic circumstances. Our medical system covers reconstruction of genitals, or really any part of the body, in cases of accidental injury. It covers normalizing surgeries to intersex genitalia as well. Why should a procedure, if deemed in consultation with a psychiatrist, as vital to an individual's psychological well being only be available to the rich?

I guess that's true. I learned in anatomy class that the parents decide which gender to alter their intersex child into when the kids are born, and they almost always make them female because the surgery is less risky and much easier. I guess if I was growing up with that knowledge and I identified myself as male I would be pretty bitter about it. It only makes sense that the government should have to pay to fix me, they're the ones who screwed me up in the first place.


But you can't just walk into a doctor's office and demand sex reassignment surgery (you can't do that with any kind of surgery covered by Medicare). You have to go through years of doctor appointments, isn't that enough?

I just realized this last night when I was laying in bed.


These surgeries are empirically demonstrated to decreased psychiatric morbidity, they alleviate problems of depression and suicide which would cost the medical system money anyway.

And in Canada we should acknowledge that access to medical procedure should not be limited by economic status. Transsexuals face enough issues with accessibility by the very fact that it is incredibly difficult to find a doctor to deal with in the first place.

Two more great points. Alright, I change my mind.

...Also, I'm sorry I haven't read more about this subject to have reached my own conclusions yet. I feel kind of bad about how ignorant I am regarding LGBT issues.


However, I think that we both can agree that women are quite desirable as they are. Let's not mess with perfection.

Speak for yourself.

http://www.thegoddessblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/eric-true-blood.jpg

Me-yow!

[Darcy88]

These condescending and misinformed attitudes towards transsexuals are bigoted. Can you not recognize how backhandedly condoning the economic exploitation of someone while simultaneously undermining the sincerity of their gender identity (by comparing it to cosmetic enhancements) is not giving your blessing.


Well I guess I'm bigoted for seeing something wrong in the act of a physically masculine individual having their penis surgically removed. I don't see how I am bigoted when I treat them as I would treat anyone else.

And I think the the procedure should be covered by the government if it must be done.

[JBI]

Why shouldn't it be covered?

What about people who were born intersex and had their pseudopenis altered into a vagina without their consent when they were a child. They should have a right to equal access to medical reconstruction of their genitals no matter their economic circumstances. Our medical system covers reconstruction of genitals, or really any part of the body, in cases of accidental injury. It covers normalizing surgeries to intersex genitalia as well. Why should a procedure, if deemed in consultation with a psychiatrist, as vital to an individual's psychological well being only be available to the rich?

These condescending and misinformed attitudes towards transsexuals are bigoted. Can you not recognize how backhandedly condoning the economic exploitation of someone while simultaneously undermining the sincerity of their gender identity (by comparing it to cosmetic enhancements) is not giving your blessing.



I gave a short response to this in my initial post. But these issues require a nuanced approach.

For one, a transgender person who does transition might not identify as male or female, they might identify as genderqueer. Thus, their genitals might have nothing to do with how they conceive of their gender identity.

More importantly you need to consider the social and practical limitations. They'd have to sacrifice sexual sensation and undergo the minor risk of the surgery. They have to consider whether changing their genitals will cause a partner to leave them. Transitioning might change the legal rights they have in certain states, such that a transgender person who has not had sex reassignment surgery may be able to marry their partner only under the condition that they do not transition. They might have financial limitations, the surgery is expensive, and so they simply can't afford to transition despite wanting to. They might not have access to the medical care where they live; access to medical professionals that handle transitioning is rare, for most people it requires travelling miles to a major city to get the procedure, and they might even be denied the right to get the procedure by the powers that be. They might not even be able to get the prescription for hormones and be buying them illegally.

Not to forget the social stigma against the surgery itself, just look to this itself for the reason why someone might fear getting the surgery.

Oh do not get me wrong, I want it accessible - if the profit margin is good, then people will pay it, and people will perform it, like anything else. Business is business and if there are enough people, then it will be readily available.

I once met a doctor who was doing hymen reconstruction for a living, implying he was making more money than ever to give people the illusion that they were virginal. That too has psychological implications, but I would not be caught dead forking over a cent to such procedures. I do not believe it is the tax payer's responsibility to fund gender transition, I believe it is the individuals. Do I think it should be made affordable? Of course. But I should not pay.

IT isn't cheap, it is not medically necessary. Nobody pays for my dental fee, unless I have private insurance. But you are suggesting a small minority in the population have expensive and difficult surgery paid for for reasons of cosmetics and personal choice. I say not on my dollar.


I think in our society we need to come to terms with different types of surgery. One that is medically necessary because the person will die, or can die, and one that is psychologically necessary, because the person is depressed. I do not think it particularly pressing to drop everything and pay for someone to transition, the same way I do not find it pressing to give a poor depressed girl or boy with no self-esteem a make-over, either cosmetically or surgically.

[KCurtis]

I am in full support of what anybody wishes to do to themselves. However, I do not want any of it paid for by me, the same way I do not need to be paying for breast implants, or penis enlargements.

If people want to identify in any way with any other gender, or partially, or whatever, I give them my blessing, let them be happy with it, and I hope doctors see the business opportunity to make a living off of it.

However, if you expect me to pay for it, well, that's a different story.

I agree with you, JBI. Wow, but I do. I don't think the public should have to pay for this. I also think I too have compassion for people, and can appreciate the torment some people go through regarding gender confusion and surgery such as this. It also makes me uncomfortable- but that's okay. I have met a few people in N.Y.C who were going through this in the '70's- although I don't recall if there was such surgery then, or if they were just taking hormones and other medication.


I would have had to switch pronouns mid-sentence. How insensitive of me to risk my neck sticking up for a transgender, not knowing if those guys were violent or what, and then fail to change pronouns here.



Good word that, "heteronormative." Never heard it before. And I see that I fit its definition to a t. Yes, I felt very heteronormative while I was fooling around with a guy two nights ago, very heteronormative indeed.

:smilielol5: You are funny and witty.
And have a right to your opinion, and whatever your opinion is, you stuck your neck out for another human being, regardless of what gender or sexual preference he was, because you are a decent person.

[Babyguile]

I like how OrphanPip assumes that we all need an education from her/him/it on gender identity disroders.

Also there's something about the language in OrphanPip's posts that stutters like and old engine in my head. I think he or she, or it (probably the more politicaly correct option) should use more effective language to get it's points across. I'm certainly not ignorant on the fact that growing up with gender identity disorder is totally disastrous to that person's well-being and self-esteem, but I don't think that offering those people hormones and gender reassignment surgeries should ever be considered at option, at least not until counselling and such has been exhausted.

I'm just very cynical of the people who declare their desire to have gender reassignment and of the private doctors who provide it to them.

[cafolini]

I worked as a personal assistant for a person who preferred to be thought of as a woman, and so I always respected that. She had very few friends, and no girlfriends to help her to feel like an authentic woman. She was also quite afraid of going out in public. I went shopping for her. I gave her hair and makeup tips. We talked about lots of stuff and I did normal assistant work for her like getting coffee and lunch and managing her appointments. It seemed to make her feel more normal to not be treated like a freak. I think that's the most important thing for people who aren't in the shoes of someone who has been through this to remember. Whatever personal opinions we may have, human beings have a right to outfit themselves as they see fit, and to augment their bodies. My personal opinion is that people are people, and I love all of them. :)

Only those who undestand that people have the right to adopt what they want will ever be happy and will love all people for what they are, except those who cannt be loved for what they are because they are criminals. There is a big difference between the two kinds. Good points.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Oh do not get me wrong, I want it accessible - if the profit margin is good, then people will pay it, and people will perform it, like anything else. Business is business and if there are enough people, then it will be readily available.

I once met a doctor who was doing hymen reconstruction for a living, implying he was making more money than ever to give people the illusion that they were virginal. That too has psychological implications, but I would not be caught dead forking over a cent to such procedures. I do not believe it is the tax payer's responsibility to fund gender transition, I believe it is the individuals. Do I think it should be made affordable? Of course. But I should not pay.

IT isn't cheap, it is not medically necessary. Nobody pays for my dental fee, unless I have private insurance. But you are suggesting a small minority in the population have expensive and difficult surgery paid for for reasons of cosmetics and personal choice. I say not on my dollar.


I think in our society we need to come to terms with different types of surgery. One that is medically necessary because the person will die, or can die, and one that is psychologically necessary, because the person is depressed. I do not think it particularly pressing to drop everything and pay for someone to transition, the same way I do not find it pressing to give a poor depressed girl or boy with no self-esteem a make-over, either cosmetically or surgically.
So, what about this: due to my condition, I have a narrowed esophagus due to scarring, and it makes it quite difficult to swallow food. Just last night it took me 90 minutes to eat a steak (it was worth it). I can, and do, have surgeries to open my esophagus every 4-6 months, and I can eat relatively normally for a while. I don't need this surgery to save my life (though it helps to simply get more calories), but it greatly improves my quality of life. Is that something you feel you should pay for? There are many, many surgeries like these, that aren't "life saving," but helpful.

I like how OrphanPip assumes that we all need an education from her/him/it on gender identity disroders.

Also there's something about the language in OrphanPip's posts that stutters like and old engine in my head. I think he or she, or it (probably the more politicaly correct option) should use more effective language to get it's points across. I'm certainly not ignorant on the fact that growing up with gender identity disorder is totally disastrous to that person's well-being and self-esteem, but I don't think that offering those people hormones and gender reassignment surgeries should ever be considered at option, at least not until counselling and such has been exhausted.

I'm just very cynical of the people who declare their desire to have gender reassignment and of the private doctors who provide it to them.
Write that down, everybody: don't ever try to educate TheDave on anything! It's the height of condescension.

[Scheherazade]

R e m i n d e r

Please discuss the topic, not each other.

Off-topic posts will be removed without further notice.

The OP:
What general viewpoints to lit-nutters have on partial gender transition? where a woman cross dresses and takes testosterone to assume the identity of a man but retains her reproductive organs because she/he wants to have a family at some stage?

I feel there is more hostility - a sort of 'you can't have your cake and it eat it too' attitude but I'm also curious whether lit-nutters general view might alter if it was a family member of theirs or wouldn't it make any difference?

[Darcy88]

You know what, if it makes them happy then I'm all for it. I just don't think I'd be able to stand it if my own child were to undergo the process. And that is the question which should really determine one's stance on the issue.

[Babyguile]

You know what, if it makes them happy then I'm all for it. I just don't think I'd be able to stand it if my own child were to undergo the process. And that is the question which should really determine one's stance on the issue.

They should learn to be happy with who they are.

[Darcy88]

They should learn to be happy with who they are.

Easy for us to say.

[Babyguile]

I learnt to.

[Darcy88]

I learnt to.

Are you saying that in the past you experienced a profound and persistent identification as a member of the opposite gender? If that's the case then I'd take seriously what you have to say. If not then neither of us can really know what its like to be in the shoes of such a person.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

TheDave obviously knows how everyone should feel about themselves better than anyone else.

[OrphanPip]

IT isn't cheap, it is not medically necessary. Nobody pays for my dental fee, unless I have private insurance. But you are suggesting a small minority in the population have expensive and difficult surgery paid for for reasons of cosmetics and personal choice. I say not on my dollar.


I think in our society we need to come to terms with different types of surgery. One that is medically necessary because the person will die, or can die, and one that is psychologically necessary, because the person is depressed. I do not think it particularly pressing to drop everything and pay for someone to transition, the same way I do not find it pressing to give a poor depressed girl or boy with no self-esteem a make-over, either cosmetically or surgically.

Like MM pointed out, we do not reserve treatment simply to life-saving procedures. The public health system provides innumerable services to improve quality of life. I also pointed out that the surgery does contribute to saving lives since it has been proven to lower psychological morbidity in people diagnosed with gender dissociative disorder.

Hell I had a 30k dollar plastic surgery to correct mild prognathism because it caused migraines, muscle pain, and would have caused early tooth lost. We don't tell old people who break their hips to just jump into wheelchairs do we? No we spend millions on giving them replacements because it improves their quality of life and in turn that contributes to prolonged lifetimes.


I like how OrphanPip assumes that we all need an education from her/him/it on gender identity disroders.

Also there's something about the language in OrphanPip's posts that stutters like and old engine in my head. I think he or she, or it (probably the more politicaly correct option) should use more effective language to get it's points across. I'm certainly not ignorant on the fact that growing up with gender identity disorder is totally disastrous to that person's well-being and self-esteem, but I don't think that offering those people hormones and gender reassignment surgeries should ever be considered at option, at least not until counselling and such has been exhausted.

I'm just very cynical of the people who declare their desire to have gender reassignment and of the private doctors who provide it to them.

I don't assume anything, everyone of my posts have been in direct response to questions or misconceptions raised by others. The opening post asked what I thought of why people might choose to partially transition, and I gave my reasons why. People raised objections to gender transition which I thought were not fully thought out or considerate of the issues at hand, so thus I responded to them.

Next time you have a problem with my opinions don't be a passive aggressive **** about it and just address the points.

And I am a cisgendered male. So, "it" is not the "politically correct" pronoun. In the future, those that identify with neutral pronouns use "they" since they are not objects.

[Darcy88]

Hell I had a 30k dollar plastic surgery to correct mild prognathism because it caused migraines, muscle pain, and would have caused early tooth lost. We don't tell old people who break their hips to just jump into wheelchairs do we? No we spend millions on giving them replacements because it improves their quality of life and in turn that contributes to prolonged lifetimes.


That **** causes migraines! I have that. I've suffered headaches most of my life and doctor after doctor hasn't been able to figure out any cause or cure. I'm going to check this out. If this fixes my problems I'll pay for an air-plane to fly low in the sky over Montreal pulling a great sign reading "OrphanPip is a god."

[qimissung]

Well, I'm late to the party as usual. I enjoyed reading this thread for once, and was glad to see that most people were relatively sensitive concerning the issues and the humanity of the people involved.

I'm, in general, in favor of supporting people in their endeavors to discover who they are and how they want to live.

Every few years I have a student, generally male, who wants to be a female, or at least who would perfer to appear female. It has never been a problem for me or for my students. I think the administration has some concerns about it, but it generally relates to behavior issues.

Interestingly, about seven years ago I had a student, a guy, we'll call him Little Cat A, who always dressed in girl's clothes. No prob. He was an off again, on again student and he didn't quite manage to graduate. Then a couple of years ago I had another student, another guy, who preferred to dress as a girl. Brilliant kid, terrible student. We'll call him Little Cat B.

So we come to last year; Little Cat A is back, Little Cat B is a senior (well, they both were at this point). A started out the year dressing as a guy, but about mid-way through the first semester he began dressing as a female. One of the administrators mentioned that he did it in response to Little Cat B, like they were in a competition with each other. I had not noticed that. Little Cat B wanted to run for Homecoming Queen that year, which I thought was cool. The principal talked him out of it and suggested that perhaps he could run for Prom Queen. I don't think he did, though. It made the local news at the time.

What I did notice, out of all of this, was that Little Cat B managed to graduate, but Little Cat A dropped out, again.

[cacian]

What general viewpoints to lit-nutters have on partial gender transition? where a woman cross dresses and takes testosterone to assume the identity of a man but retains her reproductive organs because she/he wants to have a family at some stage?

I feel there is more hostility - a sort of 'you can't have your cake and it eat it too' attitude but I'm also curious whether lit-nutters general view might alter if it was a family member of theirs or wouldn't it make any difference?

Hi Delta4o I think it a very good idea.
You can have your cake and eat it too.
It makes more sense to keep all your organs and dress up the way you wish to because one feels more of a gender then the other.
Society needs to move on in terms of people's choices and freedom.
I do not see why it should be anyone's problem on another person's wishes and choices.
Great topic by the way!:thumbs_up

[Buh4Bee]

Well, I'm late to the party as usual. I enjoyed reading this thread for once, and was glad to see that most people were relatively sensitive concerning the issues and the humanity of the people involved.

I'm, in general, in favor of supporting people in their endeavors to discover who they are and how they want to live.



I think this is what it is all about. If it is right, and it makes the person feel functional than that's all that matters, in my mind. This sort of thing is controversial to many people, and the individual has to be strong enough to handle being judged by society. This means the individual most accept their inner being and be at peace with who they are.

[Darcy88]

(CNN) -- A Canadian beauty pageant contestant who was disqualified when the Miss Universe Canada organizers discovered she was transgender is not ready to speak to reporters, a representative for the 6-foot-1-inch-tall blond model said Tuesday.

Jenna Talackova was one of the 65 finalists selected to contend for the title of Miss Universe Canada and the honor of representing her country in the Miss Universe competition, but she will not be allowed to compete because organizers say Talackova lied about having undergone sexual reassignment surgery and did not meet requirements for the pageant.

"As with any competition, the Miss Universe pageant has rules which apply to all of its franchises around the world. Such rules include, but are not limited to, citizenship, age, and marital status requirements. Additionally, the rules currently state that all contestants must be naturally born females," the Miss Universe Organization said.

Those rules are not mentioned on the Miss Universe website.

Rory Richards, a spokeswoman for the 23-year-old Vancouver resident, said Talackova will not be able to talk to reporters pending possible legal action.

"Jenna is overwhelmed, and deeply moved, by the support she has received from around the globe, but especially from fellow Canadians that have said how proud they would be if she represented Canada in the Miss Universe pageant," Richards wrote in an e-mail to CNN on Tuesday.
Dayana Mendoza on transgender beauty

Before falling out of the public eye, Talackova took to the social networking site Twitter, implying she felt the actions of Miss Universe were the result of prejudice.

"I'm not going to just let them disqualify me over discrimination," she tweeted, ""I'm not giving up."

Michael Cole-Schwartz, spokesman for the LGBT advocacy group Human Rights Campaign, called the decision unfair and unnecessary. "Jenna is a woman," he said. "She presents as a woman, she lives as a woman, and that's all that matters."

"Any term that separates her from any other woman is demeaning," he continued.

He isn't alone in his support for Talackova. The Facebook page of Miss Universe Canada is full of comments criticizing the pageant's decision.
"Perhaps you're unaware that the Ontario Human Rights Code prohibits discrimination based on gender identity," wrote one Facebook user. "If your requirement is that only women who were born in the right body can compete, then you should probably change the requirements," posted another.

The controversy has prompted a petition on the social change website Chang.org, which has nearly 32,000 signatures. The petition prompts Beauties of Canada, the company that runs Miss Universe Canada, and Donald Trump, who owns the Miss Universe competition, to reverse the decision.

In a 2010 interview in Thailand, where she was competing for Miss International Queen, a competition for transgender women, Talackova said she knew she was a girl at age 4. She said she started hormone therapy at age 14 and underwent sexual reassignment surgery at 19.

I think that's whack. Let her compete. I wish the fact of her being transgender had come out after the pageant was held televised, after all the closed-minded persons out there had drooled at the sight of her in a bathing suit. That would have been awesome.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Yes, god forbid the sanctity of the beauty pageant be sullied.

[Darcy88]

Beauty pageants rank right up there with gladiatorial games and auto-racing at the pinnacle of absurd human spectatorial activities. For an hour once a year on the night of the Miss Universe Pageant every couch-ensconced joe schmo can fancy himself a great king selecting beauties from his own vicarious harem stocked bountifully as a trout pond.

[OrphanPip]

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jenna-talackova3.jpg

She looks like a woman to me.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jenna-talackova3.jpg

She looks like a woman to me.

Her body does. Severe case of butterface syndrome.

[OrphanPip]

Idk her face looks fairly ordinary to me.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/6356847.bin

Probably has cheek implants though.

[Darcy88]

Looks Asian. The first pic you posted Pip did not show well her face. Every heterosexual man in this forum would jump on that if they did not know she didn't always look like that. Given enough alcohol and even with that revelation they'd all be hittin that like they're Babe Ruth. Sober and kept confidential 80-100 percent still would.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Her face looks artificial. I hate that look.

And, even though I know she is/was a man, I'd still consider hitting it. I'm pretty hard-up for it, though.